This is the culmination of the process that started last fall when Dahua and Hikvision were first suspended. Now the 'grace period' is over and the more significant problems start.
In this note, we share feedback from ONVIF, why some products will still continue to show post-April 1st, how this all ends, and what the impact will be on Dahua, Hikvision, and ONVIF.
ONVIF ********
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*****'* ******** ********* *********** **** *** changed. ******** ***** *, **** ********* listed ** *** ***cannot ****** *** *********** and will be subject to the same treatment ** *** ***** ******* ******** *********** for products not ********* ** . [emphasis added]
*** *** ** *** ****** ************** Regulations **** ********* *** ****** **** of ********** ********* **** ** ***** and *********.
Grace ****** ****
***** ************** **** ***** ********* ** ****, ***** **** **** ***** ***** and ********* ******* *** ****** ** the ******* **** **** ** *** time **** ***** ******** ** *** it ***** ** *** **********. **** grace ****** *** *** *** **** tool ***** ***** **, ****, ******* to *** ********* *** ***** ******* from ********** ********.
As you point out, there's nothing to stop them from just putting an ONVIF sticker on the side of the box anyway. And we all know that Hikvision is shady enough to do just that.
And we all know that Hikvision is shady enough to do just that.
Hikvision is sophisticated. Look at the body temperature camera debacle. Dahua USA is full force but Hikvision USA is sitting this out, likely concerned about violating FDA regulation. We will see but I think Hikvision will be more prudent.
Dear IPVM team, thank you for keeping us updated on it. I tried to get any official statement from ONVIF about it but they sent me to the website to get the information only from there. Do you have any official letter or statement from ONVIF claiming that the membership for these companies are suspended? We hardly compete with them locally and in our country we have a regulation stating that only ONVIF compatible devices can be used in the projects for video surveillance. If we could have any kind of statement (on the letter-head) then it could help us a lot Kind regards
In my opinion, ONVIF should not block those manufacturers. The division is not an answer to any resolving situation. And it may just add more mess in our industry. Their job is to create a standard across the world. That is it. Not take a position.
IF anyone has a concern with any behavior a manufacturer has, just don't buy his product. That is it.
This is the best way anyone could send a message. No customer = no money = no money = have to change or close business.
Take a statement on your company web page saying "we don't sell X product because of X."
If your customer doesn't care and want low-cost product what would you do? Take the responsibility or chicken out?
That the real question. What are you really willing to do and suffer for your belief?
In my opinion, ONVIF should not block those manufacturers.
In ONVIF's defense here, I don't think they want to block anyone. They are forced by US government law as a US entity to do this (i.e., not provide non public technology, in this instance the ONVIF test tool, to sanctioned companies). But who knows, maybe ONVIF will make the test tool public to get around this.
If your customer doesn't care and want low-cost product what would you do? Take the responsibility or chicken out?
I keep hearing this argument, and I don't know how to explain that it's wrong to take advantage of stupid people.
If you worked for a car dealership, and a customer wanted to buy a car that was really cheap but, for some reason, kept catching fire, would you take that customer's money?
Ho, it is deeper than that I think. We touch to value, perception, politics, business war, the judgment of right and wrong, etc.... and all through our own personal brain filter.
In my perception, their camera doesn't catch fire and still do a pretty good job for the price when you look at the test IPVM does.
My personal problem with them is the dumping, the lie and all other technical limitation of their product. So personally I don't like the product. But the client looks at what he gets for the price. Otherwise, everyone will shop at a premium store. Value It is a perception.
Regarding their human rights, I don't have enough information to judge. Everyone (country) are looking at their own interest. And If I start, where do I stop. Because I can give the example that I didn't like what happens with Mexican children at the US border and again I just have the version of what I read. Who am I to judge. Also, does that mean I have to stop doing business with every country that does a thing I don't like?
I would like to live in an honest world with great people and use my talent to do something else that selling security but who knows maybe we will find unicorn one day and the world will change.
In the meantime, I am trying to do my best to do my work accordingly with my value and promote respect, honesty etc ...
(sorry if my though may not be clear since I'm french spoken and don't judge me too hard, It is a discussion with though that flow in my mind today and I'm not perfect.)
There sure quite are a few sanctimonious, self-righteous people on this forum that like to sit on their high horse and shame people for selling Hikua. It might be nice to be able to hurl accusations from your golden palace without having clue one about who you're talking to or what challenges they face, with your established client list, workforce of fifty, seven-figure yearly revenue, and your dealer partner programs with additional manufacturer discounts.
Not all of us are fortunate (large) enough to be able to spec Axis for every job and expect to to put food on our plates. We sell Hikua because no one else makes anything competitively priced for the same performance level.
Quite frankly I'm getting tired of hearing about it. Either sell me some Axis, Hanwha, or Avigilon product at Hikua prices or STFU.
Either sell me some Axis, Hanwha, or Avigilon product at Hikua prices or STFU.
Yeah, why doesn't Axis, Hanwha, and Avigilon start getting billions of dollars from a combination of human rights-abusing projects and large scale protectionism like Dahua and Hikvision do!
My point here is that Dahua and Hikvision can charge what they charge because their business is underwritten by unethical and unfair practices.
#6, I do think you make a fair point about the position you are in. I am not sure of an easy solution for you. What would IPVM members recommend for someone in #6's position?
I agree with #6. Not the way he says it but the bottom line apply of what I said previously:
"But the client looks at what he gets for the price. Otherwise, everyone will shop at a premium store. Value It is a perception."
And without a viable alternative, we use what we have on hand. Also, the "others" without naming them, are not so perfect regarding the price of their products. Otherwise, I would have been making a personal crusade to push those products and convince all the clients that they will get a lot of value for the price they are paying but because I don't believe that, I do not.
Exactly. I come off strong because I'm sick of people here trying to brow beat me into abandoning Hikua because of their controversies while not providing any alternatives, AND implying that because I do so that I am just as morally corrupt as the CCP themselves. Who TF is anyone to judge my morality from a few comments on a web forum?
I'm about to start a project for an apartment block that suffers from crime, vandalism, drug abuse, and homeless people sleeping in the halls. How much of a budget do you think they have, and how could I possibly spec something OTHER than Hikua and convince them the cost will somehow be a better value?
"Well I can give you 8MP Hikuas for $5,000 and they perform great, but they apparently help the CCP run concentration camps in China. Or I can give you Axis for $20,000 and they don't have controversies, but the cameras will all be 1080p."
That's a real hard choice for that kind of client to make...
Come on John, you're smarter than that. Show me ANY one project in the world that uses billions of dollars in surveillance equipment. You think Hikua are charging the CCP full MSRP or something? As if Hanwha, Avigilon, and ESPECIALLY Axis also haven't made a killing selling their overpriced cameras to governments around the world. How much do you think the US has paid for their surveillance equipment alone, who is world-renowned for buying $22,000 hammers and toilet seats?
Quit pretending that no other manufacturer is capable of producing good hardware at competitive prices. They built their businesses on the premise of a premium brand and CHOSE not to water it down with a lower-end line because they don't WANT to compete with Hikua. So until they do, the sanctimonious blowhards here can KMA because I will keep selling my clients affordable solutions, "Unhelpful" votes notwithstanding.
EDIT: Oh, and as far as a long-established, Western business not being able to get multi-million dollar funding to produce a line of good, cheap cameras, I have one word for you: WYZE.
the sanctimonious blowhards here can KMA because I will keep selling my clients affordable solutions, "Unhelpful" votes notwithstanding.
I gave you a funny but no unhelpful!
Seriously, #6, as for:
Quit pretending that no other manufacturer is capable of producing good hardware at competitive prices
Why cannot the Taiwanese (e.g., Vivotek) or Koreans (e.g., Hanwha) compete on price with Hikua? That shows it's not that the 'Swedes' or 'Canadians' are simply being greedy.
Dahua is ~600% bigger than Avigilon or Hanwha, ~300% bigger than Axis. And Hikvision is ~250% larger than Dahua.
The immense scale and protection inside of China give Dahua and Hikvision the resources and power to pursue pricing strategies that no one else can.
Honestly, I wish it was as simple that Axis and Avigilon were just greedy because than someone else, whether from Taiwan or the USA or Europe, could come in and seriously challenge Hikua in the low-cost market. The reality is just that no one can given how the PRC has unethically and unfairly structured its market.
Sorry John I refuse to believe that, because Wyze is a perfect example. A VC-funded startup is delivering decently-performing, feature-packed cameras (and prior to losing Xnor, superior analytic performance) for TWENTY DOLLARS and it took nowhere near billions of dollars to do.
If a startup is capable of that, companies as large and sophisticated as Axis for instance ought not to have any issues raising capital for the same. Hell they could even manufacture IN China if they wanted to and leverage that same advantage. People here are recommending Uniview as an alternative to Hikua so it seems China itself is not the ethical barrier (which is amusing, but that's another discussion).
The reality is they don't want to, because a $20 Axis camera would water down their brand and make their prior and existing clients question why they have been paying some fifty times that for their other products. Obviously outdoor housings, lenses, etc. cost more but that is the reality of a premium brand. You make a cheap version, you lose sales to them and/or get questioned as to why the premium line has to cost so much.
And the thing is I am fine with that. Sell your $1000 1080p domes. But don't suggest I lack ethics and morals because I choose not to sell them to clients that don't want/need them (and to be clear I don't mean you specifically John, I don't believe you hold that opinion but rather some of the other members here).
A VC-funded startup is delivering decently-performing, feature-packed cameras (and prior to losing Xnor, superior analytic performance) for TWENTY DOLLARS and it took nowhere near billions of dollars to do.
#6, I think Wyze is your best counterexample so kudos for going there.
Also, the range of lens options and form factors and IP and IK ratings, etc., that Wyze does not have that you expect for your professional jobs.
But the bigger more fundamental issue is that Wyze is a consumer play sold mostly off their own website, Amazon and increasingly big-box retailers (like Home Depot).
If you are doing professional video surveillance, that does not work. Dahua and Hikvision have big sales teams in North America and those are expensive. A big part of the cost of every SMB or commercial camera is the sales team.
Again, it would be great if a Wyze for professional video surveillance came along. We'd be happy to cover and draw attention to such a low cost credible option.
Yep I saw the Wyze report and actually was pretty glad to see it was underwhelming, because invariably people will point to it as a low-cost alternative and I have to try to tell them that while a Hikua camera is 6x more expensive (and even that's still cheap) the image quality and other features like IP/IK are important for their application.
But I use it more to illustrate that I believe it's a fallacy to think the large western manufacturers can't compete with Hikua because of a lack of funding; they just choose not to. And as such, Hikua remains the low-cost professional option for folks like me that don't have the benefit of being 20 years established, $5 million in capital for inventory, and government clients willing to pay top dollar.
I believe it's a fallacy to think the large western manufacturers can't compete with Hikua because of a lack of funding; they just choose not to.
I think you are pretty firm in that belief and nothing that I say is going to change you.
But I can say I've talked to executives at more than a half dozen non-China camera manufacturers and they all say the same thing - they do not see any way they could stay in business selling at Hikua's pricing. The big issue is covering their sales, marketing and supports costs - it takes big teams of local people and selling at Hikua's prices would not make that viable.
Their China business is subsidizing the US business, even more so than ever.
A few years ago the theory was that Hikvision / Dahua USA were fast-growing 'startups 'and that the losses did not matter since once they got huge and mature the profits would pour in. Now, that revenue is declining and they are under immense political pressure, the losses are even higher and there's no reasonable end-game of a profitable USA business (save for a radical reversal in US-China policy which is unlikely to say the least).
Start selling on best value, technical solutions and invest in your own knowledge/team members, rather than sell on price (selling on price is what are for). Knowledge, added-value and solutions sell Axis, Avigilon, Genetec, etc. rather than asking people to STFU. Remember:
Hikua - made in China
COVID-19 - made in China
Here’s your chance to provide a point of difference to your customers; ask them if they are still happy buying camera technology from China (the origin of COVID-19) or somewhere else not using slave workers AND have business ethics.
With all due respect UM#12, I would love to if I knew my current clients would be interested in that. Having spoken to them about different brands and the value they offered versus the cost for what their needs were, they were not interested. Price is their primary concern and as long as I deliver them a clear video feed with a simple VMD analytic, they are satisfied.
Maybe that will change someday but for the moment, that is my current reality.
"My point here is that Dahua and Hikvision can charge what they charge because their business is underwritten by unethical and unfair practices."
Absolute bollocks, these businesses grew well before these events and it was all based around price and now reliability as well (we now see everyday better build quality from both of these brands than we do "higher quality" brands). You just use it as fuel for your personal vendetta against Chinese brands. As I said before, go investigate some USA companies as well for their human rights abuses and post them on here and come up with some quality unbiased journalism. It's like fox news in here.
with your established client list, workforce of fifty, seven-figure yearly revenue, and your dealer partner programs with additional manufacturer discounts. Not all of us are fortunate (large) enough to be able to spec Axis for every job and expect to to put food on our plates. We sell Hikua because no one else makes anything competitively priced for the same performance level.
100% agree with you. We are all in this TO MAKE MONEY period. The client, the person handing you that check has the final say in what they want, if you tell them I will only sell you Axis, they will shoo you away and find somebody to sell them what they want. We can argue about ethics and whatnot all day long, but at the end of the day in business, your loyalty is to the revenue coming in to pay yourself and your people, not what others think of you.
I sleep very well at night knowing I'm providing for mine and my people. I'm not the world police and the reality is that we can all yell and scream at what's going on with China but none of us can do anything about it, it's their country and their way of living, my only concern is to deliver products that my customer wants and the price that they can pay the rest is noise at this point.
You think that the world will not be enraged by what China has unleashed with the COVID-19 virus in the following months after this health crisis. Good luck selling Made In China in six month’s time...
You misunderstood my point. Our Dahua volume is 15% of our security business, we deal more with cloud based systems but the majority of what we do is mostly in the enterprise A\V and network space, so if there is a change it really won't affect us. I'm telling you from experience that the average buyer of low end hardware does not care where it came from or what the politics are, just what the price is...and when American Manufacturers get off their high horse and understand this FACT then you will see a changing trend towards US made products. Don't be mad at me, be mad at low cost systems in big warehouse clubs that have set a price point that we all gotta compete against.
my only concern is to deliver products that my customer wants and the price that they can pay the rest is noise at this point
Now that is a dangerous notion. Perhaps the statement is more broadly applicable than you intended, but as currently stated there's not much that isn't able to be justified. I simply cannot entirely remove ethical considerations from my business decisions. Furthermore, I have some serious questions for anyone who says they blindly allow others to be the point on their moral compass.
I said I would question it. Certainly questions are meant to help us form judgement, and so I concede - after questioning and learning, I would indeed form a judgement. Unlike a deity I don't expect my judgement would be accepted by all. However, I sure hope they'd question me about it before forming their own conclusion as to the validity of my assessment.
If anyone here is interested in understanding what China does as a country to compete unfairly, Dump product in the market, and human rights abuses, a simple google search will provide you with plenty of examples of China doing everything from forcing prisoners to produce products, to the government subsidizing shipping of product and production of product, Building entire cities with little to no population living in them in them search (Chinas Ghost Cities) ), to flooding the market with cheap product in many cases representing it as something it is not. There is a TV series on Netflix called Rotten that also has many episodes that discuss how China is involved in this type of activity, and how it is a global problem. To your point of "Either sell me some Axis, Hanwha, or Avigilon product at Hikua prices or STFU." you could also say "Sell what is available of STFU" Any rules regarding this are applied equally to you and your competitors regardless of size. If you think its any easier for a large company to sell the customer on a more expensive product, that is a little naïve. Are you suggesting that a large integrator somehow does not have customers who want cheaper products? Perhaps learning about value adds, marketing, and how to sell higher end products to fit a customers need is a better use of time and resources than expecting suppliers to lower their prices. Just my 2 cents
meanwhile, all these comments are being written on phones and PCs built in China.
No one is perfect, the customer is right in the end and they choose how they spend their money.
Each one has their ideal client so do not judge how others make legal money.
i am also very certain that if you investigate each company you will find a few skeletons in their closets.
make money people, in the grand scheme of things. it does not matter. countries have trade deals with china, even the US and by the way in a year or so when these sanctions are lifted what will you say then. you think the corona virus is going to cause a boycott of china, what about the other diseases that originated there.
Today News: The Corona Virus was Sold from somone of the Harvard University. They get Millions over the last years to built that bioweapon factory in Wuhan.
Rothschild, Gates and the WHO want to vaccene all europeens. without vaccene nomore travel. That was in our today news. Dont take the vaccene!!!!!
I think they created with corona the need of the vaccene, a excuse that the economy crashes and kapitalism failed. Makting the people fear and so ready for a war with china. Like they did with 9/11 to take down 7 countrys in 5 years.
Exactly, Damion. Hypocrisy abounds for some of these people as long as it's convenient for them. They read IPVM on Chinese-made phones and computers, watch the news on Chinese-made TVs, drive vehicles with Chinese-made components, live in houses with Chinese-made consumer goods, and work in buildings with Chinese-made materials or components. But shame on you for daring to sell Hikua to a budget-oriented client, you morally-corrupt commie-loving traitor to humanity.
Well, not exactly. As I've pointed out in the past IPVM does a very good job (IMO) of reporting fairly on technology. When Hikua et al have products that perform well and do better than others, they report that honestly and without excuses.
Furthermore there have probably been just as many "hit" pieces on Western firms as there have been on Chinese ones. While I don't really agree with the context and language John uses sometimes as I too find it sensational and tabloid-esque, I'm willing to concede that he will call out anyone regardless of affiliation or nationality when he believes there's shenanigans.
Best case scenario; Hikvision and Dahua make their own open standard that doesn't suck, and others are forced to adopt it to avoid falling behind. Then ideally ONVIF dies a quick and painful death. #notbitter
Each manufacturer has their own API. If they are forced out of ONVIF, my guess is that they will still claim conformance without the official testing. Besides that they will just recommend their own API. Most VMS will recommend using native APIs for best performance. ONVIF is the lowest common denominator worst case (besides easy discovery).
Why would Hik/Dahua make their own standard? Why would they collaborate? What is the point/incentive for them?
In my great innocence, may I ask what it is the problem with ONVIF since you are a manufacturer and you see or live problems that I'm not aware? What is the biggest problem with the actual standard? Is it because there is political into that machine too? I thought it was a group of the manufacturer that assembles to try getting a better way to lay down some base and ground rule to be compatible among all product?
If China's manufacturer makes the rules and like you say the world has to follow, when and how could we give our say? Would that situation be really better for the world?
I'm not a specialist but I think the culture in China is more hierarchical and goes from top to bottom. Very efficient for production for example. That kind of way it is less efficient at creation. So I mean how it will evolve when it is set up? I also base my judgment on VMS GUI that in my opinion still years behind and had not evolved and still complicated events if there are many studies and capable people in the world who can make it very efficient.
It’s called PSIA and it was the competitor to ONVIF. ONVIF won, but that could be changed. Europe isn’t banning or sanctioning Chinese manufacturers to the extent the USA is.
COVID-19 changes all of that; thousands dead in Italy, UK, Spain, France, etc. from the virus Made In China. Many more deaths to come - just wait until Russia starts to feel the effects of COVID-19 deaths.
The effects of this virus are just starting to be felt in USA, let alone some countries in the EU.
In my experience and opinion ONVIF compliance means nothing unless you have tested the exact camera with the exact VMS using the exact firmware/software version. You can probably count on getting a video stream. But things that should be basics like motion detection, PTZ control, etc may or may not work or may stop working after a firmware update.
I'm not a programmer, but from what I've heard there isn't a simple standard command for motion detection. It should be a matter of the camera basically saying "hey VMS I've detected motion, start recording" it evidently is not, based on how often compliant cameras/VMS softwares fail to achieve this.
There are some who believe ONVIF's founders (Axis, Bosch, Sony) purposely left the specifications vague to avoid a truly open standard where you could expect any IP camera to work with any NVR/VMS without issues, as one could reasonably expect back in the analog days for the most part. I used to think this was a conspiracy theory, but after 10+ years in the industry it now seems reasonable to me.
To answer your question about China's manufacturers making an open standard, probably not a likely outcome, but I can dream...
Oh so funny when the USA takes the moral high ground just so that its own companies can benefit. Perhaps you should look at your own international dealings in relation to humans rights abuses before passing judgement on foreign companies. I guess though you are smart enough to do it via proxy so nothing can be pinned back to yourselves.
A very quick google search will give verified data and list all the USA companies linked to humans right abuses, many of which are specifically security related. I do not see you writing articles on these companies? If you are going to report on security companies that are linked to these types of abuses you could at least make it balanced. The narrative on your reporting is becoming so anti chinese that as a reader I simply start taking it with a grain of salt. I am not saying what is happening there should be ignored and yes it should be dealt with internationally quite heavily, I am just commenting on the nature of the reporting on this site.
A very quick google search will give verified data and list all the USA companies linked to humans right abuses, many of which are specifically security related.
If it's so quick why don't you share the names and links to evidence of that?
If you are going to report on security companies that are linked to these types of abuses you could at least make it balanced.
If you are right, for example, and US or Canadian or Swedish video surveillance companies are committing Dahua level human rights abuses, post it here, embarrass me, either forcing me to publish on them or exposing me as a hypocritic. Do it now.
The reality is there is no Western video surveillance company doing anything like Dahua and you choose to make an ungrounded accusation to distract from the reality. Again, if a 'very quick google search' proves it, do it and expose me.
I'm not sure what our industry can do to stop, alter, or prevent drone strikes but we could stop selling our customers products from a country that would like to see them dead.
The real problem is these companies in the US (it could be expected in other markets....some) are just selling crap. And they scream 'poor client, they can't afford expensive cameras' but they also don't care that the cameras going in don't work well with other solutions, the clocks will be off soon, no good secure firmware updates, easily hack-able and on and on. So while it's a 'poor client' thing....you're just selling cheap chinese products marked up 400%. Great for you but don't say poor client because you're not serving them well at all.....but you're making money.
We took over hikvision at 4 sites and good grief they are crap. Disconnect all the time on the network (there are 3 other camera types on the network), don't feed the video info correctly per any standard.....it's the little things that -good- integrators actually have to look out for with the client. Not the sell-it-and-forget-it model.
Is it FAIR? As our parent said to us, we say to our children, and our children will say to our grandchildren "Life isn't fair"...
It amazes me that as Americans in the "Security" industry we are willing to put money first and security last, We purchase and offer security products made in China, basically helping the worlds enemy secure personal information to disrupt the worlds way of life and they have succeeded. Just think of what your last 3 weeks have been like and tell me otherwise.
How fast we forget just to chase the dollar: Dahua was a vital part of our nations first DDOS attack with 1,000,000 of its devices used in this attack in 2016, then in 2017 a backdoor in Dahua cameras was discovered which trafficked data namely user names and passwords through the firewall to China, it was brought to Dahua's attention, Duha updated the firmware relocating the vulnerability to a different part of the code which would make one think it was intentional. HIK and Dahua have played key roles in mass surveillance on ethnic and religious groups in China but American rep firms and talented folks farmed from good companies went willingly to take the easy money selling inexpensive tech because its easy business!
Distribution: Our largest "Security" distributors latched on the the China band wagon as well offering white box or house brand. Some of these distributor often accuse reps of taking business direct but sell re-branded Chinese products against the same companies that made them so big. Why? For the almighty buck, you seeing a theme here?
China: The country that has brought us tainted food, eggs poisoned with metal, toxic rice, antifreeze tainted toothpaste, recycled cooking oil from sewers, Dog treats linked to kidney failure and death, Baby outfits that test positive with lead, lumber laced with formaldehyde, RADIOACTIVE drywall, Toxic dog food, Candy that had deadly melamine, Ginger with a pesticide that gave you flu like symptoms, Carcinogenic fish and tainted children's toys now brings us COVID-19 a crashing economy and death! But hey the stuff is cheap and it works!
Long term effect: The products above will raise cancer levels and deaths ranging from birth defects, early Alzheimer's you name it all in the long term goal of controlling the worlds economy and replacing the USA has the dominant country. Low and slow beneath the radar they've been attacking our way of life for decades by offering us cheaper products but poisoning us the entire time, what do we do? We keep letting them in the back door!
WAKE UP!
Chinese products should be 0% of your offering moving forward!
Chinese products should be 0% of your offering moving forward!
Choke the enemy...
Totally agree - my Apple iPhone is Made In China - and it will be replaced with a Samsung (or similar) that is Not Made In China. Everything else in my apartment will be replaced by Made In USA or EU.
Update: Hundreds of products submitted before the 3/31/2020 deadline are still being posted to ONVIF with approved dates after 04/01/2020. ONVIF reiterated the large numbers of products submitted by Dahua and Hikvision have caused this backlog. We will continue to check to see when the backlog has been finished and no other approvals are added.
We can still create a wrapper service that abstracts out Onvif functionality and achieves the same result. Numerous wrappers have already been written in Node and other frameworks.
Eric, thanks, yes, there are different technical ways to try to work around. And if all you care about is basic video streaming it should be fine. For more advanced or newer features, this increases the risk of it not working.
Does someone know if the brands are still blocked? we are from Integrators from Argentina and here in our market everything is Dahua or Hikvision, we are trying to prevent the people who specifies products to avoid putting no Onvif conformant products. But now I see at ONVIF website that some Hikvision devices has been added later than 4/1/2020.
Estanislao, as we mentioned repeatedly in this post, Dahua and Hikvision are still blocked. Dahua and Hikvision devices were added after April 1st only for test submissions done before April 1st, copying my April explanation:
Update: Hundreds of products submitted before the 3/31/2020 deadline are still being posted to ONVIF with approved dates after 04/01/2020. ONVIF reiterated the large numbers of products submitted by Dahua and Hikvision have caused this backlog. We will continue to check to see when the backlog has been finished and no other approvals are added.
Yes, Dahua and Hikvision are still suspended from conforming ONVIF products. How ONVIF implemented and publicized it did change, see our more recent report - ONVIF Hides Dahua And Hikvision Test Tool Blockage
Btw, are you hearing differently? I am curious what Dahua and Hikvision are saying about this.
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Comments (78)
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
As you point out, there's nothing to stop them from just putting an ONVIF sticker on the side of the box anyway. And we all know that Hikvision is shady enough to do just that.
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Will PSIA return in full force? Imagine if Dahua and HIK decide a global versus US based standard fits them and fully funds it
PSIA History
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Dear IPVM team, thank you for keeping us updated on it. I tried to get any official statement from ONVIF about it but they sent me to the website to get the information only from there. Do you have any official letter or statement from ONVIF claiming that the membership for these companies are suspended?
We hardly compete with them locally and in our country we have a regulation stating that only ONVIF compatible devices can be used in the projects for video surveillance. If we could have any kind of statement (on the letter-head) then it could help us a lot
Kind regards
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Jonathan Morin
In my opinion, ONVIF should not block those manufacturers. The division is not an answer to any resolving situation. And it may just add more mess in our industry. Their job is to create a standard across the world. That is it. Not take a position.
IF anyone has a concern with any behavior a manufacturer has, just don't buy his product. That is it.
This is the best way anyone could send a message. No customer = no money = no money = have to change or close business.
Take a statement on your company web page saying "we don't sell X product because of X."
If your customer doesn't care and want low-cost product what would you do? Take the responsibility or chicken out?
That the real question. What are you really willing to do and suffer for your belief?
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
Best case scenario; Hikvision and Dahua make their own open standard that doesn't suck, and others are forced to adopt it to avoid falling behind. Then ideally ONVIF dies a quick and painful death. #notbitter
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #7
In my experience and opinion ONVIF compliance means nothing unless you have tested the exact camera with the exact VMS using the exact firmware/software version. You can probably count on getting a video stream. But things that should be basics like motion detection, PTZ control, etc may or may not work or may stop working after a firmware update.
I'm not a programmer, but from what I've heard there isn't a simple standard command for motion detection. It should be a matter of the camera basically saying "hey VMS I've detected motion, start recording" it evidently is not, based on how often compliant cameras/VMS softwares fail to achieve this.
There are some who believe ONVIF's founders (Axis, Bosch, Sony) purposely left the specifications vague to avoid a truly open standard where you could expect any IP camera to work with any NVR/VMS without issues, as one could reasonably expect back in the analog days for the most part. I used to think this was a conspiracy theory, but after 10+ years in the industry it now seems reasonable to me.
To answer your question about China's manufacturers making an open standard, probably not a likely outcome, but I can dream...
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Undisclosed Distributor #10
Oh so funny when the USA takes the moral high ground just so that its own companies can benefit. Perhaps you should look at your own international dealings in relation to humans rights abuses before passing judgement on foreign companies. I guess though you are smart enough to do it via proxy so nothing can be pinned back to yourselves.
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Tobias Steiger
USA producs had it hard to compete with the chinese price / quality ratio.
So now they found something to try to kick them out of the comepetition.
It is so visible for everyone. Look what your goverment did to humans by itself.
It is a joke that they open their mouth and put the finger on chinese marketleaders.
Bye ONVIF! Hello Dahua!
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Tobias Steiger
Killing people in Afganistan, Irak, Syria and iran with USA Drones and Bombs is ok. But facerecognition for uygurs should be a crime?
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Hermin Sanchez
04/06/20 10:55am
Alright buddy I get your point but we are getting off topic here. I'm just as mad at you but take it out on ONVIF who made the decision
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Undisclosed Integrator #13
The real problem is these companies in the US (it could be expected in other markets....some) are just selling crap. And they scream 'poor client, they can't afford expensive cameras' but they also don't care that the cameras going in don't work well with other solutions, the clocks will be off soon, no good secure firmware updates, easily hack-able and on and on. So while it's a 'poor client' thing....you're just selling cheap chinese products marked up 400%. Great for you but don't say poor client because you're not serving them well at all.....but you're making money.
We took over hikvision at 4 sites and good grief they are crap. Disconnect all the time on the network (there are 3 other camera types on the network), don't feed the video info correctly per any standard.....it's the little things that -good- integrators actually have to look out for with the client. Not the sell-it-and-forget-it model.
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Undisclosed #16
Is it FAIR? As our parent said to us, we say to our children, and our children will say to our grandchildren "Life isn't fair"...
It amazes me that as Americans in the "Security" industry we are willing to put money first and security last, We purchase and offer security products made in China, basically helping the worlds enemy secure personal information to disrupt the worlds way of life and they have succeeded. Just think of what your last 3 weeks have been like and tell me otherwise.
How fast we forget just to chase the dollar: Dahua was a vital part of our nations first DDOS attack with 1,000,000 of its devices used in this attack in 2016, then in 2017 a backdoor in Dahua cameras was discovered which trafficked data namely user names and passwords through the firewall to China, it was brought to Dahua's attention, Duha updated the firmware relocating the vulnerability to a different part of the code which would make one think it was intentional. HIK and Dahua have played key roles in mass surveillance on ethnic and religious groups in China but American rep firms and talented folks farmed from good companies went willingly to take the easy money selling inexpensive tech because its easy business!
Distribution: Our largest "Security" distributors latched on the the China band wagon as well offering white box or house brand. Some of these distributor often accuse reps of taking business direct but sell re-branded Chinese products against the same companies that made them so big. Why? For the almighty buck, you seeing a theme here?
China: The country that has brought us tainted food, eggs poisoned with metal, toxic rice, antifreeze tainted toothpaste, recycled cooking oil from sewers, Dog treats linked to kidney failure and death, Baby outfits that test positive with lead, lumber laced with formaldehyde, RADIOACTIVE drywall, Toxic dog food, Candy that had deadly melamine, Ginger with a pesticide that gave you flu like symptoms, Carcinogenic fish and tainted children's toys now brings us COVID-19 a crashing economy and death! But hey the stuff is cheap and it works!
Long term effect: The products above will raise cancer levels and deaths ranging from birth defects, early Alzheimer's you name it all in the long term goal of controlling the worlds economy and replacing the USA has the dominant country. Low and slow beneath the radar they've been attacking our way of life for decades by offering us cheaper products but poisoning us the entire time, what do we do? We keep letting them in the back door!
WAKE UP!
Chinese products should be 0% of your offering moving forward!
Choke the enemy...
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John Honovich
Update: Hundreds of products submitted before the 3/31/2020 deadline are still being posted to ONVIF with approved dates after 04/01/2020. ONVIF reiterated the large numbers of products submitted by Dahua and Hikvision have caused this backlog. We will continue to check to see when the backlog has been finished and no other approvals are added.
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Eric Zimerman
We can still create a wrapper service that abstracts out Onvif functionality and achieves the same result. Numerous wrappers have already been written in Node and other frameworks.
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John Honovich
Update: ONVIF confirmed all backlogged (pre-April 1) Dahua and Hikvision submissions have now been processed.
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John Honovich
Uniview France trolling Dahua and Hikvision with a post emphasizing how Uniview is a full member of ONVIF and supported by Genetec:
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Undisclosed Integrator #19
Latest conformance fro Hikvision is on June and July, 2020 and Dahua on June, 2020.
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Estanislao Stancanelli
Does someone know if the brands are still blocked? we are from Integrators from Argentina and here in our market everything is Dahua or Hikvision, we are trying to prevent the people who specifies products to avoid putting no Onvif conformant products. But now I see at ONVIF website that some Hikvision devices has been added later than 4/1/2020.
Are there any updates?
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Tinus Diedericks
Is this status the same, still?
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