Most Disrespected Manufacturer Competitors

By John Honovich, Published Jun 01, 2017, 06:35am EDT

Manufacturers told IPVM what competitor they most disrespected.

There was one overwhelming selection that manufacturers felt was harming the industry.

Inside this post, we share the results of the survey and detailed color commentary. (Contrast to the manufacturer most respected results).

Ranking ******

********* ******** **** **** half ** *** ************ selections **** ***** * very ******** ****** *** no ********** ***** ***** finisher.

#1 *********

************ *********** ******* ** the *****-******* ****** ** 'race ** *** ******', subsidies *** ********** *********.

Race ** *** ******

*** **** ****** ************ response *** ***** *** race ** *** ****** / ***** ****:

  • "*********! **** *** *** leaders ** *** **** to *** ****** *** have ********* *** ***** of *** ********."
  • "********* - *** ** their ********* *** ***** tactics - "*** **** to *** ****** ** price""
  • "*********. ***** ***, *** offering ******* ***** ** feature, *** **** ******* camera ** *********."
  • "*********. **** *** ************ in ********* *** ****** North ******** ***** ******** industry *** *** *** trendsetter *** "**** ** the ******"."
  • "*********, *** ******* ***** war, ****** **** ***** a ** ****** ***."
  • "*********, **** ************ *** surveillance ********."
  • "*********. ***** **** **** "good ******" ******** ** some *****, **** **** contributed ** ******* *** channel **** *** ********* mindset ** *****, *** price ****, ****** *********."

*** **** **** ********* was ****** *** ******** worse *** ********** ******.

Subsidies / *****

******* ** **** *** manufacturer's ***** **** ********* used ********* / ******* market ********* ** **** international ***** ****:

  • "********* **** ********** ***** discounts *** **** ** undermines *** ********."
  • "*********. ****** *********** *** to ******* *******/****** ******* up ** ****** ********** funds ** ******** ** industry (***) *** ********** low ******* ******* ** China ******* ** ****** margins ***** **** ************ on ********** *********"
  • "*********. ***-**** ****** *******. Price *******."
  • "* ********** **** *** and **** **** **** done ** *** ***********. They **** ****** ********* the ***** ******** ******** through ********* ******** ** the ******* **********."
  • "**** ******* * ********* pricing **-**-****** ******** (********* only ******* ** ******* government ***********) **** ****** quality ********* ** ***** dramatically ******* ******* ***** could ** **** *** technological ********** *** ************ growth."

Government *********

*********'* ***** ********** ************ ***** ** **** responses, ********* * ****** of ***** ***** ** was ******* ** *** competitor's *********:

  • "*********; ******* **********-***** *** with ******** ******* *** cannot ******** ***** ************* owner."
  • "*********- * ** ******* Communist ***** ********** *********. I ** **** **** knew ***** ***** ******** back ***** ****** **** were ***** *** ** US"
  • "*********. **** **** ********* the *********** **** *** backing ** * ********* central **********. ********, **** government ****** ******** *** western ********* ** *******. It *******'* ** ******* has *** **** ***** wins."
  • "********* ******* **** **** an ****** *********** ********* with ***** ********** *********."

Lack ** ************

** ******** ** ************* partnering **** ********* *** made ** *** ********* nor ************ *******. **********, as **** *** *****, is ***** * *** to **** ******* / favor **** ***********. ** the ********, *** *** manufacturer *********** *** **** of ********** ************* **** Hikvision:

"** * *** ***** manager, * ** ******* with **** ** *** camera ************* ** *******. Funny *** * ***** hear **** ********* ***** reps ** ******* ** projects."

**** ** ********* *** partnering ** **** ** other '******' ************* ** because **** **** ***** own **** / *** but *** ***** ** that ********* *************** *** done **** ** *** lower *** ** *** market ***** ********* *** been ********* ******* ***** own **** *** **** recorders **** ********** *** role ** *** ********.

Distant ****** *****

***** *** * *** distant ******* **** **** of ***** ******** ***** listed ***** ***** *********, e.g.:

  • "********* *** *****. ****...."
  • "********* / *****. ******..."
  • "***** *** ********* , they..."
  • "** ******* : ***** & *********..."

*** * *** ****** about *****'* ******** *********:

"***** - **** ******* in ********* ******** *********. lately, **** *** ****** cameras **** **** ** get * ********* ** the ******"

"***** ** ******* *** partners ****** *** *** partners ***** ******** ***** the ***"

Risks ** *********

****** ** **** *********** disrespect **** ** * major **** ** *********. Equally ***********, ** ***** explain *** *** **** travels ** **** *** wide *** *********. ********* is ********** **** *** all *** ***** ************* put ******** *** ***** vastly ****** **** *********, especially ******* ** *****. Being ** ************ ***** that ***** *********** *** far **** ****** ** speak ********** ** **** back ******* ********* ***** efforts.

** ******, *********'* *********** have ***** *** ***** risks.

Risks ** *********'* ***********

*********'* *********** *** ** wrong **** ********* ******* on *** ******* ********** ownership *** ** *** prove ***********, ******** ***** competitors. ** *** *********** may ***** ** ** right *** ********* ** able ** ********** ********* such ******** *** **** enough **** *** *********** are ****** *** ** the *******.

*********, ********* *** ******* these ******* ** *********** being ******* *** ****** to ********* ***, ******, some ***. *** *** or ****** ********* ******* to *** **** ***** competitors ** ********* ********? This ** ** ************ important ******** ** ********* tries ** **** ** market *************** ***** ******* business ** *** **** complicated *** ******* *********.

Comments (52)

Undisclosed

06/01/17 07:36pm

This was video only?  So nobody had a chance to vote on reader vendors, for example.

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

In reply to Undisclosed | 06/01/17 07:58pm

If it did or does involve readers or other items I have a suspicion the results would differ very little.  Hik and Dahua are massively disruptive in the surveillance market.  Who is disruptive in card access to the same level that it would generate anything more than background noise in a survey?

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Undisclosed Integrator #5

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #3 | 06/01/17 08:29pm

Lenel... You have not experienced rage until you have dealt with "Lenel Customer Support".

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #5 | 06/01/17 09:26pm

Unfortunately, I do.  I do everything in my power not to deal with them.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #5 | 06/01/17 10:33pm

You have not experienced rage until you have dealt with "Lenel Customer Support".

Yes, e.g., Lenel Partners Angry, Lenel Does Not Care, Worst Access Control 2016. However, this survey was for manufacturers, not integrators or end users.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed | 06/01/17 10:33pm

So nobody had a chance to vote on reader vendors

No, People had a chance to vote on reader vendors though there are more manufacturer employees in video overall and more of them on IPVM than access control ones.

I am not sure why access manufacturer employees would be especially angry or negative towards reader manufacturers.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

06/01/17 07:49pm

No surprises there so...

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Undisclosed End User #4

06/01/17 08:07pm

[IPVM Note: Poster is Bashis, who has discovered many vulnerabilities including Axis and Dahua.]

For an independent wannabe researcher like myself, pure cybersecurity wise, these three mentioned manufacturers are rated as follow in best quality: 1) Axis, 2) Hikvision, 3) Dahua.

I'm not only talking about recent disclosures of vulnerabilities and/or backdoors, i'm talking about the whole impression while researching some of each manufactures products. Where one of them also disrespecting GNU General Public License.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

In reply to Undisclosed End User #4 | 06/01/17 11:50pm

As part of GNU license HiSilicon inside their own SDK provide a lengthy document to explain what is required. To their credit it is done professionally and how to be expected from a manufacturer.

The link to the word file if you like to read 200odd pages! last page maybe most insightful.

You wonder where such a document exists for every other manufacturer using their Solutions! Hikvision, Dahua to name a few!

Breaking the GNU agreement is a legal issue.

With more of course in the open, then the safer a product can become, with holes plugged. This is the spirit of GNU.

A quick hack and slash of GNU copyright is quite unacceptable.

 

 

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #6 | 06/02/17 01:21am

#6, thanks for sharing. the last page is an offer to send source code for $10:

We will provide you with the source code of the software licensed under related license if you send us a written request by mail or email to the following addresses:

foss@huawei.com

detailing the name of the product and the firmware version for which you need the source code and indicating how we can contact you. 

Please note that we will ask you to pay us US $ 10, for the costs incurred. This offer is valid for three years from the moment we distributed the product.

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Undisclosed End User #4

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #6 | 06/02/17 05:14pm

Totally agree with you!

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Undisclosed Integrator #5

In reply to Undisclosed End User #4 | 06/03/17 05:04am

Hey Bashis. As an independent researcher what is the Pentest's communities view on IP Cameras vs other IoT Devices? Everything I have read does not look good and I kind of wanted to ask someone who actually lives within that space. 

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Undisclosed End User #4

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #5 | 06/03/17 07:46pm

Broad question, I can only answer for myself, and I don't see any direct difference.

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Undisclosed Integrator #5

In reply to Undisclosed End User #4 | 06/04/17 08:18pm

This is true. Should not have asked such a broad question. Spoke with an acquaintance of mine and his opinion is that most of the code structure that some IP Cameras are based on is "antiquated at best...". 

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Tony Lagan

06/02/17 01:28am

So Hikvision and Dahua were the only manufacturers who had negative responses?

It would be interesting to see what was said about other manufacturers as I am sure there were others that were criticised.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Tony Lagan | 06/02/17 02:05am

So Hikvision and Dahua were the only manufacturers who had negative responses?

No, there were a number of other negative responses but as mentioned in the report, "no definitive third place finisher", meaning that of the other negative responses they were scattered over so many companies that there was no trend or choice.

We did cite one negative response in the Most Respected results to balance / contrast Axis' selection, copied below:

Even in the disrespected results , Axis only had one material result. It was an interesting detailed point, which we share below:

Axis. Very arrogant in the market. They dictate pricing to end users and do not allow installers or distributors to make healthy margins. Hills (Axis's largest distributor in Australia) made and average of 8% Gross margin last year which is just not enough for a value add disty to sustain profitability. Our distributors make between 30 and 40% Their products are reliable but are over priced and under featured.

In terms of other selections, again no trend and there was only one negative for Genetec but it was an interesting selection pro-Hikvision:

Genetec. Was most respected by me in the past. But now not - for not fair play with Hik. It is actually good for us, because pushes Hik to work close with other vendors.

Hope those help.

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Tony Lagan

In reply to John Honovich | 06/02/17 02:31am

Thanks John.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security
06/02/17 03:02pm

Honestly, I bet this pumps Hikvision up. Same thing I said in another discussion thread, "if you aint pissing competitors off, you aint doing something right"

If your speaking from a Chinese manufacturer perspective, if any of the Chinese manufacturers voted that they disrespect Hikvision, I can tell you thats purely BS. They may say that just because they want to beat them or whatever, but I can tell you that every Chinese manufacturer has the great respect for Hikvision. You can tell anytime you talk to them. When they are talking about products "this camera does this, just like Hikvision" "We are number 3, just behind Dahua and Hikvision" "This camera cheaper than Hikvision" etc etc. In other words, Hikvision has raised the bar and everyone else is just to trying to reach that.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/02/17 03:06pm

I bet this pumps Hikvision up

Maybe, I do not know.

Interestingly, ~5 hours after we released this post, Hikvision posted Online Blogger Gets an F, so minimally Hikivision is still not pumped about IPVM.

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Undisclosed #7

In reply to John Honovich | 06/02/17 03:56pm

$10 says that press release blog you linked to on the Hik domain was written by their new crisis communication writer.

No mention of your name - just 'security scandal scribe' and 'the blogger' used in differing variations repeatedly.

No mention of Hik's glacial response to exposed product liabilities (direct and OEM) that could endanger their own VARs.

No mention of any of 'the bloggers' specific criticisms of Hik, instead formatting the response to focus on 'the bloggers' lack of comprehension RE: global relationships between the China and N America.

Pretty standard disinformation campaign drivel.

One criticism I might make:  the use of diminutive terms like 'the blogger' ring a bit hollow when you are also a blogger.  Just sayin'... :)

 

 

 

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #7 | 06/05/17 01:28pm

$10 says that press release blog you linked to on the Hik domain was written by their new crisis communication writer.

To the best of my knowledge, that's not true.

Also, this sounds like something straight out of Chinese government press releases, not a US PR person.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/02/17 03:56pm

[Note: Manufacturer From China]

There is no manufacturer who thinks this. When most have lost their business half their profits and wants to compete against effectively the government. You I am to say are somwhat miss guided. They only say this and that about hikvision because it's the only company as a reference in China and number one. Respect is earned. Destroying an industry a livelihood of people in the race to the gutter is not welcomed.

its fair to say there are about 10 number threes in China in security market. Until such a point where they all are public companies then it's not a discussion.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security
In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #6 | 06/02/17 04:13pm

I hate to correct you but your wrong. They may not come out and say they respect Hikvision, but they surely do. They may even say they hate Hikvision, but the level of respect is clearly there. You have some companies whose sole goal is to try to beat Hikvision. Then you have some companies who may not be out to beat Hikvision but they clearly used them as a standard to go off of, you can tell because they clearly ripped off their GUI's and made slight changes. Then you have the smaller companies who are priced way cheaper than Hikvision, always have been and their push is "We have same quality as Hikvision but much cheaper" In other words, Hikvision is the standard in China. They raised the bar, every other company respects this and tries to find a way to match up, or beat it.

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Josh Bylsma

BLUEmark Technologies
In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/02/17 07:13pm

Sean - I think you miss-understand the word respect (Definition of Respect). To not like or "hate" Hik, as you stated, is not synonymous to respect. 

The lack of respect for Hik (and other low cost options) goes much deeper than simply driving the market down on price. The influence Hik has had on the industry has essentially gutted the integrity and professionalism that once was prevalent in PhySec industry. A once highly skilled, specialized niche industry is now becoming a commoditized, consumer market. 

Let me try to say it another way, I once took pride in what I did. I, like many others in the industry, took considerable time and effort to learn and understand the intricacies of physical security. Adapting technologies to meet customer needs and fulfill operational and security expectations. With the entrance of DIY, low cost OEMs on Amazon and 'trunk slammers', the value of what we once offered is gone. 

Anyone with an Amazon account can now become an "integrator". IPVM has done a good job of highlighting this growing, and very disturbing, trend. 

I understand that one could argue that this is a good thing and a natural progression of maturing market, however we are talking about security, not cell phones. The very nature of the security industry in which we work, demands integrity and professionalism. 

In contrast, Hik has resorted to sales and marketing strategies that are similar to the consumer market. While they may be growing, you and others may be winning projects and making money off them, I assure you, you are a minority. 

The great number of integrators I have talked with all over the United States and Canada, from small shops, regional operations to global conglomerates have said the same thing, "we hate Hik, we hate what they are doing and we hate that we have to use them". 

Hik has not added anything to the market, instead they have taken much away. They are simply buying market share through aggressive pricing and the flooding of their products through OEM and end-user channels. 

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Undisclosed #7

In reply to Josh Bylsma | 06/02/17 07:44pm

serious question....

Do you hate the player or do you hate the game?

If the N American market allowed itself to become complacent enough for a company like Hikvision to take advantage of the playing field.... it's hard for me (and I am no Hik apologist; I've punched Calhoun in the chops many times as Undisclosed) to fault the player for figuring out the market vulnerabilities and proceeding with a plan to capitalize on the market weaknesses to their own advantage.

Comments encouraged.  :)

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Josh Bylsma

BLUEmark Technologies
In reply to Undisclosed #7 | 06/02/17 08:36pm

Great question and interesting perspective. 

Two answers:

1. Hate the Player: We have done this to ourselves for sure. When an integrator tells me that they "must sell Hik" they are only perpetuating the problem by conforming to the market pressure created by Hik. Instead of raising the bar, educating customers, and showing what it means to be an "integrator", we have been too quick to role over on price. Instead of raising the bar and adding value. 

2. Hate the Game: Hik has bought there way into the NAM. They have developed good cameras (from an image perspective) and have pushed hard into the market through cost concessions. This, I believe, has allowed many to enter the security market that would not have been qualified by other manufactures. 

(Once talked to a integrator that wanted to buy my products, during the call they owner and main tech asked, "how do you change an IP address on a computer". Told him we are not a fit for him... he switched to Hik)

Conclusion: We have, and continue to allow Hik to drive the market. Some manufactures and integrators are starting to say "enough, not going to sell on price alone" and re-focus on value. 

It will be interesting to see if there is a major swing back at some point. After all, all business is cyclical. 

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security
In reply to Josh Bylsma | 06/02/17 09:43pm

Oh im not saying their isnt people who disrepect Hik. I have no doubt that their are integrators that hate Hik. I also have no doubt their are manufacturers that hate Hik. I was speaking directly about Chinese manufacturers.

The great number of integrators I have talked with all over the United States and Canada, from small shops, regional operations to global conglomerates have said the same thing, "we hate Hik, we hate what they are doing and we hate that we have to use them". 

Step outside of IPVM and you may get different opinions. What I say to the people who say "we have that we have to use them". Answer: dont use them. I think they use them because they respect the fact that they have to use them? They respect that its a good product for a cost lot lower than what the other name brands are selling for and performs just as good. I think a more accurate statement from that type of person is "I hate that I cant make the same amount of margins that I could off of my name brand equipment" because honestly, if you truely hated the equipment your installing, your being somewhat dishonest with yourself.

Hik has not added anything to the market, instead they have taken much away. They are simply buying market share through aggressive pricing and the flooding of their products through OEM and end-user channels.

Perhaps speaking from a point of view from an integrator that is used to selling name brand equipment that costs 4-5x more than Hikvision, i can see how someone could feel that way. But speaking from an end user perspective that can now afford high performing security products at a reasonable price and speaking from the perspective of the integrators who win those jobs and still make decent margins, the opposite is true.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/03/17 04:35pm

It seems to me that the Hik supporters here are only the ones who take advantage of the market manipulation allowed and controlled by the Chinese government, falling victim to it and basing their livelyhood and sense of success on it, and therefore subconsciously do not respect themselves, grasping at any justification, no matter how obtuse, to drive the lack of self respect deeper into their subconscious in order to avoid the reality that they are pawns of the most powerful Communist regime of our time.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #9 | 06/03/17 05:00pm

subconsciously do not respect themselves, grasping at any justification, no matter how obtuse, to drive the lack of self respect deeper into their subconscious in order to avoid the reality that they are pawns of the most powerful Communist regime of our time.

I really think that's an unfair and inappropriate description of Hikvision supporters.

I bet that Sean respects himself but simply cares far more about the direct business benefits of selling Hikvision products than the much more indirect political and economic issues involved. Indeed, I would argue that is a very American attitude, for better or worse.

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Josh Bylsma

BLUEmark Technologies
In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/05/17 12:39pm

Step outside of IPVM and you may get different opinions.

These conversations have been in person, face-to-face and not associated with IPVM. Over the past 10 years, I have worked in most every state and all over Canada both as an Integrator and working for several manufactures.

I do agree with you statement.. "don't use them". I have started to see some integrators moving away from win on price sales strategy, and back to a consultative, long term relationship sales model.  

... still make decent margins...

For the sake of this conversation, margin is different than margin dollars. Margin is simply the percentage of the sale that is profit, whereas margin dollars is the actual amount money made in profit on hardware. Example: $100 camera with 30% margin = $42.86 in profit. In contrast a $200 camera with 30% margin = $85.71 (more than double) in profit dollars. Just because one has good margin, does NOT mean one has good profit. 

There is a lot to this point that could be discussed. Low margin dollars, means lower profit. So integrators must make up these losses in other places... I digress. I believe IPVM stated a separate thread on this but there was not a lot of response (surprising). 

There has been and will continue to be, substantial debate as to the real market validity of Hik's strategy. Government subsidizes, the NAM as a lose leader market, manufacturing practices that devoid the human element to save on manufacturing costs, etc. While it may be difficult to fully vet out some of these rumors, there is a lot of smoke, and when there is smoke, there is fire.

While you and I do not see eye-to-eye on Hik, I do appreciate your good response. To many Hik 'fan-boys' take a totalitarian approach in defending their position... which has only gone to hurt Hik's overall reputation. 

 

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/02/17 09:12pm

They may not come out and say they respect Hikvision, but they surely do.

As Josh mentions, I think you are mis-understanding or, at least, choosing a quite atypical definition of respect.

They may even say they hate Hikvision, but the level of respect is clearly there.

With that logic, I could argue that Hikvision 'respects' IPVM since they attack us regularly. But 'respect' more commonly means 'the condition of being esteemed or honored', which clearly Hikvision does not feel about IPVM. They 'respect' us to the extent that they recognize our influence but that's not really what most people mean when they say the word 'respect.'

I do agree with your more underlying point that competitors think Hikvision is powerful and influential, as such they try to compete, position, beat, match, etc. Hikvision.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

In reply to Sean Nelson | 06/03/17 01:04pm

"Raising the bar" = using government power and money to penetrate markets and kick competitors out.

Then yes, they have raised the bar.

 

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Undisclosed Integrator #8

06/02/17 09:27pm

I believe that Hikvision runs on Hikvision and watches everyone else complain, whine or follow.

Secondly, I believe that IPVM holds a 'grudge against' the entire Chinese population, disregards anything that is positive for the people, the economy or any of the many factory workers that supply the US with many quality products. Its not just Hikvision its any and everything Chinese made.

I ponder to question if anyone in the IPVM culture has relatives or family members that are Chinese that have a personal discourse with there heritage or Homeland and that fuels the overwhelming discontent for all Chinese?

Is not just Hikvision, it runs deeper.

Just a thought...

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #8 | 06/03/17 12:17am

I believe that IPVM holds a 'grudge against' the entire Chinese population

3 points:

(1) False.

(2) Were you trained by Xinhua in propaganda? Who talks like that?

(3) What does your comment have to do with manufacturers overwhelmingly choosing Hikvision as the competitor they most disrespect?

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Joseph Hirasawa

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #8 | 06/05/17 01:22am

I believe that IPVM holds a 'grudge against' the entire Chinese population, disregards anything that is positive for the people, the economy or any of the many factory workers that supply the US with many quality products

 

Well now, that escalated.

 Reporter: "I think what you are doing is wrong because of these points. What do you have to say to this matter?."
 Subject: "Ok....well, that means you hate us and all humanity on a personal level! Because of this, you are wrong! Next question!"

 The summary is, someone can't take the heat. Please, put your big boy underpants on & deal with it like a professional, while staying on topic.

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Josh Bylsma

BLUEmark Technologies
In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #8 | 06/05/17 12:52pm

I am going to assume that you are new to IPVM and have only started reading since the recent debate/scandal/vulnerability reports of Hik. Those of us that have been around a while recall the reporting on the poor Arecont advertising gimiks, Lenel listed as most hated EAC, Avigilon's share price drops, Axis poor YoY growth, the Dedicated Micros' CEO forum debate (epic)....etc, etc. If we use your logic, IPVM hates Canadians, Americans and the Swedes as well.  

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Undisclosed Integrator #10

06/05/17 12:27pm

Pelco. In regard to the mis-information distributed reading the DX range of DVR's "falling off" networks. They initially said they had only had one or two cases of it - then admit when the CEO is involved that its a known defect of the DX range that Pelco have not disclosed. Being caught telling lies is never a good.

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Josh Bylsma

BLUEmark Technologies
In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #10 | 06/05/17 01:49pm

Pelco has no doubt fallen from being the prince of the industry to the status of stable boy. One could argue that the mere fact they where not even listed as a possibility reveals the fact that they are no longer a significant player. From the massive miss-steps post Snyder acquisition to the continued poor development, lack of innovation and moving away from what made them once the leader, only hurts them more and more.   

The only thing keeping them alive, is that many A/Es across the country still use their boiler-plates in specs because they do not know better.

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Undisclosed Integrator #11

06/05/17 12:36pm

Hmmmmm!

I have glanced at the posts and there seems to be one thing lost ( I could be wrong) in this entire discussion. Hikvision products are usually good regardless of model and price and often superior to the competition and that at a lesser price. This is their claim to fame. This is their strength ( that and the vast coffers of the Chinese Government itself alimented by the gluttony of the Occidental markets).. The reality is that this is Capitalism... Ironic isn't it ? That Capitalism core concepts are exploited by a Communist regime!! . Enter disrupt and dominate. The US have done that, Japan has and now it is the Chinese. There is no escaping it. We lament the fact that an IP camera cost less than $100 complete with all bells and whistles while forgetting that <$100 smartphone are even more formidable computing devices. IOW a <$100 smartphone can do most of the things any IP camera does.  Matter of specialization. We are at that juncture . It is beyond unsettling, it is threatening. The World has faced it. Horse carriages drivers and businesses have faced the onslaught of railroads and automobiles ... The Security Industry ( Integrators, manufacturers, etc)  is in that predicament. And  we are grasping for answers, for responses.

 I believe it's not disrespect: It is fear.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #11 | 06/05/17 12:42pm

The reality is that this is Capitalism... Ironic isn't it ?

No, it's actually mercantilism:

Mercantilism is a form of economic nationalism. Its goal is to enrich and empower the nation and state to the maximum degree, by acquiring and retaining as much economic activity as possible within the nation's borders. Manufacturing and industry, particularly of goods with military applications, were prioritized.

China funds its manufacturers (like Hikvision) and creates significant barriers for foreign manufacturers (Axis, Avigilon, etc.) from competing for projects inside China.

We lament the fact that an IP camera cost less than $100 complete with all bells and whistles while forgetting that <$100 smartphone are even more formidable computing devices.

That an IP camera can cost under $100 is not the big deal here. That Hikvision can sell cameras so cheaply plus absorb massive local Western sales, marketing and support costs is the issue and what's unsustainable.

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Undisclosed Integrator #11

In reply to John Honovich | 06/05/17 09:56pm

We can discuss about the fine lines between capitalism and mercantilism. They amount to the same things: Profit by selling. Sell more than the competitor be it a nation or a corporation. Profit more. The Chinese are using capitalistic tools to further their goals. This is Ironic.

That a smartphone cost less than $100 is the real issue here; the price of silicon is following Moore's law with so far not a hitch... Economies of scale is at play. Not knowing their cost structure it is impossible to claim this not sustainable. Detroit car manufacturers made that mistake and almost went belly-up. They've learned their lesson.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #11 | 06/05/17 10:13pm

We can discuss about the fine lines between capitalism and mercantilism. They amount to the same things: Profit by selling.

No, they are not. Here is one economic explanation of their differences.

Mercantilism is profit by one country providing its companies an advantage at the expense of other country's companies.

Economies of scale is at play.

No, Hikvision has no economies of scale when it comes to sales, marketing, support, etc. internationally. That's where the costs are.

the price of silicon is following Moore's law with so far not a hitch...

FYI, cameras are significantly non silicon, e.g., lens, housings, boards, etc. and Moore's law has been slowing for some time.

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Undisclosed #7

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #11 | 06/06/17 12:17am

"We can discuss about the fine lines between capitalism and mercantilism. They amount to the same things: Profit by selling."

This is simply not true at all - capitalism and mercantilism are not the same things.

"The Chinese are using capitalistic tools to further their goals. This is Ironic."

The Chinese are actually using mercantilistic tools to further their goals.  No irony, then, exists.

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Undisclosed #7

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #11 | 06/06/17 12:38am

"Economies of scale is at play. Not knowing their cost structure it is impossible to claim this not sustainable. Detroit car manufacturers made that mistake and almost went belly-up. They've learned their lesson."

What Hik has done in the N American market has 1% to do with economies of scale and 99% to do with mercantilism (not capitalism).  i.e. their ability to 'scale' exists only because of the $6B govt-funded war chest, and not because they produce 'one of a kind' products, like Apple for example.

The bolded part of your comment is sheer fantasy - if the massive spend that Hik has been dumping on the N American market were sustainable why isn't everyone else doing it?  Are the Chinese just that much smarter than everyone else?

Also, your Detroit reference supports nothing in the sentences preceding it.

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Mick Brown

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #11 | 06/05/17 02:03pm

we feel the problems in the usa are being replicated here in europe

and are reducing credit to installers as we forsee most will go bust

as hik takes the large projects direct

leaving the installer fighting the onliners for crumbs

 

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Undisclosed Integrator #10

06/05/17 12:50pm

Speaking on proven annecdote - I worked for a a US manufacturer who actively sourced products to be made in China. They did this as they realised the US had no intention of designing anything for EN or CE conformity and expected thew world to follow UL.

 

China quickly developed a fully conformal product which was then branded and sold by the US manufacturer.

This insular, narrow minded ethos typifies the US manufacturing base - and yet there is never a mention of this on IPVM.

I would also point out that this particular US manufacturer uses labour OUTSIDE of the US from a third world country to save even more $'s. 

Stones and glass houses come to mind when attacking HIKVISION.

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John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #10 | 06/05/17 12:54pm

This insular, narrow minded ethos typifies the US manufacturing base - and yet there is never a mention of this on IPVM.

The US (IP Camera) manufacturer base is very limited, with the biggest being Arecont, who we have criticized over and over for years. Since you are a new member, you may simply not have seen this but a US manufacturer has topped our worst camera manufacturer rankings every time we have done it, e.g., Worst IP Camera Manufacturers 2011, Worst IP Camera Manufacturer 2014, Worst Camera Manufacturers 2016, etc.

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Mick Brown

06/05/17 01:30pm

HIKVISION  are completely happy making cctv a commodity

why wouldnt they be 42% gross profit

sales up 21 percent internationally

they get full support of hisilicon a bit like the support dell received from intel

hik hides whats in their products saying they rd these products mainly the nvr and dvr are powered by hisilicon

then they get deals from nextchip or techpoint on analogue

getting a 6 month head start on hisilicon new 4k analogue chip

im sure dahua crying over this 

and then have no dominant installer to influence the channel

in china they already install only a question of time before they dispense with installers worldwide

why they need them

improve margins fit them self

 

 

 

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

In reply to Mick Brown | 06/07/17 04:55am

It's a 12months exclusive on the HiSilicon chipset!

And all DVR manufacturers are crying. But most tears are no doubt in the west lake of the Dahua water fountain.

As for now 4MP HD Analog is not mature, and side - side with a 2MP looks rubbish, at least from all samples I've seen.

We read on IPVM the Amazon installers skill / it's going to take a considerable amount of time for professional before this is even a %age of the market.

 

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Mick Brown

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #6 | 06/07/17 06:48am

As I understand it hik have exclusive until end of 2017

others will need to do r and d etc.

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Mick Brown

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #6 | 06/07/17 06:48am

Hikvision have their own installers

in china they do everything themselfs

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Mick Brown

06/06/17 05:59am

Hikvision will only succeed because of installers short sightedness and greed

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