Subscriber Discussion

Understanding IPVM - From A Manufacturer's Perspective

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Mark Espenschied
Oct 30, 2017

It is kind of fascinating that most posts on IPVM result in John Honovich and his associates being forced to defend IPVM.

I have worked for three video surveillance equipment manufacturers. One was before John launched the IPVM website and two have been since his transition from LinkedIn. It has been my experience that in our industry there was a void that he has filled. In other industries in which I have worked, magazines (and now their web counterparts) act as a resource for product reviews. In the video surveillance industry, it is almost as if the industry publications are afraid to write meaningful reviews, or are unable to hire people capable of writing them, due to budgetary restraints or fear of losing advertising. 

I have learned that John Honovich considers himself to be a bullsh*t detector for the video surveillance industry. Why? Becomes someone needed to fill the void. If no need for this role existed, there would not have been a space to fill and IPVM would have failed. The truly interesting thing in all this is that no one else has attempted to fill the void, yet. 

One of my previous employers referred to John as "Rush Limbaugh." That tag was meant to belittle the service that IPVM seeks to provide. Whereas I see Rush Limbaugh as an opportunist who has been able to exploit political debate to accelerate his career in broadcasting, I have come to recognize John Honovich for his experience in the field, and he has been able to attract other experienced people to work with him to test products: to verify or debunk manufacturer claims. Because John and his associates come from within the video surveillance industry, IPVM also provides tools that manufacturers always talk about providing, but most lack the resources or commitment to make and maintain them.

In my opinion, the IPVM tools justify the website/business. It is also quite apparent that there is a "market" for independent IP network/surveillance training in our industry.

Then comes the product reviews. As the employee of a manufacturer, and especially as a marketing guy, when I get an email from IPVM that "they" are going to review one of our products, it is an opportunity for us to revisit our self-evaluation of the product. If it does not do what we say it does, the people at IPVM will discover that. I have always understood why some people in manufacturing take that personally. I have come to understand that the only thing that John takes personally is when his integrity is questioned. "You say your product does this. We could not get it to do that. Facts are facts." But those results are only part of a review that reveals in detail what the product does and does not do, using tables, specs and pictures. And, most importantly, John and his people work with the manufacturer during the test. They always report what they have found and ask if we want to do something about it. The review is never posted as a blindside.

Where IPVM seems to take the most heat is when their people "go on the attack." It happens when the manufacturer refuses to acknowledge a problem that IPVM has discovered. When a problem does exist, it is almost always a delicate situation for the manufacturer. And no one wants to be dictated a timeline by someone else.

However, I think that the people at IPVM are looking for manufacturers to act with expediency. That is a good word. Expediency. It has been my experience that when a manufacturer engages with the people at IPVM to explain the internal plan to address the allegations, the people at IPVM offer to provide help and exercise restraint while the manufacturer works through the allegation. Often, a "failure" is something that is too difficult for the owner to use. Anything that causes any manufacturer to make a product easier to use is a good thing. (I am not sure if you have noticed, but almost everything you buy at Walmart has become easier to assemble. This started years ago with many barbeque grills being returned. Why? Because the purchaser could not assemble it. Walmart was literally taking back partially assembled grills with the pieces piled into a shopping cart. Walmart, with their power as one of the largest retailers in the world, told the grill manufacturers, "Make your grills so that anybody can assemble them in 10 minutes, or we will not carry your brand.")

Whatever the motivation (even if it is a review on IPVM), manufacturers improving the experience for the end-user is a win-win-win.

If the manufacturer chooses to fight with IPVM, John and his associates seem to take that as verification that they are correct and they appear to be more than willing to defend their position.

I have written this because I see a corollary with what is going on here with what is happening with the executive branch of the United States government and the mainstream media. However, whereas some members of the mainstream media can make a living off of sensationalism, if IPVM does not stay grounded in fact, the site does not provide the service to integrators that John and his associates ultimately seek to provide. That integrity is what John fiercely defends.

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Oct 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

It's a very good post but the truth is I doubt it will change any minds. I happen to agree with most of it.Obviously, I do not know what type of contact they have with manufacturers but everything I have seen seems to indicate, they just report what they see.

 

But you just can't convince everyone.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 30, 2017

I'll stay undisclosed.  100% spot on!

JH
John Honovich
Oct 31, 2017
IPVM

Mark, thanks, interesting insights. Note - I modified the title to append "From A Manufacturer's Perspective" to make it a little clearer that it was coming from a company we have covered and criticized.

A few thoughts on the topics of manufacturers fighting with IPVM and 'sensationalism':

  • We genuinely seek to talk directly with all manufacturers we cover. Moreover, we aim to do it in a measured manner and even off the record to help manufacturers speak more freely and comfortably about what the issues are. Even companies we have had the most conflicts with, Hikvision, Dahua, Axis, Avigilon, etc. can attest to that.
  • When manufacturers 'fight' with us, I genuinely view it as simply dumb because they are much better served either, directly to us or publicly to their own dealers, to dispassionately and analytically debunk our criticisms. When, instead of doing that, they engage in ad hominem attacks, I am not angry, I simply take that as an acknowledgment that since they are wrong on the facts, they have to resort to such behavior. Think about all the times we have caught Hikvision in the past few months - the Amazon Scamemailing admin passwords in plain textcracked security codesport forwarding in their hardening guide increasing sales on Amazon, etc., etc. These manufacturers would gain far more credibility by admitting mistakes and improving, rather than waging a marketing campaign that further hurts them.
  • As for 'sensationalism' or 'National Enquirer' criticisms, the reality is simple. Manufacturers and their associates are upset about being criticized for genuine problems. Instead of recognizing them, they try to discredit us. The apex of that is Hikvision's 'most outrageous' accusation. Watch the exploit demo video. It has Brian's dry narration, no music, no call to action, no text for the magic string, no link to the reset tool shown, etc. It's a matter of fact, low key video. What angers Hikvision is not that it is sensational but that it exposes their issues so directly.

What remains is this. Happy to talk to any manufacturer. Can be convinced or change our stances as manufacturer's change their approaches.

Not afraid of being criticized. It has been done for many years (we'll be 10 next April) and we have proven battle tested. We will keep on with the same approach that we have done and our continued moderate expansion into greater depth and more areas of the industry.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 31, 2017

Oh, memory lane. 

Arecont and the fake dollar insert

BRS went crazy personal

Todd R and the many claims of IP ending, SDI is better etc.

Axis had a flaw WHAT!!

The scam awards, you pay-you win

Avigilon and the 29MP that was better than 16 2MP cameras.

Suicidal robots.

It wasn’t always about China. 

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 31, 2017
IPVM

Memory lane...

A few old related posts: Lying At Arecont VisionArecont Lies, Now Threatens LawsuitThe Axis Corruption Cruise ReturnsAvigilon Dirty Tricks, etc.

In fairness, many new people have come into the industry over the years, far more  read IPVM than in the past, etc.

U
Undisclosed #3
Oct 31, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Arecont, Avigilon, Axis, BRS, Cisco, Dahua, Dedicated Micros...

Some would say you’re just working your way down the alphabet :)

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Ryan Hulse
Nov 06, 2017

Uh oh.  I don't like where this is headed.  
(work for Exacq)

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 31, 2017

For what it's worth, I used to be frustrated that the information available online on surveillance products was so scarce and biased, being mostly manufacturers' own claims and word of mouth. In my work I saw so many broken things - cybersecurity-wise - I was genuinely amazed there's nothing to be found about those issues and it seemed to be business as usual. And still is, of course.

It was only after finding out about IPVM that I felt some relief that there's at least one bastion of sanity in this secrecy-over-openness industry.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Oct 31, 2017

IPVM Provides an invaluable service to the Industry at large. If you strive to be a student of the industry, a consultant and resource to your clientele; IPVM the best industry source of relevant and informative data. John and Team - keep up the good work !

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Nov 01, 2017

100% agree with the original post!  I’ve been on the manufacturing side for about 7 years, and find the content here more useful than any other industry info. 

One thing you didn’t mention is the value it provides to manufacturers in regards to real world experience (especially outside of the natural in-company slant). It’s a great opportunity to see how others experience our products, and helps us speak intelligently on our competitors as well. A good representative of a company should always want to use factual info when discussing pros and cons of both their products and their competitors’ products. 

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 01, 2017
IPVM

#5, thanks.

I do agree that manufacturers can get value on real-world experience, both from discussions but, more importantly to me, are the integrator surveys that we do and the resulting statistics posts that we publish.

These posts provide both numbers and detailed color commentary that should be quite useful for manufacturers both in better communicating and planning product development, e.g., recent stats posts such as:

We have 200+ of those statistics reports with multiple new ones each month.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 01, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I have learned that John Honovich considers himself to be a bullsh*t detector for the video surveillance industry. Why? Becomes someone needed to fill the void. The truly interesting thing in all this is that no one else has attempted to fill the void, yet.

He’s got it locked up...

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Abdelhamid Metwally
Nov 07, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Mark mentioned that there where was hardly any independent website/publication that used to independently review security products before IPVM. Coming originally for the IP telephony/network world, I never found an issue with finding products reviewed by a 3rd party (same with most other technology systems such AV or home automation). Does anyone have any idea why security is so different?

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