Axis: "No One Wants To Buy A Camera"

By: John Honovich, Published on Nov 09, 2018

Axis has, in its own description, made a bold declaration:

The industry is changing so rapidly that the following statement might seem bold but it’s true. No one wants to buy a camera.

This statement underscores a number of material problems:

  • The issue with many just wanting to 'buy a camera'
  • The problem with Axis marketing edge analytics
  • The bigger problem with Axis ineffective marketing strategy

Inside this note, we examine them.

**** ***, ** *** own ***********,**** * **** ***********:

*** ******** ** ******** so ******* **** *** following ********* ***** **** bold *** **’* ****. No *** ***** ** buy * ******.

**** ********* *********** * number ** ******** ********:

  • *** ***** **** **** just ******* ** '*** a ******'
  • *** ******* **** **** marketing **** *********
  • *** ****** ******* **** Axis *********** ********* ********

****** **** ****, ** examine ****.

[***************]

*******

**** ** **** ************ call * '*******':

*** **** ****** ** a ********* **** ** apparently ******** *** ******** asserts * ********** ** one ***** *** ********* meaningless ** *******. *********, a ******* *** (** least) *** ********: *** that ** **** *** trivial, *** ******* **** sounds ********, *** ** essentially ***** ** *********** and ***** ** "*****-**********" if ****.

** **** ******* ********:

*** ******** *** **** a ******, **** *** be ****** **** ************ their ****** ******** ****** with *******, *** **** they’re ****** ******* *** is * ******** ** a *******.

***** *** ***** ** trivial, **** **** ************ here ***** **** ******* issues.

Just '*** * ******'

*****, **** ** ****** just **** ** '*** a ******'. *** ******* Dahua *** ********* **** is *** ****** ** use *****'* ****** ********* or ********* ******** ********. They *** ****** * camera **** ******** ******* video ** *** ****** cost ** ****** ******** options.

**** ** ********* **** Axis ***** ** *** and ****. *** *** Axis ******** ******* ****. For *******, ******** ~$*** ********* (******)** **** '* ******' but ** ******** ******* video ** *** ***** connected ** **** ** use ********. *************, **** fails ** ****** ** offering **** ***** *** the **** '* ******' crowd.

Axis *** **** *********

*******, **** **** ** and ** ***** *** value ** **** *********:

****-***** ********* *** ** the ******** ** *** problem

**** ****-***** ************

****-***** ********* *** ** installed ** ****** *************** video, ********* *** *** case *** *** ***** into ***** *****.

*** **** ** **** for ******** ************* ** seek *** ****-***** ***** analytics ************—*** ***** ******* them *** ******** *********** with ****.

** ********** **** **** ************ **** *** *** very ****. *** ***** Axis *** ****** * decade ******* ******** ** app ***** *** **** analytics (*.*., ****), **** too *** **********.

Ineffective **** ********* ********

**** ********* ** ***********. From ******* ** *** results ** ***** ********* strategy, ** ******* **** have **** ** ** is, ** ****, **********.

** ********, ********* *** a ***** ********* ******** - ******* ** **** cybersecurity ************** *** **** as **** ******* ************* posts ** ******** ** distract ****** **** *********’* ownership *** ******* ** the ***** ********* *****. *********, ****, *** ** is *****.

**** *******, ********* ** consistently ******* ********* ******** for *** ******** ** their *** ****** ***** channels, ******** ************, ****** events, ***.

**** ****, **** ****** announce ***** ******** **** once *** **** **** do ** ** ****** done (****** ******** ** **** at *** **** ****). **** **** ************ and ******** ** ***** like ‘** *** ***** to *** * ******.’

******* ****** **********, ********’* marketing, **** *** *** new *** ************ **** clear *** ******* ******* with ***** ******* ***********. Originally, ******** ******* ** image ******* (****** ‘*** Best ********’) ** **** marketing *** ***********. ***, Avigilon ******* ** ** / ***** *********.

*** **** **** *** Axis *********** ** **** Axis ********* ** ********** market ******** ************* ** beat **** *** ***** who **** ** '*** cameras.'

 

Comments (39)

Undisclosed Integrator #1

11/09/18 02:39pm

****** *******...

"****** **** * ******** more **** * ******"

"**'** ******* **** ***** solutions"

"****** **** ** *** more **** **** * camera"

"****** *** **** **** just * ****** [**** Axis]"

"*** **** ****** ** we'll *** **** **** dog"

 

 

 

Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

11/09/18 02:41pm

* **** ** ***** with **** ****.

**** ********* ****'* **** enough ** ***** **********. Many ** *** ***** that **** ********* *** edge ********* *** ** getting * **** ****** because *********** *** **** and * **** ** created ****** ***** ***********. The *** ** **** analytics ** ************* *** weaknesses *** ********* *** customer ***** ** ***** using ****. *'** *** high ******* ***** **** crossing, **** ********* *** loitering *** *** ************ I **** **** **** create ******* ** **** false ******. ************* **********, sensitivity, ******** *** *** all **** ** **. It ***** * **** degree ** ********** ** get ** *****, *** it *** ** **** and *** *** **** loves **. ** *** next *** *****, **** analytics **** **** **** better *** *** ******* such **********.

****** **** * ********, not **** * ******. The ******** *********** **** as *** *** **** and **** ******** ** video ******** ******** ********* like ****, **** *** Hanwha ********* *** ******* being ********** ** **** intrusion *** **** **********. I **** ****** ***** that ****** *** **** they **** **** * camera, ** ******** ** the ******** ** * solution ** *********** ***** a ******** ***** **** more.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #2 | 11/09/18 02:49pm

********* ********, ****** ** good ************* ** *******.

******* *********** *** **** and * **** ** created ****** ***** ***********.

***, ******* '***********' *********** like:

  • *** ******** ***** *** difference ******* **** ***** and * ******
  • *** ********* ***** *** difference ******* ****** *** a ******
  • *** ********* ***** *** difference ******* ******* ** the ****** *** * person.

*****, *** ****** ******* Nest ******* **** ******** does *** ****** ** this **** ****, ******, Hikision, ***., *.*., ******** ** ****** ********* Shootout - ****, ****** / ****, ****** / Ring, ********* / *****

************* **********, ***********, ******** etc *** *** **** of **. ** ***** a **** ****** ** experience ** *** ** right,

** *** ***** **** your ********* ****. **** degree ** ********** ****** poorly *** ****** *********** customer ********. *** ***** stats ********** ****, *.*., ***** ********* ***** ********** 2018

** *** **** *** years, **** ********* **** work **** ****** *** not ******* **** **********.

*********. ****** **** **** saying **** *** ****, many *****. *** **** *** ***** 2012 *** ***** ********* *** we are *** ** *** end ** ****.

* *** ******* ** marketing ** ******** **** marketing ** **** *******. Your ********* *** ** sizzling *** ******** *** if *** ******* **** not *******, ** **** not ****. **** ** Axis ********* ****.

Undisclosed #3

11/09/18 02:57pm

* ***** *** **** thing ***** **** ****' statement ** **** ******* too ****.

****** ***** ** *** a ******. ** * VMS. ** ** ****** control ******. ** * fire *****. ** *********.

** *** *** ** the ******** ** ******* cool, ****** ******* *********. What ** *** ******* is ****** ** *********. People ********* **** **** it, *** ****'* ****** be **** ******* ** there ******* * ******** where **** ***** *********** assert **** **** ***** put **** ***** ******* something **** ********* *** themselves ** ***** *******.

 

 

Avatar

Clint Hays

Intelligent Security Systems - ISS | In reply to Undisclosed #3 | 11/09/18 03:07pm

******** * *** **** selling ******** ********* *** the **** ******** *** hurdles ** ******* ********* and ** *** **** the **** ***** ** excitement.

 

* ********** *** ****** of *** **** ********* and * *****. *** value *** **** ** a ******* ****** ** more **** ******** ******** video ***** ** ******, and **** ** ********** possible **** "****** * camera" *** *** ********* doesn't ******* ****** **** feeling.

Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

In reply to Undisclosed #3 | 11/11/18 05:46pm

******'* ******** ****. ****** systems ******* ***** ** mind, *** *** ******** intelligence. ** *** ***** a ***** **** *** your ******** ***** ***** they *** ****** *** spending **** ***** ** something ****, *** *****'* done **** *** ** a ***********.

Undisclosed #6

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #2 | 11/11/18 07:21pm

** *** ***** * sales **** *** **** customer ***** ***** **** are ****** *** ******** that ***** ** ********* else, *** *****'* **** your *** ** * salesperson.

** *** ** ** the *******?

 

Undisclosed #3

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #2 | 11/11/18 08:38pm

******'* ******** ****. ****** systems ******* ***** ** mind, *** *** ******** intelligence. 

** **** **** **** as * ******* ********* we ******'* **** ** many ******* ***** ****** not ********* ***** ** their ****** *** ****** until **** ***** *** failure **** **** **** to ******** **** ***** and ***** ***** ****** instead.

** *** ***** * sales **** *** **** customer ***** ***** **** are ****** *** ******** that ***** ** ********* else, *** *****'* **** your *** ** * salesperson.

**** ****** ********* **** not *********** ******* **** first ***. **** ****** buy ****** ******* **** out ** * ******* of ************ **** ****** desire. **** ********** ***** love ** *** *** money ******* ********* ****, but **** ** *** cameras ** ******* **** internal ************. ****** *** have **** ****** *** or *** ********* ** your ***** ****** **** weren't **** ** *** the ************ ****** ** their ****** *** ** budget? 

Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

In reply to Undisclosed #3 | 11/12/18 03:10am

***, *********** ***** ** a **** *** ** configuring ******* ************* *** cameras *** ********* ********* because ** ********** ****. Yes, * *** **** many ********* *** ***** rather *** **** ***** to ***** ****** ****** after * ******* **** on *** *************, *** can't.

*** *** **** ** when *** ***** ** marketing, *** **********, *** IT, **** **********, ***/** facilities **** ******** *** explain *** ******* **** help **** *** ***, wow, **'* ******* *** the ****** ********* ********* so **** *** *** the ****** ** ***** dreams.

*'** ***** **** **** I ****; ** *** are ******* ******* **** insurance, *** ****'* ***** it *****.

Undisclosed #6

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #2 | 11/12/18 06:04am

** *** *** ******* cameras **** *********, *** aren't ***** ** *****.

******* **** *** ***** teach *** :)

Avatar

John Bazyk

IPVMU Certified | 11/09/18 03:24pm

****'* **** ********* **** to *** ***** ****. "Who's ****?"

**** ****** ** ********* know? *** ******* ** Costco *** *******. 

**** "********" ********* ******** from **** ***'* ***** to **** ****. **** still ***'* *** **. Like **** *************, ****'** disconnected **** *** ***-****, and ***** ********* ****** to **. 

****'* **** ********* ****. They **** ** **** to *** ***. **** want ** ***** ***** with ***** ******* *** neighbors ** ****** ***** easily. **** ********* *** looking ** *** ******** and **** ******** *** delivered. **** ** **** $20-30k ****** ******* ** these *** *****, *** know **** ******** ** get? * **** ** see ******* ****/** * package *** ********* *** when ** **** *** standing *** ******* *** the ***. 

*** *** ********* **** Ring, **** *** *** like ******* **** *********? Because ***** *** *** focused ** *** **** their ****** ** ** use. 

* *** *** * Yi ****** ** ****** for $** **** *********** any **** ****** ** a *****'* *******. ****'* sad. 

**** *** ***** ************ brands **** ** ***** more ** ***** ********* resources ** ********* ********* like **** **** **** to ***** **** *** Nest. ******* ** **** material ***** ************ ** my ******* ** ****** these ***** ********* *******.

Midwest Surveillance

In reply to John Bazyk | 11/09/18 05:01pm

**** **** *** **** to ** * ********** to **** ** ****. They *** *** ********* with *** ******** ******. The *****-* ** ** could ****** ** *********** into * ***** ******** or **** *** *******, stay *****, *** *** into *** **** ******** system. 

****' ******* ***** **** right *** ** ************* the *** *** ****/******** that ****** **** **** just * ******. * good, ******** ****** **** records ***** *** *** a ***** ****** ***. Not ***** *** **** needs * **** ** "Solution" *** ** *** gate. ***** **** **** a ****** *** ** replace **** **** *******, that **** **** **** in *** **** ** the * ***** ********* next ****. ** ** IT ***** **** ***** about **** **** * peer *** ***** ** implement **** * ***. If *** **** ** them **** * "********" price ***, *** ***** system *** ***** ***** has ***** * *** more *********. ***** *********** will **** ** ***** projects *** *** ** points ** *** *****. I ***** **** ** taking *** **** *******. 

****** ***** ****** *** car ** *** ********** for *******. *** ** you **, *** *** experience *** *****, ***** where ***'** **** ****** buying **** **** ***?

 

Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

In reply to Midwest Surveillance | 11/10/18 12:23am

****** **** *** **** expensive ******** ** *** planet

Undisclosed #3

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #9 | 11/10/18 12:43am

**’** ****** ***** ****, not *******, ***** ***. 

Midwest Surveillance

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #9 | 11/16/18 09:44pm

* ***** ******* *** out ** ****** ** extra $**-*** *** ** Axis ******* ********, **** a **** ** ****, or *** ***** ****. A ***** ***/***** ***** with ***** *** *** compatibility **** *** *** on *** ****** ** easily ***** **. 

Undisclosed #12

In reply to John Bazyk | 11/13/18 03:58am

* ***’* **** **** you *** **** ***** I’ve ***** ****** ** get * ******’* $********* Holovision ** *********/****** ** work ******** **** * Crestron ******* ****** *** an ***** *** ** function **** *** ******’* brother-in-law’s **** *********.  ** doesn’t ****.  ** ***’* work.  ** **** ***** work.  *** ** **** Ring/Nest/etc *** ***** ******* to ********** **** **** actually *** **** ********* that ***** ****** **** and **** **’* *****.  It ** *** **** our ********’* ************* **** been ** ***** ** to **** ***** ***** eaten ** * ***** of ****** ******** **** the ******* *** **** on *** **** *** a ******.

Undisclosed End User #13

In reply to John Bazyk | 11/15/18 02:15pm

*** **** **** ** camera **** **** ****** to ** *********** *** 5+ *****?

Undisclosed Integrator #14

In reply to Undisclosed End User #13 | 11/15/18 02:50pm

** **** ** * disposable *******; * *** of ********* **** ******* pay ****, **** ***** because ** **** *** budget *** **** **** they **** ** ** do.

Avatar

John Bazyk

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Undisclosed End User #13 | 11/15/18 03:00pm

* ******’* ***** **** it ***** **** * years ** *******. *** even ** ** **** lasted * ****. *** $30 ** *****’* **** matter. ****’* **** **** and ****** **** ***’* understand. *** ******** ******* is *********. **** ** they **** ** ***** into *** *** **** residential ****** ****’** *** to ******* ***** ********* and *** **** ***** their *******. 

Avatar

Michael Cain

IPVMU Certified | 11/09/18 03:40pm

*'* ***** ** ** the *** **** ****** with **** ** * manner ** ********. **** analytics *** *** ***** that ** ***** ** eliminate *** **** *** VMS ******* ** * large ****** ***** **** eliminating *** **** *** humans ******* *** ************* 'monitoring' ***** *******. *** systems *** ******** ** use **** ******** *** cloud ***** ** ******** to ********* ***** ********* while ************ ********** ********* and *** ********* ** opposed ** * ******** 'investigative' *********. 

* **** *** ******** and ****** ******** ****** like ** **** * solid ** ***** ** the ****, *** **** stuff ** ******, *** improving ************* *** ** going ** ********* * ton ** ***** *****, hardware *** ***** ** actions.

** *** * **** deep ******* **** * company ***** **** **** who *** ****** ********* like $*** ** ** funding. **** ** *** a **** *****, *** what **** ** ******* available ** ****** $**/**/*** in ***** ********** *****. We *** ******* **** this **** ** *********** the ********, **, ******* and ******** ******** *******. 

**

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Michael Cain | 11/09/18 04:16pm

*** ******* *** ******** to *** **** ******** and ***** ***** ** training ** ********* ***** positives ***** ************ ********** analytics *** *** ********* as ******* ** * reactive '*************' *********.

**** **** *** **** this. **** ** **** do, **** ****** ****** it.

** *** * **** deep ******* **** * company ***** **** **** who *** ****** ********* like $*** ** ** funding.

*******? ***? ***** *** a ******* ****** ** companies ** **** ***** raising **** *****.

* ** *** *********** this ** ****** *** a ******* *** **** raised $** ******* ** VC ******* ** ***** (in **** ********) ***** from ****** * ****** enterprise ********.

Avatar

Michael Cain

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 11/09/18 04:32pm

* ***** **** *****'* have ****, ** *** more * ******* ***** of *** ****** ** the ******** *********. :) 

* **** ***** ***, but ** *** ****. Also, **** *** ********* installing ***** ******* ** enormous ********** ************ **** NFL ******** *** ******** surveillance… ***** ****** ********** ready ** **. 

*** **** ****** ** were ********** *** ****** 1500 *********. **** **** been *********** *** **** a ****, **** ******* false ********* ** **% from * ******** **% success ****. **** **** had *** ****** ******** in *** **** *** that ***** ** ***** a ***** ***** ***** the ****** ********** ** the ********. 

**** ******... **** ***'* a ****** ****, *** a **** *****. 

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Michael Cain | 11/09/18 05:10pm

**** *** ****** *** mentioning ***** ****? ****'* atypical.

**** ******* ***** ********* by **% **** * starting **% ******* ****.

**** **** **% ******* rate ****? * *** of ***** *** ****** that **** ** ******** false ****** **? ** an *** ******* **** would ** * ******* number ** ***** ******.

Undisclosed #12

In reply to John Honovich | 11/13/18 04:02am

*** * ******* ** stealth, ***, *** ******* name ***** ** ***** the ***.

Undisclosed #10

In reply to Michael Cain | 11/10/18 04:54pm

"**** ********* *** *** thing **** ** ***** to ********* *** **** for *** ******* ** a ***** ****** ***** with *********** *** **** for ****** ******* *** ineffectually '**********' ***** *******."

*** *** ********** *** different ****** **** *** position *********.

"eliminating *** **** *** ****** ******* *** ************* '**********' ***** *******" - is an obvious and pretty-well uncontested viewpoint (i.e. most would agree).

"Edge ********* *** *** ***** **** ** ***** ** ********* *** **** *** *** *******" - is a conclusion not as easily argued based on what analytics do vs what a VMS does (i.e. I think most people would ********). 

Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

11/09/18 04:04pm

* ***** **** ***** to *** "** ********* *** *******.... ******* **** *** out ** ***** **********".

 

*** ** *** *******, you **** * ****** or ********.  ***** **** usually ***** ******* *** not ***-**-*** *********, ** may ** **** *** them ** *** *** there *** **** "**** cameras".

Avatar

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC | In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #4 | 11/12/18 02:33pm

* **** **** ***** just **** ** * camera 

Undisclosed Integrator #5

11/09/18 06:13pm

**** *** * **** issue. **** ***'* **** kit ** ****. **** you *** ** ** doesn't **** ** ** breaks ** * *** months.. 

*** *** *** ******* kit *** **** *** price, *** ** ***** and ** *****, ** you *** ** ***** they **** ** ***** fast. 

** ******* *** ******* no *** ******* ** Axis *** *** ***'* need ** *** **** for **...

 

Undisclosed #6

11/09/18 06:24pm

**** ** **** ************ call * '*******':

*** **** ****** ** a ********* **** ** apparently ******** *** ******** asserts * ********** ** one ***** *** ********* meaningless ** *******. *********, a ******* *** (** least) *** ********: *** that ** **** *** trivial, *** ******* **** sounds ********, *** ** essentially ***** ** *********** and ***** ** "*****-**********" if ****.

***.

****, * **** * philosopher * ***** ******* that *** ********* “** one ***** ** *** a ******.” ** ******** trivially******,***** **** ****** **** ** buy * ******.  

******* **** “*** ****** is **** *** **** of * ******** ******”.  In **** **** ** have * ********** ****** truth (** ** *** part), ******* **** * deeper ************ ************** (** is ** **** ********* than *** ***** **** to *** *****).

Undisclosed Manufacturer #7

In reply to Undisclosed #6 | 11/09/18 06:55pm

** ** (* ******), or *** ** ** (a ******)? **** ** the ********:

******* *** ****** ** the **** ** ******

*** **** ******* ***** of ********** *******,

** ** **** ******* against * *** ** troubles

*** ** ******** *** them......

Undisclosed Integrator #8

11/09/18 08:04pm

**** ***** ** *** back ** ***** **** at *******.  **** ********** to ** **** ***** software ******* - **** aren't.  *** **** **** software - *** **** software *********.  **** ****** P3225-LVE ******* *** *** cost ** ** ***** of '****' ******* ** newly ********* *******.  ****** just ****.  **** *** had **** *** **** bugs ***** **** *********.

Undisclosed Integrator #11

11/12/18 01:43pm

** **** ****** **** **** ********* *** **** *** *** very ****. *** ***** Axis *** ****** * decade ******* ******** ** app ***** *** **** analytics (*.*., ****), **** too *** **********.

* ***** **** ** see ***** ***** **** based ********* ******.  ***** line *****, ****** ********, occupancy, ***********, ***.  *'** used **** ** ******** and **** *** ***** results ***** *** ** where *** ******* **** installed.  *** ************ * was **** ** ** fresh, *** *** ***** success, *** *****, ********* at ** ******** ******** and *** ****** **** to *** *** ******** to **%.

 

Frank Pedersen

11/12/18 04:15pm

***, ** **** *** base............. *********, **** *** not *********** ** *** recent **** ***** **** 2 **** **** ** networking, ********, **** *******, statistics *** *** ******* announcements (**** ** *********). What *** *** ******* about, ** * ******* something?

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Frank Pedersen | 11/12/18 04:41pm

*****, ****** *** **** first *******!

* ** **** **** was **** *** ********. For *********, * ** talking ***** ****** ******* / ******* ********* - How **** ******** ******, how **** *********** ** social *****, ***** *** website, ******, ************, ***. And **** *******, **** they ***********. **'* * mess ***, *****, ***** I ** **** **** was **** *** *** small ****** ** ****** there, ** **** *** reflect ***** ******* / bigger ******** ****** ** their *********.

Brian Crockett

IPVMU Certified | 11/15/18 02:12pm

***** * ***** **** it ** * ******* approach ** *** ****** to ****** **** ******* is **** ******* ** buy * ******, ******* with "*********" *** **** be * ********** ********.  The **** ** ********* encompasses ********** **** *** simple (**** ****) ** the **** ******** (****** identification).  *** ********* ** performance **** *** ******* touting ********* ** ******* is *** ***** ** be **** ** ********* which ************'* ******** ** actually **** *** * given ***********.  ** *** that, *** *********** ****** from *** **** *********** varies **** ************ ** manufacturer.  *** ***** ** analytics ****'* **** ********** and ********** *** *** benefit ** *** ****** to *** **** ****** that ****** ********** ***, for *******.  * ********** user ** *** ****** can ** ***** ** by ****** ** * manufacturer ******* *** **** basis ** *********** **********.

Undisclosed Integrator #15

11/26/18 03:25pm

* *** **** ****** something... ***** **** **** say ****? ****** ** me **** ** *** written ** ******* ******* a **** ******* ** a ********/*-****

Undisclosed Integrator #16

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #15 | 11/26/18 05:26pm

******* = **** ******** ** the ******** *********** *******, Application *********** ******* ******* at **** ************** ***.

Undisclosed #6

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #15 | 11/26/18 06:36pm

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #15 | 11/26/18 10:20pm

****** ** ** **** it *** ******* ** someone ******* * **** article ** * ********/*-****

#**, ****** *** ******. As #** **** ** was ** **** ** manager.

*** *** ***** ****** work **** ************* ** that *** ************ ********/ submits these ******** ** ***** magazines. ** *** ** bylined ** ********* ****** but ***** *** *********** on *** ****** ** the *******.

* ******** ****** ***** of ** **** * senior ******* ** **** promoted ** ** ****** media.

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The Chinese government-owned and US-government banned Hikvision has become the world's largest video surveillance manufacturer and generally hidden...

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