I'm not going to lie (although I am going to be anonymous, because I'm embarrassed at what I'm about to say). When Genetec dropped Hikvision, I thought they were being a little overdramatic. Now I wish other VMS manufacturers had followed suit.
I am curious if Milestone will issue a statement with the reason why the dropped Hik.
It could be the same reason as Genetec, it could also be because Hik is aiming to be indepent with HikCentral. I understand it's not a comparable product today, but in future they could be competitors.
Either way, Milestone is struggeling. I don't see any other reason to distribute XProtect Essential+ 8 channel licenses free or charge. It's so good they have to give it away.
Either way, Milestone is struggeling. I don't see any other reason to distribute XProtect Essential+ 8 channel licenses free or charge. It's so good they have to give it away.
YOU ARE AMAZING!
Hikvision gives away iVMS-4200. Hikvision sells cameras for far less than Axis. Hikvision sells NVRs for far less than Milestone. Jonathan's response: Hikvision is doing great.
Milestone gives away 8 channel licenses while selling everything else for a premium. Jonathan's response: Milestone is struggling.
I am curious if Milestone will issue a statement with the reason why the dropped Hik.
Milestone made the move 2 months ago without issuing any statement. They only commented to us after we reached out to them. I doubt they are going to get into more details.
Hikvision selling at a different pricepoint is another story. But if cheap is the aim, I get plenty of mails offering me a lot cheaper stuff, but also a lot more crappy :).
HikCentral is not free. It is aimed to be a full VMS, like Milestone.
I know iVMS is free, and it's like all freeware: you pay some other way. In the case of Hikvision they take it out of the camera price.
How is Milestone making any money on the free license?
Hikvision selling at a different pricepoint is another story.
Yes, it's a worse 'story'. Hikvision sells everything at a discount. Milestone gives a discount on just 8 channel entry level software.
If Hikvision was doing so great and people so highly valued it, they could raise their prices and make more money.
How is Milestone making any money on the free license?
It's a freemium model and it's used across the world. You give away a limited entry-level version to get people familiar with your offering and then charge them more as they get familiar and see the value in your offering.
The Hikvision model of putting everything on sale, almost every day, is less typical.
How is Milestone making any money on the free license?
Milestone has long had a free version since 2010. It used to be limited to a very low recording duration. The free version now supports up to 8 cameras with full, though very entry-level (NVR/DVR grade) features. Milestone is not looking to dominate the residential and gas station market like Hikvision. For the entry-level market they have the free product to whet the appetite for something a bit more serious. If you have 8 cameras and upgrade to 9 how likely are you to remove the workstation/VMS to swap in an NVR versus just paying the small licensing cost?
I applaud Milestone for their action but also I am disappointed that it was not taken further.
If you think Hikvision is the bottom of the market, you don’t know the market well. Hikvision is the best of the Chinese manufacturers that I have tried IMO.
Care to quantify “Hikvision wins the low bar contest”?
"best of the Chinese manufacturers"
You had a qualifier and I agree with it. When comparing Hikvision to Dahua, Uniview, Sunell, etc it's not exactly a deep bench. If you said that Hikvision compared well against Axis, Bosch, Panasonic, or Avigilon without adding a qualifier for the price then we would have a debate.
IMO yes. They are undefeated in the low end market. They try to mingle in the middle parts of the market but have a lot to learn from the likes of Axis. Sadly their political associations will hold them back from greatness. Had it not been for their gov ownership, they /could/ have been the best ever. It would have taken a lot on the software development side to get there. But I don’t think that’s even possible at this point, due to them being a toxic brand for most. The politics involved don’t factor into my assessment of the quality of their products.
Had it not been for their gov ownership, they /could/ have been the best ever.
Had it not been for their government ownership, they would never have the resources to do what they have done. And even with the Chinese government and their "10,000+ R&D engineers" Axis is still better in overall camera quality and Genetec and Milestone are still better in overall VMS performance, with a fraction of Hikvision's resources.
Those are valid points, but I wonder how much of a head start Axis, Milestone, and Genetec had specifically, and the western world in general?
My point being none of the Chinese firms make well developed products when compared to western brands, especially software. Even Russians make decent software, so it’s not an western only product. The Japanese and Koreans also make excellent products, so it’s not an Asian deficiency.
I wonder how much of a head start Axis, Milestone, and Genetec had specifically, and the western world in general?
Hikvision was founded in 2001, so it's a fairly old company. However, on the contrary, one could argue that China was overall less advanced back then. Though, the counter to that is that Hikvision has had so many more claimed "R&D engineers" than Axis, Milestone, and Genetec combined for many years now and still does not match their overall quality / performance.
Let's see with AI. Hikvision and Dahua have so many advantages here - money, focus, lack of laws and ethics. If China engineering has really become world class they should crush Avigilon, Axis, Genetec, Milestone, etc. So far Dahua and Hikvision's AI has been embarrassing but it could improve.
...none of the Chinese firms make well developed products when compared to western brands, especially software. Even Russians make decent software, so it’s not an western only product. The Japanese and Koreans also make excellent products, so it’s not an Asian deficiency.
Excerpted without permission from
“Correlation or Causation: Examining the Effect of Ethnicity on Software Quality”, Jon Dillabaugh, 2019
My point being none of the Chinese firms make well developed products when compared to western brands, especially software. Even Russians make decent software, so it’s not an western only product. The Japanese and Koreans also make excellent products, so it’s not an Asian deficiency.
Interesting statistics. Back home, in Europe, we had an expression "Indian code". I was surprised that Canadians don't use that, they just way too polite :)
to be fair, Hikcentral has the same 8-camera free version.
Talking about XProtect vs Hikcentral: I don't understand why Hik wasted resources on VMS development instead of buying a successful established business. Milestone as VMS and Hik hardware would be a great combination.
I don't understand why Hik wasted resources on VMS development instead of buying a successful established business. Milestone as VMS and Hik hardware would be a great combination.
A few years ago, numerous insiders says Hikvision tried to purchase Milestone. My understanding is that they did not offer enough, though maybe there were other issues.
The other issue would be potential barriers to buying foreign software manufacturers. This would depend on the country but there might be a backlash in say Canada or Denmark if a Chinese government entity bought a company. Those deals can get blocked, e.g., Canada Blocks Chinese Takeover of Construction Firm on Security Concerns
They did give a reason "To be named a Milestone Elite partner, companies must demonstrate outstanding sales, implementation, consulting and support for Milestone Systems solutions and consistently show excellence in business initiatives and marketing."
Hik likes to sell 'their' stuff (which is actually really good stuff) and focuses more on their own success than mutual partnership successes. Not uncommon in this industry, and perfectly fine, but probably not Elite partner type activities.
I work at Milestone (lower level, so definitely NOT in the know) but I can honestly say most decisions from Milestone appear to be focused on empowering partnerships and mutual success. Even with direct competitors!! I love this about Milestone.
You, and likely others, believe this kind of thinking is a mistake and that we should be "struggeling", but from my perspective this kind of thinking has driven incredible success, an amazing culture (that extends outside the company), and what sometimes appears to be an unending stream of future opportunities.
One thing I can guarantee is that the decision was not made because Hik has a competitive product. They (Milestone) just do not think that way, at all.
Hikvision has now responded to IPVM, clarifying their role and relationship with Milestone:
In early 2018, Milestone developed a deep driver integration for Hikvision products based on Hikvision's proprietary protocol. This will continuously be developed and maintained by Milestone and provides the user with a much deeper integration than standard protocols, as well as integration support for a wider range of Hikvision products than just cameras. The change of status does not change the level of integration.
Hikvision is performing our own tests, and has for more than a year not been depending on Milestone test resources. Hence, the change of status does not change the test flow, time or priority.
In addition, Hikvision has developed a number of plugins that address specialized needs; such as ANPR, fisheye dewarping, access control etc. These will continuously be developed and maintained by Hikvision. Again, no change in the level of integration of Hikvision products in Milestone software.
Hikvision has recently joined the Milestone system builder program and will be launching the first products most likely end of Q1 2019. Hikvision enjoys the same level of support from Milestone as any other system builder. The change in status does not affect this program.
And Milestone has responded to Hikvision, clarifying Hikvision's statement:
We can confirm that the current driver capabilities do not change at this time and device pack 10.1 will remain in market as is.
With the change of HikVision’s partner status comes a more reactive approach to development of the HikVision driver where vulnerabilities and basic corrections will be prioritized over new features.
Milestone’s System Builder program is open to all hardware manufacturers presenting an ability for them to ship their hardware with a ready to use, free version of Milestone software binary preloaded. With the System Builder program the hardware manufacturer assumes no distribution rights of software licenses and cannot alter the software in any way. Should the customer want to upgrade from a free to a paid version of the VMS, the purchase follows Milestone’s conventional channel and purchase model.
Bad move on Milestones side. Maybe like their installers Hikvision got no interest, integration and the program was little more than a website and twitter news item.
Milestone should keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Also from an outsiders point of view this looks really "un-open" when Canon and Axis are part of your own family..
Milestones job in the industry is to provide open software, if they cant then others will clean up. Also comes across they don't invest in their relationships, Ill pick you up when I need you and drop you when not.. My bet Hik wont be waiting for the make up, Hikvision isn't going away.
they may not be going away overall...but they DEFINITELY are going away in the high end of the market.
I think they have not really ever been in the high end of the market. I have no doubt Hikvision made significant progress in large school districts/government projects where price rules the day and clients are generally uninformed.
In the private sector the vast majority of our customers have not heard of Hik. The few that have they have expressed little interest. The reason why is that putting a camera into an industrial environment involves costly boom lift rental, fairly costly union technicians, armored fiber/range extenders/ABF, surge protection, work on shift premium, a significant amount of conduit, and ground spotters. When you are paying $8k-$13k to have a camera installed saving $300-$500 on the camera means very little. Add on all of the negative press and there will not ever be any adoption of the product at our large accounts.
This has been a fun argument to read. However, I think the Milestone Elite Camera partner program has been blown out of proportion. Most Milestone integrators don't sell Milestone licenses based on who and how many elite camera partners there are. Most Milestone end users don't even know who the elite camera partners are nor do purchase based off that list. And as both Milestone and Hik mentioned, nothing is really changing in terms of usability of the product since Hik is still developing as if they were an elite. In other words, for Hik, the Milestone Elite camera partner program didn't add any tangible value for any party involved in the Hik / Milestone transaction.
First of all: You bring up a good point. I'd be curious to know what your ideal license to camera cost ratio is? $250 license to $25 camera seems out of whack for sure as that is a 10:1 ratio. What would be more fair?
Second of all: Wyze is not an open camera (no ONVIF or RTSP) so it couldn't connect to an enterprise level VMS anyway.
I have no model for building a correct pricing ratio for application camera licenses based on what exists already between systems such as Exacq, Salient, Omnicast, Milestone, Onssi, VideoEdge etc.
However If I were to compare to other systems. Do I have to procure an annual SSA/SUP license program for; Lighting Systems, Fire Systems, Telephony(IP) Systems, Sound Systems, AV Systems? Perhaps those costs are embedded and unknowable, but when it comes to Security it is an obvious billboard. Wrong or Right I cannot be the one that exhibits a price that achieves justice for all.
Bottom line is, I grew up open source Unix / Linux nature. I believe all information should be free as well as the access to that data services of information. I still build systems and charge people for all the BS, but deep down inside I want it all to end.
Once the Software Development Team has finalized a specific VMS release, how do you know what your return is? If it is 1000% then assume you hit the nail on the head and the demand for your product is now being discussed on all channels. You're It.
However if you are just mediocre VMS and assuming a market price IP camera license to display a camera stream that takes no rocket science at all to connect I call even more BS.
Do all the top VMS manufacturers make any damn cameras at all? (answer: F No) Avigilon, pfft. They charge for a connection developed by that specific camera manufacturer in the assumption by the camera manufacturer that it helps the camera sales of that particular brand. Does milestone look at Wyze and say gee, they are the fasted growing camera, I should spend my own money and write an API to support that camera. I don't think so.
Note: I really don't know if Wyze is the fasted growing camera, nor do I care. I am just spewing. At 25 bucks, why not buy one?
Now back to all the dinosaurs RMR, Big Sales, Big Public Numbers, Super Account Reps, National Account Reps, Global Enterprise Solution Reps...I think you are all full of Sh!t. I see holes in your game, you are an aging dried up raisin and the young folks bunkered down in Linux are going to take this CISSP, Physical Security, CPP, PSP(LOL), junk certifications into the world of IoT. I feel many technicians are just telephone techs before the digital Tsunami wiped out the analog telephony world.
VMS reps talk a big game, I just wonder how you go home thinking you are making quota. If you charge $250 MSRP on a 75 camera system we sit at $18,750. Now take that MSRP number and run it on a 3500 camera installation. Now we total at 875,000. The system is all Axis cameras. You're software has not changed at all except for the fact that it just grew exponentially by 3,425 cameras and you pocket $856,250 for connection licenses SUPPORT(lol). Perhaps these VMS teams hire specific, dedicated technical account reps to support whatever integration company that bid/won the contract? Well, we know that is not true. The Technician, Customer or Engineer that has to call in for technical support faces the same sequence whether or not he has 75 cameras or 3500 cameras. Where does that $856,250 MSRP money go? Busy writing APIs for other systems? Busy updating firmware for outdated cameras the manufacturer fails to keep updated? Busy paying a technical writer to keep your cyber security blog, savvy?
This industry needs to be exposed, just as IPVM exposed Hikvision.
Even $50 connection fee for a $49 camera is not sound. Last, I agree on the sarcasm, for now I will continue to look at your yearly MSRP pricelists, discounts and resell value based on zip code and just cringe but hey...it pays the bills?
Edit: This is the first time I have been a UD#8....Awesome!
At the end of the day this is very much about the optics ... Hik Vision is continuously getting bad press and this will have a short and long term negative effect on Hik Visions position in the market , from a European perspective we are seeing significant push back on Hik .The biggest challenge we have is trying to pick up the pieces after Hik strategy of driving the market to the lowest common denominator .... and people just selling on price Sorry that's not selling !!
At the end of the day this is very much about the optics ... Hik Vision is continuously getting bad press
Keep in mind Hik is used to their home market where the government has complete control of the media and social media content. Since that government also owns controlling shares of Hik there is no real threat of this even being discussed there. The policy of not worrying about optics in China does not apply outside of China. There is a cultural issue that is very apparent.
The policy of not worrying about optics in China does not apply outside of China. There is a cultural issue that is very apparent.
Hikvision is certainly aware of that problem. That's why, e.g., they hired Karl Erik Traberg (who previously worked at Milestone).
The challenge for Hikvision is that, from our interactions and from how they interact with the mainstream media, it is obvious they cannot decide on a proper way to respond, so Karl Erik has been reduced to mostly the 'no comment' person.
And, in fairness to them, if I lived in the People's Republic of China, I'd be understandably nervous that anything I said or approved was perceived by the China Communist Party as a criticism since their critics regularly disappear, are beaten or fall out of windows, due to 'depression'.
Can't find any reference on Milestone Elite Partners?
Think they removed this not to offend someone, that would be diplomatic.
The question is what cameras work best with Milestone? Axis, Bosch, Hanwha and Vivotek? Looking for cameras with video analytics and metadata integration with Milestone.
It is difficult to generalize which manufacturer's cameras work best with Milestone, because there is variance in the different series. However our Camera Analytics Shootout 2021 showed support for classified objects and metadata from Avigilon, Bosch, Hanwha (Wisenet P), Hikvision, others, in Milestone.
Bosch was the first camera manufacturer integrated in Milestone Centralized Search (Milestone XProtect 2019 R3 'Centralized Search' Tested), which had significant bugs in our first test, but performed better in our shootout.
Thank you, I still cant find the list on Milestone for the Platinum technology partners.
Also don't see a way to check all the models that are support by Milestone Centralized Search or metadata database. But will go with the Brands listed on IPVM namely Axis, Bosch, Hanwha and Vivotek and try contact the manufactures for the exact models supported and features
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Comments (47)
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
I'm not going to lie (although I am going to be anonymous, because I'm embarrassed at what I'm about to say). When Genetec dropped Hikvision, I thought they were being a little overdramatic. Now I wish other VMS manufacturers had followed suit.
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Undisclosed Distributor #2
This happened in December... That's a decade in internet time. ;-)
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Bas Poiesz
I am curious if Milestone will issue a statement with the reason why the dropped Hik.
It could be the same reason as Genetec, it could also be because Hik is aiming to be indepent with HikCentral. I understand it's not a comparable product today, but in future they could be competitors.
Either way, Milestone is struggeling. I don't see any other reason to distribute XProtect
Essential+ 8 channel licenses free or charge. It's so good they have to give it away.
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John Honovich
Hikvision has now responded to IPVM, clarifying their role and relationship with Milestone:
Note: the Milestone System Builder Program is for loading Milestone's VMS on 3rd party hardware, such as Hikvision.
It is good that Hikvision has chosen to respond here and something we have encouraged them to do. We want to share their perspective.
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Undisclosed Integrator #5
Bad move on Milestones side. Maybe like their installers Hikvision got no interest, integration and the program was little more than a website and twitter news item.
Milestone should keep your friends close and your enemies closer. Also from an outsiders point of view this looks really "un-open" when Canon and Axis are part of your own family..
Milestones job in the industry is to provide open software, if they cant then others will clean up. Also comes across they don't invest in their relationships, Ill pick you up when I need you and drop you when not.. My bet Hik wont be waiting for the make up, Hikvision isn't going away.
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #10
This has been a fun argument to read. However, I think the Milestone Elite Camera partner program has been blown out of proportion. Most Milestone integrators don't sell Milestone licenses based on who and how many elite camera partners there are. Most Milestone end users don't even know who the elite camera partners are nor do purchase based off that list. And as both Milestone and Hik mentioned, nothing is really changing in terms of usability of the product since Hik is still developing as if they were an elite. In other words, for Hik, the Milestone Elite camera partner program didn't add any tangible value for any party involved in the Hik / Milestone transaction.
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #11
At the end of the day this is very much about the optics ... Hik Vision is continuously getting bad press and this will have a short and long term negative effect on Hik Visions position in the market , from a European perspective we are seeing significant push back on Hik .The biggest challenge we have is trying to pick up the pieces after Hik strategy of driving the market to the lowest common denominator .... and people just selling on price Sorry that's not selling !!
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Undisclosed Integrator #12
Can't find any reference on Milestone Elite Partners?
Think they removed this not to offend someone, that would be diplomatic.
The question is what cameras work best with Milestone? Axis, Bosch, Hanwha and Vivotek? Looking for cameras with video analytics and metadata integration with Milestone.
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Undisclosed Integrator #12
Thank you, I still cant find the list on Milestone for the Platinum technology partners.
Also don't see a way to check all the models that are support by Milestone Centralized Search or metadata database. But will go with the Brands listed on IPVM namely Axis, Bosch, Hanwha and Vivotek and try contact the manufactures for the exact models supported and features
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