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It Wont Be Long Before Hikvision Will Be Dominating The Access Control Industry Like They Already Are In Surveillance. Boom Shocka Locka!

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Sean Nelson
Oct 20, 2017
Nelly's Security

It wont be long before Hikvision will be dominating the Access Control industry like they already are in surveillance. Boom Shocka Locka!

I'll be happy when they start to offer wireless alarm systems. This industry is begging for a disruptor right now.

Will be nice to tie it all together in one software. I wonder when they will be offering NVR/Access Control plug n play all in one units.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Hikvision Access Control Tested

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 20, 2017
IPVM

It wont be long before Hikvision will be dominating the Access Control industry like they already are in surveillance. Boom Shocka Locka!

Thank you Sean! :) I made this its own discussion. I'll let others debate Hikvision's future dominance (or not) of access control.

For more of Sean's best, see I Dont Really See Hikvision Competing With Anyone. They Are So Far Ahead Of Everyone Else.

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Sean Nelson
Oct 20, 2017
Nelly's Security

Thanks! Even got the Boom Shocka Locka in the title, as it simply wouldn't be the same without it.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 24, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Even got the Boom Shocka Locka in the title, as it simply wouldn't be the same without it.

Actually that’s all it needed:

Locka = Locks
Shocka = Electric
Boom = The sound made when prices hit rock bottom

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Oct 24, 2017

Boom = The sound made when prices hit rock bottom

Boom = What the ChiComs are trying to lower on the US, and the world in general.

 

Fixed that for you.

MM
Michael Miller
Oct 21, 2017

 Sean you road the Dahua horse for along time and got burned which I am sure cost you time and money.   Fast forward 3-5 years what is your backup plan when Hikvision does the same thing?  What makes you think the same think will not happen with Hikvision?

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 21, 2017
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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Sean you road the Dahua horse for along time and got burned...

Mixed metaphor violation w/ incorrect homonyms.

Suggest: "Sean you rode the Dahua horse for a long time and got thrown..." :)

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 21, 2017

Yea I saw that but only have 30min to edit :(

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Sean Nelson
Oct 23, 2017
Nelly's Security

I made alot of money when we i was riding the Dahua horse. I was smart enough to put that horse to pasture late last year though.

Toot Toot! Now im on the Hikvision train and making a great living doing it.

Hikua haters will take this as me just selling these products for money. Far from the truth, Im able to offer a great product to small biz and home owners at a fraction of the price of the overpriced name brand stuff. Further, Hikvision is oftentimes a better product. The reliability is there as well. So if Im able to make people satisfied and make a living doing it, its all good to me.

Now, I must get back to making obscene profits.

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 23, 2017

Seems like you have a lot of loyalty to Hikivsion what loyalty do they have for you? 

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Sean Nelson
Oct 23, 2017
Nelly's Security

Im not married to them by any means. We are always looking for ways to diversify. But right now, they are firing on all cylinders. Its a good partner to be in business with and the future continues to look bright.

As far as the Amazon thing goes, I dont necessarily love it. Im not sure what it involves, it could just be for Ezviz, who knows. But I do understand the need to get current with today's buyer, and todays buyer wants stuff fast and quick and they want to buy it off the internetz. At any rate, we have been battling Hik And Dahua products being sold on Amazon for years, wont be nothing new. 

I try not to be a hard headed complaing geezer everytime a manufacturer makes a business decision I dont like. I always try to put myself in their shoes and see what they are trying to gain. I mean if it ultimately hurts me or my business model, I will move on, I've done it before with a previously mentioned manufacturer, like I said, Im not married and you shouldnt be married to any one manufacturer either. But right now, we are still doing well with Hik and the near future looks great as well.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Oct 21, 2017

I suppose they can push their access products out through their existing distribution networks, which I assume are massive, but apart from that, do they really have any long term advantages in access control? I'll throw a few "Devils advocate" arguments out there:

  • Lower cost manufacturing? On this front they are competing with western companies who can push out their manufacturing to a growing list of countries more competitive than China e.g. Mexico, Vietnam? 
  • Robotic manufacturing is on the rise in the West. China could also benefit from this you may say, but does the Chinese government throw so much money into Hikvision to see them fire their workers and replace them with machines? The West on the other hand has transitioned more to a service based economy than China, so moving to robotic manufacturing may be easier.
  • Innovative products? Access control is different to camera and VMS manufacturing, both software and hardware. It is a lot easier to develop an access control product, and while there is always room to innovate, you hit a wall sooner with access control beyond which it does't really need to do anymore. So I am not sure having massive development resources will help you that much. 
  • One thing I notice now with access control compared to 20 years ago, is the amount of time spent on writing software to integrate with third party products. This builds on the last point, I think with Access control, there is less emphasis on innovation and more on providing solutions/services. This implies there is a closer relationship between some installers and manufactures than one may think, and the smaller the manufacturer, the better that relationship.
  • As an example to build on that last point, I have worked for a few small and moderate size Alarm and Access control manufactures over the last 20 years. One thing I notice is the large amount of installer features that seldom get used by most installers e.g. there might be 60 different options and your average installer will only use a few of them. These are options that at some time the manufacturer might have added at the request of an individual installer. You are much less likely to get that kind of service from larger manufacturers, and hopefully that translates into loyalty from installers for us smaller manufacturers.

 

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Brian Rhodes
Oct 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I posted this response in the original thread, I will here too:

Hikvision access has good strengths, but I would be surprised to see them dominate in access in the existing channels.

Say whatever you'd want regarding Hikvision in defense, but the brand has some significant cybersecurity baggage to overcome that many 'access-only' providers do not have. Mix in the question/uncertainty/doubt of potential backdoors, and it is quite the uphill march.

Moreover, I'm not sure that Hik's strength the video installer channel translates to access installers. I know the lines are are increasingly being blurred between security systems and installers, but the incumbent access market is hard to break into, no matter how strong your brand in cameras may be.

See: Axis Admits Access Control Expectations Low for 'exhibit A' in that regard.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

It wont be long before Hikvision will be dominating the Access Control industry like they already are in surveillance.

No, though I can see why you would think that.

Hikvision dominates video surveillence primarily due to their hyper-aggressive pricing.

This is not sufficient though in EAC for at least 2 reasons.

  1. The cost of hardware is a much smaller piece of the total deal, because of the custom labor that goes into each entryway*. This blunts the advantage of saving a couple hundred on the hardware.
  2. Customers deal with a camera failing far better than when EAC fails.  Imagine if every time you've ever had a Hik camera fail, somebody was stuck on the wrong side of a door...

*As the saying goes, if you've seen one door, then you've seen one door :)

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JH
Jay Hobdy
Oct 21, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I don't see it.

Personally I want a partner that can help me and I do not see that with HIK. They have been stubborn about their security issues. Why would I think they would listen to the market in the US for a specific feature, or program modification?

I posted this and then found this as I went through the articles.

HIK circumvents dealers by selling on Amazon

Why would I partner with them?

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JB
Josh Bylsma
Oct 22, 2017
BLUEmark Technologies

 

I disagree that Hik will take over the access control market or even become a major player. The access control (EAC) market is a very different than the video surveillance market. Simply assuming that a low cost solution is the answer to becoming a dominate player is a limited perspective, as there are already many low costs, EAC solutions that have yet to make significant dents to the market.  

 

First, I state this as one with experience selling EAC platforms across the US and Canada. from closed proprietary systems to open, Mercury based systems. In general, integrators are less likely to switch EAC platforms than they are video platforms. There are several reasons for this:

 

  • Training techs on new EAC platforms is costlier, in both the training required as well as the loss of productivity in the field. EAC is more complicated than its big brother, video surveillance. This has been proved out many, many times I have talked with integrators and even here on IPVM. Lenel is listed as one of the most “disliked” EAC platforms available, yet they are still a major player. When talking to Lenel partners, the reason they do not change… cost of on-boarding a new product.
  • System integrators that have a well-balanced EAC and video surveillance business structure, are usually well established, legacy integrators. They have a strong influence on local RFPs, consultants and customer bases, meaning that uprooting an established EAC brand in a region will take years.

 

Second, there have been other, great low cost options in the market for years. A great example is infinias (I used to work for them). A great product, PoE powered, low cost, video integration options… etc. While they have some traction, they have never been able to become the “break-out” product that they should have been. Infinias is not the only option, there are others. Cost alone will not be a driving factor.

 

Third, video guys cannot sell EAC. (I know some video guy is going to argue this point) EAC is a technical sale, video is a sexy sale. In-other words, just because Hik has an extensive distribution, RSM and dealer network, does not mean they will be able to sell EAC. It is especially difficult to sell a rip-n-replace of EAC.

 

Example: Show the latest 4K camera with WDR against an old Pelco Spectra… easy sale. Conversely, what does a new EAC system do… opens the door just like the current one. This point is especially pointed with the Hik solution as they are not offering anything new, super secure or even exciting as it relates to the EAC market.

 

Forth, open must be the further of EAC. We can debate this for years, and I do have feelings on both sides of this argument, however the point has been well established in the industry and by major end-users… must be open! End-users hate getting locked into technologies, the cost of an EAC upgrade can be very high. Open platforms, such as Mercury and HID, provide the flexibility that end-users want.

 

I will concede that the Hik offering will gain some traction, indeed with existing Hik dealers. However, a dominate player in the US market, I highly doubt it. The EAC market is not like the video market. I have a lot more I could say about this point alone, but my post is already way to long.

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John Day
Oct 23, 2017
LMN Software Corp

In order to dominate the Access Control market they might have to figure out network security. I don't follow them closely but I haven't seen any changes on that front. Specifically, I don't see them having an open approach to disclosure of vulnerabilities or any change of direction with their "network hardening" approach.

If they have a history of being easy to hack, would you allow them to control entry to your building?

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U
Undisclosed #3
Oct 23, 2017

I don't have a dog in the fight, but I'd be really worried that a HikVision access control system might have magic passwords, or weak password reset algorithms and processes. Every access control company has a risk of being compromised, but HikVision has not yet demonstrated that they are capable of delivering secure solutions.

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Campbell Chang
Oct 24, 2017

They won't dominate on an enterprise level.

What they will do though is enable a site which has no EAC to become a 1 or 2 door site because the price point is now there for it.

This will enable a lot more video only guys to dabble in EAC. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Oct 24, 2017

I agree with the comments above.  Many video guys don't have the knowledge or ability to install access control so it doesn't matter.  Those that do will sell a product from a reputable access control manufacturer.  There are a lot of cheap imported products out there that have tried but didn't make a dent and this is one of them.  We are in the process of phasing out their cameras altogether.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Oct 24, 2017

I think Sean should be a stand up comedian, and I mean that in a nice way :-)

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 24, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I think Sean should be a stand up comedian...

Don’t forget about his “straight man”, MM, the other half of “Sean and Miller”...

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Joseph Parker
Oct 24, 2017

That's some high quality bait!

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Ryan Anderson
Oct 24, 2017

Its all opportunity. If you sell Hikvision, this will benefit you. If you don't sell Hikvision, it will benefit you. Take a moment to educate your customer and stop selling them off the shelf products.

If you don't provide value with your products and services, your probably in the wrong industry as its changing rapidly!

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 24, 2017

Guys, they will dominate on SMB market. We all know how sales guys work: they would never tell the customer about weak cybersecurity part of the product. Good price, top sales all over the world, blah-blah-blah

Only in case of enterprise when a customer has specialists (not every one) it will not work.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #6
Oct 24, 2017

Such an interesting trend.  10 years ago, everyone was lining up to get away from single manufacturer systems.  Only the dinosaurs were buying Pelco end to end without looking at Axis et al.  "Closed" and "proprietary" were obscenities, and "Open Source" was the buzzword of choice.

Today, we have people begging for the opportunity to install a single manufacturer product across their enterprise, murky lineage be damned.  For a decade, people were scared of getting "tied to one vendor", now people are singing the praises of installing a single line everywhere they can.

Ecclesiastes 1:9 (NIV)

What has been will be again,
    what has been done will be done again;
    there is nothing new under the sun

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
May 15, 2018

Just checking: Industry dominated yet?

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JH
John Honovich
May 15, 2018
IPVM

Jeez, it's only been 6 months, so it's hard to expect anyone to dominate anything in that time.

On the other hand, the last 6 months shows Hikvision expanding themselves into an increasingly wider set of products which is much harder to dominate. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
May 16, 2018

Many were convinced that the release of an ultra inexpensive product equaled immediate domination.  6 months is a lot of ADI counter days, ADI expos, and rubber-stamped continuing education credits to burn through without domination.  Surely this new product has been on sale for at least 4 of those months.  Does a perpetuall 40% off sale not equal domination?  Toys R Us is dominating my area with far less significant of discounts.

Are the OEMs not helping?  If you are an OEM enough time has passed to print off labels to cover up the Hikvision branding and swap out the logo in the web interface.  How long does it take to post a product to a website?  Grey marketers (creative OEMs?) have to be able to undermine a product in 6 months.  Are Amazon and Alibaba just slipping?

I will check back with Sean in 6 months for an update on the domination.

JH
John Honovich
May 16, 2018
IPVM

At least from the ADI side, I do not see Hikvision actively promoting access control that much. Looking at ADI flyers, ADI specials, ADI expos, etc., it's still almost always cameras, analytics, thermal, etc. So if Hikvision does not push access control (i.e., spend money on marketing it), it's not going to go far.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
May 16, 2018

I was being sarcastic.  I hope no one thought I was serious... I would have hoped the Toys R Us comment or checking in with Sean for an update would have given it away.

Six months on I think it's pretty clear Hikvision does not have much chance of success in access control.  Even giving away the panels does not mean that a Hikvision "plug and play" surveillance integrator has much chance of success cutting in an electrified lockset.

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John Day
May 16, 2018
LMN Software Corp

I got that (the tonge-in-cheek) in the original-

Your comment was a good reminder that not all sales are "box sales" and that there is some skill and planning that goes into access control that is not present in (most) video sale. 

The video market turned into a price driven sewer because there is (at least a perception) that there is little skill involved in the installation.

If you mess up cutting a door frame there is no going back!

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DR
Dennis Ruban
May 15, 2018

They have released a new Hikcentral V1.2 with Access Control module. I'd assume they will have good integration in the near future. For now, ivms-4200 provides more features.

In general, UI/UX sucks. But it's not just hikvision, it's typical for all the hardware manufacturers. I don't understand how come multi-billion dollar companies can't afford $35/hr user interface designer.

DR
Dennis Ruban
May 15, 2018

can you find well built and reliable enough 4-door controller for $500?

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