ONVIF Suspends Dahua and Hikvision

By John Honovich, Published Oct 09, 2019, 09:42am EDT (Info+)

Dahua and Hikvision have been 'suspended', and effectively expelled, from ONVIF, immediately following US sanctions being placed on the 2 mega Chinese surveillance manufacturers.

They join Huawei, also recently suspended by ONVIF for the same reason.

Inside this note, we examine what happened, share ONVIF's statement and how this will impact Dahua and Hikvision.

Update: ONVIF sent an email to members confirming this on 10/11/2019.

Update: Hikvision confirmed the suspension with an email to USA dealers on 10/11/2019.

Update: ONVIF has published an official statement on their website confirming this on 10/14/2019.

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Software ***** ********, ***** ****** ***

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Restrictions **** *** *****, **********, ***.

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Sanctions ******

***** *** ********* **** ****** ***** how ******* *** ********* **** ****** Dahua *** *********. *** ******* ************ are ******** ** ******* ***** (*.*., an ***** **** ** * ******* Digital **** *****). *******, ***** ***** already ***** ****** ********* ********* ****** (on ******), ******* ***** ******** ***** 'technology' ** **** ******* ** ** sanctions.

**** ** *** ***** **** ***** 'technology' ** ****** *** **** **** themselves ******* ***** ** *********, * key ******* ** ********* *** *********** an ****** ********* *** ****.

*******, ***** *********** ******* **** *** industry's **** ********* **** ** ***** a **** ** *** ***** ***** sanctions *** ******* ******.

Comments (85)

Are other Chinese manufacturers (such as Uniview, Tiandy and Milesight) affected?

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other Chinese manufacturers

Only PRC manufacturers on the US entity list are impacted, so Uniview, Tiandy, and Milesight are not.

For example, Megvii or Sensetime or Yitu (3 large facial recognition providers) would be suspended or not allowed to join ONVIF now, since those 3 are on the entity list.

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US is handing it on a plate to the Chinese.. They will just develop their own standards.. Like a CNVIF..

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Lol, China already does have its own standards with no foreign companies allowed, see: China PRC Government New National Video Surveillance Standards.

Pretty much, every time someone suggests or implies the US is being unfair to the PRC, the PRC has already done the same or worse to foreign video surveillance manufacturers.

They can try CNVIF but getting adoption is the key. OVIF is quite mature and overall well-liked.

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Just joking but take the point on board :)

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You earned yourself a funny!

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Is it safe to assume all the OEM's will also be removed from the Member list?

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OEM's will also be removed

I've asked ONVIF. That's a good point, I should have thought of this immediately. I will update when they respond.

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Ok, but their products still listed as conformant, only the new one’s will not be listed?

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Existing products are still conformant, new ones cannot, ONVIF confirmed.

Also, update, they added those products and the company names back to the website explaining just that:

There were some technical issues in changing the status of the members in the internal system. This caused the conformant products of the affected members to be temporarily hidden from view on the website. The existing conformant products and company names of the affected members are now visible again on the website.

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Is ONVIF going to add any info about this on their site?

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I don't think so, they did not add anything about Huawei on their site and they suspended them 3 weeks ago.

They did send an email out but just to ONVIF members 3 weeks ago about Huawei, partial screencap:

Given that precedent, I would expect at some point they send a similar email about Dahua and Hikvision.

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Why do they even have a website if they are not going post important info?

News & Events: English Archives - ONVIF

Blog: ONVIF Blog - ONVIF Blog

No info...

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ONVIF is not great at communication generally. On this specifically, my gut feeling is that ONVIF does not want to embarrass or appear to be critical of any manufacturer.

That said, it is a material change so they should make some form of clear notice, even if it is as buried as a Dahua vulnerability disclosure...

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Moreover, as ONVIF continues to develop new technology or tools to support expanding specifications, Dahua and Hikvision will not be allowed to access.

Somehow I don't think getting access will be an issue for those guys. Hasn't stopped them from getting access to other tech.

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Maybe it is time to recall that this year was an exception of ONVIF tradition to host internal meetings in Europe / Asia / North America / Asia schedule? This year it is UK / Japan / Hong-Kong / Italy.

Any official comments from them?

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Soon Chinesse Companies will launch there own standard of open platform and force all manufacturer to join them :-)

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I don't see this having any impact in the short term. They've seen this coming and it just forces them to start manufacturing the small amount of components that they buy from us themselves. We're essentially cutting business from our manufactures permanently more than hurting them.

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start manufacturing the small amount of components that they buy from us themselves

Let's see if they can make AI chips themselves. They might, I am not an expert in this space, but the fact that they widely use US technology / company AI chips, even though they clearly cost more, signals there is some material advantage.

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There are already AI chips being made in China by Chinese companies. Huawei is one of them and it's pretty evident in their mobile phone camera chip sets that they are ahead of the competition. Apple has just tried to catch up with the night time capability, but the consensus among international testers seem to be that the Huawei night images are better. Even if that was on a one year old chip set from Huawei.

I think it's wise not to underestimate the technological capabilities that are already present in China. And that capability will continue to rise sharply when you look at how much China invests in education. Both internally, but also by sending students abroad to be educated.

List of universities in China - Wikipedia "By May 2017, there were 2,914 colleges and universities, with over 20 million students enrolled in mainland China.[1] More than 6 million Chinese students graduated from university in 2008" and "As of 2018, the country has the world's second highest number of universities in the Shanghai Ranking Consultancy's top 500 universities."

Also looking at patents, it seems China is catching up fast and then also learning about the importance of IP. World Intellectual Property Indicators - Wikipedia

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I was watching a German TV documentary DW on youtube. The level of investment and focus on AI in China is unreal. Huawei has a fully smart city, even jaywalking is tagged and logged - scary but thats they want to control and move forward..

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I think it's wise not to underestimate the technological capabilities that are already present in China

That Dahua and Hikvision are buying USA AI chips says something more than patent or university count.

If you could simply conclude intelligence or capability based on, e.g., R&D engineer count, Hikvision would be #1, with their claimed 16,000 R&D engineers. But Hikvision's analytic products are mediocre and far inferior to a company like Avigilon with a fraction of Hikvision's engineers. Or XNOR.ai, etc.

The PRC may win, now they have their chance to prove it. If the PRC is really that confident, pledge off any US technology and show the world.

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Yes, it will be interesting to see where it ends.

From my angle, which is outside US, it seems like there is a much stronger national push for technological advancements in the far east in general. Definitely compared to Europe, but also compared to the US.

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China is in for the long term. Hikvision, a well made knock off, founded on stolen western technology should like all Chinese products should be banned immediately, instantly. If America does not slam the brakes and force CCP to comply with western business theory America will be overran silently in the same method the USSR got leeched and bent over by China.

America and the west is simply the next host the Chinese need to embed CCP theory into, manipulate and one day gain total control. Yes we can beat them in an arm wrestling contest with our military, but not so easily when our own team is financially growing by locking their money, technology, infrastructure into China. Self gain, self return and a one way street as that currency once placed is into China is non-convertible currency to the rest of the world, it is now China's money/technology/data/knowledge.

Short term you and only you may do well, building wealth while blindfolded that chinese intent is not free market road trip to democracy, but for the rest of us this could be erosion of the Constitution of the United States. Soon facebook, google, microsoft, boeing, general dynamics and many other US born entities along with our constitution will be owned, controlled and history rewritten into CPP rule by law instead of rule of law.

Fight or Submit?

Short Immediate Term. Ban it all, this is war. Bring our Constitution to post in every American place of business, worship, celebration, holiday irregardless of ethnicity, technology boundaries, ideologies or religion.

I can look at my future in two ways. 1. Freedom and Democracy, life as we have known it. 2. Under the totalitarian rule of the CCP, with dreams of what freedom was like.

At the end of the day life grows short, but what about the ones you love?

That being said. IPVM should consider eliminating all reviews of Chinese security technology. A ban has to be unanimous.

Short term thoughts?

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IPVM should consider eliminating all reviews of Chinese security technology. A ban has to be unanimous.

This has been raised and discussed here - Should IPVM Ban Testing Dahua And Hikvision Products Because Of Human Rights Abuses?

I understand where the sentiment is coming from but I don't think this is the best approach to dealing with testing and technical reviews.

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Keep on with the tests, there is always value in comparison.

How about a Patriotic disclaimer or 'smirk' when reviewing Chinese products.

*Clicks Link

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China is in for the long term. Hikvision, a well made knock off, founded on stolen western technology should like all Chinese products should be banned...

don’t forget they also “stole” a trillion dollars of our debt.

let’s get it back (minus interest)!

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"Short term thoughts?"

how can you post all those rambling, disjointed thoughts and then close with 'Short term thoughts?' and imagine that you are engaging in a discussion?

instead, your close implies that you don't care what others think about this subject.

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Accustation: rambling.

The discussion is open, nothing is closed, except your mind.

What matters is not what people think, rather than what is in writing and those that stand behind it, support it and willing to die for it, not just a simple one line or two line response.

I am talking about standing behind, supporting and dying for the US Constitution.

I would love to hear what BS angle you have.

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I would love to hear what BS angle you have.

lol

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As a not American, dying for a foreign nations constitution is not really on my bucket list.

IPVM caters to an international audience. Whilst you might bleed Red White and Blue, I care nothing for it.

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...the same method the USSR got leeched and bent over by China.

source?

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Source: Qiao Liang collab with Wang Xiangsui in Unrestricted Warefare.

Determination of concepts within the source: You as the westerner(perhaps) must deduce or read between the lines.

After the USSR had no more to leech for chinese welfare, Nixon and Kissinger are all of a sudden learning how to use chopsticks.

History is the teacher, even if it is archived digitally it is now being manipulated and structured to favorite those who control the worlds data. Forget oil.

This is why the USSR is shielding all of their internet and encrypting all the way down to the chicken soup in means of protecting their data while the US is living short term.

Do your own math, I do not have all the answers. Concepts remain the same assuming the perception of that concept is equal to skip that data without defaulting to meaningless debate.

Read between the lines, not mine but current affairs. No source needed.

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Source: Qiao Liang collab with Wang Xiangsui in Unrestricted Warefare [sic]

so you get your worldview from the PLA?

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I am only concerned with the welfare, freedom and constituent foundations of the our democratic society based on the Constitution of the United States of America.

We may be only 250 years old and under attack. This is the reason for concern. A reason to reconsider conceptions that are missed.

If one can assault without arms, then the other must be able to defend in the same manner.

I am sure there are other places you can construct an argument but here it is void. Even if your curiosity is at unrest, you need to find another place to drink.

/bye.

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IPVM is not reddit....

imagined profundity has a much shorter shelf-life here than in any subreddit that you apparently get your knowledge from.

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Correct, it is not reddit. Apparently that comparison comes from the likes or your post.

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Update: ONVIF emailed members confirming the suspension:

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Who are "PIXEL Design Sdn. Bhd." that Onvif have suspended?

They aren't on this list

Federal Register :: Addition of Certain Entities to the Entity List

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According to ONVIF, Pixelab is an 'affiliate' i.e., owned by Hikvision:

This is like Lorex who is suspended because they are owned by Dahua.

For example, contrary to what Hikision has claimed, Hikvision USA cannot participate in ONVIF member activities since they are owned by Hikvision, etc.

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still not a peep about it on their website, yet:

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I can see Hikvision /Dahua etc buying installers so they can install their kit by them..

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A further reaching question on this is that if ONVIF has suspended their account will a body such as UL follow suit? That could block installations in the private sector also.

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Update: Hikvision Email Confirms

Hikvision USA sent a 'special bulletin' to dealers acknowledging the suspension, emphasizing existing Hikvision ONVIF products are still ok and that they are communicating with ONVIF to somehow resolve this:

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Hikvision USA sent a 'special bulletin' to dealers acknowledging the suspension...

sounds like this suspension might not be applied to US OEM’s, such as LTS, giving them an unusual selling point:

LTS is 100% ONVIF compliant, unlike our manufacturer....

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Hello Everyone,

Anyone has a link or an official statement on the net that we can read.

I've searched many places and couldn't find anything on ONVIF website.

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Omar, for whatever (strange) reason ONVIF has not yet decided to publish anything on their website.

But, as you can see from the special bulletin from Hikvision, Hikvision has acknowledged this is true.

If you want further evidence, here is our communication with ONVIF's PR firm:

The person in that email thread is ONVIF's PR firm primary contact as shown from a recent ONVIF press release:

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Thank you John,

Let's wait and see if the banning will stick.

Perhaps they haven't made an official statement because it might somehow go away sooner that we expect.

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ONVIF says they are working on a statement for their website. Having dealt with ONVIF many times over the years, the issue is more likely reaching a consensus about what and how to say it amongst the various interests / companies involved.

We obviously will update when ONVIF makes further statement.

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Update: ONVIF has published an official statement on their website confirming this, excerpted below:

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One more update about ONVIF communication or lack thereof. While ONVIF has made a public statement on their website confirming that these companies are suspended, ONVIF refuses to properly label or remove these companies from the ONVIF member's list, e.g., current view:

ONVIF would only give a 'no comment' to why they would not accurately update their own member list.

It's bizarre, at least for most organizations, not so much for ONVIF, given their track record.

We will continue to follow up and push for a resolution on this. ONVIF doing this causes genuine confusion for many users who will go to ONVIF's own official member list and then conclude that these companies are not suspended, which is by virtue of ONVIF's own statement here, false.

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Even more interesting, that ONVIF approved new Dahua devices after suspension:

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#10, thanks, good eye, I verified that myself. I am asking ONVIF for immediate comment since this violates US sanctions.

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ONVIF's response:

ONVIF is not violating US law by allowing members to continue to use ONVIF IP that was shared with them prior to the EAR effective date. This ONVIF IP includes the test tool.

ONVIF elaborated that:

ONVIF is following guidance issued directly from the Bureau of Industry and Security as to how the activities of standard setting or development groups or bodies are affected by the EAR.

We are checking into this. Anyone with feedback or questions, let us know.

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ONVIF is not violating US law by allowing members to continue to use ONVIF IP that was shared with them prior to the EAR effective date. This ONVIF IP includes the test tool.

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We have followed up with ONVIF after further research into sanction prohibitions on standards groups. See: General Advisory Opinion Concerning Prohibited Activities in the Standards Setting or Development Context When a Listed Entity Is Involved.

In particular, see this excerpt of prohibited activities:

Our interpretation is that a sanctioned company like Dahua submitting products for conformance (via a non-public process / website) would be covered and banned.

The guidance also has instructions for requesting an advisory opinion:

For additional guidance on specific scenarios not captured in the examples above, exporters may request an advisory opinion under the procedures described in Part 748 of the EAR.

We have asked ONVIF if they have done so and can share what opinion that might be. We will update accordingly.

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Our interpretation is that a sanctioned company like Dahua submitting products for conformance (via a non-public process / website) would be covered and banned.

why do you think that?

the spirit of the restriction seems to be

The Entity List-based licensing requirement will turn on whether the activity involves the exchange, transfer, or other disclosure of technology or software that is of U.S.-origin...

imho, submitting via the test tool does not exchange or transfer or disclose U.S. technology to the entity.

and specifically in the example you quote, how do you imagine submission via the test tool gives “access to documents or materials uploaded?”

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I recall that Sony (Bosch) was one of the original sponsors of ONVIF. Sony cameras are made in China. Not sure who in China makes Sony cameras, but if it's HIK or Dahua, does that mean that Sony (Bosch) cameras are subject to the same ONVIF restrictions?

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i doubt it, it doesn’t appear that even Hikua OEMs are affected.

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Sony has its own factory in China. not OEM.

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Does anyone have any updated info on this? I overheard someone saying that Hikvision had been re-instated, but have seen nothing to support this?

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There's been those rumors but there is no change and the notice is still on ONVIF's website:

As ONVIF says, it will remain in effect until the US drops EAR (i.e., sanctions) against these companies.

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Update: ONVIF has deleted / redirected their media statement, though no explanation why or if the suspension has changed. The screencap below shows the original URL being redirected to a 'trashed' link that 404s:

We've contacted them officially but given it's Dec 24th, not sure when an official response will be provided.

The original announcement (archived) stated that the suspension will remain in effect until the companies are no longer sanctioned:

The sanctions remain.

One thing we have heard is that bids are being released excluding companies that are suspended by ONVIF, which has become a problem for the suspended companies.

We will update when we have more information.

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The screencap below shows the original URL being redirected to a 'trashed' link that 404s:

how’d you catch it? permalink notification service?

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Someone reported it. We do have a weekly links down report that I just checked. It says the link was first reported down last week.

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what a company puts out is less interesting than what it cuts out.

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Hikvision is showing as a full member Member List - ONVIF

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Yes, None of the suspended companies had their listings removed outside of a brief moment at the beginning. So that aspect is not new, i.e. even when the statement confirming their suspension was up, the companies were shown as still being members, which is, of course, very confusing.

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Update: ONVIF has responded with 'no comment' both to why the statement was removed and to what the status of Dahua and Hikvision's membership is.

This is highly unusual. My understanding is that, per their previous public comment about this lasting until sanctions are removed, they have not been reinstated but why they have taken the unprecedented step of no commenting on a basic piece of information like membership status, is unclear. We continue to look into this and will update accordingly.

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Playing devils advocate, there is no longer a document available that details the suspension which is also substantiated by ONVIF's "no comment" to the status.

You will of course say, that since no counter document has been issued, the original is still valid - but the writing is on the wall regardless. ONVIF are back pedalling and Hikvision will be reinstated - although I'm sure you'll feel this is unpalatable. How they publicly manage this about turn is a challenge, but one that they are committed too - as time will tell. The "no comment" speaks volumes.....

Once the tariffs drop (they will), the ONVIF confirmation statement will be issued - proving it was only ever about trade.

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Once the tariffs drop (they will), the ONVIF confirmation statement will be issued - proving it was only ever about trade.

No one has ever claimed that the ONVIF suspension has anything to do with tariffs. That does not even make sense. ONVIF has no relation to tariffs nor would ONVIF suspend anyone over tariffs.

If Dahua and Hikvision are members in good standing, than ONVIF should be able to simply say that, yes/no? If I ask ONVIF if Axis is a member in good standing, would ONVIF no comment to that?

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ONVIF has now confirmed that there has been no change in Dahua or Hikvision’s membership status. However, they are still declining to comment about why the statement was removed.

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What does that mean? Are they suspended or not? Can future products from Dahua be ONVIF confirmed or not? We‘re confused.

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#17, they are suspended, ONVIF reconfirmed. Until the current test tool is deprecated, which will be in the next few months, Dahua, Hikvision, etc., ONVIF will allow their products to be confirmed / conformant. However, ONVIF says US sanctions bar them from giving access to new test tool versions which will block them from further conformance.

We are preparing a new post on this.

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Ok, thanks! But as it is stated „Dahua and Hikvision can still develop and offer software that is based on ONVIF's specifications since those are public.“, what is the problem for them? They can still then develop IPCs and NVRs, which are confirm with Onvif specifications, as the specifications are public. So, could you explain the problem for them? Is it only not having the right of labeling their products as OFFICIALLY ONVIF confirmed?

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Good question.

They can still then develop IPCs and NVRs, which are confirm with Onvif specifications [emphasis added]

Well, they cannot 'confirm' or 'conform' with ONVIF since using and passing the test of the ONVIF test tool is required for conformance.

They can certainly, like lots of small players, claim conformance but it will be illegitimate because per ONVIF's rules, only those products that are conformed using the ONVIF Test Tool may be marketed as ONVIF conformant.

Moreover, these companies are blocked from getting technical communication or assistance from ONVIF or ONVIF members in how to implement ONVIF specifications, which will undermine their ability to do so. This was explained in the email to ONVIF members:

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Who is Per Bjorkdahl?

This is a net negative for the industry, but a huge plus for Axis (and others, but Axis plays a central role here, so I am singling them out).

I haven't seen any talk of the HDMI organization banning Chinese companies, in fact their site has a section for China and there is a myriad of Chinese adopters. The adopter list includes Hikvision, Dahua and Huawei as current adopters.

What am I missing here?

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I haven't seen any talk of the HDMI organization banning Chinese companies

I am not familiar with the HDMI organization but I am familiar with the process that leads to these suspensions. The standards process must have a non-public component and it has to involve the US / US technology to fall under US export control. ONVIF's test tools, development process, and internal discussions are non-public.

Note: our new post is up - ONVIF Trashed Statement, Confirms Dahua and Hikvision Still Suspended

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Well, they cannot 'confirm' or 'conform' with ONVIF since using and passing the test of the ONVIF test tool is required for conformance.

will the current tool, after its deprecated, be totally useless, or will it still be able to certify Profile S in its current form, and just not work with any forward specifications?

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Hikvision and Dahua seems to be full Onvif members they are getting new test validations all the time so it seems that this proclamation is not valid any more.

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they are getting new test validations all the time so it seems that this proclamation is not valid any more.

No, it is still valid, we just checked with ONVIF.

You are right that they are getting new postings on ONVIF, but all of them are backlogs from what was filed before April 1, 2020. See: Hikvision And Dahua Now Blocked From Conforming ONVIF Products

As for #8's comment / discussion: ONVIF says "this new rule does not apply to Hikvision or Dahua" so there is no change to Hikvision or Dahua's ONVIF status. If or when ONVIF provides feedback on Huawei, we will update accordingly.

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Does this mean that it will break the integration between Dahua and Milestone since Milestone is currently using the ONVIF driver for connection? Would Milestone need to create specific drivers for functionality with all future Dahua cameras?

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Hi John, is the status quo still the same, is there an update on this article?

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Yes, Dahua and Hikvision are still suspended from conforming ONVIF products. How ONVIF implemented and publicized it did change, see our more recent report - ONVIF Hides Dahua And Hikvision Test Tool Blockage

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