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- ****** ******* ***********
- ******** & ******** **** *** ***** to **** ********
- ******** ******** & ******** *******
- ** **** *** *** ******** & integrators ** ****** ***** ******** *******
- ************* ** **** ******* ********
**** ** *** ****** ******** **** rely ** ***** **** & ***** control ** *** ****** *******:
- ****** / ******* *********
- ****** ************* **** ***** *******
- ***** *********** *** / ******* *** Apple ** ***********
- ***** ****-********
****** ********* *** ******** *** ********* for ***** ****** ******:
*** ***** ****** ** ******* **** developed ** **** **** *** ****** cloud ** ******* * ************ ******** that ** **** **** ** *******, configure, *** ******. **** ** ******** with ** ********, *******, ** ******** beyond *** ****** ****** *** ** the ***-**-*** *********** ** *** ** camera **** *** ****** *****. **** means ** ** *** ******* *** party ***** ******* ********* **** ** ONVIF, ** ******* ******** ***** ******* such ** ****. ******* ** ** provide * **** ******* *** ** standards ***** **** (***** **** *** MQTT) *** ********* ** ********* ***** MV ****** ******* **** ***** ******** systems, *** ******* ****** *******, ****, 3rd ***** *********, *** ******** *******. Some ******* ************* *** ** ***** here: *****://******.******.**/*****/**-*****-*************/
********* **** **** ** **** ******** 3rd ***** *** ******* ******* ********* such ** ***** ******* *********, *** resulting ********** ** ***** **** ********, more ********* ** *******, *** ******* the ***** ******** ********* **** * single ****** ******. ********* **** ********* that *** ********** ** *** ***** system ******* ** **** ***-****** ******* e.g. ****** ******* & ****. **** are ******* ** ****** ******* **** only **** **** *** ****** ************** IF ** ******* **** *** *********** with ***** *******. ***** ** **** feedback, **** ** ***** ** **** focused *** *********** *********.
Mixed ******** ******
***** ***** *** ********* ******** ** using *** **** ******** *** ** cameras *** ***, ********* ************ ***** surveillance ********* ***** ****, **** **, they **** ******* ** '***-**-*** ********', pitching *** ******** (**** ******* ** Meraki *** *******) *** **** **** allow *** **** *** ****** ** use *** ***** *******. ** ****, even *** ****** *** *******, **** is *** ******** *********. **** ***** readily ***** *********** ** **** *****.
Cons ** *** ****** *** ******* ********
**** ** **** ****** ******** *******:
- ****** *** ***** *******: *** **** does ****** *** ******* *** ***** their ******* ** **** ** *** party *******, *** *** ***** ******* also ****** **** ** ***** ******. This ****** ****** ** **** * few ****** **** ***** ********* **** unless **** **** ** *** * separate *******, *** *** *** **** cameras *** *** *** *** ****** Meraki ** ******* ****.
- ********* *** ** ******** ******** **** these ********* ** *** *******: ******* the ******* *** ******, *** **** has ** *** ** *** ** those ***************, ******* ******** *** ***** cameras.
- ******** **** *** *******: ** ****** or ******* **** ******** **** ***** service, ****** ** ***** ** ***********, accessibility ** *** ********, *** ****'* only ******** ** ** ***** ***** cameras **** *** *** *** **** if **** **** ** *** * different ****** ** *******.
- ******* ** *** *************** ** ***** providers: **** *** **** *** *****, these ********* *** ** *** *** develop ** *** **** **** ** competitors. ** **** ** ***, *** user ****** ****** ** ******* ******** unless **** ***** *** ******* ****.
- ******* **** *** ******* ***** *** of ********: ******* ** * ******* and ******** **** * **** **** of *******. ***** ** ******* ***** to ** *** ** ********, ** is ****** ************* * **** ****.
Business ******** ** ****** *** *******
*** **** ******** ******* ** **** essentially ******* ***** ********* *** ******* payments **** ********* *** **** ***** to **** (** *** ****** ***** the ******* **** ******). **** ********* profits *** *** *******'* *********. *** a ******** ** ******, **** ***** have ** *** *** *** ********* versus **** ****** *** ******* ******* for *** ******* *******. ** ****** and ******* ***** ** **** ****** (like ***** ** ****), *** ******** could **** ***** ****** *** ****** connect ** ******* ******* ** ******.
Business ******** ** ****** *** *******
** ********* *** ***** ** **** prior ** ******, ** *** ***** them ** ****** *********** **** **** them *** ****** ** ***** *** party *******. *** ******** **** ** that ****** *** ******* *** **** sales *** ********* **** ** *** want ** ** ****** **.
Vote / ****

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** ******* ****** *** ******* **** try ** **** ** ******** ** not ***** *** ***** ******* ***** the ******** ******** *** ****. ** do *** **** ** **** **** ever ***** ** **** ****** *** we ** ***** **** **** **** receive ***** ******** **** ************ ************ buyers *** ********* *** ***** ** having ** **** ****** *** ****** to ** ****** **.
Comments (82)
Michael Miller
One other point both company's push hard is no single point of failure yet if the WAN connection goes down or your router dies your system will still record but have no access to the video. Verkada says they are working on this but I think a lot of people overlook this issue major issue with cloud systems.
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
I'm receiving an obnoxious amount advertising on ALL of my social media profiles from Verkada, which seems an odd approach to direct marketing. LinkedIn makes sense but I see little value from marketing on Facebook and I cannot imagine a scenario in which someone would be motivated to buy a commercial security camera through Instagram. It would appear the silicon valley outsider misunderstands who and how buying decisions are influenced in this market.
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Undisclosed #2
This is lock-in at a whole different level.
Imagine buying a car that would stop running because the company that made it went bankrupt.
I don’t think they will have success in the bigger commercial market with this approach.
Instead, they should not sell cameras/hardware, but only lease them.
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Abdelhamid Metwally
Meraki's camera models are fairly limited and currently don't comply with local regulations in much of the Arab Gulf region. Many Meraki network customers may not necessarily want their cameras.
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Sean Patton
The report has been updated with Meraki's response explaining the benefits and reasoning for their closed design:
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Dave Arnould
Currently testing their D50 model and its slick technology with easy setup and convenient access. It will be hard for them to break into organizations with out having 3rd party support. No company will be removing their extensive camera network to install a new trend.
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
I've been told from integrators that Miraki will give away cameras (not just a few demos, but outfit entire schools) to school districts if they buy all their switches/servers/services, etc.
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Gerald Becker
Both of these companies are having large success in the Education space. I have seen both of them at Education related shows and they are just slaying it. I see they have an easy and understandable story to digest for school IT. The broader market is highly questionable what long term impact they will have. I completely agree that there has to be a path to integration with 3rd party systems at some point....maybe even developing a line that caters to 3rd party integrations and one line that is closed ecosystem.
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Undisclosed #2
You can buy these cameras all day but they still “own” them...
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Tommaso Bon
01/21/19 08:11am
For Meraki cameras are only an accessory to their systems. Their business model is strongly aimed to retail or multisite and based mainly on network switch, access point and firewall managed by their platform. Of course a camera can be an easy upselling for retail, using an already present (and well performing) cloud management platform.
But, being an accessory, can be removed from lineup easily. I would not build my surveillance system (that usually has a lifespan of many years) on a network vendor that sells cameras...
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Undisclosed #5
Meraki has been very successful with this model in IT, enough to be bought by Cisco and are now the primary driver of Cisco’s earnings growth (per the new CEO in an interview last week). It’s just so darn easy to set up and admin, and it works very well.
We’re used to having recurring licenses in our industry (Genetec, etc) and this is similar. I don’t like it but if it makes sense for the purchasing organization they will buy it, as they do now with the IT gear.
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J Robert Burgoyne
01/21/19 03:17pm
Some background before I get to the Meraki cameras: I'm an IT person biased toward open-source solutions, working professionally with open-source going back to the 1990s. My degree is in Physics and I have a photography hobby. I spend a lot of money and time on photography, so my expectations for what the IP cameras should do is very high, no doubt beyond what many IPVM customers or integrators need or think about.
I came to IPVM because of IPVM's transition to Ethernet cameras. I was introduced to Panasonic network cameras that a nearby church wanted to make work ~10 years ago. We eventually installed several of those Panasonic cameras and they worked well for many years.
I'm going to explain why we now use Meraki network infrastructure to give context at the end to how I view the Meraki cameras. BTW, we fully embrace PoE Ethernet switches and Axis cameras.
About 5 years ago, a professional associate introduced me to Meraki Security Appliances (routers) when they first came out and our company gradually started using them. Now, we're pretty much all-in with Meraki Security Appliances, because they work well and they incorporate Cisco's most advanced IT security research (Cisco Talos) in the Meraki "Advanced Security" license for their routers. Yes, it's an annual license with high RMR to Cisco, but the tradeoff is fair, in our opinion, because of how much work you're able to leverage on the security research and implementation side by Cisco.
Network security and integrity is only as good as its Security Appliance and the people who manage the Security Appliance. If you have the world's greatest IPVM installation on a LAN that doesn't have an enterprise grade Security Appliance with up-to-date threat intelligence, analytics, and hands-free remediation capabilities, you're leaving an attack surface that may not properly notify you of an intrusion into the network or data exfiltration. Witness the OPM Data Breach, where my own OPM records along with 21.5 million other American's records were stolen. At this point there have been so many significant data breaches that everyone should be concerned about the entry/exit points to the LANs where we do our work. Meraki is top-notch here, and if setup properly, Meraki Security Appliances could have prevented or informed about several of the largest data breaches. Security rules get updated daily, and firmware usually gets updated twice a year. So two thumbs up on all the Meraki Security Appliances. The Meraki Security Appliances beyond the least expensive models are manufactured in Taiwan.
The next Meraki item that works really well are their Wireless Access Points (WAPs). Competitors have lower cost products, but those lower costs products are mostly manufactured in China. The Meraki WAPs cost a lot up front but regular firmware updates keep them up-to-date, and the recurring monthly fee for the WAPs is much lower than with the RMR for the Security Appliances. The Meraki Wireless Access Points are manufactured in Taiwan.
The Meraki switches are where you must make a decision to really embrace the Cisco Meraki philosophy, because Ethernet switches that cost 1/5 what the Cisco Meraki Switches cost generally work OK, although there are no analytics on low end switches, and if a low-end switch or one of its devices fails, you can spend hours trying to figure out what's wrong. For Meraki switches, you'll likely be notified by email in real time when something goes wrong and the analytics direct you to the exact problem and the location of the problem. There's no way to deliver this level of functionality and not have RMR, and we've used a lot of open-source software for a long time. As with the WAPs, the recurring monthly for Meraki switches is much lower than with the Security Appliances. The Meraki Wireless Access Points are manufactured in Taiwan.
That brings us to Meraki cameras and Meraki's now discontinued VoIP phones. Cisco is a company that has grown through many acquisitions by moving fast wherever it sees an opportunity. Sometimes they hit a home run on a new acquisition, and sometimes they decide after 10 years to let an acquisition go - Linksys. During Cisco's evolution, the payment models for customers has shifted from:
Pay a lot up-front, with the vendor even making money on financing the purchase cost
Pay less up-front, but pay an annual license fee to the vendor
Pay much less up-front, but pay a recurring perpetual license fee to the vendor
We've seen Microsoft embrace this payment model too, and Wall Street's opinion is that in a tech environment that's highly deflationary, the third option is the best way to try to maintain high public market value. Office 365 is a good example where there is more value delivered via the third option, so the transition has been successful. WeWork is an extreme example of the third option.
When I realized that the Panasonic IP cameras weren't going to take me where I wanted, I asked an ISC East vendor which camera line could I embrace and not have to change from a few years down the road. After asking me a few questions, he told me Axis, and I've stuck with Axis, and am pleased that they were acquired by Canon due to my photography side. Since an Axis camera is basically an open-source server, I am able to email camera images in near real time, and to archive Axis camera images regularly using all our open-source infrastructure. We haven't yet had a need to use commercial image logging and cataloging software, but if we get to that point, I'd still try to incorporate as much open-source technology into that project as possible (FreeNAS for network storage). The last Axis outdoor camera that I bought, an AXIS P3364-L outdoor dome, cost $855 in Nov, 2016. It's PoE powered by a switch that's 100 feet away, it works great, and there is no recurring fee. The camera was made in Poland.
If we wanted to setup an AXIS camera with SSL encryption to the offsite storage, we could do that for a new installation with a bit of work. But if you have a lightweight Meraki Security Appliance like the Z1 at the remote site with the AXIS cameras, and a separate Meraki Security Appliance where you're trying to view the camera from, there is de facto end-to-end encryption over a VPN tunnel, without having to do much in the way of configuration or setup. That's a huge win for ongoing maintenance and remote troubleshooting. So don't write out Meraki Security Appliances just because you don't like the RMR model for their network cameras.
In terms of addressable markets, I've noticed that Meraki often mentions the Educational and Retail markets, neither of which I'm engaged in. Educational IT seems to be a bit of an island, different than corporate IT, until you get to larger colleges, where they have full-time staff that negates the need for a consultant. Smaller educational institutions probably welcome the empowerment that the Meraki infrastructure gives their staff, who are less technical than IPVM readers.
Someone mentioned the need for a persistent WAN connection. Anyone in the USA with a business or school that does not have a persistent WAN is at a huge disadvantage. To the extent that schools still exist without persistent broadband WAN connections, I suggest people push those schools to correct this deficiency. Any modern school library must have Internet access, and non-VoIP phone systems are disappearing, and within a few years there will be zero support for non-VoIP phone systems.
On the other hand, we do business with a large publicly traded multinational enterprise ISP, Cogent Communications, and they're almost 100% Cisco enterprise network infrastructure (different from Meraki) and 100% fiber optic connectivity. This is the future - cheap, persistent, robust bandwidth delivered over fiber optic cable. I suggest people migrate toward this mindset of cheap, persistent, robust bandwidth and build your business on that premise.
Sorry for the length of this post, hopefully there's some useful info here for at least some of you.
--
J Robert Burgoyne in NYC
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Undisclosed Integrator #6
Is Alarm.com video offering the same 'locked in' model? What happens to cameras and stored video for any of these services, if you decide you want to switch to different platform or way of managing cameras? Can the cameras be re-used? Not very clear
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Michael Murphy
I strongly resist ANY product that stops working due to mandatory monthly or yearly fees. Also, I'm not a fan of running many high megapixel cameras over the internet. Too much reliance on the 'pipe' and it's throughput. When it comes to video surveillance, I'll stick with a rock-solid LAN installation any day. If my client's internet goes down for several hours and they can't view their cameras with their mobile phone... no big deal. Their system keeps humming along and no important/critical INCIDENT is missed.
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J Robert Burgoyne
01/21/19 10:04pm
I agree with David that convenience and simplification generally win in the marketplace. We can lament that this is happening or accept it, try to leverage the principle, and move on.
Michael, circa 2019, unless a facility is critical infrastructure such as a power plant or national defense facility, the facility is not likely to a) be manned 24x7 with someone who watches the LAN, and b) not have a robust WAN connection to the Internet.
Without a robust WAN connection to the Internet, there's no offsite visibility into the analytics of the LAN. I can't see significant clients planning for a future without a persistent WAN connection or being OK with a lack of LAN analytics. Newer Security Appliances (routers) come with LTE failover to insure persistent WAN connectivity for locations where the primary wired ISP is not robust.
Another function that requires persistent WAN connectivity is enterprise Single Sign On authentication - SSO. Gone are the days when onsite authentication without cloud based backup or primary authentication was adequate. This is something I ignored for years, but many enterprise applications now insist on a cloud based SSO such as Microsoft Azure Active Directory (AAD) or similar offerings from Amazon Web Services (AWS) or Google.
Cloud based secure authentication isn't free if you want analytics and the ability to reject login attempts from unknown locations, lockout repeated login failures, etc. But you the administrator also gain the real-time ability to grant or revoke access to all SSO enabled systems and applications - for example to revoke system access, including keycard access to a facility, for a disgruntled employee. I can think of many use cases for security where a persistent WAN connection is needed and desirable.
As for bandwidth, I have 100Mbps FiOS in my apartment (~$100 monthly) and our key locations have 1Gbps Cogent Fiber Internet connections (~$1,000 monthly). Under such circumstances, you're better off using the bandwidth as an available resource to create redundancy and disaster recovery capabilities instead of being concerned about saturating the pipe. If you've never done a daily 500GB offsite backup it seems intimidating - but it's not a big deal anymore.
Most regulated businesses now have statutory obligations for offsite backup and archiving of data and improved Cybersecurity policies per the NIST Cybersecurity Framework's guidelines. A recent Cyber E&O Insurance application I looked at asked a lot of questions about offsite backup and internal system access controls.
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Undisclosed Integrator #7
Hi
I haven't read all the replies and posts on this interesting and long thread.
I am somewhat skeptical when it comes to "Cloud" and physical security. Relying on the Internet for everything is not very wise IMHO. I am at ease with backing up my security videos on the Cloud but to make it the main and only conduit/container to my evidences leaves me unsettled.
Now we get to the point where a company owns my security camera?
Certain things can be rented. Some must be outright owned ...
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John Honovich
Poll results from 200+ votes, members strongly against such IP cameras:
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Undisclosed Distributor #9
Open systems and interoperability have become core features of video surveillance systems, as virtually all professional IP cameras integrate with various 3rd parties for recording, analysis, and management.
In addition to IP camera manufacturers working hard to get 3rd parties to integrate, ONVIF
The above statements are true.Sadly my experience with new prospects / new customers or existing customers is that if they are not using the system, because it is unusable, whats the difference.
Unusable? unusable, to me means the typical layman that works as a go between his main position at "Said Company" and security camera man / clip puller is frustrated with the user interface.
I have such easy sales between "joe asian" and "joe north American" developed software. because it is easy to use and intuitive. Not alot of meaningless tiny buttons.
Verkada to me is an simple to use and easy to distribute UI. Even the busy manager very un-technical can use it with no training. This makes all the difference cause in 6 months when I stop back I hear they use it all the time. Unlike a Hik dvr which I always hear they are very frustrated with.
The camera sales model,tech aspect , is important to me, but more important is if they use the system on a daily basis with ease.
Verkada is a new company, new concept (mostly). They are very silicone valley attitude, and sale type. Tech support is not super knowledgeable or friendly.
They announced analytics like people and vehicle detection? what is that? amazon kinesis / agentvi.. hows that work. you sell analytics, it better work. who knows???
Monthly fees for a camera system and access to it? whats the difference if you use it all the time and like it? sounds ok to me, but when it stops being worthy then we got a problem.
I am really try to concentrate on 5G making the industry think different including myself about what is possible, and cloud cameras and services are hopefully part of the future.
It is nice to see innovation from both parties Meraki / Verkada and money getting pumped into it either way.
This concept of cameras and service is not for every customer, but I see it good for the less camera count, multi locations for sure.
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John Honovich
With regards to Mike and George's discussion mentioning 10 year warranty, I have a question.
What is the value of a 10-year warranty for any video surveillance product? I don't think anyone reasonably believes that a 2019 camera is going to be anywhere near usable / competitive / sensible in 2029? As such, why would that even be valuable? Will they give you a free new (state of the art then) camera 8 years from now or?
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Brendan Cherry
Hi All,
Appreciate the insight this thread provides. I work for Verkada on the sales side and have learned a great deal about the needs of security integrators and IT/Security professionals through these threads.
Our simple thesis in being closed to integrations with other cameras/VMS is that our architecture allows us to ensure network security and a low bandwidth footprint for our enterprise deployments. We've (by we I mean people smarter than me of course) architected the service to leverage to communicate via open ports with our application. By design, Verkada knows to communicate with our application only. With that - we encrypt everything at rest & transit with the only way of decrypting footage being a unique key assigned at the application level. Further - our cameras only require 10-20KBPS per camera allowing our customers to leverage existing network infrastructure.
Our system architecture also ensures our service is always up to date with the latest security patches and new features.
I should also note, we're able to integrate with 3rd party systems that have integration capabilities such as a PoS, Access Control, Active Directory, IdPs, 2-FA, ect. While this is a blanket statement, we will scope integrations based on the API/SDKs a 3rd party vendor supports.
I'd noticed a mention about data storage and consequences of losing a camera to theft or simple failure. We have camera models that store 30, 60, 90, 120 days of 24x7 footage (24 FPS) at the device level with matching cloud backup per camera included. We typically advise that customers schedule backups overnight when the network impact would be minimal to daily business operation. Further - our cameras do detect when someone is attempting to remove a camera from the environment which triggers an auto back up of the event in real time and SMS/Email alerts to admins.
We have an unlimited archive which allows customers to archive footage of incidents indefinitely along with a number of features designed to make finding that potential footage simple.
Last - our partners don't typically charge monthly. Our hardware is backed by a 10yr warranty and we offer licensing in 1, 3, 5, or 10 years upfront. I'd say the value of the warranty is that while customers may elect to purchase new cameras within 10 years, they're not obligated to do this due to failure. Many of customers find a peace of mind with this and appreciate that purchasing a new camera is a business decision and not a requirement.
For anyone interested - I've linked live access to our outdoor fisheye camera so you can get a sense of image quality and some very basic functionality. Verkada Outdoor Fisheye
Hope this provides some clarity to interested readers. Appreciate the thoughtful discussion.
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Brendan Cherry
Hi Michael - It looks like a small spike on Verkada at some point in time which indicates someone viewing in SD or perhaps a scheduled backup / archive. I am not sure how to answer the 12MP question. That is a level of technical expertise that goes well beyond my understanding.
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Brendan Cherry
Doing a bit of quick math - the 108MB upload over 24 hours is inline with our 10-20KBPS per camera. At first I thought the spike was someone on your side pulling footage but it is likely indicating a firmware upgrade.
Meraki advertises 50KBPS per camera on their website though reverse math on the upload shows the camera was operating at under 1KBPS.
I multiplied 20KBPS x 60 seconds x 60 minutes x 24 and converted to MBPS and divided using the same logic with the Meraki upload.
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George Bentinck
The Meraki website states "Less than 50kbps of metadata streams to the cloud per camera when footage is not being viewed".
50kbps is the design maximum for potential data usage when a camera is in an idle state e.g. no one viewing video. Bandwidth usage depends on the amount of activity a camera sees that leads to generation of motion and ML CV analytics metadata.
Typically camera's achieve <3kbps of WAN bandwidth usage in an average deployment. A camera seeing hundreds of people a minute will be more than this due to the increase in metadata. I have yet to come across a deployed camera which is close to consuming the design maximum of 50kbps.
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Daniel S-T
So speaking of all this, I stumbled across an ad somewhere last night. One of the big ISP's here in canada had an offering for "Smart Surveillance".
Kind of surprised me, as I had not been aware Shaw was now installing cameras. A quick look around the web and it seems like they are selling Meraki.
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