Will Hikvision Beat Genetec In VMS Software?

IPVM

Genetec's CEO continues to enrage Hikvision, most recently Genetec's ASIS giveaway taunting untrusted devices like Hikvision's.

And Hikvision, early this year laid down the gauntlet with Hikvision executive Jeffrey He declaring:

Whatever his twisted motive, Genetec’s leadership is running fast in the wrong direction.

The scale and complexity of what we’ve done in China cannot be matched by a software such as Genetec.

This came up again last week, fellow Fortem's CEO contended:

But my reasoning is that Genetec's long-term competitive threat is that cheap/free recording software continues to improve in quality, making the whole category more commoditized, and make it increasingly hard for Genetec to sustain a premium price. Certainly Hikvision has enough of a warchest to continue improving their software and catching up feature-wise with Genetec.

So, it brings up a good topic. Will Hikvision Beat Genetec In VMS Software?

Vote below / comment inside / our thoughts in the first comment.

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John Honovich

IPVM

I think it would be very hard for Hikvision to beat Genetec in VMS software. A few reasons:

Technical focus: Excelling at hardware manufacturing (which Hikvision does) is much different than excelling at software development. The skills, temperament, organization, etc. do not carry over. You see Hikvision struggling at basic cybersecurity issues and that is a good example of a company who has a hardware rather than a software focus.
Business model: Genetec lives and dies by selling software, so it has every motivation to build the best software it can. Hikvision is the opposite, its money is in hardware and it produces software to the extent it needs to get the hardware sold. Because of that, software will be viewed as more of necessary cost rather than a strategic asset.
Hikvision already claims 10,000 'engineers'. If they are that far behind Genetec with 10,000, it creates skepticism that the next 10,000 'engineers' they add will solve that. Throwing bodies at software development does not miraculously solve this, mythical man month, 10x developer, etc.
Genetec is very effective at releasing new software - including their various cloud initiatives, their not-PSIM PSIM, their vertical strategy of 'Sense' software - retailsense, airportsense, citysense, etc. It would be one thing if Genetec was mediocre or standing still with their VMS software but they clearly are not.

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Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified

Devil's advocate counter points:

VMS software is relatively mature, in terms of feature set at this point. Evolutionary, not revolutionary changes are to be expected at this point. This leads to smaller and smaller differentiation between products even at the high end.
Hikvision has shown little restraint in copying ideas, part and parcel, when they deem them worthy. Everyone does this of course, to a degree, but Hik does it as if it's part of their business model.
Hik has seemingly deep pockets, and has shown they are willing to sacrifice profitability in the short and even mid term to achieve their goals. Although this will not enable 1-month gestation cycles, there is much that money can buy, aside from developer resources, that are necessary for success, e.g. marketing, support...
Hik has been getting better at software. Although Hik may be viewed by some as a hardware company, all their devices require firmware, aka software. Cyber security lapses aside, IMHO, their client software/web interface has much improved over the last few years.

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Undisclosed #5

In reply to Undisclosed #2

VMS software is relatively mature, in terms of feature set at this point.

In terms of features... arguable. In terms of security, far from it.

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Undisclosed #2

In reply to Undisclosed #5

IPVMU Certified

In terms of features... arguable. In terms of security, far from it.

Yes, this is my point, their success is proportional to their effort.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #2

IPVM

#2, good counters!

Feedback:

At the high end there is definitely room for differentiation - unified access and video, vertical specific features, integration of niche products that high end users require, cloud, enterprise management, redundancy, etc.
In terms of copying, a lot of the copying comes from getting it from others (TVI -> Techpoint, better low light, smart codecs - Ambarella, etc.). Where is Hikvision going to get enterprise software VMS code from?
Money: I agree if they could simply buy it and put it in, they would certainly do it and do well at it but I don't see this being available. Maybe they could make Canon an offer they could not refuse but Hikvision already tried and failed to buy Milestone a few years ago.
I think Hikvision has gotten better at software but at a very fast pace. For example, the problems with Hik-Connect that continue to persist (lack of features, slowness, instability), e.g., their top UK distribution partner is still recommending port forwarding even with Hik-Connect. And Hik-Central, even by Hikvision's own admission, is mostly iVMS-5200 reskinned, which has been around for years outside the US and is still nowhere near Genetec.

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Undisclosed Integrator #7

Hi John, I know and have experiences in both sides, SI(employee), manufacturer A, manufacturer B, and now SI (owner) and I see the market from many point of view. The budget, low pricing and business model are winning this battle. You've seen on last revenue report. Low pricing in all segment are stronger than hi-tech, design or. I see "single battles-wins press-releases" but ... just ask for numbers in main distributor, profits and relations, this numbers said another msg...

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #7

IPVM

#7, you can certainly speak better for your portion of the world than I can. However, in North America, the high priced, premium featured companies are still doing quite well in larger projects. The 'numbers' for Axis, Avigilon, Genetec, Milestone, etc. show that. And the challenges that the Hikvision USA enterprise sales team have faced shown that too.

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Undisclosed #1

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

It is not a question of will they, they already have. You do not nor will you ever lend credit to the abilities of Hikvision. Your view is clouded by the government, the way of the Chinese people, etc. They are not the Bad guy, they are not the industry bully, they are a complicated, smart organization of people that has created an organization that has become a leader in the Industry.

It's a strategic question that will answered in time.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

Oh no, has Marty gone 'undisclosed'?

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Undisclosed #2

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

IPVMU Certified

Oh no, has Marty gone 'undisclosed'?

Oh no, has Genetec?

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Undisclosed #5

They are just like the typical security industry player: full of hot air and software flaws.

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John Honovich

IPVM

#3, I'll humor you. How have they already beaten Genetec in VMS software? Please explain.

From previous comments, you have made the point that Genetec is features 'no one' uses. If that is still your contention, please confirm.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

It is not a question of will they, they already have.

What is Hikvision's version of Stratocast?
What is Hikvision's version of Mission Control?
What is Hikvision's version of Federation?
What is Hikvision's version of CHAVE?
What is Hikvision's version of Synergis?
What is Hikvision's version of video trickling?
What is Hikvision's version of Clearance?

Show us where Hikvision has a viable competitor to these aspects of Genetec's offerings if you are going to claim they "already have" beaten Genetec somehow.

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Undisclosed #6

In reply to Brian Karas

You need to compare Hikvision vs. Genetec by intellectual resources accessible by both. Do not assume Genetec will have the throne for ever. Look who is dedicated financially and spiritually to each opponent now and in the future. Genetec can wave the flag right now but I really do not see them besting the a math based culture. The Quebecoise group will have a great challenge on their hands.

Enough of these click bait analogies.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #6

IPVM

besting the a math based culture

What is 'a math based culture' and how does that relate to enterprise VMS software?

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Undisclosed #5

It's the finite supremacists.

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Kyle Folger

IPVMU Certified

Looking at just the software interface alone, I would rather use and would rather train people on DW Spectrum or Avigilon all day long. They need to greatly improve the user interface. Being functional is not enough. If Hik software isn't ahead of Spectrum and Avigilon, it's not going to be ahead of Genetec.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

Hikvision may be able to take on some lower-end VMSes, but not likely Genetec any time soon.

China, overall, is not known for putting out great software. Most lists of "China top software companies" show Chinese versions of things like Amazon, Facebook, Google, etc., all adapted for the Chinese market, not as global offerings. In some cases, like Alibaba, they exist to provide a conduit to Chinese manufacturing (China's core strength in this sense).

Basic record/view/search VMS functionality may be within Hikvision's reach, but Genetec is really one of the more complex VMSes, targeting users who value integrity of the software over price alone. I do not see Hikvision posing a threat to Genetec in the global high-end VMS market.

People can often name several Chinese hardware companies, but ask them to name Chinese software platforms (enterprise or otherwise), and they tend to come up blank.

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Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified

In reply to Brian Karas

I do not see Hikvision posing a threat to Genetec in the global high-end VMS market

How high is high-end in your estimation? Million plus deals or $100,000 or ?

And then what percentage of Genetec's sales are those? Since the question at hand is not limited to whether Genetec can be challenged on only their high-end sales, but overall.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #2

IPVM

And then what percentage of Genetec's sales are those?

I think Genetec's sales are overwhelmingly high-end and have been for many years. Even in the 'consumer'/'residential' market, the only meaningful market share is what they have through high-end partnerships like Comcast SmartOffice or Genetec Community Connect. Beyond that, Genetec is city, airports, chain retailers, etc. Rumor has it they have not won a Chinese buffet for years...

To the extent that Hikvision moves up market in VMS / recorders, they are much sooner going to hurt Exacq and Milestone. And do you see Exacq and Milestone excited to bring Hikvision in? The 3 biggest Western VMSes are either potential enemies (Exacq and Milestone) or bitter rivals (Genetec). Hikvision has a lot of money, no doubt, but that is a lot of headwinds to face.

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Undisclosed #5

In reply to Brian Karas

For a person who doesn't know Genetec, how would you sum the advantages it has over other VMSs in an enterprise environment? I wonder if they're just as broken as their respected competitors or if someone should test...

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

I think a simple yes or no answer is a difficult one at the moment. Working for a manufacturer who produces one of the leading VMS platforms I would like to say NO but maybe it should be NOT YET. They would have the financial means with their government backing I'm sure to develop a decent VMS but I also agree with John and Brian and the points they make about how Hik is hardware focused. It doesn't take an expert to see that they are struggling in the software department as is with multiple shaky firmware and software releases etc.

It would take a fairly radical change in direction for Hik and a considerable amount of time to come up with something decent that people will trust. The alternative of course is that they buy a company that already has a decent VMS offering. I know Hik have made attempts at doing this but clearly these have been unsuccessful for now.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

How do you determine "beat"? If it's sales, then yes.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

In reply to Sean Nelson

What software is Hikvision selling, and how you are comparing it to Genetec (revenue, number of licenses sold, etc)?

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Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified

What's the timeframe here? 1,3,5 yrs, more?

Did Hik "beat" Axis?

Whatever they did to Axis, who predicted it in 2010?

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Christian Laforte

I answered No to the census, despite my earlier comment.

It's a long-term strategic risk for Genetec, but the risk is IMHO low currently. It would have been much higher without Genetec's strong marketing push to denounce Hikvision cybersecurity issues. They made it less attractive for Hikvision to compete heads-on in the higher-end VMS market. Ironically, IPVM spreading awareness might eventually cause them to finally fix their most glaring cybersecurity problems and then they'd have a shot at going for more, larger enterprise customers. (At least the ones for which Chinese competition and risk of espionage aren't a primary concern.)

From a technical standpoint they can catch up if they really wanted to. They have enough money to hire Western software development talent if they want. Improving their UI and implementing the core missing features (e.g. Federation) isn't that hard.

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John Honovich

In reply to Christian Laforte

IPVM

It would have been much higher without Genetec's strong marketing push to denounce Hikvision cybersecurity issues. They made it less attractive for Hikvision to compete heads-on in the higher-end VMS market.

I am pretty sure that the reality is the complete opposite.

Remember, Hikvision makes very little, if any money, selling VMS software and their priority is clearly developing and selling hardware. Hikvision would be much happier with Genetec, Milestone, etc. partnering with them and letting Hikvision take the camera business.

Genetec's move creates the opposite impact. Because Genetec has now blocked Hikvision from so many enterprise accounts, Hikvision now has to work harder to get an alternative VMS (their own or someone else's) or forego all that camera revenue.

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Christian Laforte