Genetec Expels Hikvision

Why all the Hate To Hikviosion ? i have probably 2000+ hik cameras working without a problem with have of cost of axis , some customers dont need all the options and fancy stuff , what they need is easy system for live view and playback thats all ..

Can't help but feel you're missing the point.

Of course they will use their own brand - just as the nsa used american-manufactured routers to install back doors into.

Any product that involves cyber security that is owned or controlled by a foreign government entity must be assumed to be non-secure. Otherwise you are just kidding yourself.

China is a leading source of intellectual property theft and why would a security integrator want to introduce the potential of a corporate client being penetrated through integrator- supplied security gear. To save 50 bucks? Is it worth the risks posed?

...Genetec unsurprisingly wants to protect themselves from being implicated into any potential Chinese state-sponsored penetration.

Unless you pay them $250.

Who loses the most from this, Hik or Genetec?

Maybe we could start with the average cost of a Hik camera vs the average cost of a Genetec license.

I'm thinking the camera is cheaper, not sure.

So if half of the potential "Hik on Genetec" customers drop Hik because of the additional Genetec Surcharge and the other half drop Genetec, then in pure dollars Genetec comes out with a greater revenue loss.

Of course on a % revenue basis, the % Genetec loss is far greater.

Super simplistic, but certainly some deals will go to Genetec and others go to Hik. Also, this ignore any loss of Hik goodwill or domino effect, if others follow suit.

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Who Loses The Most From This, Hikvision Or Genetec?

With cheap labor...

Good point.

Its not fair to us that Chinese workers will accept a lower standard of living than U.S. workers. Force them to lead a life of luxury for a decade or so and we'll see how competitive their wages are then.

Well we might have a slight difference of opinion here. How do you call it if someone who is not supposed to installs malicious software on to someone else's devices.

I still would call it a hack or at least a security breach. Neigtherway should be possible.

Exactly! That is the point. How many companies in the private sector have the support, or are owned, by the second largest economy in the world? I'm quite sure the brand name companies would had kicked their butts long time ago. Is not fair competition, plain and simple. Capish!!

So in all the other manufacturing sectors, besides video surveillance, where China is also 'kicking our butts', is that because the state is subsidizing those industries as well?

Capex!!

And don't forget that they where also hacked and used for Bitcoin mining (NVR's and DVR's)

Restricted: Requires restricted camera connection part number because of increased cyber risk factors.

If they are going to use increased cyber risk factors as the reason why they are omitting support for Hikvision, why not Dahua, Axis, and Sony? If it is due to the Chinese gov link, then say so. Why the double speak?

Did I miss a memo? Are Dahua, Axis, or Sony now owned by a government?

Update: Hikvision and Huawei have been moved into a newly created 'restricted' category on Genetec's support list. The details remain the same, a waiver is need and a special license connection, but the devices now are labelled 'restricted':

These are interesting ideas but I think they would be very hard to push through.

I'm obviously not an international trade expert but I would presume that it's much easier for a country to control its defense exports than preventing imports of security-related products - even when there is a credible threat to its IT infrastructure.

The reason ITAR is enforceable is that US-based military contractors depend largely from the DoD funding. ITAR-restricted products simply wouldn't exist without DoD grants and contracts. US military contractors would never risk being barred from future contracts. Other countries don't really mind if the US exporters export less - on the contrary, it provides a chance for non-US exporters to export more.

In contrast, if the US were to block imports of some products from China, they would face internal pressure from consumers as well as from WTO, etc.

It's one thing for China to face criticisms from Trump over twitter, and another entirely to let their exports be blocked. I bet there are lots of US-based organizations influenced by China's big money that would pull strings if Trump actually tries to implement some of his promised protectionist policies.

Every UAE, Qatar and Bahrain project we bid on explicitly forbid Chinese products. China and Israel-manufactured products are typically excluded from large projects over there.

OK, then why in the movie "2012", all US politicians and rich guys stepped on the Noah's Arks built by China in order to be rescued?

You may argue it's fictional, but China is one of US's major partner, but not enemy. The real enemy to US is ISIS, North Korea, and crazy dictators that hold bombs.

China has huge trade with US, it is also the biggest customer of iPhone, Boeing airplanes, Smartphone processors, and also is the biggest American Treasury bond foreign holder, why it turns out to be enemy?

You had mentioned you believed that only ONVIF integration would be supported, have they comfirmed this?

Update from a Genetec email, no charge for Hikvision/Huawei cameras already connected to Genetec systems, an additional $250 per device for new connections:

You may have heard about changes we recently made to our Supported Devices List (SDL). Genetec has designated certain devices (including those manufactured or white-labelled by Hikvision and Huawei) as having increased cyber risk factors and requiring special handling procedures in our R&D facilities. Our customers, consultants, partners and technical publications are worried about these risk factors. And we are worried by these risk factors, too.

Genetec will continue to support these devices, but will pass along the costs and risks of integrating and supporting this equipment to end-users.

• Customers who already own a Genetec system containing such devices will need to agree to a waiver when renewing their Genetec Advantage Agreement (there is no additional charge).

• Customers who are buying a new system (or adding new connections to an existing system) will need to agree to the waiver, and purchase the special connection license at a fee of 250$ USD MSRP per connection in addition to the usual connection fee.

When will genetec officially confirm this i cant find any info from anyone

Ok I sat down, and wait for the announcement about dropping axis,dahua,hisilicon, (thanks Murat), dropping Chinese switch manufacturers, or any device manufactured in China because of the above mentioned things.

But for start I'm okay only with axis and dahua.

let's talk about how many other device will be dropped by Genetec due to vulnerability issues?

Consistency is one of the most remarkable measure of a company.

Genetec says they dropped Hikvision and Huawei due to Chinese government control concerns. As such, they have been 'consistent' in their approach since those are the two companies with video surveillance products widely viewed as being controlled by the Chinese government.

You can think they are wrong in doing so but they are not suffering from any 'consistency' issues.

John? Who told I disagree?

It is their business decision. I told, that I'm surprised that 70% of people think it will have an impact.

You can agree or not with this statement, but let's talk about a year later about this, and let's talk about how many other device will be dropped by Genetec due to vulnerability issues?

Consistency is one of the most remarkable measure of a company.

But the security industry started to be much more an "everyone knows" industry, and enthusiasts (professionals who really care) are a really few.

The post has 15,000 reads in a week, 180+ likes on LinkedIn, it's forced Hikvision to issue a formal response letter, etc. If that is what you consider 'really few', so be it.

But to cut the long story short, time will tell. I don't expect that hikvision will be 2nd or 5th next year because of this message.

Well Hikvision's revenue was ~$3 billion more than #2 Dahua's, so yes Hikvision's revenue will not fall $3 billion because of this. And since 75% of that revenue is from China, I doubt anyone in China will choose not to business with Hikvision because Genetec says they are insecure.

So impact is zero.

Saying that Hikvision's revenue will not fall $3 billion, which is what you are implying with your claim, does not equal no impact.

You are conflating your disagreement with Genetec's decision here with whether or not people care or that it will have an impact among others.

Sorry John, we are a very few.

Exactly you caught it, the audience is very important in this site, and also worldwide within security enthusiasts, I think they/we are the few people in the room. This is the reason it's one of the hottest topic.

But the security industry started to be much more an "everyone knows" industry, and enthusiasts (professionals who really care) are a really few.

But to cut the long story short, time will tell. I don't expect that hikvision will be 2nd or 5th next year because of this message. They might be the first in unit sales and in revenue as well. Business is about numbers we all know this fact well. So impact is zero. That is what I wanted to mention with all respect to your way of thinking.

On the other hand if Gentec is consistent, will remove also Axis support, as they were vulnerable for 8 years, and many times/ways as well, any company whi were/is vulnerable, etc.

Some month ago I mentioned, till almost all companies are manufacturing in China, who knows there is no any additional chip, or any HW based solution, which can make the camera vulnerable on a remote command? Who checks all the chips with hidden parts inside? Nobody. So till SW hacks can be "easily" checked with ethical hacking, or our internal networks can be easily monitored where they stream what, it's quiet easy to be on the safe side.

That is my concern, and don't care about the manufacturers owner till I can protect my network.

Security now is not just about the camera, NVR. It's about the switch, router, firewall, network monitoring, traffic monitoring, not to mention all.

John, when a system is vulnerable, and can be hacked with skills, is it important who owns the manufacturer? What if Axis is controlled by Illuminati (LOL)? Who knows?

It is interesting that 61% of IPVM readers thinks that Hikvision will lose something with this move.

1: Genetec size is not comperative with Hikvision

2: Genetec aims for a different market segment

3: There are hundredth of Genetec like solutions worldwide

4: The low to mid market segment is significantly larger than the pro

So who will lose and what?

Andy, I'm calling BS on your claim of "550+ scientists and engineers" as your website claims just over 600 total employees. Grandiose claims like this may lead others to question the veracity of Genetec's other claims.

Also, there are other reasons beyond security to isolate IP video traffic on its own network (physical or virtual). One is that it allows for network traffic to be contained so that it doesn't impact other network traffic.

Nevertheless, I do agree with your premise that there are additional costs for HikVision based upon their history, marketing methods, and company ownership.

On a side note, I'm not a fan of HikVision because I believe the overall marketing of their products cheapens our industry, and the company is able to do this due to government subsidies and a low paid workforce. Then again (and perhaps directly opposed to this bottom feeding mindset), I've also found Genetec to be overly arrogant...Case in point, you made me look up "antithetical."

Cheers,

David Coughlin

Director, Security Sales & Operations

ENE Systems

The extra charge for HikVision is likely to support administrative costs and to hedge against legal fees/exposure. Just because customers sign waivers doesn't preclude lawsuits from third parties...and even by the customers who signed the waivers.

No, definitely not billions. I don't boast about laughing all the way to the bank.

Marty I think you're missing the economies of scale, and the relative comparison of the to the rest of the technology world. Have you looked at the base+client licensing fees for things like Microsoft SQL Server, Microsoft Exchange, Quickbooks, SAP, Oracle or any other client-server based software solutions? It's not really much different. Per seat versus per user licensing, per CPU core, license renewal and ongoing.

And they have exceptionally higher volume of sales versus the pitiful few million the security world does, their R&D dollars go a lot farther. When I used to work in IT for a newspaper, initially it amazed me the amount of money we had to pay for software that seemed to do simpler tasks than mainstream software, and clunky at that. But then I thought about it, this was specialized software only a small market client would need, so the development dollars had to be recompensed over a much smaller sales volume.

I don't think VMS companies have it very easy. At least no where near as lucrative and being C-Level at Microsoft or Oracle.

Axis is not owned by a enemy!

China is a enemy of the United States, eh?

Like North Korea or Iran?

Why, because they're not a democracy?

I believe we shouldn't give one red cent (npi), to our true enemies.

Do you?

Hik' has its own serious looking iVMS 5200

Frantz, can you elaborate about what is 'serious looking' about its iVMS 5200? We are genuinely trying to understand what is so special about it. From their online descriptions and our testing to date, it seems to add a handful of mid-level functions (like software based recording, some 3rd party camera support, LPR, etc.). What major other things does the iVMS 5200 have?