Summary *******
***** ********* ****** ******* **** ***+ responses ** ***********:
- ******* ******* ****/************ ***** ********, ******* greater ********** ** ******** ******** ** integrators.
- *******, *** ****** ***** **** *** occur **** ******* ******* *** ******** manufacturers *** ******* ********** ***** *******.
- **** ** * ***** **** **** the **** ** *** ****** ** diminishing **** ** ******** ****** *** lower **** ************* ** ****** ******* and ********** ****** *** ***** ****** cost ***********.
*******: ****, ******* *** ****** **** the *** * ****** *********** ******** using ************* **** ** ** ****.
******: *********, *********** ***** ********* ***** of *******, *****, *********, *** *****.
*******: ***** *** ********* **** *** two **** ********* ************* *** *** few ******** ** ******** **********, ********** a ********** ******* ********.
Top ******: ****
**** ****** ****** ***** **** *******, where **** **** *** ** *** brands ** ****** *******, ** ** the **** ***** ***** **** *********** were ***** **** ******** ****. **** outranked ********* ** **** ***** ****** of *********** ********* **** *** ** their ********, *** ** *** ******* total (*********** **** **** **** **** - *********** **** **** **** ****).
*****, * ***** ********* *** **** in *** ****, *** ********* ** a ****** *********** *** **** ******** with **** **** ****, ****** **** Axis *** **** *********** *********:
- "****. ***** ***** ******** ***** ***** to ** *** **** ******."
- "****, ***** **** ********* *******"
- "**** ** *** *** ******* ** out ** *** **** **** *********."
- "****, **** **** ****** **** ********** on ******* ******* *******, *** ******** down ******* ** ******* **** ***** end ****** ******."
- "************* **** **** ******* *** ** models ******** **** **** ** ** niche *******."
- "****, **** ********** ****** *******."
****** ****' ***-***** ******** *** **** relatively ***** (***:**** ** **** ********* *******), *** ********** *** **** ***** more **** ****' "*****" ********:
** ******* ***** **** **** ******** this ****. ************ *** ******* ******** and ***** ********. **’** ***** ****** a ****** ***** ********* ** *** system ** **** ********** *** *********. We’ve **** **** ** *** ********* side ** *** ******** *** ******* but ***** ********** ** ** ***** surveillance ***** ** *** * ****** ask *** **. **** **** ** it’s * ******** ********.
Solid *****: ******
****** *** ** *********** ********* **** use ** ***** *****, *** * notable ****** ** ******* ********* ********* more ***.
- "****** - *** * ****** ** becoming * ****** **** **** ** can **** **** ******* **** ** gives * **** ***** *** **** compression **** * ***** ****."
- "****** *******.. *** ***** ** **** and *** ***** ** *****. *********** image ******* *** ** ** ***!!! not **** *******."
- "** *** ***** **** ** *** Hanwha ******* * ****** *******. ******* of *** ****** ** *** ****** are *******"
*** ***** *** ****** ** **** their ******** ** ***** *** ***** absorbed ** ***********, **** **** ***** hanging ** ** *** "*******" ****:
- "******* ** ****** ******* *** *******/****** in *****."
- "******* ******* *** ******* ** ******* to ****, ********* *** ***** ********* higher *** ******."
- "*******/******. *******, *****, *** *******. (**** go ** ** ********* ***** *** name ******...)"
Genetec **** *** ******
***** ***** (****** ***-**** ********* **** Genetec, *********, ***., ** ***-**-*** ******* like ********) ******* *** *** **** one **** *********** *******, ****** **** the ***** ******* ******.
- "*******, ************* *** **** ****** ** some ***** *** ***** ******* ************, in ******** ** *** ******** ** the ****** *** ********, *******, *** strategic ************."
- "******* ******** **** ******. **** ********* are ******* ** ******* ***** ***, outdated **** ****** ********* *** **** like *** ****** *** **** ***** as ****. **** ***** ** ********** easy ** **** **** * ******** sees ***** *** **** ****** ******** into *** *********."
- "******* - *** ********** *** ***** in **** ** **** **** ***** significantly ****** ******* *** ** ** terms ** ******* **** *** ***** RSM."
- "******* ******** ****** *** ******** *********. Customers *** ***** ** ******** *** systems *** *** ******* ** *** extra ******* *** ********** ********."
Hikvision - ******** *********
** ****, **** *********** ******** ***** significantly **** ********* **** ***** ***** significantly ****, ******* ********* **** * modest *** ****, ****** ****'* ****** deceleration **** ******** *********. **** ** particularly *********** ** ********* ***** *** not ***** ****** ****** ** ******/********** accounts, *** *** **** **** *** Hanwha ******* ****** ***** ** **** be **** ****** *** ********* ** become * ********** ** **** ********.
******** ****** ***** ******** **** *** most ****** ******* *********** **** *** dropping *** *****, ****** ****** ********** and ****** **** ******* **** *********** to *********'* ****:
- "*********. ** **** * **** ********** and ***’* **** **** *********. *** cyber ******** ****** ****’* ** **** concern. **’* *** *** ******* *** handled ***** ********** ****’* **** **** disappointing. ** **** **** **** * downturn ** ***** *******."
- "*********, ******** *** ******* **********"
- "********* *******. *** ** ******** ********, customers ***'* **** **** ** ***** networks."
- "*** ****** **** *** *** **** to *** ****** *** *** ***** security ****** ** *** ***** *** risk"
- "*********. *** ** ******* *** *** press ******"
- "*********. *** ********* **** ** ***** in *** ****, ****** ** ****** with *** ******** ***** *** ***** that ***** *** ****** ****."
- "*********. ******** ********, ********* ***'* ***** it."
- "*********- *** ** ******** ********."
- "*** ******, *** *************. *** ***** and ***** ***** ** ******* *********, cannot ******* ***** ** *** *** cameras **** *********. "
- "*********. *** *** **** ********* *** service *****. * *** ** ******** complaints **** ** ***** ** *** recorders *** ********."
- "********* *** ** *** **** ** platform ********."
- "** **** *********** ******* ********* ******* lines. ****** *** ** ***** ******** concerns."
- "*********, ***** ********* ********* ***** ******** private **** (*** ***'*) *** *** lowest ****, *** **** **** ***** level ****** ******* **** ****** *** manufacturers, ****** ***** ***** ***** *****."
Positives *** *********
*******, ***** *** *********. *****, * number ** *********** *** ****** ******* significantly **** ** *********, **** **** than ***** *** ********. ******** ******** included:
- "********* *** ** *** ****** **** support **** ***** ******* ******."
- "********* - *** *** *******"
- "** *** ******** ***** ********* **** than ***** ****** **'* * *** system. ***** **** **** *** ***. Despite *** ******* *******, **'* ***** easier **** ***** ** **** *** install *** ******* ******** ******. **** Dahua, ** *** **** **** *********."
- "********* - ****** **** ******** *** we *** *** ***** **** ** critical ********** ** ******* "
- "*********. ***** *******"
********, ********* **** ********* ******* ********** increased ************* *****. *** *******, **** have **** *********** **** *** ******** (e.g., *****-*******, ********, ****** *******, *******, etc.), ***** **** ********* **** **** raise ***** ******* ******* ***** *** sell **** *** ******. ****, ***** with ***** ******** ******* ****** *** board ***** **** ***** *** **** growth ******* ****** ****** *********.
Dahua - ***** **********
*********** ****** **** **** ***** **** double ***** ****** ** *****. **** Hikvision, ***** ******** ******** **** * top ****** *** *********** *** ******* less ***** *******. **** ********* *****'* general ******** ** ********* ********** ** a *****-***** *****.
- "** *** ***** **** ** *** dahua *******. *** ** *** ********* issues ** **** **** *******."
- "***** *** ** ***** **** *************** over *** **** *** ***** **** they ***’* **** ******* ** ********* quickly ******."
- "** *** ***** ******** **** ***** due ** ******* ******** ** ****. Because **'* ****** ** *** ******** it **** ****** ******** ** ****** email **** *** *****." "* ****** to ** ** * *******, ****** the ***** ******, *** ******** *** proper ********. ****** ***, **** ****** provide ** **** ***** **** **** detects *** ******* *** ******* *** firmware."
- "***** ******* ** ***************"
- "** *** ****** *** **** ***** of *********, *****, ***. ** ***'* feel *********** ******* **** **** *** constant ******** ******."
Arecont - ********* *******
******* *** ***** ******* ** ********* use ***** *********** *** ******* *****, and **** *** ** *********. **** was * ************ ***** **** *** Arecont: ********* ********* ************ ****** *******,******* ****** *** ** ******,* ***** ****** **** ****,******* ***** *** ** *****, *** ******* ***********. ** *** ** ****, ***** products **** ********* ***** ****** ** recent ***** (******* ***** **** ****,******* ** *** ** ****).
** *** ** ** ******** **** integrators ***** ******** ** **** **** from *******.
- "*******. **** **** ** ** * standard *** ******* ********* *******, *** they *** **** *** **********."
- "*******, ****** **** ***** * ** 3 *****-****** ****** ******** ********** ** quotes ** **** ** *** ** we've ******* *** ***** **** **** year. ***** *****-****** ****** *** *** be *** **** ************* **** ****** reputations *** ***********."
- "******* :) **** ** **** ****, Its *** *** ****** **** ** know *****, ********, *********** ****** ***."
- "************* **** ******* *** ** *********** customers *** **** ******* ******* ** manufacturing."
Pelco - **** ** *** *****, *** ******
***** *** ****** ****** ** **** and ****, *** *** ** *********** mentions ** ****. **** *** **** in ****, **** *********** ******* ********* movement **** **** *****:
- "*****. **** ******* ********* ** * number ** ***** ***** ********* ** Avigilon *** ***** *******."
- "***** *************. *** ******* *********** ***'* really ***** ********. "
- "*****, ******** .......******* ** *******"
- "***** - ********* ****** *****."
***** *** *** ****** **** ** hope *** *****, ** ********** ****** that *** *** ******** *** **** stable *** *** * **** ***** point *** ****:
***** ********** ** *** *** * more ****** ********. *** ***** ***** for **** ******* ** **** **** and ** ******** * **** **** friendly ********* *** *** *** *****.
IndigoVision - *******
************ *** ** ******** ** ****** increased ** ********* ***. **** ** noteworthy ********* ******* *** ******* *** been ********* ******* ** ***** ***** American ****,****** ******* **-******** ***** *********************** *********** ***** *** ** **** 2016, *** ******* ** ***** ******* are *** ***** ********* ** ********** uptake.
2018 *******
**** **** ** ** *********** ****. Can ********* ***** *** ******* **** their ********** ** ****? *** ****, Hanwha, *******, ***. ***** ***** ******** advantages ** ******** **** ********?
Comments (34)
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Nice to see indications that the industry is focusing on selling value in upper tier products listed here. There's some really great technology getting introduced into security products and it's creating a lot of opportunity for those willing to embrace it and educate their customers about it. The race to the bottom was and is an ugly business to be in.
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Undisclosed Integrator #3
Any mention of Bosch one way or the other?
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Tim Pickles
11/06/17 01:14pm
The statistics on which this article was produced were, I assume, taken from IPVM's fee paying subscribed members only?
Given the torrent of negativity, bullying and attacks on anyone supporting Hikvision, it is fair to assume that many choose not to even bother with paying IPVM for the pleasure of being vilified. This then creates an environment that will always show diminishing Hikvision integrator interaction within the forums and associated polls.
It certainly doesn't reflect whats happening on the ground - even if John thinks it does.
Put simply, there is very little point in a Hik integrator contributing anything to IPVM when they are attacked so maliciously within an atmosphere created by John (notably less so by other IPVM admins).
I'd be curious to read the IHS Physical Security Equipment & Services Report 2017 for their take on the market.
Similar publications by IHS are quite interesting reading providing a balanced view of the industry. I would especially like to draw readers attention to page 3 of their Video Surveillance Trends document regarding cyber-security that endorses my long held view that the greatest threat is from engineers, lack of basic security knowledge and customers lack of engagement in contracts that support installed systems.
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Tim Pickles
11/06/17 01:56pm
I am fully aware of how IHS work,s John - I have contributed to them several years back on behalf of a manufacturer (Napco). Yes, they do just deal with figures and trends - which in previous posts you hailed in preference of anecdote.
The limited commentary is reasonable and concise on cyber-security. Even just a small article balances the threat and points the finger at wider issues that I don't see promulgated in IPVM. Yes, IPVM digs into the technicality - but in doing so, ignores the elephant in the room (the engineer with passwords in his phone and an IT Dept with no concept of physical security).
But I do believe they have a more global perspective on the market than IPVM without the need to drill into the specific equipment's.
In fairness to Hik, even if your claim that their sales are dropping off were true - its not set against the context that you cite above that their domination restricts room for growth, you merely imply their sales are falling whilst Axis are growing. I also need to come back to the source of your evidential data - which, correct me if I am wrong, is a straw poll of your members? This is fine - but it must be accepted that this is not necessarily an accurate reflection of the state of play on the ground for the aforementioned reasons and rationale. Back to my original point - it's not what you ask - it's who you ask...
Its the nuances of your reporting. Looking at this article you opt to show Hiks negatives before positives. You opt to show many more negatives than positives. You cherry pick comments to highlight a positive as disguised slur - Hikvision cheap cameras twice.
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Tim Pickles
11/06/17 02:17pm
John, I note your comments - but they are still nuances. For instance, Hik are the only manufacturer where you have decided to sort into negatives and (sort of) positives - everyone else just has a commentary. Yes, Axis will have more integrator's reporting as the vilified Hik integrator's are getting bored of the vitriol.
Whilst I am not accusing IPVM of inventing the statements, they have been selective in choosing which to use - some would say - conveniently.
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David Delepine
IPVMU Certified | 11/06/17 04:10pm
Ok, I need to step in to make a few points:
I want to start this off by saying I am a known Dahua dealer. Until a year ago I was using Hikvision and various OEMs. Dahua does help me make money, but that doesn't mean I have to blindly follow them or support them when they are obviously wrong about something.
Now it is no secret that John, and many others, are not Hikvision supporters. However it is also no secret that John, and many others, are not Dahua supporters either. For every article or post about a Hikvision problem, there is an almost equal number of posts about Dahua problems.
What's the point?
First, your assertion that Hikvision is the only one under fire is flat out wrong. Perhaps you only read the articles with Hikvision in the title but if you look around you will see Dahua, Arecont, Knightscope and plenty of others get spanked when they deserve it.
Second, John and the whole IPVM team have been very fair and have had numerous good things to say about Hik and Dahua. When talking about price vs quality, free inclusion of premium features, etc. Don't believe me? Go back and look at the camera and access control reviews and shoot outs. Both companies have been noted for making solid products that are far below average industry price.
Third, I have never been attacked here on IPVM (maliciously or otherwise) for choosing Dahua or Hik or any other brand. The people who get the most criticism are the ones who blindly support, and worse, attack IPVM for making these manufacturer's dirty secrets public. I get it, I really do. No one wants their money maker to look bad because it may cost them, well... money! Let's be honest though, isn't it better for us to know so we can head off potential problems or be ready with a solution when something bad happens? *cough cough* hack *cough cough* backdoor
So to make a short story longer and more pointless, Mr Pickles, IPVM is not the bad guy here and neither is John. No one is picking on, cyberbullying, or maliciously attacking anyone. Btw look back at your comments half the time it is Brian replying to you and you just keep saying "John" please at least get that much straight.
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Lukasz Bucko
HI
We are using Hikvision for many Years , The problem with security and hacking that is happening its pretty much installer mistake using default passwords on the system and using Default ports , like 80 and 8000 Period .....
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Tim Pickles
11/06/17 04:45pm
I think you'll find the ongoing tirade at Marty an example of bullying. Yes, some of what he says I don't agree with either - but it seems that for a long time now, anything he posts is attacked from all angles at a level that is personal and vindictive.
You will find that the number of front page articles attacking Hik are not equal to Dahua at all. That's ok as Hik obviously has a greater market presence - I'm just correcting your claim.
Its very generous of IPVM to throw in the occasional recognition of something good from Hik - buts its usually with a barbed caveat.
You will have read that I complemented and commented on the fair revue of the access kit - but as you never mentioned it, perhaps you missed that nugget.
I'm curious - having stated that you know of Dahua dirty secrets, why do you continue to sell their kit. Do your customers know of your views of the kit you sell them? Or is it the case that the dirty secretes to which you elude, really aren't an issue at all and that you are just jumping on the bandwagon of Hik knocking?
Noted on the John/Brian comment - that is clearly my error.
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Brian Karas
To be fair he said "almost equal". You will also find that our coverage is generally rooted in other public statements, events, etc. We do not just wake up and say "let's 'attack' Hikvision today" or "let's 'attack' Dahua this week". We look at things these companies say/publish, other events involving them, and so forth and provide additional analysis or commentary around those items. In that regard, total coverage of a company is going to be tied into other things they do or events surrounding/involving them.
Almost every manufacturer (or staunch manufacturer supporter) would likely say the same about our coverage of them. We try to provide the pros and cons, and look at things that readers may not have initially considered on their own. Coverage of Hikvision has been no different in that regard.
Where have Marty's post/comments been 'attacked' by IPVM? Show me an example of that you consider to be an 'attack from all angles'.
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Tim Pickles
11/06/17 05:07pm
Almost equal is not almost at all Brian - though I assume you attacking a very liberal interpretation "almost".
Where did I say IPVM specifically attacked Marty? IPVM provides the platform whereby he can be attacked and in doing so is complicit, but I don't recall saying your directly or personally attacked him.
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David Delepine
IPVMU Certified | 11/06/17 05:18pm
So I will agree with you that Marty gets a good deal of flak from many of the subscribers and from the IPVM staff at times. However, this is usually due to Marty saying something outlandish or directly attacking IPVM for releasing those dirty secrets I mentioned (I will get to your question about my stance on the Dahua dirty secrets, but want to answer/refute things in order). Now does that justify personal or vindictive attacks? Certainly not. However I have never seen one of these personal attacks coming from John or the IPVM staff, but are from fellow subscribers like you and I.
I never claimed the number of "front page" articles between Hik and Dahua equal, my exact words were "For every article or post about Hikvision, there is an ALMOST equal number..." I was not making the distinction between front page articles and other types of articles/discussions which in recent weeks there have been A LOT of bad discussion posts about Dahua because of the hack. Lol just thinking of that reminds me of "Dahua, hacked the world over"
In several camera reviews/shoot outs I recall only good things being said about Hikvision (and Dahua) no barbed caveats. If you require proof please go back and read the reviews and shoot outs for the 4mp and 8mp cameras.
Yes I did forget about your comment on the access control article, but now that you mention it... if I recall correctly is was kind of a backhanded compliment was it not?
I continue to sell my clients Dahua because it is cost effective and provides a good value. I take steps to ensure cyber security, but some of my techs have not been as thorough and we have had a few get hacked. I do tell my clients the truth about Dahua, that there have been issues with cyber security and the occasional glitch. However I give them an option to upgrade to another brand if interested, however most prefer the price. I also must mention that our camera clients are usually not huge corps nor are they government organizations that require top notch cyber security. Back doors are serious issues, the hacks are more just annoying but not nearly as serious. The hacks are easily preventable, back doors are not (at least to my knowledge).
Anyways hope this helps clarify my statements and answer your questions. Please let me know if there is anything else :)
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Tim Pickles
11/06/17 05:29pm
I hear what you are saying and am not in total disagreement. However, my comments were not in any way backhanded in regards to the access. I think I even mentioned that I wasn't really that excited as, for my market, its not a good fit anyway.
Hacking is really not the issue in the UK as it appears to be for yourself. Of corner shops, offices and stores are being hacked - you are clearly suffering from levels of cyber attacks greater than in the UK as I am unaware of any of my installations having been hacked for the past 25 years.
I do honestly think you've compromise your integrity, at least in part, if you sell, promote and install a product that you honestly believe has had dirt secrets deliberately embedded into them. Your comment regarding the hacks being attributable to your engineers is honest and extraordinarily common place across the whole industry.
Marty can happily defend himself, I'm not here to do that. But having said that, I feel his comments are provoked and then fed upon to fuel the anti-Hik frenzy. I guess no-one will ever agree, so we'll just have to put this down to perception and what it feels like to be a minority group - Hik Lives Matter ! :-)
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