CPSE 2017, the largest security-oriented exhibition, held in China, has wrapped up.
Inside we cover some top trends from the show, including:
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I find it hard to believe that Hikvision would be able to put police force / court against IPVM employees and even if they can, it would be a much larger PR crisis and huge backfire on themselves.
Hardly a successful company would harm one's own business just to 'retaliate'. Let alone the uselessness of this 'retaliation' and even if they want, they can't.
Keep in mind, you are the same person who just last week had no idea about the Chinese government jailing media, blogger and social media critics, e.g.:
And it is not limited to their own people, they detain Western journalists regularly.
To be clear, I do agree that Hikvision / China would have risks but (1) they are angry now and the language they are using (i.e., 'most outrageous' and their "offensive rhetoric about China and the Chinese people" accusations) is consistent with the justifications the Chinese government uses to detain, imprison, harm their critics.
Gee John chill.
I am the same guy indeed.
All I am saying is it is hard to believe if Hik will or can do this to IPVM.
No matter what they say but what did IPVM do/post can trigger that extreme level of action? I for one do not recall any.
Have I say anything about if this will/ will not happen? How will I to be able to know that?
I treat this forum as a place to gain and share knowledge. It is okay for people want to rebutt/argue, I just want to express what I think. After all debating in a forein language with long time security professional like you is simply too hard for me. Gaining more info from y'all is what I am after to understand things better is my goal.
HIK Vision = Chinese Govt owned
HIK Vision is upset with IPVM = Chinese Govt is upset with IPVM.
Communist regimes have done far worst to their critics in the past. It is called suppression. I am 100% with John; had Ethan, John, etc visited the show, this article would’ve been about their disappearance.
Hahahaha bro good one!
Let me follow your example:
HIK Vision = Chinese Govt owned
HIK Vision is upset with Dahua= Chinese Govt is upset with Dahua.
Hisilicon supplies Hik's competitor = Hisilicon is supplying Chinese Govt's competitor.
....
I think I know what our next topic is gonna be.
HIK Vision is upset with Dahua= Chinese Govt is upset with Dahua
That's a flawed analogy, especially in its implicit comparison to IPVM.
Dahua is a Chinese based manufacturer and they benefit China both by their own domestic offerings and by their export business (the PRC wants strong exports as it strengthens their national position). By contrast, IPVM's benefit to the PRC is zero.
Also, keep in mind, Dahua does not publicly criticize the Chinese government and criticizes Hikvision public very rarely and at best indirectly (e.g., Dahua Attacks Hikvision 2014). If Dahua China executives were to make public critical remarks of the PRC or Hikvision's control by the PRC, they would be inviting substantial amount of problems.
I don't think the implication that was meant (at least I hope not) was that Hik would have an arrest warrant put out on IPVM staff. I think what would be more likely would be the government would do so of their own accord due to the criticisms, but that would probably only be when someone at Hik tipped them off. The government has pretty big fish to fry already and IPVM is just a small minnow. Even though I'm sure the staff have their names on a list somewhere now, as all of us probably do.
I think the possibly of them being picked up would have been extremely low. But with even a 1 out of 20 chance of being picked up, in a foreign country with a far different viewpoint of due process than we have, is an understandable concern.
that Hik would have an arrest warrant put out on IPVM staff.
That's funny! China does not need arrest warrants.
People just get 'detained' or 'disappear'. I am sure Hikvision will be angry reading this and feel it's unfair but that's just the reality of how their owner, the Chinese government, works.
If Undisclosed Manufaturer #1 is Undisclosed how does John know who wrote what. Not so undisclosed after all......
Hikvision and Dahua had the same size booth going by the floor plan. Fact
Hikvision booth highlighted in Red (1 of only 3 in Hall 1 others being Seagate & 3onedata). Note Dahua not highlighted on the CPSE 2017 Guide Map. Fact.
Hikvision banner by far the biggest banner hanging from the hall roof. Dahua didn't even have one as far as I could see. Fact.
Unable to see much of Hikvision's booth it was so jammed packed ALL the time. Fact.
Donald Trump and his Fake News must be spreading
waiting, waiting, waiting
If Undisclosed Manufaturer #1 is Undisclosed how does John know who wrote what. Not so undisclosed after all......
His identity remains undisclosed to the public. However, all undisclosed poster identities are visible to IPVM and always have been. That's why we call it undisclosed and not anonymous. Referencing his previous comments does not disclose him, it simply provides context to his claims.
Hikvision banner by far the biggest banner hanging from the hall roof. Dahua didn't even have one as far as I could see. Fact.
Donald Trump and his Fake News must be spreading
So you think we are biased for Dahua? Have you not seen our reporting on Dahua? :) (1,2,3,4, etc.) As we noted in the report, we did not attend and are basing this on a source's information. As such, we cannot definitively say if you are right or wrong about Hikvision's signage. We did ask the source for feedback on your response and will post when provided. Thanks for sharing!
I just spoke with our source who was at CPSE.
He stated that the show was crowded in general, many exhibitors had packed booths, including Hikvision and Dahua. Nothing noteworthy overall in that regard.
Hikvision's banners were above their booth, similar to many other exhibitors, and not indications of additional sponsorship or extra visibility in high-traffic areas, such as the show entrance where the Dahua banners were. From the image below, even though Hikvision is far off to the right, their banner looks about the same as the others:
Hikvision did have a sponsorship of some kind on the back of the map (other side is the floor map):
I was at the show and the Dahua stand was bigger than Hikvisions and the article is correct in that as a major sponsor Dahua had a much greater branding presence. So IPVM are correct in thier article.
I do find your comment around your fears of being imprisoned a bit far fetched however John.
Its dissapointing you didn't make it, as you would have seen some very innovative product like our drones, deep learning city safe product, fire fighting robots, intelligent warehousing and logistics product, our slim bezel curved OLED commercial video wall monitors and much more. Hopefully we can get the product out to the western market very soon.
Please tell me that’s the aspect ratio, not the price!
Sorry to those that told me not to post you were right.
Facts are facts but only If not wearing USA glasses
What does the USA have to do with this post? Please let me know.
Also, we encourage you to share your own pictures from the show. You can post them as a comment here.
Can someone educate me on how to upload photos? I am happy to share some that I took.
Tony -
Click this icon in the editor and you should be able to upload pics. I would recommend resizing them before uploading if they are very wide.
I went to the show to both see existing suppliers & look for new products. Both parts of the trip were OK. A few things
1/ Booth babes, booth babes everywhere
2/ Loud - so many stands blasting music etc
3/ A lot of consumer orientated products.
4/ Trip hazards everywhere, have they not heard of overhead power leds
5/ Did anyone else notice the chained closed fire doors?
6/ AI & facial recognition were the 'themes' of the CCTV hall
Appears I am unable to upload photos from a phone I'll have to wait until I get back to a PC
Here are a few few photos of the show floor. I would say, for me, that the single most impressive (and surprising) thing was the SCALE and incredible attendance of the show.
Another poster mentioned that he thought the Dahua booth was bigger than the HIKVision booth - I have no idea how he could tell once on the show floor. They were both massive booths. And it was practically impossible, at least in the first 2 days, to spend any kind of quality time inside those booths without being shoved and pushed around by the sheer number of visitors.
If we compare to ISC West in Vegas, the major difference is in the number of visitors: 130,000 for CPSE and 30,000 for ISC West.
If you cram all those people into approximately the same number of booths (1100 for CPSE and 1000 for ISC), then you can understand what you see in these photos:
This is inside the Dahua booth. It was as busy outside the booth:
This is outside the HIKVison booth. It was as busy inside the booth:
This is the corridor you faced as you entered the show floor. HIK, Dahua and Uniview were all in this corridor. It was uncomfortable walking in this crowd, there were simply too many people:
These are a few photos from the top of the escalators leading to the 2nd floor:
#7, thanks, very informative.
Question: with that level of traffic, packed people and noise, how does one get information and conduct thoughtful conversation? Curious how you navigated that.
#6 here, It was hard work trying to hold any form of conversation, mainly due to the noise & the crush, but also due to language barrier.
Many of the larger booths had an upstairs lounge area which was marginally quieter & less crowded. I found I achieved more on the last day than the first 2. Mainly due to less people around.
The first day was incredibly busy all over the show floor. It was very difficult getting any information, even in the smaller booths. A major issue is that there are generally only one or two English-speaking employees per booth. I found that i began every approach to a booth with « do you speak English? » so that they could point me to someone I could talk to. Many booths had no English-speaking employees.
We basically skipped the main corridor on the first day (it would have been impossible getting any type of technical demo from any of those exhibitors that were in the main entrance corridor in any case).
This is definitely a show that requires 2 FULL days (at least) to go through. I found myself skipping through sections because the product type were repetitve (there were, I would guess, about 20-30 booths with drones; at least another 50 booths that had physical barriers/gates; maybe 20 large booths selling « safe city » products or concepts; a large number of booths showcasing deep learning and facial recognition (acurately guessing your gender, age (depressing for me, it seems I look my age...) and identity).
There are also a great number of booths that address the domestic Chinese market only. While their products can look very interesting (such as the deep learning or Safe City platforms), they do not have any English staff nor English information. Of course this is understandable given the scale of the domestic Chinese market but it makes the show less interesting for foreign visitors.
The impression I got was that I was visiting an exhibition that is 1-2 years ahead of what we see in North America. I will definitely be coming back in the coming years- it was quite successful for us since we found some interesting new products to complement our offering
The impression I got was that I was visiting an exhibition that is 1-2 years ahead of what we see in North America.
Ouch!
I wonder what is the ratio between people who waste the manufacturer time to people who actually can generate business or what is the quality of the crowd.
At different booths I went to that I had dealt with before I asked other than Chinese what Nationalities was the most real interest from they basically all came up with the same top 3 being Indian, Russian and American in varying orders. Yet I didn't notice them as standing out in the crowd.
All the real demonstrations and deals are done after the show on Wed afternoon, Thursday and Friday when they invite you to their factories. All the Chinese companies use JIT ie "Just In Time". They rarely carry stock. It is made to order.
Rarely do they have samples at the show to purchase. They will make it and hand it over when you visit their factory or deliver to you at your hotel a few days later.
1) I am working for a North American manufacture based in China. Hardly believe IPVM did not go to China due to Hikvision or the Chinese government? Any evidences?
2) I just cannot believe someone said "HIK Vision is upset with IPVM = Chinese Govt is upset with IPVM." I am not a big fan of Hikvision or Dahua and I have been living in China for over 30 years and I just cannot believe Westerns know very little about China. Please come and see by yourself not just imagine; I think most of IPVM members never visit China but said very bad things about China just because the products made in China are too good?
3) In 5 years, China manufactures will dominate the CCTV market worldwide no matter you agree or not. We will see.
Hardly believe IPVM did not go to China due to Hikvision or the Chinese government? Any evidences?
As I stated above, they are angry now and the language they are using (i.e., 'most outrageous' and their "offensive rhetoric about China and the Chinese people" accusations) is consistent with the justifications the Chinese government uses to detain, imprison, harm their critics.
If you are looking for evidence like a PRC official sent me an email saying they were going to arrest me if I came into the country, that is silly. We both know the PRC is clever than that.
We know more than you give us credit for and the PRC's willingness to punish their critics is unfortunately well established.
As for 5 years, China might dominate the world or they might be a bubble that implodes. As you say, we will see.
John, I respect you as IPVM is very successful forum and we learned a lot from the articles. However I am a bit upset you now are more like politician or you just want to make some noises on your website to make more money. You are similar to other Americans who do not like Chinese or China for unknown reasons. Mostly because the media or US government are wrong about China and they do not want to recognize China will be the number one country in the world. I got US citizenship and moved back to China many years ago and I have been very successful so far. I see Americans are talking about human rights and other things in China. Nothing is perfect. Be open mind and you can always learn from others.
#9, you did not respond to my specific argument, you just engaged in an ad hominem attack.
If you are successful in China, that's great. That is not a counter in any way to the specific concerns I listed.
When you move back to China, we can assume you have renounced your US citizenship?
As PRC does not recognise dual nationalities. Under China laws you are either Chinese or another national and not both, if you are making this claim, then you are in fact breaking the law in your own country. This has been the law since 1980 I don't know if you say many years means 37years ago!
I only mention this so other people can understand this.
Just so everyone else knows, which I am sure you already do.
“I’ve got three passports, a couple of visas, you don’t even know my real name.”
Thank you for your attention, Integrator #3...But sorry you are not my type.
The exhibition was really HUGE, both in terms of size/exhibitor companies and also attendees. Surely one of the reasons is because so many companies working in the CCTV field are based in the Shenzhen and Guangzhou area. As a result this show is becoming a leading trading event for the security systems business.
There were 9 halls in total where exhibitor companies were grouped by the type of systems and/or vertical market applications they offered. Roughly speaking some 60% of the exhibition was focused on CCTV, 25% - access control, 10% - home automation/alarm/consumer electronics, 5% - police equipment, drones and others.
Hall 1 was the main international/oversea area for CCTV where all major players had booths with Dahua having probably the biggest area, followed by Hikvision, Uniview, TVT and others:
As others pointed out - AI was definitely the main theme with most of the companies showing deep learning products, face recognition, LPR, classification, etc. Both Hikvision and Dahua exhibited a complete lineup of such products:
TVT was showing a face recognition IP camera + NVR combo:
Others were demonstrating software solutions:
Hikvision and Dahua were also emphasizing on the non-video products - video intercoms, access control, UAV and others:
Portable Speed Measuring Radar
Doorlocks with embbeded biometric reader:
Deep learning Dual lens traffic camera:
Second tier Chinese companies tried to make their presence noted as well:
JuFeng/XM:
Hall 9, 6 and 7 were home to smaller manufacturers producing all kinds of CCTV accessories, gadgets, strange type of industrial cameras (laser pan-tilts, Ex-proof), network PoE switches, converters, power supplies, brackets etc.
Hall 9 overview:
Various strange interesting products could be found:
And also some quite useful gadgets and accessories:
4-in-1 TVI/CVI/AHD/CVBS converters video-over-fiber:
4-in-1 TVI/CVI/AHD/CVBS modulator being able to transmit 2 video signals over 1 coax cable:
Various network appliances suited for CCTV use like industrial PoE switches with ring capability; Ethernet over coax; Ethernet + PoE over fiber products:
Hall 7 overview:
Hall 3, 4 and 5 were dedicated to access control systems and there were all kinds of products including IP access control systems, biometrics, parking systems, barriers, bollards and others:
At many booths visitors could buy samples or get bargain on "hot" products, big commercials were present in many places - like this poster at the entrance advertising a PoE switch for merely 109 RMB (roughly 17 USD):
There were many other specialized product offerings like UAV/drone systems, video wall appliances, structured cabling systems. The main halls were packed with people almost all of the time making it difficult to talk in details with the exhibitors. Nevertheless, the sales people were making their best to meet and give proper information to the booth visitors, especially upon seeing an international oversea visitor going to their booth. A full and effective visit of this event requires 3 days in my opinion. I missed the first day and I also had some pre-arranged meetings with existing suppliers and other people from the CCTV industry in China which I personally know, which made time for me even less. The visit though is definitely worth it, the scale and variety of products are amazing and this is really a primary source for insight of the things to come in the following years.
After the show I flew to Beijing for a meeting and factory visit of another partner - there I could understand why the CCTV market in China is getting so huge - where else can you find a single metro entrance point or a street pole with PTZ cameras overlooking each other :)
Good pictures! I'm getting flashbacks of CPSE 2015.
One interesting thing in your Beijing photos, the PTZ cameras on the pole are two Axis and a Pelco, and one I'm not quite sure of. Most people are surprised it's not all Hikvision or Dahua.
But this was pretty normal from what I saw. There were a lot of western brands on the streets in Shenzhen, less in Hangzhou, but still present. I don't know if I'd say it was a majority, but it definitely wasn't a small minority.
Very nice thanks If you ever decide to have your own blog let me know, please:)
If one wants to fly to China to looks for products and just tour the factories.
What city in China host most of the security industry factories?
Hikvision, Dahua, and Uniview are all in Hangzhou. Shenzhen has a lot of smaller manufacturers, with some larger names like TVT, Sunell, and chip manufacturer HiSilicon. And more.
So it depends on exactly what you're looking for, but for sheer quantity, Shenzhen is it.
Update: One other important reason we did not go to China, and something we can now disclose, was that the WSJ was working on and now has released an investigation into Hikvision.
We did not know when it was going to be released or what exactly would make it into print but we knew they were asking about government ownership and cybersecurity issues, so we were concerned that if it was to be released while we were in China that this could increase security concerns and place us in a bad situation. Now that it has been released and it did go into the government ownership and cybersecurity as well as citing us, the risk remains for us. I would not say we would never go but we would certainly be very cautious about going.
Now, China-based IPVM members, please let us know if we are overreacting.
About your concern, if the report has or maybe ready to release. Most of the action PRC will only not allow you to get into our country. Because you or your colleague's name might put in on the watch list or black list.
So, I can't say you are over react, but I understand your concern of your thought. Keep up the good work and stay in touch.
Greeting from Hong Kong, CHINA...:-)
