"Fever Camera" Online Show June 2020 - On-Demand Recordings

By: Donald Maye, Published on Jun 03, 2020

IPVM has successfully completed the world's first "Fever Camera" show. Recordings from both days are posted at the end of this report for on-demand viewing.

Virtual Booth Format

We used a 'virtual booth' format with systems from Dahua, FLIR, Hikvision, Seek, Sunell, ZKTeco, and more setup at our test facility. We showed live how they work, where they do not work and you can ask us, live, to try out various things. So if you want to know how the systems work with hats or with people moving in certain ways or anything you can imagine, just ask and we will show it to you live on the show.

Schedule

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No Manufacturer Presentations

Unlike our typical online shows, we will not have any manufacturer presentations, simply because the volume of misinformation sellers are spreading is alarming. For example, as we do our tests, manufacturers object because we use hats or walk straight ahead, only to point out to them that this is exactly what they demonstrate in their own marketing.

Leverages Our World-Leading Testing And Research

This show leverages our world-leading testing and research, which we are adding to every week. Some of our testing already published:

And just a few of our research posts:

Questions / Suggestions?

Any questions or suggestions, please leave them in the comments or contact us.

Recorded Videos Day and 2

Below watch recorded videos of our fundamentals training plus sessions for Dahua, FLIR, Hikvision, Sunell, ZKTeco as well as handhelds from Hikvision and Uniview:

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No ************ *************

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Questions / ***********?

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Recorded ****** *** *** *

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Comments (36)

Great idea. Based on everything else I've read here, and on other well respected sites, it seems a more appropriate name would be "The Elevated Skin Temperature Camera Show." Not to be nit picky, but consistency on phrasing sounds like a good idea if as an industry, we're going to keep the snake oil salespeople out of the game.

it seems a more appropriate name would be "The Elevated Skin Temperature Camera Show."

A more appropriate name might be "Wildly Over Marketed, Significant Risk Thermal Temperature Camera Show"....

The reason we are calling it 'fever' is to be honest that sellers, whatever they call it officially, know that the intent in buying this is to detect fevers. However, problematic it is to actually detect such fevers.

We do plan to do more coverage on the general problems involved (e.g., an upcoming post - "The Problems of Fever Cameras") to help educate the public.

Makes sense to me man, especially if the title of the show opens up a wider conversation about what these cameras do, and don't do. It's been really great reading all of the articles on here about that, as well as everyone's comments.

Similar devices have been used for years in Asia - particularly Hong Kong to give an alert for someone who has a higher temperature for further screening. Given how few deaths there has been in Hong Kong I guess it must be at least helping.

While some mistaken people are calling them fever devices , most reasonable people are calling them temperature checking devices , i prefer "skin temperature checking devices"

Great to see that you will show strengths and weaknesses and i look forward to seeing all the results.

In my opinion getting feedback that someones skin temperature seems high is better than getting no feedback, but i agree that just because someone is granted access does not mean they are fever free.

Similar devices have been used for years in Asia - particularly Hong Kong to give an alert for someone who has a higher temperature for further screening. Given how few deaths there has been in Hong Kong I guess it must be at least helping.

Do you have some evidence or reports that specifically cite these devices being a major factor in Asia?

The factor much more widely stated is masks, e.g., this report from German state broadcaster: How has Taiwan kept its coronavirus infection rate so low?

Anticipating the high demand for masks in late January, the Taiwanese government started rationing the existing supply of masks. Taiwanese citizens can now go to designated drug stores across the island to line up and buy a specific amount of masks on a weekly basis. Chi pointed out that this policy has also been duplicated in other countries like South Korea and France.

"Taiwan leveraged the strength of its manufacturing sector and invested approximately $6.8 million (€ 6 million) to create 60 new mask production lines," said Chi.

"This increased Taiwan's daily mask pro production capacity from 1.8 million masks to 8 million masks. This has been called 'Taiwan’s Mask Miracle.'"

Masks strike me as a much more direct means of suppressing coronavirus than any type of fever camera, especially given asymptomatic people.

Moreover, The Guardian's article about: Test and trace: lessons from Hong Kong on avoiding a coronavirus lockdown

In a survey in March, 85% of respondents reported avoiding crowded places, and 99% reported wearing face masks when leaving home, which the authors say is an indication of their concern.

Unlike our typical online shows, we will not have any manufacturer presentations, simply because the volume of misinformation sellers are spreading is alarming.

Big props. This show could be really helpful.

Believe it or not, you had me scared there for a minute when I saw the headline. On the other hand, it would have been fun to have the manufacturers do the presentations, but with Sean interrupting almost constantly to point out where they weren't being honest...

Also live testing? Wow...

Kindly ask the questions below as part of the presentation if practical, feasible and consistent with the format of the virtual booth.

Do any of these systems provide any reliable, accurate and significant information for the prevention of the transmission of the virus?

Do any of these systems provide any reliable, accurate and significant information for the reduction of the transmission of the virus?

Do any of these systems provide the uneducated public a false sense of security leading to relaxed behavior after a screening?

Is the building owner or the business owner liable to pay (if sued) for screened employee's medical costs and pain and suffering should they become ill due to the systems providing a false sense of safety and security?

The show is focused on the technology, which is something that benefits from actual seeing live experiments.

Your questions are reasonable but leading.

No, it does nothing directly for the transmission of the virus but, maybe, depending on how many people with fevers it detects can help mitigate the virus.

Yes, we think there is a false sense of security given tested performance compared to marketing to-date.

As for the liability, we are not lawyers and, even if we were, it is a complex question. Many argue that liability is decreased by having a system like this ("hey we tried our best") but I can see the countercase ("hey you had this system, it missed Bob and now I gave coronavirus to my mom who died").

Those questions were semi-rhetorically pointed at "manufacturers." So yes, a bit leading.

Nonetheless, sorry if slightly off topic here in the virtual booth thread, but this topic is driving me nuts.

If we detect 2 fevers out of 50 screens for secondary screening, and then five people that are not febrile but are either "sick" or carriers of the virus get through screening, have we really accomplished anything?

The focus of attention must be on drilling in best practices to the population to remain virus free. Mask, distance, no face touch, sanitize, etc, religiously.

"We did something," isn't going to cut it under these circumstances of a highly transmissible contagion.

Or, we succumb to heard immunity (which would probably be quite deadly for the elderly, compromised, and who knows who else). Not good.

Until we have a vaccine and after, thermal for EBT will have near zero impact on the evolution of this mess (FDA approved or not, Black body or not, real or manipulated AI). Only peoples behaviors will.

I would only add that Herd Immunity for this particular virus is a theory not established medical fact.

proposed theme song for show:

”check it and see...”

"Come on baby, do you do more than dance?"

"Will you be ready when I call your bluff?"

Some very reasonable questions in there.

did anyone catch the Foreigner (band) "Hot Blooded" mention???

Great idea! - "Fever Camera" -

Wondering if the this craze will die off before the show? Seems like a cash grab by manufacturers if you ask me. I understand all of the coverage and appreciate all of the testing, but it just seems like such a snake oil product, regardless of who makes or markets it.

Wondering if the this craze will die off before the show?

Lol, hopefully:) In all seriousness, our goal and hope is that people become more informed and rational about what these things can and cannot do.

It is understandable that in an crisis like this that rushed decisions will be made at first but our hope is that with research, testing, reporting, education and time, things will improve.

Hi Jon,

You are mostly correct on this point. in order to be accurate for elevated temperature measurement many controls must be adhered to and an extremely high quality IR camera is required. Anything less and the effectiveness begins to plummet.

One local electronics supplier is selling the Panda Cam. In his interview on TV he makes it sound like this is the best thing since sliced bread where they have these installed at a local hospital. the video shows people walking in one after the other and a lady sitting to the side kind of sort of watching the monitor. "They have sold over 30 of these and expect to sell many more." Again this is a cash grab by a company in my opinion.

We are getting overwhelmed with the request from schools to provide a solution. They report that they are being called and called from companies claiming to have a proven solution. I wish I could get company names in the greater NYC area to blast them apart.

John,

May we get a referral link for inviting people into the show?

Thanks,

Ryan

Ryan,

They will need to have a membership before registering for the show. You can send people a free month of IPVM here. Or, you can go to your settings page, copy your personal referral link (as shown in the image below) and send it via email.

IPVM Image

Once they have accepted your invite or signed up for IPVM using your referral link, they can register for the show at this link: Register for Fever Cameras Show June 2020.

If you have any questions, feel free to email me directly at ryan@ipvm.com.

Thanks Ryan!

Do you plan to make a recording of this show available to IPVM members?

Yes, all shows are recorded and will be available the day after on IPVM.

The membership I just subscribed to is asking me to upgrade before I can download any reports. I want the reports for me to review not to distribute am I denied to the reports?

John, welcome to IPVM. You can read all the reports and watch all the videos in all reports with your membership, what you get from upgrading is a pretty formatted PDF of the reports you can already read on the site (or copy and paste locally, etc.).

Thank you

Where can I find yesterday's webinar recording? Thx

UPDATE: All recordings are available for on-demand viewing in this report.

In Mexico, the government is strongly recommending to have "fever screening" thermal cameras, as a first filter, who ever results positive whether is false or not, will be placed a side and measured with a thermometer. Problem is, most end users don't know how the technology work, and want to place this cameras outside the building, just before employees can enter. Even worst, many so called "integrators" are selling this cameras without the proper settings and controlled environment. The information you guys have gathered here is great, and everyone installing these systems should inform the end user of what are the real do's and dont's of what they are buying.

All fever camera technology is still wearing huggies.

I consider fever detection to fall under a medical engineering standard and not the typical security camera that looks for the bad guy.

The gap is huge between the medical engineering community and simple camera optics with a overlay software showing statistics.

Last, mentioned before. What if in the next pandemic your genitals are the scope of infrared thermal evaluation, then what? For some you might need a zoom lens and others a wide angle lens, arguing technical optics rules apply.

Being on the fence, F COVID-19. Pandemics are real, but data levels the playing field of the devils.

Hate, dislike whatever, however I must say....Dinosaur? Wanna get punched? BOOM, down you go. Bye felicia. BOOM!

After seeing exhaustive testing We have bought and sold dahua temperature screening system and found it exactly same as what you have shown thanks for your efforts we could choose and recommend it to our end users

thanks

would accuracy improve if person stood in front of a nonreflective screen? or maybe a three sided partition to create a more stable ambient environment

if person stood in front of a nonreflective screen?

Yes, and more fundamentally, avoid windows and exterior doors - i.e. backgrounds where the heat / lighting can vary. Such variation including people entering from outdoors increase problems with accurately measuring skin temperature as a proxy for body temperature.

I understand that using thermal cameras for temperature detection is all the rage right now, but I am hopeful that IPVM can continue to put an emphasis on other technologies for those of us like me that have little interest in "Fever Cameras".

#10, thanks for the feedback! July is still going to be heavy with fever camera coverage but we expect to trend down over the rest of the summer. We have tested over a dozen systems, which we needed to do, to truly understand how things worked and did not work. We do plan some more testing plus more investigation into bad sales and bad deployments of these devices.

However, as our 2 mask detection tests recently have shown (1, 2), we are now starting to look beyond fever detection devices. If you have any suggestions, please share.

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