Verkada: "IPVM Should Never Be Your Source of News"
By John Honovich, Published Jul 02, 2020, 12:14pm EDTVerkada was unhappy with IPVM's recent coverage declaring that reading IPVM is 'not a good look' and that 'IPVM should never be your source of news'.
Later, Verkada told IPVM that the comments Verkada posted did not align with how Verkada views IPVM.
However, Verkada's comments absolutely align with the fundamental problems Verkada has.
Access Control Debate
While access control is typically a quiet domain, Verkada's entrance caused some controversy. First, Verkada falsely claimed to be the "First Native Cloud-based Access Control and Video Security Solution" despite numerous incumbents already offering this. Such clearly wrong claims are rare for most but not Verkada.
Then IPVM criticized Verkada's access control system for only supporting Wiegand and not the newer, now fairly broadly supported OSDP.
'Not A Good Look'
Verkada quickly slapped down Jacob Hengel, the CTO of YourSix, telling him that 'IPVM being your source of news is not a good look':
While Verkada employees are seemingly proud of not knowing much of the industry they are in, the retort that 'everyone uses Wiegand' is particularly odd. One, it's obviously false, higher-end manufacturers and deployments increasingly use OSDP and, two, with that 'everydoes does' logic runs counter to Verkada's own core messaging that Verkada is somehow newer and better.
As for us researching the product, we asked and received input from Verkada's VP of Product who confirmed the lack of OSDP, saying that Verkada might add it "in the future based on customer demand." After IPVM complained publicly about the lack of support, Verkada now says they "expect to roll out support for 3rd party OSDP readers over the next 3-4 months."
Despite Verkada's dismissal, Hengel persisted, saying:
Verkada was unperturbed declaring that "IPVM should never be your source of news" and that Wiegand is 'not actually a problem':
Wiegand, it's actually a problem.
Bigger Problem Verkada Ongoing False Claims
The bigger problem, though, is Verkada's ongoing false claims. For example, Verkada recently claimed to manufacture its cameras in the USA:
This is false. Vivotek contract manufacturers for Verkada in Taiwan. And this is concerning because misrepresenting manufacturing in the USA is a legal issue. After we brought this to Verkada's attention, they edited the comment.
Other examples of Verkada false claims include:
- Verkada Salesman Falsely Alleges Competitor Bankruptcy
- Verkada False Allegations Against Avigilon Exposed
- False Verkada 'Unrivaled' Low Light Performance Claim Removed
Verkada Response
Verkada responded to Verkada's Facebook posts saying:
Many of us are avid IPVM readers. The comment you shared does not align with how we view IPVM. We have enjoyed all of our discussions with the IPVM team to date and look forward to working with you in the future.
IPVM Used to Manufacturer Attacks
For us, it is not a big deal and comes with the territory. For example, 3 years ago, China government-owned Hikvision said we were cyberbullying them and were destined to fail:
Now, US Silicon Valley mega-funded startup Verkada rips into us.
Verkada should mature, be more careful about saying false things, and then they surely will get more positive (or at least less negative) coverage from us and others.
Poll / Vote
Comments (153)
There's a poll option missing: "4. I trust Hikuawei over Verkada"
Looks like they're letting the aggressive (and inexperienced) salespeople control their public accounts. It's bold, but not necessarily a good idea. Now it looks like the company has a split personality, being extremely dismissive vs being respectful. They need to have a unified voice, and that comes from limiting who can post (hopefully to people who know what they're doing).
I work for a company that could be considered a Verkada competitor. However, I will try to be as professionally unbiased as possible. That being said, I feel very personally biased against Verkada.
These guys are taking the standard Silicon Valley approach of "throw a bunch of crap on the wall and see what sticks" to physical security. They have some fancy marketing and honestly some decent features. The problem is that since they don't have knowledge of the industry they often have misleading messaging. That coupled with their high visibility results in a lot of mislead customers.
If your company is building an app to find the lowest fare on airplane tickets, or allow someone to order food to be delivered - this approach is maybe fine. You can fix the bugs as you go. However, if you're building life safety equipment - especially access control, that approach is simply irresponsible.
Verkada June 2020: OSDP - Nobody wants it!
Verkada July 2020: OSDP - We gots it!
Undisclosed Mfg 3 is just as terrified as the rest of us, is as terrified as the IPVM cavalcade, that Verkada signifies the end of an era; Verkada is to CCTV what SimpliSafe is to the alarm industry, and as the local hypocrite who fired my Alarm.com guy for a $99 Black Friday deal from SimpliSafe, yeah, solid mark of approval there too. Fat cats of the industry, bloated on six-figure salaries cushioned by sizable commissions backed by ample expense accounts, be warned: the millennial-driven Verkada reckoning is nigh; they’re lean, they’re agile, and they can talk.
The grim reality, Verkada works. I’m qualified in saying that as one of the few who has exploited Verkada’s mindlessly simple demo hardware program, a demo program that leaves one asking “Now remind me again why I’m telling people not to buy this?” Granted, as someone who sells against Verkada CONSTANTLY, this also means I know how to exploit their hardware/software weaknesses, but they’re few. IPVM is doing a disservice to their subscriber collective by not focusing on the numerous competencies Verkada is touting, and honestly, I’m appalled IPVM hasn’t made further efforts to embrace this 900lb mustached Tesla-driving 30-something gorilla parked in the corner of the room, pinky up, sipping an espresso and listening to the White Stripes.
Like it or not, Verkada is where we’re headed. High time manufacturers and IPVM alike give them a good hard look and second-guess their roadmaps. In the meantime, Verkada’s number one weakness is their leadership, both those currently in the field, and those flagrantly posting contrasting opinions all over social media.
My main thing - their technology is great. People are lying if they dispute that. Verkada's platform is modern, fluid, and capable. I really want to like and respect them in general as a peer in the industry. The vendor lock-in thing is a bit insane, but that's a business decision they made and they don't lie about it. Sure - they will sell against it being a big deal, but fine - there is no deception here.
Unfortunately, the marketing is always dishonest (at best). Why lean on dishonest marketing if you have solid tech? There is no reason for it. This comes back to a leadership problem at its core. Verkada has been in the game long enough to have overcome these hurdles by now.
My recommendation to leadership and venture capital:
Fix the brand. The image is critical and Verkada must get control over who has access to social media accounts, is allowed to respond to the press, etc. Focus on improving honesty through-out the sales and marketing teams. Invest in training so that sales reps and marketing professionals are being truthful in the messages delivered. Force your product management team to learn the industry so that releases don't flub on things like OSDP and the messaging around this stuff.
If they can't get control over these things, Sequoia needs to make some heads roll from the top down.
90% not very....LOL
do Glengarry Glen Ross/Boiler Room/Wolf of Wall Street style companies ever 'mature' into anything else?
I don't think this blitzkrieg sales method is designed to mature.
In fairness, it's refreshing to know that it's not just the Chinese cornering the market in shady marketing...
So someone please explain to me why this isn't just Eagle Eye for snowflakes?
I really don't get the Verkada hype for installers but I see how clients get interested based on the BS their sales team pitches. Pretty much every current manufacture has a broader camera line with better low light and WDR. Not to mention Veraka compresses the video more. Yes, the interface looks "cool" but it's missing lots of features of other VMS's have had for a while.
I glanced at their website.
Now my LinkedIn feed is getting smashed with ads for them.
I wish some investment banker bros would give me that kind of marketing budget.
As a potential customer, Verkada, Meraki, & Rhombus are appealing offerings. The lock-in is not a problem for some. I actually prefer it.
For us, buying a system that will require minimal maintenance, patching, or patch-working of vendors is a big draw. I'd prefer not manage the lifecycle & security of: cameras, storage, compute, VMS software, network access, etc. Having all of these essentially "managed" is really an attractive quality for some.
I'm willing to spend more money to have the freedom from not running firmware updates on cameras, or replacing HDDs in an NVR, or upgrade to the latest VMS (or the underlying OS, or firmware for that server, or the storage system, etc).
Some of us don't live security cameras- it may not be our core business, and the three vendors above allow us customers to have cameras, but to worry much less about them.
But at what cost:As for cost, yes, it's likely Verkada is highest priced of these three vendors and may even cost more than virtually any other system over the long haul. How much more? I wish I knew, and sometimes, I just don't care. If it's in the budget, and the product fits the requirements, then shouldn't I be focused on the 98% of my other duties and not worry about it so much?
If we buy one of the above three, and pay for cameras, installation, and licensing upfront for the expected, warrantied & deployed life of the cameras, what costs are we missing? Self patching (check) new features that continually get added (check) vendor that has recurring revenue to develop a product & add features, and shouldn't have trouble staying afloat (check) Support when we need it (Check).
This model has worked well for Meraki with network equipment, so why not for cameras? Ring Central - they are killing off the "Dinosaurs" of legacy PBX companies left and right, and it seems to be working just fine. Sure, you probably give up some features from a 15-year old Legacy PBX, but did you really need or use all them? Not every customer does. You also get something managed, updated, fresh, and financially sustainable.
My point here is - it's really easy to pick on these three vendors (Especially Verkada for how ruthless their sales team is), but is it possible they are all valid, suitable, preferred solutions for some customers?
If the solution meets a customer requirements, I don't see a problem with this model I guess. I think part of the problem is, many people view buying cameras as a lifetime investment, or a monthly/annual cost - I don't. For me, it's a one-time cost for a fixed term (5-10 years) and then I refresh. I mean, when you buy a copier for your work, do you think "but what will this be like 30 years from now?", I sure don't - we refresh copiers every 5 years like clockwork when a lease runs out.
How long should one really keep all their cameras in service? For me, that number is probably ~10 years, at which point, our needs may have changed. Our buildings will be renovated. Our requirements will change. The tech for sure will have changed (we'll have 64K cameras or something ridiculous like that). Sure, we have some locations that could probably get by with older camera tech just fine, but if we can afford it, why not upgrade everything on a set lifecycle?
Verkada: A ton of marketing money. Relentless sales team of good looking silicon valley duchetard mimbos. Some solid features (person & face detection work quite well). More features like license plate reading coming. Lots of bugs. Lots of buffering is a pain for sure. Image quality not anything to write home about. Somewhat clunky web interface, but some areas make it very fast to focus on what matters (i.e finding a person entering a building). Few controls a user can adjust like WDR (but support can and will adjust for you). Good financial health, they'll be here tomorrow, I'd take that bet anytime.
Meraki: Meraki won't go anywhere - but who knows, they may drop video (they did it with phones, so it's not unheard of). Meraki's approach to not building new camera features, and instead focusing on APIs to let 3rd parties innovate for them (i.e. face detection, license plate reading, etc), leaves the customer holding the bag to tie 3rd party systems together in a clunky way, at their own expense. Fold in a mobile app that has not been updated in 2+ years, and totally blows to begin with, and it's hard to get jazzed up about Meraki. Sure, their dewarp functionality is slick, and yes, they have a beta mobile app, so I guess there is hope? But to let their product fall so far behind doesn't inspire confidence in the future. RTSP support is nice, and the others should add this. Backed by Cisco's focus on network security is a bonus. A single pane of glass for network & cameras is nice, but do we really care, nope. I feel like if Verkada didn't exist, Meraki wouldn't innovate their cameras at all -so if anything, thank Verkada for that I guess?
Rhombus: If they got acquired or went bust in a few years, I wouldn't be surprised. If you've been on a demo and seen their sad, sad office, you know what I mean. They clearly are not as well funded as the other two, and yet, their product is pretty alright. A lot of features, a nicely designed interface that all works fairly well. Cheaper than the other two guys by far. Their face detection blows compared to Verkada, and the concept of "licensing" every feature (even though it's allegedly included for free) is bonkers. I have a feeling every time a customer licenses a feature, they have to pay some 3rd party for API calls or something, so they are trying to limit utilization to save money and stay in business? They seem like a great option, but I wouldn't want to be locked into them if their financial health wasn't proven stable.
So with all that in mind, out of the three, which would you pick & why?
Is there a chance that such a "bad marketing" is actually an intentional one? Could it happen some companies have embraced and adopted it as their viable marketing strategy being fully aware and comfortable with consequences?
I'm just thinking out loud, of course. It definitely brings PR and brand awareness (might be negative but still...), and these are not the KSPs to be ignored. Could it be perceived as an easier task for a sales rep to just counter all negative buzz around the "bad marketing" as a BS being face to face with a prospect? It works for Verkada and some others so far...
Never came across to them in Germany... Anyway, there is a simpe rule: If a manufacturer complains about IPVM, avoid them. There is a reason for it.
I am looking forward to Vaion's cloud cameras. If they market things correctly they will give Verkada a run for their money. Want cloud only cameras? Vaion will be able to do it. Have a large site with current cameras? Drop in a Vaion server and record the current cameras. Have many sites and need a mix of servers and cloud cameras? You can mix and match server and cloud cameras and mange everything in the same interface. Best of both worlds.
if OSDP, why not ONVIF?
Question for Verkada.... If not Ipvm, who should you go to your news and testing, etc.?
The trade mags are.... Trade mags.
You can learn a 2 minute snippet or learn about one manufacturers approach to something, but consumer reports doesn't handle our industry.
There are no peer reviewed journals for our industry... There are no independent magazines. Name one other source that isn't dedicated to consumer cams or resi trunk slamers usin grey market products and 3rd tier generic cams..
Everything I've seen from Verkada gives me the feeling that they don't have a single person in the company who has done an access control install. They assume AC is as easy as swapping some IP cameras. They are dead wrong about that and it'll be there down fall. Who is going to do their installs? Are they selling direct, or trying to attract dealers? Does anyone know anything about their go-to-market other than sending free Yetis out?
seems that a lot of credible people are paying for, and feeling pretty comfortable with their "not good look".
I trust their Yetti...
IPVM has a proven track record of being accurate, well written and fair. Thank-you for the suggestion Verkada, but I will pass.
In my lone dealing with Verkada the sales person misrepresented her relationship with the end-user which i found odd as the end-user had asked us to test their cameras. During the testing process I discovered that their sales team had an elementary understanding of video and were unprepared to answer simple questions. During the actual testing, Verkada performed poorly, ultimately leading their engineers to admit to several faults within the image.
Weeks later, IPVM released test results validating our findings.
I work for a major manufacturer. If IPVM calls us out on a product or marketing mistake we will listen and learn. (We know sometimes we F up) If we disagree with the assessment we will data to back up our disagreement but telling people to not listen because you don't like the message is a bad policy to have.
The claim that they have extensive backgrounds in cybersecurity and claim there are no real problems with weigand in the same sentence is a huge discredit to the company.
Honestly, these sort of companies terrifies me, considering the latest twitter "hacks" (there's been a fair few "cloud" hacks in recent years, all it takes is one support person to be compromised and they have unfettered access to the whole system.
At least on-prem you control, at least to some degree your own fate:)