The CEO of 2M Solutions, a distributor selling Hikvision cameras under their own as well as Hikvision's brand has publicly declared Hikvision to be the "Top Rated Yet Most Hated Security Camera Manufacturer".
That CEO, Suhaib Allababidi [link no longer available], provided additional comments to IPVM. In this note, we analyze his claims and the meaning for the broader market.
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My biggest gripe with HIkvision is their complete lack of channel control.
The worst part of it is that these Chinese distributors get free rein to sell branded Hik products on amazon or ebay, yet authorized hik usa and OEM distributors are vehemently not allowed to sell on these platforms. And we cannot even buy from the Chinese distributors and resell on these platforms either, I asked already.
Completely unfair.
And we cannot even buy from the Chinese distributors and resell on these platforms either, I asked already.
Sean, what would happen if you did this? How can they stop you?
Im not sure, but i would prefer to respect their wishes. I dont want to ruin the relationship. Other than this, i have no major other gripes. I just want in on the Amazon action. Would be a great revenue stream. Their has to be a compromise or be fair and cut off the amazon sellers.
Distributors, including 2M Solutions, have commented to IPVM that similar-priced alternatives to Hikvision lack quality control, product breadth, availability, or all three. Higher-quality OEM options are not able to match pricing of standard Hikvision products, much less grey-market imports.
This is a good reason for Hikvision to raise their prices, sell value and refuse to race their domestic competitors to the bottom.
Everything is "2m Claims" or "according to 2m" or "quote from 2m". Same figure of speech throughout National Enquirer.
There are (2) sides to every story, and this is one, and that is weak.
This is not news its Smoke & Mirrors , but with IPVM it is todays Headline!
Everything is "2m Claims" or "according to 2m" or "quote from 2m".
Hikvision Distributor Says Hikvision "Top Rated Yet Most Hated"
Marty - Hikvision was asked for comment on this multiple times, but they did not provide a response.
I would be happy to include Hikvision's "side" on this, but they would have to provide some form of response. We forwarded the 2M blog post, which is public, to them almost 2 weeks ago. During that same time period they did respond to other inquiries we had, such as for our gSOAP Vulnerability, Hikvision VP of Business Development and Purple Image Problem reports/discussions.
There are no "smoke and mirrors". We have posted about Dahua distributor issues as well: Dahua Distributor Bad Breakup, and if Arecont or Bosch distributors, for example, reported similar problems we would report on those too.
Dismissing any factual negative coverage of Hikvision as "smoke and mirrors" does not help you, or them. The issues 2M cites, the lack of channel control, can impact not only distributors, but also integrators like yourself in the long run.
Thank you Brain for the reply. As a Hikvision dealer I feel that any distributors problems are just that 'their problem' with Hikvision. I do not have that same sentiments. They better watch what they say.....
Marty,
Lets take HIK out of the equation.
What will you say when your customer does an internet search and finds the cameras you have been selling him for 10% of your price?
Sure, you are allowed a mark-up.
You can tell them it's not the same, but it is the same brand and model number, new and in a box. Even if you win, you lose because they will doubt you after that.
Channel control is important to dealers and distributors, regardless of the manufacturer and large projects usually bring in some person with the internet looking at published pricing.
I love buying through the Internet personally, I just don't like being shopped on it.
What is this Hik gun used for? Looks neat.
Evidently Marty believes it is used to keep critics in line....
It's actually part of their drone / anti-drone offering, see: The Hikvision Anti-Drone Gun
Sounds fine and I understand where you are coming from. I have been there myself. Today I sell myself and the services we have to offer, not just a number or a camera. I sell my background and my company's 20+ year past performance record, I prefer not to make a sale for sake of a sale we prefer to vet customers (thats right I dont accept every one that asks for a camera) and seek more long-term relationship type arrangements and folks on that level dont pinch pennies or seek E-bay pricing they could really care less, its about service and job performance.
Channel control does matter but I not going to worry about something that I have no control over, I have more faith in the company than some.
In a perfect world Marty.
Integrators who do municipalities, school districts and Fortune 500 companies work to build a trusting relationship that benefits the client and the integrator over a long period of time.
One such integrator had one of the largest airports in the world sewn up for decades and a special relationship with the manufacturer assuring it would continue. It was by far the backbone of their business.
One day (actually a couple of years)...the manufacturer sold, the airport recieved funds to do a huge improvement (many millions) and all went out to public bid.
Today, I don't think that integrator gets more than a random service call on a orphan system there.
I would ask "How close to retirement are you" when you meet with some of those "long term" business clients.
integrator's are not losing market share to "self installers" at all. Whilst there is a grey market being exploited to the general public - these are not the customers of any reputable integrator anyway - just an expansion of the market to a domestic audience.
Channel control is also market manipulation - something that the likes of CCure and Honeywell know very very well.
We have been installing HIKVSION for over 8 years and in that time not one customer has ever said "hey - we can buy cheaper off eBay/Amazon, most probably because we set out our offering in supporting the 3 year warranty and most importantly, we choose our customers. The phrase that the the "customers knows the price of everything and value of nothing" is only true if you opt to sell to these customers.
HIK already differentiate between Chinese Grey and Europe cameras- try loading Europe firmware into a Grey import and see what happens! There is also no warranty support - a fact we make clear to all customer.
As a Channel Partner to HIKVISION, we take our responsibility seriously. It is up to us, as well as HIKVISION to promote the product, debunk the myriad of false claims and deliberate negative press and educate the buyers. Whinging integrator's clearly underestimate the intellect of their customers and their ability to acknowledges the value of what an integrator can bring. Instead of expecting your manufacturer to hold you hands and sell your goods - try being a real partner.
HIK has allowed us to expand our market base, We now bring ANPR at no extra cost to many of our installations, fantastic DarkFighter auto-tracking for a fraction of the cost and configure VMS set-ups with 16 monitor video HDMI video decoders. We have free analytics and pretty decent images easily view-able on Smartphones.
Most importantly is that we are able to INCREASE our margins considerably and allow for continual growth as the long line of innovations come out of HIKVISION.
I have previously partnered with Pelco, Softwarehouse, IndigoVision, Honeywell and Vicon - and can safety say that the level of arrogance, ignorance and abject lack of support they all demonstrate is not true of HIKVISION. They are also less reliable and more expensive - important factors when supporting an end user.
A specific gripe with many distributors is becoming increasingly prevalent - many simply want to shift boxes expecting the manufacturer to maintain forward holding of stock, provide tech support and provide the whole sell through. All this whilst promoting their "flavour" of the month. This is why Napco pulled from the ADI cartel years ago. In the UK, excellent tech support is available from the likes of DVS and eZCCTV - whilst ADI, typically, are lacking. The loudest voices rarely reflect the views of the majority and often just show their own vulnerabilities and weakness's. In the same way as manufacturer comments go unaccredited on IPVM (Glasshouses, stones??), one Distributor attacking a supply chain partner is perhaps more a comment on the Distributor themselves. At the end of the day, quality of product, distributor, integrator and customer will always shine though - which is something that neither HIKVISION, DVS, ourselves and our customers is afraid of in any way.
Marty is on the money as I know my view from this side of the pond will be shot down as usual.
The whole article is based upon a distributors viewpoint and headlined a major news story. How about an article called "HIKVISION Most Rated and Most Loved In Europe", John? I guess that would go against the grain?
Seriously, what's up with you and Marty always writing HIKVISION in all caps?
Are you copying him or were you both independently inspired?
Seriously - HIKVISION (capitals) is the correct branding. Whats the issue?
Seriously - HIKVISION (capitals) is the correct branding. Whats the issue?
You and Marty are welcome to put 'Hikvision' in all caps but even 'Hikvision' themselves use conventional capitalization in text, e.g., from their about page:
What you are likely alluding to is their wordmark, where Hikvision is in all caps, but in writing, it is not all caps, even from Hikvision.
Well there's always...
As a Channel Partner to 
, we take our responsibility seriously. It is up to us, as well as 
to promote the product...
Be careful what you wish for
we saw the writing on the wall 10 years ago
we ran from them never looked back
enjoy the dream
i will buy a bucket for
all
the tears you will have in the future
we ran from them never looked back
No offense mate, but you seem to be 'looking back' plenty.
Seriously - HIKVISION (capitals) is the correct branding. Whats the issue?
Just the fact that both you and Marty both adopted the state-owned manufacturer's branding is clear evidence of collusion with a foreign power to aid a domestic (marketing) campaign.
Which apparently is ok ;)
yes i agree this point of you from a system integration perspective
but if you break this into market segments
computer market went through same cycles
workstation business got eroded and then server market
security on cctv will be the same business model within 5 years
just keep living the dream
Tim,
Thanks for the detail feedback, very helpful and I've voted your comment informative.
A few things:
please view dvs latest set of accounts
their margins are being eroded
give it time they will be on realistic brand margins
sell more same profits maybe the end of the crest of the wave
they expect customers not to shop around its a dream
if the customer can pay them a 1000 for equipment why not buy it from their competition at 800
adi always value for money on brand
dvr ask you for the part numbers to process your order wheres the value add
they will move to IT margins within 2 years wait and see
please view dvs latest set of accounts
their margins are being eroded
Ok, I just did. Here are DVS financials through October 31 2016. Below is an excerpt of their income statement:
DVS revenue is way up, ~40%; gross margins are modestly down from 27.6% to 25.3%; administrative expenses / overhead was way up 64%.
I am not sure what caused administrative expenses to go up that much but gross margins, which are most indicative of pricing pressure are not bad.
Absolute rubbish Mick. I have no idea how you have arrived at your view, but clearly its not based on fact. We can buy from several distributors and DVS are competitive - what makes the difference is the outstanding tech support they offer, which means very little ever needs to go HIK directly - although we have that path available. DVS leave ADI way behind in terms of not on tech support but the much more important product placement - they understand what integrator are asking rather than ADI's Romanian call centre if you have turned the NVR one.
Mick - could you publish you accounts to demonstrate how much better your margins are than DVS's "eroded" figures. I'm sure they could learn from your business prowess.
What I can't comment on is the perspective of the while US market in terms of the distributors, but we must understand that the UK has a different distribution model not dominated by ADI and their manipulation of the market. But I do feel too much weight has been given to one "sour" US distributor. I wonder, what exactly did 2M invest in terms of time and effort into the partnership - or where they just jumping on the bandwagon looking for a quick buck without investing in the tech, sales and product support?
i dont think you understand a distribution model at all
its in now way the same as an intergrator
dvr debtors have risen significantly
how much have they accounted for bad debt
inventory on the increase how much is hik or dahua doing to support dated old inventory
you can order for a specific project
we declined to be a hikvision or a dahua distributor
hikvision we sold 10 years ago
we see no future as a wholesaler as a brand supplier
dahua we dropped over 2 years ago
we decided to invest in our own products which takes time to bring to market
we employ uk staff
we have invested 10 m usd in our own nvr
Really? Having distributed Napco, DSX and Continental in the EMEA for several years I possibly have a better idea than you think.
Where is you kit manufactured Mick? What brand name do you trade as?
Your own post seems to suggest you are a manufacturer, so I'm unsure as to what you are commenting in regards to distribution? If indeed, you do make your own kit in your own factory - then I can see that HIK would indeed be seen as a hostile competitor. If, however, you have a technically capable piece of competitive hardware, I'd be more than happy to look at it and how we can place it.
we started off as a wholesaler
we imported argus dvr from korea
then imported hik 12 years ago
we were their uk exclusive agent
we then used dahua
dahua thanked us for getting acceptance on pss software
then sold directly to our customers at below our cost price
we started making ip nvr before hik or dahua and helped them in the early days to get their products to market
we sell the terminator and genisys models
which 100% made by us
hik and dahua in my view are game players
we just want to work with a select number of customers
if you would like a unit i will send you one
all feed back is appreciated
Thanks Mick, you'll be aware that AData/QVIS actively approach all and sundry to install your kit - electricians being the favoured audience. I'm not sure this route to market differs greatly from what you are accusing HIK of?
Thank you for the offer of equipment - but your range of hardware does not have the flexibility of HIK that we would require.
I may have missed it Mick, but where are your NVR's and cameras manufactured?
Our nvr is made in the uk
for lower product that competes directly with dahua and hik we import from china
We only sell Qvis to installers
or sure where you got his view from
hikvision sell to everyone and his dog
now trying to cover this up
by pushing ezviz as the brand is trashsed
Nothing surprises me
you have no intrest in supporting uk
manufacturimg
leave all the jobs in china
Wrong Mick. You farm out manufacturing to China whilst I spent years promoting Conway, Tecton, BBV, MeyerTech, MAD, ForwardVision and many more.
If the UK, US, Outer Mongolia had a competitive solution that met the performance brief and allowed us to win business - we'd use it.
We use HIK for the same reason you farm out manufacturing to China - to remain competitive and in business. My patriotism goes a little deeper than your comment may suggest.
I think you should
check the money I have invested is greater than the net worth of dvs
DVS - FTSE List of UK Companies that inspire
I think we can leave it there Mick.
That's because they sell to your customers directly
we only sell to installers
Mick, just noticed QVIS being sold on eBay by MAP Security. I assume you are happy for end users to buy the kit directly (in the same way as you suggest HIK are are selling "directly"). MAP describe themselves as your official southwest distributor, so I'm a little confused. I'm not aware of any HIK UK Distributor selling to my customers on eBay. I'm also unclear how you "Only Sell To Installers" comment is valid given the mass selling on ebay to all and sundry by your authorized distributor?
QVIS Being Sold On Ebay *UK Seller*
I really don't have too much of an issue with this, except for the hypocrisy of your argument based upon myth. In a similar way as you have some of your kit manufactured in China, you can not then accuse me of not supporting the UK, when anecdote speaks louder than words.
In over 8 years of installing HIK I have never seen a shred of evidence anywhere in the world where they have sold directly to an end user - or indeed, an integrator. This is a myth and a lie that is continually touted on this and other forums. Just because a grey import comes out of a domestic market does not mean the manufacturer is shipping direct from factory to end user.
Hence the comparison with your own market model. You sell to MAP, they sell to end user on eBay. Are you willing to shut down this route to market that undermines your product in the eyes of integrators and their customers?
As an aside, a mainstream UK distributor spent many years undermining HIK in the UK (despite having some of their own brand OEM by HIK). Tales of selling direct to end user, eBay, security and all the usual hot air - UNTIL, they themselves eventually became a distributor of HIK - and now they sing an entirely new tune. Funny world isn't it? I guess if the channel gets closed down for whatever reason, we'll have a 2M style rant about how bad HIK are.
Thanks for highlighting that
We actively police this
They cant buy qvis please try ordering one
We went through this 3 years ago with the online guys
And told them to buy hikvision
We do not support customer who sell online
If you find any others we are happy to close their account
In fact this cost us 3 m in sales closing accounts 3 years ago when we actively asked them to sell hikvision
We do not have qvis distributors
We only sell qvis to installers
Your wrong about hikvision
Its no myth
In china they install themselves
Please ask polo cai or hu
They also sell on Alibaba in china with ezviz
Feel free to ask them
We dealt with hik many years ago
Under our colossus brand
But that maybe 10 years ago intresting they still use this dated old software
We don’t complain about hik /dahua /china manufacturers
We just explain their marketing strategy and goals as we understand them
I spent 3 years dealing with hikvision
Directly with all their top management
In fact I had 3 day meeting with hu in Hangzhou china
My feeling in business is products must work but their has to be a great deal of trust
You put you livelihood in your suppliers hands
we lost all trust in hik and dahua as suppliers
but were an importer/manufacturer
they over fill customers with products and then release new models and lower prices which is a nightmare for a wholeseller
one of the reason we dropped hik was that as their sole importer they wanted 200 direct installers
this impacts the wholesaler as too how much stock to buy etc...
ask dvs which customers they sell too directly
as wholeseller comes under competition ie
security dynamics / ez cctv / dvs
easy answer is to nick the end user directly
keeps you margins up
unfortunately its death by a 1000 cuts
maybe its they way it will end up
we do our best to support our partners end of
if you find anybody selling online qvis let me know we will close their account
Thank you for the clarification Mick. I worked with HIK to close down a similar un-authorised outlet last year. In your case MAP is a more serious case as they are stating:
We are an official stocking distributor of QVIS
trading in the UK since 2004!
MAP Security is QVIS's south west UK distributor
and therefore your manufacturer warranty
is valid.
There is a clear legal case here is what you say is true. They also claim you have a 1 year warranty - if this incorrect it is defamatory.
yes but we try to be reasonable
we talk first
we try remain polite as annoying as it is it will be taken down shortly
yes we banned him for 3 years
we will speak to him again
So a couple of years down the line and it seems that your politeness really worked - NOT.
Still peddling the same old cheap Chinese QVIS products, so anyone who wants it - not exactly a managed distribution model is it?
QVIS BEING SOLD TO EVERYONE AND THEIR DOG
normal 1 manband onliner
he is london when he is back to his business tomorrow he will update his website
legal to expensive in this country unfortunately
and the person your suing needs to be as rich as bill gates to make it worth while
Thanks John,
In fairness, if HIK's support was cut by half - it would still be more than Indigo/GE/ADI/Vicon/Pelco has ever given in the past. They also provide marketing support and are by far the most approachable company I have worked with. To integrator's, they will openly agree there may be issues with a firmware release, where as Pelco have a an absolute head in sand approach to their failings.
As an integrator and installer - we can only take a job at a time, as long as HIK stay with us - that will do me.
In fairness whilst you say "while it lasts", it has done so for the last 8 years with us - which is pretty good. In that time its only got better.
I hear what you are saying and would agree there may be cause for concern - but could you not turn that concern back the US and ask, how can our insular manufactures continue trading if all they can do is bitch and moan? They are happy to use OEM and move all manufacturing off-shore, so how are they in any position to criticize let alone leave anonymous comments?
Show me some Vicon/GE/UTC/Pelco innovation from the last 12 months - they are living off a diminishing legacy market and need to accept that or do something about it.
i may have missed your report regarding DVS, John - but it only confirmed what I have already eluded at and what I know - that HIKVISION makes sound commercial sense. Its good that you have recognized that and disappointing that your pet contributor 2M has not been able to harness the same potential. Could I ask that in fairness to DVS, you also show the accounts of 2M please John to present a balanced argument?
Show me some Vicon/GE/UTC/Pelco innovation from the last 12 months - they are living off a diminishing legacy market and need to accept that or do something about it.
Tim, I agree with you about those companies (well technically GE has been out of the industry for years, it's now UTC).
However, there are companies who are actively developing new products, to name just 5 bigger ones as examples, alphabetically - Avigilon, Axis, Hanwha, Milestone, Vivotek. Even those companies are challenged to deal with the government funded Hikvision expansion.
i may have missed your report regarding DVS, John - but it only confirmed what I have already eluded at and what I know - that HIKVISION makes sound commercial sense.
Actually, my point about the DVS financials is related to integrators like you. How does distributors like DVS make a lot of money off Hikvision, you make a lot of money off Hikvision (and get all this expensive local support) and Hikvision makes money? I get that Hikvision's manufacturing costs are lower, but it's not enough to cover the fact that distributors like DVS are making so much off Hikvision, that integrators like you are getting such low prices all the while Hikvision spends so much on local / Western support which Hikvision has no cost advantage on.
Could I ask that in fairness to DVS, you also show the accounts of 2M please John to present a balanced argument?
I would be happy to do so if the US required similar level of public financial disclosure as the UK but the US does not, so those accounts are not publicly available.
Thanks John,
In the UK we have worked harder to maintain the value of the product and the end solution we are delivering. I'm sure the forum will argue this, but I really believe the UK has a more mature CCTV market and installation base that goes well beyond the intensity of casinos and malls where the US has cut its teeth. We make more margin from HIK than any other CCTV product, DVS probably make more margin that it's competitors selling other CCTV manufacturers kit and we are all happy with that. I personally dislike the HIK OEM distributors selling their kit as HIK and thats my own personal gripe. I have discussed this directly with HIK and they took direct action.
My error with the GE comment - it's been a few years since I worked in the US!
It's a shame about the accounts of 2M, but i suspect there's a little more to their attack on HIK than meets the eye. What is clear, is that there is no credibility to undermining the success of the DVS & HIK manufacturer/distributor role that totally discredits 2M's post. I note that ADI were part of the tri-axis agreement with HIK.......dare I say the obvious??
I have not seen any evidence anywhere to show that integrator's (not just installers) are buying from China. This is ridiculous as they would have no warranty, long lead times and and have to pay up-front on kit. It's a simple fallacy put forward as an excuse for a distributor who has not invested and is looking to blame anyone but himself. The more you read his post (and your cover story John) the more farcical it reads.
I challenge IVPM to approach DVS to comment and balance the argument, accepting that if the do not wish to enter into a one sided debate is not seen as a negative slant on them.
I have not seen any evidence anywhere to show that integrator's (not just installers) are buying from China. This is ridiculous as they would have no warranty, long lead times and and have to pay up-front on kit.
There's a few elements to that:
That said, I am personally with you. If you are going to buy Hikvision, but legitimately authorized Hikvision and not try to save a little money to risk incurring such headaches, but look, e.g., at the Amazon Hikvision product reviews which show lots of other people are not concerned about buying unauthorized Hikvision.
I challenge IVPM to approach DVS to comment and balance the argument
@Karas, please reach out to DVS, might be worth doing a full post, a year after our last coverage.
this lacks clarity
firstly hikvision does not have uniformed pricing
nor does hikvision
they have the unique approach of what the territory will bear in terms of price
usa pays more for product than asian customers do
so they have a better depth of margin
also their overhead base is much lower
maybe an 8th of the cost to run a business in china rather than the west like uk and usa
amazon do order fullfilment
just ship to a warehouse of amazon they supply customer directly
hik sell direct in china do they care about distributors or installers ?
they see a direct model like apple
when did the usa get holly than thou
you guys done it for ever who makes money out of microsoft or intel
this lacks clarity
firstly hikvision does not have uniformed pricing
nor does hikvision
Yes, but at least it's double spaced ;)
Wrong at so many levels.
1. Pelco is cheaper in the US than the EMEA.
2. No evidence to support a cost base as an 8th.
3. They don't sell to Amazon.
4. Price is entirely uniformed dependent on the local markets as EVERY US company does.
yes i should have said dahua
Update: this distributor is taking advantage of the US Bill, with a new post: U.S. Bill Banning Hikvision and Dahua Approved by Both the House and Senate: Protect Your Business Before It's Too Late
They look to be selling to TVT products. Is that better protection than Hik or Dahua?
