I dont really see Hikvision competing with anyone. They are so far ahead of everyone else. I think they would like to get into other facets of the market but I dont think they are sweating bullets about competing with anyone.
NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion.
If that is the case, why have they placed all their products on sale numerous times this year? e.g., Hikvision Hits Record 'ALL PRODUCTS' Sales Run.
Why would a company who is so far ahead of everyone else and not competing with anyone make such moves?
Sean since you're a Hikvision OEM distributor how do the constant sales from ADI and Tried effect your business.
Not too much really. Their sales prices are generally right around what our normal prices are unless your a beast customer that gets really special pricing. Generally speaking, Hik USA products are more expensive than OEM products due to the overhead of the Hik USA sales and support team (and sometimes 5 year warranty).
We've lost business to ADI & Tri-ed but its merely because of the convenience factor. The integrator can simply drive down the street and pick up the items the same day as opposed to waiting for it for 2-3 days from us. We try to differentiate and give people a reason to still buy from us with things like our branding program and dedicated support but sometimes the convenience factor over-rules that for some customers.
Every time I have questioned Hikvision about OEM products they always slam them as older inferior products compared to Hikivsion. Basically saying the OEMs get the left over / last year models. Is this true?
Not true at all. For example, the new low cost 4K cameras that were recently released were released to OEM and Hik USA customers at the same time and come with the same feature set.
Granted, there are some "higher end" models that aren't necessarily meant for OEM customers in which Hik USA markets heavier than your typical OEM. For example, their pano cameras and their 4K ptz and the like. We can still special order these type cameras for our project customers, but its not something we normally stock due to slow movement.
Premium brands are always using deep deep discounts. Look at Rolls Royce, or Chopard, or Zegna. Always with the sales...
Does buying or paying for market sure make a company #1 within that industry?
Because hik brand has depth of margin
hi watch hasn’t hit the price point
so now hik release hi look across Asia
at prices the make your eyes water
would does this do for the channel
hik
hi watch
hi look
just three different price points for virtually same camera
Oh gosh, this is its own thread, LOL. Im excited to see the "Hik Hatred" abound on this thread.
Lol!
To me, this is not about 'Hikvision hatred'.
Hikvision is clearly concerned about competition. To suggest otherwise, is not to 'hate' Hikvision but to give Hikvision credit that they understand market dynamics.
For example, Dahua is a real threat, not because they are better than Hikvision (I think we agree on that) but because they are willing to offer similarly aggressive pricing, marketing and local sales people. And, again, even if it is not as good as Hikvision, if it is close enough, lots of integrators will look to Dahua as something different to compete against local Hikvision dealers. Of course, this is mostly for the SMB.
In the enterprise, Hikvision is not only competing with Axis, Avigilon, Milestone, Genetec, etc., they are at a distinct disadvantage in Western markets. Those rivals not only have products that often are higher quality, they have longer local track records and, I know you don't care, but enterprise buyers care about cybersecurity and government ownership.
While I criticize Hikvision on some things, I certainly respect their ability to understand real market risks and I doubt they would view the competitive situation as lightly as you do.
I think the word you are looking for is not "competition". I believe the word you are looking for is "domination". I think they are more concerned about continuing to dominate and stay on top and concerned less about competing with lesser opponents.
As far as Dahua: Sorry I totally disagree that Dahua is a threat. More of a thorn in their side. Dahua is a good company but I feel they are just trying to beat Hikvision and that wont happen and they shouldn't care to. A bad comparision would be like overstock.com trying to compete with Amazon.Com, just will never happen. Just be your own company and try to differentiate and then maybe you will compete.
As far as Enterprise: I can see their need and desire to move more into the enterprise market, but Im not sure if they are overly concerned about it. I know they hit some road bumps and made some mistakes along the way but do feel they are making some of the right moves to get there. I agree their software isnt yet on the same level as the other major enterprise players but it will get there. Their cameras are up to par though. What im saying is I dont think they are sweating bullets by not being #1 in one segment of the market. Reason being is because they are #1 in the overall market. They will get there though.
I dont see Hikvision dropping from #1 in a while, they continue to fire on all cylinders. As long as they are, it will be good business for Hik, Nelly's and IPVM. Good time to be alive.
I think they are more concerned about continuing to dominate
Let's bring some numbers to this discussion. In 2016, Hikvision did ~$1.4 billion in sales outside of China. I estimate roughly half of that is OEM, half is branded sales. Also, I estimate, the non-China video surveillance market is ~$10 billion a year (roughly what IHS say, e.g.).
This means Hikvision (including OEMs) has ~14% market share outside of China and ~7% for Hikvision branded. This is not anything close to domination.
I am betting in your market segment, you are seeing domination for Hikvision, whether that is 50%, etc. Both can be true.
Hikvision internationally is doing best in low quantity, low average selling price sales. They are doing worse in high quantity, higher average selling price sales. For example, how do you think Axis and Avigilon did ~$1.2 billion last year with virtually nothing sold inside China?
So if Hikvision is content to dominate China, I suspect they will continue to do so. After all, an authoritarian government as owner helps significantly.
However, Hikvision knows they are not 'dominating' the rest of the world and certainly not North America, outside of the low end of the market.
So if Hikvision is content to dominate China, I suspect they will continue to do so. After all, an authoritarian government as owner helps significantly.
However, Hikvision knows they are not 'dominating' the rest of the world and certainly not North America, outside of the low end of the market.
This is the Chinese news I like to hear and agree with. It would be nice to have some US companies that design, manufacture and sell with a "Made in USA" sticker. And only available to buy through qualified distributors at a slightly higher price than DaHik. But as far as I know there isn't. And we definitely didn't want to sell Dahua or Hik. But Uniview was a perfect fit
I think they will surpass DaHik on non-China sales soon. Uniview sees the mistakes of DaHik and so far are doing a good job not following in the their footsteps. They may have a smaller selection, but I consider that a benefit and shows they are more focused on quality not quantity. Same as their relationships with distributors. They are relatively small and unheard of in the US compared to DaHik, but they are building a good foundation worldwide that will pay off in the long run.
And my opinion is obviously biased, but even if we didn't sell Uniview product, I would still vote them as a top contender. They have the home field advantage manufacturing in China, and have the other visiting Chinese teams getting booed and heckled off the playing field.
NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Uniview Will Surpass Dahua/Hikvision On Non-China Sales Soon
This means Hikvision (including OEMs) has ~14% market share outside of China and ~7% for Hikvision branded. This is not anything close to domination.
Wouldn’t that also make them the biggest supplier in the West by a factor of >2X over Western based mfrs?
Also, in terms of measuring ‘domination’, wouldn’t it be appropriate also to consider total #units sold as some part of the equation? Could that be 3X?
As an intentionally extreme example to only illustrate the concept, if someone were selling decent cameras for $10, their effect on the market would be far more than just their sales $ would suggest.
Full disclosure: My experience with Hik is limited to a grey market dome bought on Amazon, that I ill-advisedly ‘upgraded’ ... to spare change dish.
Funny. I read the headline and thought you were just trying to stir something up because of the lack of Hik debate lately.
Just curious as to why www.nellyssecurity.com makes no mention of Hikvision and theres no branding on any of the products on your site. This question isnt meant to instigate any hatred or negativity towards you or Hik whatsoever. Just found it interesting to be such a fan of the brand, but you dont advertise or promote it.
No problem. OEM customers are asked not to advertise the Hikvision brand on public avenues in order to not compete with Hik USA brand and prevent OEM customers from calling Hik USA for support. If you are familiar with LTS brand, we are similar in that aspect but with a slightly different business model in which we re-brand the products for our integrators with their logo's and model numbers. only reason i mention it on here is because this is a closed forum and most readers here are intelligent enough to know who the Hik OEM's are anyways.
know who the Hik OEM's are anyways.
Yes, or they can visit our Hikvision OEM Directory
Sean, can you clear up a point of contention regarding OEM vs branded Hik?
Specifically, for the same model/warranty/support does the branded typically cost the dealer less or more than the unbranded?
No Hik hatred here or pro-USA rhetoric, just wonder why some are so overly supportive of Hik. I can only guess that it's all about the benjamins ($$) for some.
As an end user I still buy a Hik here and there, but only when a better manufacture (reliable and cyber / ownership drama-free) doesn't sell what I need.
I owe it to the people I protect to not add risk to the environment, cyber or otherwise. I can't imagine buying 1,000 Hik cameras knowing what I know. I can't imagine selling them, but some people are ethically comfortable with it.
Before Hikvision there was someone else. And someday there will be another someone else... "Here today, gone tomorrow."
Get rich on their shoulders while it lasts, but I'm not going to help you get there.
If you are of the belief that Hikvision's partial government ownership structure is intentionally built for cyber attack purposes, then I dont blame you for feeling that way, I would too. Matter of fact, I cant understand why you would even buy a camera here and there.
I personally think that train of thought is hogwash.
belief that Hikvision's partial government ownership structure is intentionally built for cyber attack purposes
It's possible that someone believes specifically that but I don't think that's the real concern.
Did the Chinese government build Hikvision as a cyber attack vehicle? No. All evidence shows they created Hikvision as one of many government research corporations.
The real concern is simpler. The Chinese government runs entities for the benefit of the Chinese government. This is not meant as a criticism. It's just different from the US government / business system, which is far more fractured (for better and worse).
If the China Communist Party wants to use Hikvision or any other of their entities for greater purposes, they will use it, end of sentence. And before you respond with CIA etc., the difference is that US companies can protest publicly and object while if a Chinese company did that, they'd be facing jail or worse.
So I think it's totally reasonable that the Chinese government, given how it operates, would use the assets it controls as they see fit.
If the China Communist Party wants to use Hikvision or any other of their entities for greater purposes, they will use it, end of sentence. And before you respond with CIA etc., the difference is that US companies can protest publicly and object while if a Chinese company did that, they'd be facing jail or worse.
Spot on John. In the event hostilities ever broke out, those cameras would used just like any other weopon in their arsenal.
And While Sean, & Jon & Marty all may feel that's "hogwash", it really only speaks to their naivete regarding the first rule of war
This argument is so old and tired, it hardly dignifies a response, but I will this one last time.
How, exactly, will Big Red (aka China gov) "activate" these evil bot cams on a non-internet connected network and what specific damages can they inflict?
I don't have an answer for the people who install them on internet facing networks. That is plausible if they aren't quarantined, but still unlikely IMO. But I would blame the installer as much as Hik.
I made this point previously, that installers are the greatest threat to any secure installation, that the focus seems to have moved away from. The retention of passwords, removal of firewalls, random port forwarding, keeping iPhone App logins to view client cameras, application of loose passwords, poor TEMPEST installation and the list goes on. The fact is that any internet connectivity is going to leave you wide open for a concerted attack - just ask Vevo, Experian etc.
The point I have been making for months Jon - the installer is the greatest threat in regards to cyber security. I don't believe IPVM have issues an article on TEMPEST - perhaps they should?
How engineers are vetted, monitored and trained is of paramount importance along with the frequent shoddy installation techniques and password retention frequently seen. Like most aspects of the debate, facts that detract from the "hate Hik" campaign - will rarely be touched upon, whilst any snippet of irrelevance becomes another thread of poorly assembled argument.
Tim, interesting comments in light of the Hikvision Backdoor Exploit, what do you have to say about that? Is that the installer's fault?
Yes John, it would be the installers fault if they left a device open to the internet. They would be at fault if they didn't properly isolate such devices from the internet or other possible public facing networks. Keep all simple network devices isolated for this exact type of exploit. No brand is immune. Some are simply too small of a market share to be a target, and/or aren't a target due to their corporate ownership being less offensive to those who target specific brands for exploits.
No brand is immune.
What other brands, outside Hikvision, have magic string backdoors that can be exploited by copying and pasting?
Some are simply too small of a market share to be a target, and/or aren't a target due to their corporate ownership being less offensive to those who target specific brands for exploits.
Jon - are you stating or implying that the majority of security devices from other companies have similar sloppy backdoors in their code, and they have just not been discovered yet?
I will start by saying that many Chinese products have been proven to have very flawed software and firmware. That includes Hikvision, Dahua, and many others.
It is also my belief that most other (if not all) brands have potential for an exploit. Whether or not it is equivalent to this particular backdoor is not likely. But since we have seen market leaders like Axis having exploits found, one could assume with enough time and effort, you could find an exploit in any brand.
Again, keep ALL DEVICES off public facing networks unless absolutely required.
All that said, I would look at shoddy routers as a much easier target vector, since by design, they have a leg outside a firewall. This issue dwarfs any security camera exploit.
But since we have seen market leaders like Axis having exploits found, one could assume with enough time and effort, you could find an exploit in any brand.
Jon, you do understand that the Axis vulnerabilities have been significantly more complex, with limited exploit potential when compared to the Hikvision vulnerabilities?
It is also my belief that most other (if not all) brands have potential for an exploit.
Yes, anything has the 'potential' for exploit, much as any lottery ticket buyer has the 'potential' to become a millionaire. However simply having 'potential' does not make it reality.
Hikvision has proven to have a MUCH higher potential for exploit than Axis, for example. That they have both had vulnerabilities reported does not make them equal in regard to cyber security.
My point is it doesn't matter. I don't care about how easy it is to exploit something. I assume that every device is expoitable given access and time.
I simply choose to deny access as a means of preventing exploits. Much easier. I sleep well.
I simply choose to deny access as a means of preventing exploits. Much easier. I sleep well.
So none of your customers have remote access to their video surveillance systems?
They have cloud access to their DW Spectrum server. We have asked that 2FA be added to secure their cloud access further, but other than that, the cameras are not remote accessible by the client. We have access using 2FA based remote desktop apps if we need remote access to the cameras themselves.
I don't believe IPVM have issues an article on TEMPEST - perhaps they should?
I would love to report on TEMPEST, it has been somewhat of a personal interest of mine for ~30 years. I first heard about the concept in the early 80's, and could sort-of discern what my PCjr. was doing from holding an FM radio nearby.
The problem is that, I have not heard of any first-hand instances of TEMPEST-style exploits in the security industry. I am sure there are some in NSA/CIA-level spy games, but not in terms of everyday equipment or systems.
If you have some specific examples of TEMPEST methods being used to hack, intercept, alter, or otherwise compromise security hardware please share here (or email to me) and I will investigate for a report.
I would love to Brian, but the UK Official Secrets Acts means more to me than a gendered confused traitor. I will say that I received training at GCHQ and then applied the principles to secure communications systems within NATO communications installations.
There are absolute basics - mains filtering is in nearly always overlooked and the very basic EMF fundamentals are never considered.
Your hunch in regards to NSA/CIA/GCHQ is likely to be correct but that can only serve to give us all a warm feeling?
What the TEMPEST threat did (and still does), is to focus the mind away from the equipment being installed to the methods its installed with and associated threats that may have been overlooked. This is where I see the failing in the majority of CCTV installations. the focus has moved from good practice as the overall skill set and wider understanding of real threats becomes increasingly diminished.
TEMPEST was and still is a huge eye opener for me and all those I trained with. I would love to see the Black/Green/Red separation on secure installations - but I can only do my bit to implement the fundamentals on current designs, so all is not lost!
How TEMPEST is deployed within the outside world to gather information - is a whole different ball game and pretty damn interesting at that!
Just one very quick thought - how many installers use ethernet over mains extenders??? Oh dear me.....the data hasn't even got to the router/firewall and yet its all out there for those who want it.
you are dreaming
the whole point is there is no barriers to market
we have one ex customer who sales online hikvision
says his turnover over 1/2 a million with hik
works from home and his garage is his stock room
tim aka king canute your trying to hold back the tide
best of luck
why would i do that
its great news for me
he is sucking all profit out of selling hik
i love him may his glorious work continue
he is driving us plenty of customers who cant make profit out of hik
im thinking of sending him a hamper for xmas for his fantastic work
in fact we have 3 mid tier integrators taking samples from us this week
and too really cheer up the uk channel
lorex are releasing 4k ip camera kits in maplins in 2 weeks
at 599 including vat
how does this help the installer
(lorex normally oem dahua)
Not in the least bit bothered Mick. A Maplin customer isn't a customer of ours - never has been and never will be. Likewise, an integrator isn't going to drop a partners advanced replacement, marketing, training and tech support for a trinket on a shiny shelf being sold by idiots.
We have have a market segment and Hikvision fits very nicely into it. This can include prisons, hospitals, museums, libraries and similar. I doubt the Lorex will do ANPR anytime soon - which is something we provide at no extra cost on all our systems that require one. They wont do video decoders (IP to HDMI) that Hik do, or HDMI to IP like Hik do (for live monitor recording).
Your perspective is as a manufacturer/distributor losing market share and margins to Hikvision - my perspective is as an integrator seeking a product that will deliver the solution at the best price.
Mick, one thing we have all learned from electioneering in the US and the UK is that running a negative campaign gets you no-where. You will not increase your business or profits by simply knocking the competition. Concentrate on your own products strengths, sell to them and get on with life.
if you stop the obsession of people using a mobile phone to view cameras your in with a chance
we are seeing customers here having old dahua units being hacked
had 6 today
If hostilities ever broke out the Chinese military would have excellent intelligence on my driveway and front yard.
The Chinese viewing your cameras remotely is not the issue. Using hundreds of thousands of Hikvision cameras to attack banking, critical infrastructure and other computer systems is the very real problem.
I guess I don't disagree with you that that's possible but its a long shot tinfoil hat way of thinking. Its also possible they could bomb us with a nuclear weapon, so should we go to war with them right now to neutralize the threat?
My thing is, if China really wanted to initiate cyber warfare upon us they could commission any manufacturer in China to do so, whether they are state owned or not. As you said, their is no Chinese manufacturer that will protest their own Government. And if they were bold enough to be in this position to do so, you know that this is highly possible to use all options in their arsenal.
So whether you support Hikvision or not, chances are, you own an IoT device that was manufactured in China. In other words, you have a war machine from the enemy in your possession, just waiting to deploy.
Basically if you think Hikvision, the company, was built for cyber warfare. I disagree with you but respect your position to not purchase Hikvision products as I can put myself in your shoes and understand how you feel.
However, If you dont think Hikvision as a company was built for cyber warfare for the Chinese Government, yet you think its "reasonable" that it can be used as a vehicle for Cyber Warfare, then why not completely boycott all Chinese made networkable devices completely? As you said, given how they operate, dont you think they could use these as vehicles for war as well? This is where i dont get ya.
IMO, that way of thinking is "possible", but definetely not "reasonable".
However, If you dont think Hikvision as a company was built for cyber warfare for the Chinese Government, yet you think its "reasonable" that it can be used as a vehicle for Cyber Warfare, then why not completely boycott all Chinese made networkable devices completely? As you said, given how they operate, dont you think they could use these as vehicles for war as well? This is where i dont get ya
I know they currently use any tool at their disposal for espionage purposes including cameras, phones and any other electronic device manufactured there. Read or watch the 60 Minutes Report on China Espionage or Read about their hack of the US Office of Personnel Management
Their cyber espionage had cost North America Billions in lost intellectual properties and tens of thousands of jobs
You have a pollyanna view of National Security and should educate yourself on what constitutes a "threat"
Not sure I understand where you are headed. If you feel strongly about this, are you boycotting anything made in China? Or is it only Hikvision because you just dont like them?
but its a long shot tinfoil hat way of thinking. Its also possible they could bomb us with a nuclear weapon
The Chinese government is a leading cyberwarfare actor. In fact, now. China has never nuclear attacked anyone but they have a track record in cyber.
they could commission any manufacturer in China to do so, whether they are state owned or not
Hikvision clearly is the most attractive for the Chinese government to use, since they own and control Hikvision directly and Hikvision is the largest with the most deployments (by contrast, e.g., Longse is far less attractive).
chances are, you own an IoT device that was manufactured in China.
There's lot of devices not made in China. Axis and Avigilon, for example. And buyers who care about cybersecurity (again not your homeowner or SMB) will not simply throw their hands up and say "I guess the Chinese government will get us regardless, let's just buy whatever they sell us cheapest."
Here is what I think you think:
in essence you say: Its reasonable that Hikvision can be used as a cyber warfare vehicle. Its irresponsible to buy Hikvision since you are buying a possible war vehicle.
It appears the notion I get from you is: Its perfectly fine buying other Chinese made networkable products since their is no real threat there. They really cant be used as war vehicle. Just dont buy Hikvision surveillance products.
Seems odd.
*** Edited from original post
I think we have all learned enough about Chinese video surveillance manufacturer's software development and cybersecurity practices to confidently state that they lag significantly in skill and maturity to Western leaders. And if your retort is 'but Axis has issues too!' then you are simply showing you don't understand the difference in severity of issues across companies.
Do I think buyers who care about cybersecurity should use Dahua, Longse, XM, etc.? Definitely not.
Hikvision has numerous serious cyber security problem, and in addition, is owned by the Chinese government, who has its own track record, etc., etc.
So I am not recommending other Chinese video surveillance manufacturers for cybersecurity, I am simply pointing out that Hikvision has an additional risk element on the political side.
Just trying to still understand. What are your thoughts on these questions:
#1) Is it irresponbile to buy Hikvision products?
#2) Is it irresponsible to buy other Chinese made Surveillance products?
#3)Is it irresponsible to buy any IoT device made in china, regardless if its surveillance or not?
#4) If come to find out a Hikvision camera is more secure than a Axis camera, would that sway your decision?
I also disagree that Hikvision/Dahua is lagging significantly behind western manufacturers. I agree they lag in some areas, but hardly significantly.
Come on man =)!! This isnt about everything with a "Made in China" label on it. This is about products that sit on your network, the backbone of most businesses, govt, and any institution, that have gaping holes in security, and are OWNED and were CREATED by a foreign Government. Any reasonable person would be fine with a plastic horsy for your 2 year old, a laptop stand, or a set of speakers for car, that was made in China. But an IoT device on your network, that can see and possibly hear your personal and confidential business, that has known vulnerabilities and shoddy security in age of cyberwarfare has to make you concerned. This is why there is no Alexa in my home, or Siri on my phone. Would you deploy a Firewall to protect your network that was manufactured under the direct supervision of the Cuban, Iranian, or Venezuelan Govt? Our relations with China are obviously much different, but who knows whats right around the corner given the situation on North Korea (that has always had China and Russia Support).
By the way, isnt Arecont Russian owned?
No. The two founders and owners of Arecont Vision are both Russian-born engineers but both immigrated to the US and becamse US Citizens decades ago. The company itself is located in Los Angeles CA.
There is an extremely larger chance they would use their cameras and whatever else to attack us long before a nuclear strike. In fact the nuclear option is all but off the table. If China and the US were to get into a nuclear conflict the world as we know it would be over for well over a hundred years. This really is no tinfoil hat thing these are just facts. Everyday the Chinese government as well as many others are constantly attacking the US with strategic cyber attacks finding any vulnerability they can. Of course we do the same as well. There is also the theory out their one day China will just turn all the lights off with the flick of a switch with all the IOT devices out there.
This is a very strange viewpoint. The single greatest threat to the US in terms of hacking is, and has proven to be, from the US. If you really think the Security of the US is compromised by perceived vulnerabilities in $100 cameras - then you are deluded. The greatest threats to the Us are well known to you, and visited upon innocent citizens day in and day out - but not by the Chinese. Te US also engage in hacking - state sponsored at that - does that mean we shouldn't by Ford?
Absolute sensationalism and scaremongering so far removed from reality as to be farcical.
Hi John,
I agree with you completely. Especially
This is not meant as a criticism. It's just different from the US government / business system, which is far more fractured (for better and worse).
Look at Equifax, who fuked up huge and there is nothing we can do.
If Equifax were government owned, then they are obliged to protect citizens. But citizens are simply their products and even the media stopped covering it since it is too depressing.
John Oliver on this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPjgRKW_Jmk
Of course, government own is not the perfect thing in the world.
Stating that the Chinese government 'partially own' Hikvision is hogwash. If I remember correctly they have a controlling interest of 67%, correct me if I'm wrong John.
The Chinese government is the controlling shareholder of Hikvision:
The Chinese government owns 42% of the shares. More importantly, the Chinese government originated Hikvision. The 'shareholding' comment can confuse Westerners to think that somehow the government just passively bought some shares. It was the opposite, the Chinese government created Hikvision and then sold off a non-controlling portion to the 'public' on the tightly government controlled Shenzhen stock exchange.
Whoa, I knew there was ownership all along, but didnt know it was this deep.
AND how many other companies inside China does the state own shares?
Please explain that CHINA is not the USA and that many if not most companies have SOME government involvement so you are not presenting this comparison in the same manner. You are taking a western way of doing business, applying that to a differing culture and making claims that this is a horrible circumstance, it is not, it is more or less customary in China. Whether you agree, disagree or just have a chip on your shoulder for any reason you cannot apply our way of life to theirs. Go ahead I know all the haters will inject all the communist statements into a discussion, I dont give a hoot in hell either, there is one thing VERY few if any of you know and that is how those people that work at Hikvision LIKE IT, LIKE there country and RESPECT their employer a hell of alot more than many US workers.
AND how many other companies inside China does the state own shares?
In the video surveillance industry, Hikvision is the only company that the Chinese government created and has a controlling ownership in - Hikvision Chinese Government Origin And Control. That is the critical difference.
hik and dahua had little experience of IT
they grew from making dvr
you need to look at their history its not intentional its just they never had the experience in the past
And I would say in South Florida, Hikvision (or OEM hik) is dominating the new install market for multi family and light commercial.
We all know bringing up Hikvision is a very sore subject (lol). I think for multi-family and light commercial, Hikvision is great. Reliable, and cost effective, it serves a purpose for the consumer/building owner.
I think we can all agree to disagree and stop hashing out the same tired arguments and put downs. For enterprise or Government jobs, pick another brand.
I still buy a Hik here and there, but only when a better manufacture (reliable and cyber / ownership drama-free) doesn't sell what I need.
How many products does Hik make whose functionality/performance cannot be equaled by any of the standard bearers?
How many products does Hik make whose functionality/performance cannot be equaled by any of the standard bearers?
Thanks for asking and likely not many. We all know that Hik has a large catalog of choices and very competitive prices. On the surface they are a good choice for the uninformed, but I take the position there are better choices for enterprise level buyers.
The only Hikvision's I have bought are a high-end PTZ that offers very long range IR and are PoE+ powered. To keep things very compatible with my VMS (OnSSI) and my large camera collection manageable, I now 99% only use Hanwha but they don't make a PoE powered PTZ with the specs I need.
It's my perception that some people here are protecting their incomes that have grown thanks to Hikvision. My income isn't tied to any particular camera choice, unless I select the wrong ones :)
At the same price...you forgot that bit.
Actually no, as EU#2 was saying that they only bought Hik when a "better manufacture (reliable..." could not provide what they needed.
It is assumed that the "better" manufacturer would cost more.
The statement "I dont really see Hikvision competing with anyone" is EXACTLY why I appreciate IPVM and its truly unbiased, uncompensated coverage. If you called Sean as an End User looking for quality advice, you would get exactly a biased and compensated opinion. Biased in that he most likely wouldn't mention any of the concerning topics mentioned here, and compensated in that he is a HIK OEM. This isnt a knock on Sean or his company at all. Please dont interpret it this way. They found a product line with a level of quality that meets or exceeds his customers expectations, and he is also making a good living from it. Cant blame him at all or his completely reasonable responses and opinions.
However, if we didnt have platforms like IPVM raising also completely reasonable concerns, in the age of covert cyber warfare, we would be ripe for the taking. The only way I would see Hik being above the competition is if they won the projects without any price advantage. Of course you'll win if your giving your products away. Is there any proof that Hik has become as an industry leader due to pure, technological innovation? Have they engineered a product or process that is mechanically or technically superior to its competitors? This is a genuine question and not sarcasm.
Hikvision, with or without Chinese Govt direction, has succeeded in recruiting a small of army of loyal and hungry American entrepreneurs to push their products into the most sensitive areas our of lives and country.
Does "Keep your friends close, and your enemies closer" apply here? I would imagine Video feeds inside our homes, businesses, and govt institutions is about as close as you can get.
What better way to prepare for a potential 'cyber war' then getting your biggest enemy to buy tonnes of your CCTV products in which you put very little R&D when it comes to cyber security...you don't need an over active imagination to look at what potentially could happen. Sure the fact that it is a potential money spinner is a great help although even that side of the story is shaky with the mounting debt of the Chinese. Make your money while you can, it won't last forever!
What exactly are they so far ahead on? I am assuming this is what is meant: market share of SMB/residential/DIY, low cost, and what else? Everything else is a me too product or extremely niche.
I don't believe they are so far ahead in regards to what products they have out now. Many are me too products. However, where I believe they are ahead is that they make a solid performing product with a low amount of failure. I have had more failures with Dahua compared to Hikvision. Hikvision doesn't fit every application and for most unique situations, we look to products from Hanwah and Axis for example.
I realize that Hikvision is working on analytics just like Dahua is an incorporating smart features within the cameras.
What they need to work on is cyber security and software. The difference between most products when the specs are almost equal is software. Hikvision's software isn't the worst but if they want to compete with Avigilon or other companies, their software and features need to be just as refined. At least Hikvision has a better handle on firmware when compared to Dahua.
On another note, I just installed some Reolink on a production machine for remote troubleshooting. The equipment is from Italy with US support. They provided us with the Reolink cameras from Amazon. They came in with DHCP as default and they connected right away to the software. I was able to program and setup the cameras all from the software without going into a web page. I was pretty impressed. Within a few hours, the company was able to track the issue with the machine, apologize for the ongoing issue, and send the video and additional information to Italy.
The company said they have used these cameras in many locations. They said they met with the manufacturer in China and asked them to make some tweaks to the software to better meet the manufacturer's needs. I'm not sure what the tweaks were. The cameras seemed really solid for cheap they were. I probably won't be installing them anytime soon because they don't make back boxes for them. I ended up using 4 square boxes and fasteners. I can say I probably haven't seen a camera manufacturer run a Back To School sale on their website.
We actually have a test of Reolink here. Given their pricing and honestly surpringly decent performance, I would expect them to gain some traction in direct sales. They're probably going to have to rethink that strategy for integrators, though.
Yes, I recall reading that test. I was just surprised that a manufacturer that is used to designing automated custom equipment using expensive and reliable hardware was using such cheap cameras. This is probably because their support labor rate is so high. In this case, it did solve the issue. I didn't test the playback capabilities for myself though. Perhaps when I am on site next I will see how playback is.
This almost made me spit out my hard cider all over. Thanks for the laugh!
I think you have lost touch with reality
hikvision want it all
they throwing you under the bus someday soon
in the uk they released hi watch
to squeeze their oem dahua and all
the price on line is way below hik traditional trade prices
these will cause chaos world wide
it's fine for those customers who fit aviglon or axis everyday but this is going to hit 50 percent of the installer sales
uk installers hAve maintenance agreements with customers how they justify a 1000 pound maintenance agreement on a 20 pound camera
please check out in uk
jm secure
cctv kits
or type in hi watch
this forces the installer to promote 5 mp
and 4 k
what about customers who just want their cctv maintained and are happy with
2 mp
hik Are they so arrogant they think
all their customers follow them like sheep
In my region HIK is always competing with Dahua .... They really push hard since the market share between HIK and Dahua is like 60:40
here is screenshot from HIK presentation .... it is like this for couple of years already
Hikvision is on a purchase ban here. So ya, they are so far ahead as no other manufacturer has managed that feat!
I doubt they will loose too much sleep over it. There's plenty of kit out there that each integrator won't sell - but not one supplier in the least but concerned about it. There isn't a pattern as such, just a preference.
The skill is making the call on anecdote and not hearsay.
I love this discussion, simply fun, sort of like facebook though, just a bunch of opinions, some based upon facts and some - not so much. So I will add my opinion.
For fun let's stop calling this manufacturer "Hikvision" - let's just call it what it is - the "Chinese Government".
For example if Ford started a car manufacturer called "Dorf", taking profit from former Ford sales, setting in place on their board former or even current Ford executives and sharing resources between Ford and "Dorf", well Dorf is really Ford, no?
OK...
Now, do we think the Chinese Government has a secret plan to sell us IoT devices that they can control at some point in the future that can harm us, I don't think so. My opinion.
Do they manufacture a great deal of low quality products (sometimes with stolen technology) that others within the Chinese Government or anywhere else can violate and used to harm others, well- Yes IMO.
Do we think the Chinese Government wants to dominate a market (like any other business, generally speaking, that operates in a free or quasi free market)?
But the Chinese Government doesn't operate in a free market, you had the communist party of China run by Mao Zedong and then the People's Republic of China in 1949. If you don't know the history, then spend a moment on your computer/internet, and yes I am not an expert either.
Some would argue that China isn't this way now - they allow capitalism, but my opinion - that is BS, government controls everything. Case in point Hikvision.
Quick note - where did the money and arms come from during the Korean War? Who continues to do a ton of business with North Korea now despite U.N. Resolutions etc.? Who controls the media and internet access in the majority of China? Why do Monks continue to set themselves on Fire in protest of Chinese Government?
So who do you want to do business with? What company do you want to help do well, increase their profits and grow? What company do you choose to represent you/your company? At what cost?
The world is full of choices. You can either buy or avoid Hik - likewise the customer can either buy from you or someone else. I doubt for one second that anyone will stop buying Hikvision because China has supplied N Korea, as indeed I would doubt anyone will stop buying iPhones because the US funded the Taliban.
All the talk about Chinese wanting to dominate the market - isn't this called ambition? Don't we all want our companies to dominate the market segment? Doesn't ford want to dominate cat sales in the same way as Apple dominates phone sales?
People can whine as much as they want about China - but hey, get over it. They are not about to disappear because you don't like them. Using your Fortune 500 material, it can be seen that Chinese investment in the US is growing at an exponential rate and they pretty well have a say in how you live your life going forward in one way or another. It kind of puts into context a corner-shop boycotting Hikvision to join a bandwagon...
Using your Fortune 500 material, it can be seen that Chinese investment in the US is growing at an exponential rate
In fact, 2016 was an abberation in terms of China foreign investment. That image mentions HNA, who now in 2017 has hit challenges:
At least two of HNA Group’s overseas deals have hit a hurdle as the Chinese conglomerate struggles to take money out of China, said four people familiar with the process, amid a widening crackdown by Beijing on debt-fueled corporate acquisitions.
The image also mentions Dalian. Now in 2017, China’s Wanda Signals Retreat in Debt-Fueled Acquisition Binge.
Of course, the latest, last week, the US government blocked Chinese company from $1.3 billion acquisition of US semiconductor company.
Consider those facts.
Thanks John, can we look for a re-emergence of the US manufacturer then, that will redress the trade imbalance? Talking of which - a wider perspective of just basic trade shows that the US import's 4x more than you export to China - as has been the case for a number of years. According to your own Government stats - (https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html) I don't see that trend changing.
It only takes a moment to see how much money the US (any most other countries) subsidize their domestic manufacturing. Whether it's USD80billion of direct assistance under the Automotive Industry Financing Program, or USD6billion state funded credit line for Hikvision - it all pretty much amounts to the same thing - state funding.
So where are you going to draw the line? Stop buying Hik, stop buying Chinese, stop buying far eastern, stop buying non-US? What do you do with the many US corporate who choose to manufacture in China and abroad? How do you stop the Chinese investment in the US? I think we all know the answers to those questions - and the fact is that Hikvision are going to be with us for a long time to come.
Tim, the argument here isnt the "Made in China" aspect. Its the fact that these are IoT devices with shoddy security and vulnerabilities. These are controllable if not properly secured/installed, and can be used as a tool of sabotage. The Chinese govts control and involvement in HikVision is vastly different than the access subsidies will give to Washington over Automobile. If the time comes (which this isnt far fetched), that our government can push code to the millions of automobiles computer systems that enables them to bring down IT infrastructure, or at the very least, record video and audio within the vehicle and send that data back to US Server Farms, I would imagine people would have the same concern. Please dont lose focus of WHAT is being sold and forget about WHERE its coming from. Unintelligent goods and commidities cannot threaten our daily lives. Network connected possible tools of warfare can bring our everything we know to a grinding halt if abused or used against us.
if they are so far ahead
why have they launched hi watch
today they are telling hi watch online resellers they can only have hi watch if they remove all other brands from their web site
they are also releasing hi look more mid tier products to be sold online
maybe copying their model in china where hik sell direct too consumers through alibaba
want need you guys much longer good for consumers as it cuts you lot out of the channel making a margin
forgetting the issues of hik being owned by the chinese gov
forget its vunerable to cyber attacks
can you trust them
hi watch online sales
hi look on line sales
where does it leave the wholeseller
installer who have bust their arse making hik a brand
Mick - if you don't think they are far ahead - that's fine. I'm surprised everyone has so much time to criticize a company that "isn't that far ahead". HiWatch - another revenue stream, but targeted at a less demanding audience. If you don't want to buy it - don't buy it, no-one is forcing any seller to do anything are they?
People are far too precious about CCTV. Get used to the fact that it now a commodity product. In the past it was sold as something so special that enabled manufacturers in the West to sell at inflated prices hiding the reality that much of the kit really wasn't all that good after-all. Times move on - but seemingly, some manufacturers don't.
Of course we don't sell hikvision
not in the last ten years
we don't TRUST them
In someways where in a very strong posistion to capitalise on hiks mistakes
alienating themselfs with their customer base is good news for us
we still sell 20m cctv in uk which puts as above dahua sales here
hik keep shooting themselfs in the foot and we are loving it
Yes hikvision
Jason asked us to distribute their products last week
havent stopped laughing
Interesting that the OEM is less price than the manufacturer - however, at this point we are talking pennies. HikVision has lowered its prices so much on its devices already - I can save a couple dollars on a camera and go to an OEM model? Whats the point?
Why are hikvsions sales declining in uk
Sean do you think their products are that great or they lack a credible alternative
dahua is more competitive In analogue
lacks in my opinion true corporate presence in mid to high to high end
and analogue can easily be attacked
volume is high In analogue so hik introduced very competitive hi watch
turbo is now very cheap here online
huawei is competing well with hikvision must be an intresting threat to hik as they own hisilicon the main processor used in ip
cameras nvr and dvr
xm. Keen pricing too
entry
longsee cantontek too entry
uniview back under Chinese ownership
ip only lack of analogue is aproblem
in the west
tvt has a chance will need time more credible alternative to hik than dahua
as trying to limit the supply so customers
Can make money
other than that jump into big bucks on western suppliers
hiks biggest weakness margins are collapsing
Good question Mick. I do think their products are great and honestly, they do make the best product for the home and small business market. GUI's and software are the best for this type of pricing tier. Regardless if you think they are destroying the market or not, I do think they have the best product out there that appeals to this market segment.
Dahua is in second place but had too many RMA issues with them in the past, decided to move on. Too many wierd bugs. Disorganization issues and such. Could be a great company but need to have more focus.
XM has phenomenal pricing but their GUI and software is a nightmare. I cant bring myself to fully promote this product.
Uniview is promising but I feel they need more sales staff in the USA to make a really big push.
Longse could have a real shot if they invested in more time in their software and GUI. Currently, it is also a nightmare.
i cant bring myself to buy longse its below the bottom of the barrel
unv only ip really cause issue for customers as many are happy with high definition analogue
xm we use for entry 4 and 8 chn for the price conscious install
need this to compete with hiks new and agressively priced hiwatch which is very cheap
dahua as a brand lacks credability nothing innovative just a hik me too
and its flakey
they dumping 4k kits through lorex into retail here
i did here that hik sold 20k 4k kits into retial in the usa through one of its partners
owl or swann
hik dahua dont care about the cyber back door when they use the back door to dump products against the channel
owl first order for 5mp was 200k
their continued support in to costco in the usa ultimately hurts the traditional channel
but their under pressure to maintain sales
give me 18 months i will give you a product you can sell
Sounds Good. By the way, we got started with Qvis back in the day! We owe alot of our success to those folks in the Austin,Texas Branch. They actually referred alot of their customers to us when they exited the USA which Im still grateful for. We still have some of those customers today.
Are you entering mid tier to enterprise market here in the USA? Thats going to be tough in my opinion. Good luck though.
yes i remember
we sold dahua and xm back then it has improved since then
maybe we should send you a sample of our new nvr for you to make a comparison against hik
For myself, Security Field including is require a REAL professional to design and build for end-user. In Hong Kong, our government do not much to set the standard of the CCTV requirement. That's why Hikivision can get there market sharing by CHEAP PRICE.
It's refreshing to here somebody making sense
the sheep who want the low hanging fruit
will realise when they have stopped digging their hikvision grave their penniless
so keep us the good work finding alternatives that give you margin
maybe others need to register as a charity as a none profit organisation
out of intrest hik and dahua sales in uk have dropped
increasing pressure on an already marginless unstable channel
a few firmware upgrades and a few return site vista will push many installers into the abyss and bankruptcy
Thank you for your sharing, but I always believe no matter of what type of customer is. Security should always comes first and should put more money, coz security may save your life and act as precaution (proactive) system.
Don't get me wrong I need to make a lot of money from this business, what I try to bring up is this field should requirement higher standard of hardware and software in this industry.
Hi
To many posts to reply to each in particular.
The capitalist game is a very delicate. Manufacturers need a market. China has found one : The World. For them to sell the World must continue to exist. Simple...
In the meantime, they (China) are making sure they are flooding the World with products whose quality, performance and reliability is increasing at (for competitors) an alarming rate while the prices are decreasing at seemingly the same rate. The cyber threat is real but since most of what we are all using, is of Chineses provenance anyway, should Hikvision be the main concern? Every single piece of Internet machinery has some Chinese part or is wholly made in China in spite of its branding ... IMHO security begins with the installer ... A more serious threat is the Billions (?) of Wifi routers installed with absolutely no concern for security beyond the Wifi passphrase ...
Back to Hik, speaking from my experience: For our market and our applications, they just work. They provide what we need and at a price their western competition can not (yet?) match. Much has been said about the enterprise market but Hik + High End VMS ( we're using that combo) works very well. At that level too they are poised to dominate, make no mistake about it.
The most annoying issue for us, CCTV and security integrators, is one that all companies face at some point: that of seeing margins going down. These keep on dwindling. Our sector seems to be destined to be selling commodities. Selling cameras simply won't cut it. Our cost, operating, thus profit, structures were not designed for such low cost products with such high quality. A fact that annoys, scares and angers. We need to channel our energy on finding how to remain relevant and profitable. Not criticizing what is ineluctable:The availability of cheaper, better and more reliable products.
yes! Hik does dominate.
Not criticizing what is ineluctable:The availability of cheaper, better and more reliable products.
First, the 'better and more reliable' claim is ironic given the recent Hikvision Backdoor Exploit disclosure.
And we have had this discussion before, so I'll keep it brief, I don't think this 'cheap' trend is 'ineluctable' but rather the consequence of a debt-fueled bubble inside of China that will eventually pop.
intresting your opinion on hik
what is the key features that you see they have no one else does
our view is 4/8/16 chn their ok and struggle beyond that channel count
we are looking at entering the us with our mid tier range of dvr and some feed back and pricing would help us decide wether its of intrest or not
Hi Mick
Not sure I can answer that question. One thing we have experienced is the superb reliability of their NVR and DVR. They just work. 30 in the field and not a hitch , not once in spite of unreliable power. GUI is not the best , not the smoothness of the better VMS but COTS PC with VMS are not as reliable in our experience.
We are working on some Milestone NVR however and their feature set is impressive, The GUI in particular is superior. We don't know how they (Husky NVRs) integrate with Milestone higher End VMS, just yet. We have just started the lab tests. We do like however the Milestone NVR + Hik cameras combos. It is however not as inexpensive as Hik Cameras + Hik NVR.
thanks for your comments
our current product sits between hik and aviglon
32/64/128 chn and above
relatively low volume 40 pcs a month of our 2 and 4 rack mount models
and our intergrated 16/24 chn with in built poe around 80 per month
as we currently use intel its price point is higher than hik
and a lot less than aviglon
we currently have sites over 1000 cameras
we have sold over 1m cameras in the uk and 150000 dvr nvr
our volume is on imported dvr nvr from china
we manufacture our own camera
for lower cost hisilicon based dvr nvr we would need another 18 months to mature the product to be non chinese
You nailed it when you said this and you are very wise for acknowledging it. We are in a shifting market and one must survive and adapt. Hik is making inexpensive products that are very reliable. The upside is the consumer wins. The downside is the integrator makes less money on the product being sold so they must find a way to make money elsewhere in installation. I will agree with this and I think this is why alot of integrators get upset. I can understand the frustration, but unfortunately this is the world we are living in. Hik is a market disrupter, gotta find a way to remain relevant in the world they created. You cant continue to sell blockbuster rentals in a Netflix world and pray that it works.
We need to channel our energy on finding how to remain relevant and profitable.
This side of the pond, Sean - we are making more margin from Hik than any other product - the same as our distributor.
depends the channel you supply
over 50% of the uk market is 1080 p
we sell 1000 dvr a week and 5000 cameras a week
we try to protect dealer margins
its not what we are hearing from many customers here
we are getting a big number of customers looking for alternatives
i dont know how many dvr /nvr you purchase but im sure its not reflective of the uk in general
We are still making decent profits as well, although not as high as they used to be. The competition continues to get stiffer each day with the addition of more and more Hik distributors. I sometimes get annoyed at the mass volume of hik distributors, but that gets me nowhere. We just try to find ways to differentiate and stay relevant.
With that being said, one will not make as much off a Hik Camera than they would an Axis camera. And thats what I was referring to about market shifting and markets being disrupted. AKA: In other peoples words: The market getting destroyed
I am not agree the market is destroy by the low price product. Here in Hong Kong, we spend a lot of the on Marketing to present the important of the system to end-user, consultant, private company and government agents. When they know the difference between such as SONY, Hanhaw SAMSUNG and Axis with Chinese Band. About 80 - 90% will choose the large band instead of Chinese band.
I am still confident in this field, and sure security system do save life and protect the user.
I am young but I am in this field for near 20 years, from the previous experience from the biggest SI, sole distributor and now to system consultant. Sure, most of the product is Made is CHINA (P.R.C.) And, this is the fact most of the band locate their factory due to the cost.
Product made by CHINA is not the issue, the thing is such as HIKIVISION don't put too much effort of system security design. The product suppose to provide security, and its own is not secure. Sorry, in Hong Kong Hikivision never come to my option, and is not dominate here. Is the way how you preform to the end-user?
John
It is: Moore's Law has not yet reach its limit. The Bubble is one plausible explanation. Not the explanation.
Things in computer electronics are getting cheaper and more reliable...
A Cyber Exploit as a proof of non-reliability is not a strong argument. Reliability is not defined as not hackable. There doesn't seem to be such a thing. Given time and incentives many (most) things are hackable from Credit Bureau to government apparatus. We don't describe those as unreliable...
Reliability is not defined as not hackable. There doesn't seem to be such a thing.
Lol, there is a difference between great 'time and incentives' and Hikvision's magic string backdoor. That you see no difference is sad.
I won't debate you further about the 'ineluctable' trend since we did this previously, let's check back in a few years and see who is right.
They are so far ahead of everyone else
They're not ahead of Axis, not on quality and features, no way. On price maybe.
I don't really see Hikvision competing with anyone
In a free market, companies leap frog each other all the time in different ways. There are still numerous ways other camera manufacturers could respond to Hikvision, both inside China and outside China.
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