Genetec Expels Hikvision

I agree that live view is "easy" after the client is configured properly, but playback in any of their clients is far from easy. Not as easy as something like DW Spectrum or even Avigilon. 

Why all the Hate To Hikviosion ? i have probably 2000+ hik cameras working without a problem with have of cost of axis , some customers dont need all the options and fancy stuff , what they need is easy system for live view and playback thats all .. 

Can't help but feel you're missing the point.

Do you really think they would be stupid enough to use an obvious brand ?

Surely, if that was their plan they would buy into an American brand and do it from a more trusted source ???

This all seems like paranoia to me. 

Possibly for the extra liability insurance and PR repair work in case something goes pretty bad.

Exactly - It is not the generic threat of hacking Genetec appears to be concerned about - it is more specifically the Chinese government using their captive company Hikvision as a door into networks , particularly US government networks, which are a large part of Genetec's customer base and Genetec unsurprisingly wants to protect themselves from being implicated into any potential Chinese state-sponsored penetration 

Who loses the most from this, Hik or Genetec?

Maybe we could start with the average cost of a Hik camera vs the average cost of a Genetec license.

I'm thinking the camera is cheaper, not sure.

So if half of the potential "Hik on Genetec" customers drop Hik because of the additional Genetec Surcharge and the other half drop Genetec, then in pure dollars Genetec comes out with a greater revenue loss.

Of course on a % revenue basis, the % Genetec loss is far greater.

Super simplistic, but certainly some deals will go to Genetec and others go to Hik.  Also, this ignore any loss of Hik goodwill or domino effect, if others follow suit.

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Who Loses The Most From This, Hikvision Or Genetec?

In 2014, I dare say that most network NVR/DVR and cameras were shipped with a default password.

So how is Hik more negligent than the others with the same practices at that time?

YES. With cheap labor and currency manipulation. Did you heard that before? Capish!!!

And don't forget that they where also hacked and used for Bitcoin mining (NVR's and DVR's).

They weren't 'hacked'.

Integrators and end-users failed to change the default credentials.

Exactly! That is the point. How many companies in the private sector have the support, or are owned, by the second largest economy in the world? I'm quite sure the brand name companies would had kicked their butts long time ago. Is not fair competition, plain and simple. Capish!!

Jon, you still cannot understand that their stated reason is Chinese government control, not individual issues?

You have made your point on this repeatedly in the thread. We are at 205 comments. I'd ask you not to repeat it unless you have new information or criticisms to share.

Still no addition of Dahua, Axis, or Sony tho....?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Christian, that's very interesting.

Your posting made me think of an interesting fact that the International Traffic in Arms Regulations ("ITAR") restricts the export to certain countries of a number of items including information and software that are primarily commercial in nature but also have potential military applications. Specifically noted on the Commerce Control List under ITAR are computers. However, these items are allowed for import from ITAR prohibited countries.

The purpose of ITAR is to prevent items from being shipped to specific countries (including China) that may use such restricted items against the U.S. Given the threat of cyber warfare and terrorism, perhaps the U.S. should consider restricting the import of these same items from these same countries as they can also be used against the U.S. within our borders. While much has been said about the difference between China and North Korea, they are both ITAR prohibited countries. Further, we have verified evidence that China has a cyber warfare unit engaged in attacks on the U.S.

Now, I'm all for global trade but, the fact is China is, in effect at war with the U.S...perhaps much like the UAE would consider themselves at defacto war with Israel.

While my first concern is that the Chinese government's support of HikiVision is unfairly driving the market lower, let's not be so naïve as to think the Chinese do not want to harm the U.S.

If ITAR were to be applied to imports and exports, HikiVision (and many other countries) would not be allowed to ship computers and peripherals or any other items that could have military applications to the U.S. It is not a stretch to suggest that IP cameras would be included in this restriction.

The following are ITAR prohibited countries:

Afghanistan, Belarus, Central African Republic, Cuba, Cyprus, Eritrea, Fiji, Iran, Iraq, Cote d'Ivoire, Lebanon, Libya, North Korea, Syria, Vietnam, Myanmar, CHINA, Haiti, Liberia, Rwanda, Somalia, Sri Lanka, Republic of the Sudan (Northern Sudan), Yemen, Zimbabwe, Venezuela, Democratic Republic of the Congo.

Best,

David Coughlin

Perfect questions at the end. Us is depends on China very much. Much more than a n avarage patriot can expect. So if China will abn out US products, or simply not manufactures on as low cost as nowdays... US and the rest of the world will start crying. Crying a lot.

$250 for each new Hikvision camera added to a Genetec system, with the money to go towards integration and support?

4,000 cameras = 1 million dollars.

Ironically, Hikvision cameras on Genetec may end up having the most robust integration and support of any other camera manufacturer.

Update from a Genetec email, no charge for Hikvision/Huawei cameras already connected to Genetec systems, an additional $250 per device for new connections:

You may have heard about changes we recently made to our Supported Devices List (SDL). Genetec has designated certain devices (including those manufactured or white-labelled by Hikvision and Huawei) as having increased cyber risk factors and requiring special handling procedures in our R&D facilities. Our customers, consultants, partners and technical publications are worried about these risk factors. And we are worried by these risk factors, too.

Genetec will continue to support these devices, but will pass along the costs and risks of integrating and supporting this equipment to end-users.

• Customers who already own a Genetec system containing such devices will need to agree to a waiver when renewing their Genetec Advantage Agreement (there is no additional charge).

• Customers who are buying a new system (or adding new connections to an existing system) will need to agree to the waiver, and purchase the special connection license at a fee of 250$ USD MSRP per connection in addition to the usual connection fee.

When will genetec officially confirm this i cant find any info from anyone

Huawei also ? We need to inform Genetec, that most of cameras has HiSilicon chip inside and Huawei is HiSilicon's mother company.

John? Who told I disagree?

It is their business decision. I told, that I'm surprised that 70% of people think it will have an impact.

You can agree or not with this statement, but let's talk about a year later about this, and let's talk about how many other device will be dropped by Genetec due to vulnerability issues?

Consistency is one of the most remarkable measure of a company.

Security now is not just about the camera, NVR. It's about the switch, router, firewall, network monitoring, traffic monitoring, not to mention all.

Agreeing 100%. True the camera must be secure but in this increasingly IOTified world (Internet Of Things), Cyber Security can no longer be an afterthought and it is becoming more and more our responsibility we, the integrators to insure the security of the networks we connect to the Internet. This can be seen as either an opportunity or one additional threat and burden. IMHO it is both: With price of cameras plunging to the abysses (thanks in large part to Hik) and hardware price in general following the same trend, we are left with the real but serious and challenging opportunity of providing Security to the .. Video Security systems to boost our revenues and restore our margins to healthier levels. Not a given, not easy but the potential windfalls are quite interesting IMO and IME.

Genetec sending out this "message" to an almost empty room

No. The attention this topic is getting is extreme. We track stats carefully on every topic we cover and this Genetec / Hikvision one is in the top 1% of all topics.

As for people 'not concerning Hikvision as a PRO manufacturer', I am sure there are many people who are not concerned. But with 720+ votes, 72% of members say Hikvision devices are untrustworthy. That's pretty sizeable. I do suspect that some of this breaks down by region (e.g., people in the US are much more concerned than people in Hungary).

There are hundredth of Genetec like solutions worldwide

No. To get to 'hundreds', you would have to use the very general category of video management software / recorders, i.e., Blue Iris, Dahua NVRs, Nestcam, NUUO, ZoneMinder, etc.

Genetec is really more of a command and control offering, with their own video, access and PSIM all in one, internally developed. For most users, this is overkill and irrelevant but for mega customers, Genetec is one of the top choices among very few real options.

But, as for why people think Hikvision will lose, I suspect it is more about the signaling effect than direct sales from Genetec, i.e., Genetec is sending out a negative message about Hikvision that could hurt other sales.

That said, as I have noted in other places in this thread, Genetec definitely has risk, especially if Hikvision continues to move up market. Hikvision could make life very difficult for Genetec in that scenario.

You can't seriously be comparing a one off exploit that was easily blocked with security features to Hikvision numerous hacks?

No you cannot seriously compare them.

Did you know that for 8 years virtually every Axis camera in the world contained a vulnerability which could have been exploited, as long as the camera was accessible either by LAN or WAN, to take complete control of the box?

• 8 years
• Nearly every Axis device on the internet
• Full control

Hik had two vulnerabilities that I'm aware of. The first was a buffer overflow exploit in some NVR's open source RTSP code. It was patched long ago.

The second was when they released an ios app built with hacked tools. They pulled it as soon as it was discovered.

who sent out the memo we trust Genetec?

The extra charge for HikVision is likely to support administrative costs and to hedge against legal fees/exposure. Just because customers sign waivers doesn't preclude lawsuits from third parties...and even by the customers who signed the waivers.

That's a lot of rolls of change in profit to deposit.

No, definitely not billions. I don't boast about laughing all the way to the bank.

Axis is not owned by a enemy!

China is a enemy of the United States, eh?

Like North Korea or Iran?

Why, because they're not a democracy?

I believe we shouldn't give one red cent (npi), to our true enemies.

Do you?

Important to take into account that Hik have already big experience in software development. In China market they are kind of Avigilon, providing complete systems for any projects. They don't want to cooperate with open platform software in China, because they believe that their software is the best. They understand that hardware is commodity and to differentiate themselves in future they need strong software (and this is a threat for Genetec). But truth is that they still need to work hard to make their software acceptable outside China. Very interesting to see IPVM's report about current state of Hik's software.

Hi

• Not so simple when you have to re-trained your techs and get them to be fluent in the new VMS.
• Not evident who's going to beat the cost of the conversion to the new licenses. You can't just dump the old licenses and have them replaced by the new VMS.
• Training the customers to perform their usual task through a new GUI, far from evident and potentially costly sometimes the customer will oppose the move.

3 out of many other reasons that would make it difficult to jump to another VMS.

I think Genetech is painting itself in a corner. That kind of political (?) statement may not play too well in this increasingly interdependent world. That is what I alluded to when I posted about the irony of using Chinese made wares to take a position against a Chinese company. They (Gen) better not use an Apple phone or even a Cisco phone in their HQ or make sure the routers and Ethernet switches they use in their network is not made in China ...same for many of those agreeing with Genetech position happily typing it on their Chinese-made keyboards, PCs, home routers ... The position of denying one particular Chinese company may have on the surface some semblance of High Ground but it is quixotic ..

We must in passing remind those in IT and now in Video Surveillance that a few years ago Microsoft software were very porous ( I am being charitable) in term of security... That didn't stop Microsoft from having close to 90% of the WOrld market in PC OS and perhaps in application too.

On another front John mentioned that Hik revenues are 75% from their Home country fine but that still leaves $1 Billion from everywhere else. That is still several times the revenues of Genetech.

Meanwhile Hik' has its own serious looking iVMS 5200 and its price would make many VMS makers, lose some sleep and worse.