AAh, that was so eloquently written supporting your fav AXIS that you should be considered for an Oscar Nomination. I am floored that this article (although titled, Most respected) that the ownership of Hikvision was mistakenly left out along with a side note on any news regarding the side gig of the Directors? I understand he is now driving a Mercedes.
Marty, I have to admit I chuckle every time you refer to someone's Communist Party leadership position as a "side gig", like it is some kind of weekend hobby business or neighborhood block watch captain position.
I picture a conversation at a party, where someone asks "what do you do for a living?" and he answers "well, I'm an executive at this camera company, and I dabble a bit in government politics and leadership in my spare time".
Please explain to everyone exactly what his daily duties are then since you claim to have more information than I, please. Do you have FACTUAL information that proves he does not have a Evinrude Boat motor on his desk and just draws a check and is never ever even seen, except to make "announcements". Or perhaps you could share those Boardroom minutes that IPVM claims to have several months ago?
Or perhaps you could share those Boardroom minutes that IPVM claims to have several months ago?
Marty, show me where IPVM claims to have Hikvision boardroom minutes? You have used that argument multiple times in the last few months and never showed any proof.
Here's a reasonable offer, if in the next 24 hours you post a link to where IPVM said it had boardroom minutes and I will post a new topic apologizing for saying that IPVM had them. Otherwise, if you cannot produce such proof, I will retract all references since you have made this up. Show us your proof.
John- You are the one that stated you would prove me wrong with a follow up during a conversation we had months ago. Do you really think I made that up? We might disagree but taking my word as untruthful is a low blow that is uncalled for. You yourself has access to every conversation I have ever had on IPVM so if you expect me to sit in a chair and go over 500+ conversations in 24 hours that's foolish.
You know damn well I have a business to run. But I will do this, you have my personal Email, send me a copy of all Marty and John arguments and if it is honestly delivered to me within 24 hours I will locate the conversation by Monday.
"Please provide everyone with more information as to what exactly the "chairman" controls at HIKVISION? I mean do you have copies of the Board room minutes, or some other information not available to the IPVM readers that would provide us more insight into the day to day operations as you have suggested here?"
In that post John replies:
"Please provide everyone with more information as to what exactly the "chairman" controls at HIKVISION"
That is very good point, Marty.
Because you asked, I am going to do it. There are some great eye opening Chinese language materials that will really be interesting to the rest of the world. Look for it starting next week."
Even though John specifically mentions the 'what the chairman controls' in his response indicating he will 'do it', Marty apparently takes this to mean that the rest of his comment (not quoted in John's response) is John stating that he will share the Hik board room minutes.
mean do you have copies of the Board room minutes, or some other information
You asked about information ('Board room minutes or some other'). I said yes and you interpreted that to mean board room minutes. Officially, stop with the 'board room minutes' agenda. There's plenty of information but the 'board room minutes' thing is solely your invention and never anything I said I had.
what exactly the "chairman" controls at HIKVISION
As for the Chairman, take a look at the CETHIK leader's speech from Chen Zongnian. Chen Zongnian may be familiar to you from Hikvision sponsored China trip. If not, as you can see from the image on his shirt on that page and from Hikvision's financials, Chen Zognian is simultaneously the Chairman of Hikvision, the Chairman of CETHIK, the 100% China government owned entity that runs Hikvision and the Chairman of the Communist Party for Hikvision. He's the main power person in China for Hikvision, and while he is hidden from the West, a search on baidu for his Chinese name returns plenty of results including interviews, statements and articles about him running Hikvision.
More to come on CETHIK and the Hikvision chairman, though we already have other Hikvision topics scheduled for this week.
Marty, you are certainly welcome to say whatever you want but this is not the prudent post to object to IPVM or defend Hikvision.
If you understand this industry, than the fact that manufacturer competitors respect Axis far more than Hikvision is glaringly obvious and needs no IPVM surveys.
Of course manufacturers are going to like a company who does not cut prices and partners with lots of competitors (i.e., Axis) over one that has cut prices sharply and runs monthly (or this month, multiple monthly) across the board sales (i.e., Hikvision).
If you and Hikvision want to pretend that manufacturer competitors really like Hikvision and Honovich is just faking these results, feel free to live in that illusion but it makes for bad strategy and major mistakes.
I do not pretend nor have I ever claimed to be knowledgeable of "all video". But I do know how to use a calculator and when you (IPVM) have 10,000 possible voters in a Poll where there are 100's of thousands of possible voters in the industry as a whole that are knowledgeable about the questions posed, but only 200 subscriber response that is not a honest, even close to fair "poll" on any product, company or anything else. That result would not pass muster in any industry, including the Video Industry. I understand that IPVM subscription holders are as free as I to offer any opinion they damn well choose but to call a company, any company, not including HIKVISION, out over a 'mini' at best survey is not earth shattering news to be taken as fact. I believe that IPVM offers an reasonable opposing opinion most of the time but damn, with 200 votes out of a possible 10k, that's simply not fair to anyone involved.
Marty, the issue, ultimately, is not the number of people but how representative those respondents are to the population. Even surveys of millions of people, typically only have a few hundred or thousand respondents.
Let me ask you this: Why do you think Hikvision is more respected by manufacturer competitors than Axis? I want to hear your theory here.
Marty, my point is why throw up such an objection to these results unless you somehow think that Axis should not be the most respected? And given that you are Hikvision's #1 proponent on the Internet (and I don't think that's an exaggeration), I would think you believe Hikvision should be there.
John, you will more than aware that IPVM is US centric in terms of its membership - so it comes as no surprise that a skew occurs against Chinese manufacturers given the hostility that is shown by many of your contributors towards them.
As I know you have a good understanding of the global perspective, it would be interesting if you regionalised your results to identify the strongest and weakest players in the various markets. Very strong regional variances occur - although not quite the same, Napco (intruder panels) were extremely strong in Latin America, Eire and Spain, but virtually absent from the UK, France and Scandinavia. So even within a region that are very strong variations that can be manipulated to "invent" a story without a narrative.
Like all surveys and polls, it's not what you ask - but who you ask.
If IPVM wishes to be representative of its majority US based contributors - that's fine, but in doing so - you must accept that the insular viewpoint is not representative of your paid up international contributors.
Pro-Hikvision points are often pushed excessively hard given the continual rhetoric of the mainstream of contributors, to the point where the minority are effectively bullied and demonized. I'm guessing in the same way as tabloid journalism sells papers - the same would apply to IPVM, where the voice of reason and rational debate is drowned out by the rhetoric and imbalanced debate we see every day.
Clearly you won't agree, as to do so would alienate the majority of your paid up members, but a recognition that IPVM is not representative of a global perspective would be helpful. It is a fact of life that Hikvision in the UK is a very different entity than the US.
With less "home grown" protectionism of domestic manufacturers, a more balanced view emerges from the UK, where one of the few UK manufacturers (who still use China for some of their kit) is represented by Mick Browns vitriolic posts - that perhaps don't make clear that his own UK brand of CCTV is in competition again Hikvision.
It is a fact of life that Hikvision in the UK is a very different entity than the US.
It is a fact of statistics that the UK is ~80% smaller than the US in population and GDP. This is a little like saying Texas and Florida are a lot different than the rest of the US.
So you might be right about Hikvision in the UK. Unfortunately, you have no data to support that, just your loyalty to your partner Hikvision (which given what they have been through this year is impressive).
With less "home grown" protectionism of domestic manufacturers
IPVM is the world's leading critic of US manufacturers (e.g., 1,2,3,4, etc.) and US integrators hate Arecont, our largest independent domestic video surveillance manufacturer and love to criticize Pelco, so the insinuation that we or they are protecting 'homegrown' companies is absurd.
Lastly, this was a survey of manufacturers and our manufacturer respondents are very globally diverse, so I am quite confident that the results are globally applicable.
I response to the protectionist approach, this is more directed at the tone and frequency of the Hikvision's posts that smack of jingoism when read objectively.
As for Hik being different in the UK, well yes that can be supported and has already been acknowledged. You have detailed how well the distribution model works by highlighting DVS's margins. You have acknowledged that the great free ANPR solution is available in the UK, but not the US. You have commended the UK Hikvision team on recent cyber updates - when comparing to the US cousin.
So given this, I have little confidence that your results are in way globally applicable. To suggest the contrary view that the US perspective is globally applicable is a little disingenuous and naive. You only need to look at the automotive industry to see wide variations in the consumer adoption of preferred brands - with nothing to suggest CCTV would be any different.
Things have changed dramatically in the last 10+ years. Even if that speculation (i.e. how did they count the UK and world's camera manufacturing - likely way off) was true then, it's irrelevant now. Keep in mind that 2007 speculation was for 4.2 million cameras in the UK and just over 20 million for the world.
As for 2016, Hikvision is claiming 55 million cameras produced just themselves, so whatever number was in 2007 it is completely irrelevant for 2017.
The US is obviously a far, far bigger market than the UK for video surveillance. That's not my opinion. Ask the manufacturers, IHS, etc. It's fact.
You have detailed how well the distribution model works by highlighting DVS's margins. You have acknowledged that the great free ANPR solution is available in the UK, but not the US. You have commended the UK Hikvision team on recent cyber updates - when comparing to the US cousin.
Those are anecdotes, not data. Maybe Hik UK is better than Hik USA. I don't know enough about Hik UK to make that judgment.
Ultimately, your argument still comes down to 'Hey things are like this in the UK' so that's how the world is like. Given the UK's small size is an especially poor argument.
Ultimately John, your opinion - and it only opinion unsupported by any factual evidence, that whatever the landscape is in the US - is the same world over.
I never suggested that the US is not a larger market than the UK, of course it is. The fact that is not as mature is not an insult - its a fact. Indeed, some countries that I have worked in like Hungary - almost jumped the analogue phase altogether to become very aux fait with IP, way ahead of many other of it's European neighbours.
Yes things have changed - but the nature of the markets is very much based on their journey to where they are now. Few countries in the world adopted CCTV into, what we call, Public Space at the speed at what the UK did. In the same way few countries adopted casino CCTV as the US did. But what it does it to set a level of expectation based upon experience and knowledge of legacy hardware and systems that new equipment is replacing. Nothing demonstrate this more than our issues with latency in IP radio links and IP keyboards when set against analogue on long haul fibre.
All this simply underline my point that all markets are different - in many cases's - very different. To to assume that your survey is any way indicative of a global experience, would be foolhardy.
They very point you make "that you don't know much about Hik UK" is perhaps a hint that you don't know very much about the market it operates in. No-one is doubting you knowledge and experience of your domestic audience, but in the same breath as saying you don't know about the UK - please don't suggest that your surveys know any more than you do or reflect the global picture. They are what they are - a snapshot in time of your subscribed readers views.
Can I ask how your ANPR is coming along Mick? You'll be aware that Hik's is doing a great job in the UK as no cost bolt on, I just hadn't seen QVIS ANPR yet - perhaps I missed it?
It is, of course in your own business interest to slate Hikvision and a helping hand from IPVM wouldn't go amiss - I understand that.
I'm not sure what possessed yoy sign up with Hikvision in nthe first place - but I can understand that pulling the rug from under your feet would have left a bad taste that continues with the competitive environment.
Only half a dozen or so - but as you know, it's just free firmware with HIK so we provide it FOC with all installations with site entrance and/or loading bay. We look to our partners to be able to provide the same - clearly, most can't which is why we use HIK. Having used it for well over a year, we can safely say it's performance is excellent and far far better than the older Vista/CitySync garbage without the associated price tag, hours of set-up, separate software and fiddling of setting up with a precise focal pinch-point. With the same camera providing a an contextual overview during the daytime periods.
Shame that IPVM have been unable to test and review the product as its not available in the US.
I assume you have a good range of 4k HDMI decoders to compete with HIK also? Coupled with the IP touchscreen keyboard, it helps an integrator deliver a comprehensive solution - that we look to others to, at least replicate. It's not being pedantic - its providing an end to end solution on a single platform that is rarely acknowledged on IPVM.
My point is that there are many reasons integrators chose HIK - that are not based on price. A full end to end solution based on a single platform is a plus in designers book. Five years advance replacement on equipment that rarely fails is a plus in any Service Departments book. Excellent UK Tech support from the distributor and HIK themselves strengthens the offering further before you even look at pricing. Throw in the ANPR, face detection, people counting and good set of free analytics and you have a powerful set of tools to win business with. Our experience with Pelco, Vicon, IndigoVision, Vista, Bosch, Axis, Geutebruk and Avigilon is that none have the full set of product or support tools that we look for in a partner, that Hik affords us. If they did and we could win business at their prices (gold plated in IV's case), then we would jump ship tomorrow - but that isn't the case.
It's horses for courses. If Hik have nothing else, they have fired a shot across the bows of the arrogant household names, that their lackluster, overpriced offerings really don't cut the mustard and they have all had to up their game. If they think they can simply ignore Hikvision as a non-competitive entity, they will succumb to the stupidity of the DM mindset.
I totally understand why loyal Avigilon/AXIS and QVIS partners would stay with their preferred partner - that's absolutely fine, but to blindly attack Hik and their integrator's is simply recognition of a lack of personal integrity and most likely their ignorant fear.
I'm happy to be doing well in this "small sector" Mick. We are smashing Avigilon with our 4k solutions.
ANPR as you know, has had a high profile in the UK for many years. The Hik camera/firmware/software combo really does work well and can be set up in less than 5 minutes with multiple in/out lanes on one camera. All I say is don't knock it until you've tried it!
Yes, the decoder is a niche product - but how would your kit operate within a control room environment with say, 4 x 4k monitors and 4 HD monitors operated from a single keyboard/joystick linked up to several RAID configured NVR's that have been distributed across a site to optimize system resilience?
For us the decoder and keyboard replicate the keyboard matrix systems of old for a fraction of the price and introduce greater design flexibility and system functionality to permit Silver Command configuration for a fraction of the cost.
Forgive me if I'm wrong - but didn't I see a tagline on your LinkedIn along the lines of "4k what else"?
Tripwire/Intrusion Detection combo - works really well. The latest firmware allows us to set a maximum and minimum target size for both analytics with the result being an almost 100% reduction in external camera false alarms - saving enormous amounts of HD space.
Face detection/people counting - extremely popular with night clubs (where licensing depends on precises visitor number) and retail department stores who can see a gallery of mugshots from each entry door over any given time period at a click of a mouse.
We sell our systems on the wide ranging feature sets and added value that these items bring to an investment. In doing so we have increased our margins over other systems. In the case of remote video monitoring - using the analytics to trigger the remote connections has reduced system monitoring costs massively as well as taking advantage of the Immix that hooks up to Hik a treat. It's all about the systems design solution and what we can offer for the clients budget.
Under that press release logic, IPVM is 'partnered' with Hikvision. We have listed Hikvision cameras longer, with more models and with more easily delivered updates than JVSG (as we similarly do for most manufacturers). I have no objection to JVSG 'partner'ing with Hikvision. I am simply noting that if listing a company's cameras is one's criteria for 'partnering' than IPVM equally qualifies for dozens of manufacturers. Of course, we do not seek or allow any such partnerships or promotion.
Your warranty argument is rediculous Mick. HIK are acknowledged as having excellent reliability. When a camera goes wrong at any time within the 5 year warranty you can have an advanced replacement delivered FOC and the faulty unit collected FOC. I checked this morning and if it’s a current model, it’s a straight swap, if it’s a superseded model you get it’s replaced model and if it’s obselete you receive a credit.
As an integrator we go back to back with this arrangement passing the benefit through to the client. Commercially, this hooks the client in for 5 years - allowing for all the additional works that come along. From the sharp end - that’s good business sense.
You haven’t said what QVIS offer?
As you know GDPR replaces the DPA. Implied consent still applies and the functionality of a system can be honed to a compliant design dependant on the justification of the business model based upon their GDPR policy. Face detection is no different in any way to normal CCTV. It’s just a means of presenting the same image - but cropped to the facial view and placed with a gallery. Perhaps this isn’t a feature QVIS has and that you perhaps confusing facial recognition?
For the US contributors, you should take a long l at the GDPR regulations as the fines are based upon a companies global turnover - applying to any system located within the EU.
Having read a number of your posts over the past couple of months, I at first thought that you simply did not like how IPVM represented Hik, however I am now starting to wonder if your simply trolling.
My friend, you are doing more of a disservice to Hik than help with these inflammatory posts. How Hik has handled themselves over the past couple of years, most recently in their handling of the report on the DHS rating, has most definitively affect how I perceive them, your posts are only adding to the growing doubt that they will have a sustainable presence in the long run. Blind arrogance is not a good business strategy, honest humility will go much further.
Mick, would it also be fair and accurate to say your Director remuneration and dividend payouts have increased (+12%) against against a fall in revenue (-14%) gross profit (-6%) and operating profit (-54%) as your 2015/16 accounts filed at Companies House would suggest? Just asking.....as this could also be seen as 'cashing out"?
Whilst I have the utmost respect for any business owner turning a profit in a challenging commercial environment, I think that respect also extends to Mr Hu - at the helm of a highly successful $30b company, who's share price has increased 40% in 12 months?
Hu is not 'at the helm'. The Chairman and real CEO in China is Chen Zognian. It's disclosed in their financials but marketed to the overseas market. We touch on this here: Hikvision Chinese Government Origin And Control. Hu is #2 in Hikvision and the General Manager.
No, that is Gong Hongjia who has recently sold off a lot of his Hikvision stock.
Chen Zongnian, according to records has no stock, but has been the head of Hikvision since the very beginning and remains the Communist Party Chair both of Hikvision and of its government parent company CETHIK, e.g.:
If I was Hikvision I would do the opposite. Hikvision should shut Marty down if they understood just how poorly he represents them and how polarizing he is, which then gets attached to HIKVISION. Marty is turning Hikvision into a piñata in the comments. However, Hikvision seems to be taking the "any port in a storm" approach to their propagandist selection process.
While I never have been a strong proponent of Axis's channel strategy, I have been impressed with their strong position not to bend to the pressure of low price. I was also surprised to see how well they did this past quarter. I would have assumed that the low cost options (Hik and Dahua) would have eaten away at their market share and effected growth potential.
Is there a starting shift away from cost as the main factor, to more reputable brands and value add technologies?
Is this being driven by the end-user or are dealers shifting their own market/sales strategy?
There is a big part of the market that looks for the lowest cost solution which is "good enough". This segment has already migrated to Hikvision for the most part. There is also a big part of the market that wants the best solution, is not price sensitive, and often takes the advice of their integrator (who naturally want to sell the most expensive solution). I am not trying to say that Axis is the best solution, but it is perceived to be and there is a strong argument for it. This may oversimplify things because there is a lot in between these segments but this loosely describes things from where we sit and you find the same dynamic in most industries. So are surveillance cameras becoming commodities? Depends on the customer.
I find this comment a bit ignorant. It is no secret that I work for a Chinese manufacturer and I never hide my name in any comments that I make so I just want to be up front with that.
Where you refer to people looking for a product that is "good enough" and then stating that those wanting that are buying Hikvision is just wrong. Hikvision's and our own products have performed very strongly in a number of scenarios and have been specified because they are deemed to be the best in the given scenario. Lowlight and WDR are two areas where both of our brands perform very strongly. We also both produce a very strong range of PTZ's that have been specified in a number of projects because of some of our feature sets.
Don't just assume that the traditional brands are the best in all scenarios. Not all of the success of the Chinese brands come from being cheap. Our products also perform strongly and are increasingly recognised for their performance.
Not all of the success of the Chinese brands come from being cheap. Our products also perform strongly and are increasingly recognised for their performance.
Tony, I agree with that generally for imaging quality and hardware reliability (cybersecurity and software is another matter).
I do think Hikvision and Dahua's pricing strategy impact their brand perception, meaning that because both companies discount so heavily relative to their much smaller Western competitors, it feeds into the perception that they are inferior since the Western mentality is typically that higher quality products cost more.
Agreed. Low price doesn't necessarily = bad products, but you can't really tell how much of an effect price has made in any decision...especially when the numbers are all over the place. It can't be quantified really.
So, you end up with Hik competitors thinking that price is the only influence, and Hik stakeholders thinking that it had little or no influence. The "outsiders" group is larger than the "insiders" group, and so the price advantage discussion turns to one about markets, subsidies and the fairness of trade.
But I think what gets forgotten here is if a manufacturer gets subsidies, no matter where they are from, the product is not really as cheap as it seems. For instance, if a company is getting the equivalent of $100 a camera from a government source or other source, and they're selling that camera for $200, that's probably actually a $300 camera that got partly paid for by a 3rd party.
My comment was just meant to point out that by making price such a huge point of differentiation, people like Tony above are going to have to endure discussions about subsidies, and fair trade... and they will always have to fight off accusations of poor quality.
Not all of the success of the Chinese brands come from being cheap. Our products also perform strongly and are increasingly recognized for their performance.
Yes, Tony, Yes. And except for a few exceptions, because no product is perfect operation wise, no one, including IPVM, has ever said these cameras were below par for image quality. Where they do fall below par in quality, which the proponents keeps trying to drown out with noise, is the quality of their cybersecurity, their quality in trustworthiness (see recent articles on their marketing), and quality in their business practices. There's more than one quality metric being looked at here, as much as proponents would like to keep it at just one.
You missed the point. If someone isn't willing to pay more than $150 for an IP camera they are going to get something that is "good enough", regardless of who makes it. Before Hikvision's arrival a camera under $150 wouldn't have been good enough. I would have been crap. And this segment is where Hikvision has been dominating in the US. Dahua wasn't even around when the big migration I referred to happened. And being late to this market, Dahua missed the boat. I did not state that Chinese manufacturers aren't making quality products. However, for those looking for the best-in-class products, the names Hikvison and Dahua aren't normally the first that spring to mind. That is just the reality not an assessment of product quality. And in light of the way your company has entered the market here I don't think that perception will change in the short run. Because it's not just about the products, it's also about how you run your business.
There will always be a market for the likes of Axis, AVIGILON, Genetec, Milestone etc as long as they stay true to their values. I do ot think any of these manufacturers are interested in partaking in to the race to the bottom neither could they afford it without goverb=nment backing. Sure we have seen pricing coming down strategically with both Axis and AVIGILON which will give some end users the option to go either with the 'high end' Hik option or the 'basic' Axis or AVIGILON options. Hik cannot compete with many of the quality VMSs out there and there is no way around that, no matter what Marty comes out with. There is a saying here 'give them enough rope and they will hang themselves'. Hik is never going to bow to anything that will be put up against them by the 'western world' as that would be seen as a sign of weakness and from my experience that doesn't go down well in China. No, simply put on another Sale, dump some more and even cheaper gear on the market until the money runs out.
I spoke with the AXIS rep in my territory recently at a small roadshow and he clearly shared my opinion and the many opinions voiced on IPVM when it comes to Hik. Oh, and Hik was present as well trying to demo their VMS with no success.
There is lots of mutual respect in the market amongst AXIS, AVIGILON, GNETEC etc. I did find it interesting though that GENETEC is happy enough to have many IC Realtime cameras connected to their VMS which is rather strange based on the fact that they have 'banned' Hik.
My comment was aimed at IC Realtime being Dahua and with Dahua's track record being shaky at best i find it rather strange that GENETEC are happy to accept IC Realtime over Hik. Overhere it's Stanley that use a lot of IC Realtime and Genetec.
The "poll" is just part of IPVM's fake news war against HIKVISION in an attempt to prop up the failed US CCTV manufacturing base. This is how the world views the ongoing tirade - but the insular IPVM editorial mindset is as insular as ever.
Anecdote speaks volumes. In over 20 years of installing cameras, HIKVISION are by far the most reliable product we have used. IndigoVision follows closely. Vista from Norbain has proved the most unreliable mostly due to using really poor re-branded US kit fro Kalatel - especially the appalling BLADE range of DVR's.
Incorrect. The BLADE and Storesafe range of products were shoddily put together by Kalatel long before HIKVISION wee on the scene, as you will know. The remnants of the stock were the sold to Norbain in the UK and re-badged as Vista - again, along time before HIKVISION. So to assist you with your comment - no. A more accurate comment would be Kalatel re-badged as GE - both US brands as I recall?