Help Me Choose A Camera System For My Home Please

Hi all - I’m looking for a 4-6 wired IP outdoor camera system for my house. I have cat6 wired at select locations and plan to have control4 installed, so need to integrate. I currently plan to go with these Hikvisions given low price and features like low light support, h.265 compression along with PTZ. I’d pair it with the 7608-i2 nvr.

http://www.hikvision.com/us/Products_1_10531_i38853.htm

My question is, I’ve been reading a lot about all the security/hacking issues with Hikvision. So should i reconsider the system, buy it but go with a vpn, go with these cameras but a different NVR, or different brand entirely. Appreciate any guidance. My dealer suggested Luma, though they seem overpriced to me.

Best,

Mike

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John Honovich

IPVM

#1, welcome!

Luma / SnapAV is an OEM / relabler, see here Looking For Information On Luma Surveillance. Unless you really like that dealer, his quality of service and he will only sell you that, not much reason to choose that.

In terms of other options, the lowest cost NVR would be the free Milestone VMS version (requires one's own PC) and the lowest cost non-Hikua option would be Hanwha (in particular their WiseNet Lite).

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Undisclosed End User #1

Thanks John, appreciate it. My control 4 dealer is fine installing non Luma equipment for me. I’ll check out the options you suggested, though I’d still need to purchase a switch to power them.

Are the Hikvision security issues with their NVR, cameras or both? Just trying to figure out whether using a different NVR solves my security concern, or if using a VPN is a good solution. Thanks!

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John Honovich

IPVM

Hikvision has general security issues. However, as for the NVR, the bigger thing is that their NVRs are not as strong relative to competitors as their cameras. For example, most people find Milestone and Exacq to be significantly more powerful / feature rich.

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Michael Miller

I would look at Hanwha cameras with Hanwha WAVE for your VMS. Much more user friendly then Hikvision.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Hanwha WAVE for your VMS

Note: Hanwha Wave licenses run in the ~$70 range, so for 6 cameras that's going to be ~$400 in licensing. That's why I first suggested Milestone's free 8 camera version. For a home system, the ~$400 VMS license cost could be an issue.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

I must admit I got suckered into a Luma (3 pack) because I didn't do my homework. And I can also tell you from experience that it works mostly ok. I have a separate garage/workshop about 110ft from the hub and it was always losing connection. I had to move the workshop node in to my garage which is only 75ft away but at least now it stays on. I haven't really messed with it other than to change locations and while I can get wifi out beyond my property (roughly 126ft), for some reason the Luma node in the workshop would not stay connected. I bought it originally because I wanted to connect a couple of things to my network and thought this would be an easy way of doing it throughout my home. Like I said, it works ok. This is only a WiFi hub, nothing more. Maybe I am talking about something else??

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

Nevermind... I see we are talking two different things.

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Undisclosed End User #1

Thanks guys, any recommended alternate models that are similar to the Hikvision cited above? (DS-2CD2135FWD-I-2.8mm)

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John Honovich

IPVM

Here are (12) 3MP to 5MP Hanwha outdoor IP domes. For low cost cameras, the most common options, outside of Hikvision are Dahua, Dahua or Hikvision OEMs, Hanwha or Geovision, based on our automated camera comparisons.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

I would stick with your original choice of Hikvision.

If you read IPVM enough, you will find articles on other manufacturers that have gotten hacked or were exposed to vulnerabilities as well. Axis, Vivotek, Dahua, Uniview, even Hanwha just to name a few. Hikvision simply gets the lion share of attention. Hikvision has patched up their vulnerabilities and have cleared a great path going forward to be strong in cyber security.

Hikvision or a good reliable Hik OEM is the way to go.

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John Honovich

IPVM

a good reliable Hik OEM is the way to go

Gee, I wonder where he could find that Sean? Nice self-promotion to end it.

Good use of the 'everybody has vulnerabilities' excuse!

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

Thank you for the double compliment John!

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Michael Miller

Hikvision's software is clunky and just a PITA to use. I never heard any customers say they like it in any way. Hanwha's new VMS is way better and they have cameras in the same price range as Hikvision's or your OEMs.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

I'm sorry but VMS is a terrible option for most end users and small businesses and in my opinion an "Old Hat" way of thinking for guys who grew up loving PC software. Only time I would consider VMS is for a large enterprise job. Not only is it more costly when you add in the computer and licensing costs to run the darn thing, its usually alot more convoluted when it comes to setup and use. I have no prejudice against software, its just that a guy with a small 4-6 channel system isnt going to want to buy a darn computer just to run a surveillance system, not only that, he doesnt want to buy a darn license for every camera he has to put on the software.

most end users want a simple setup. They want a box to plug cameras in and they want to view it on their phone with some cool extra features that they can tinker with. I've found that most end users view their system one of 2 ways:
#1) Phone
#2) HDMI GUI

For the guys who want to view it on their PC every now and then, IVMS4200 is way more than enough.

If you are a user that is a hard core PC software viewing guy and you want to view it several hours a day, then perhaps a VMS is a better option. Most end users are not that though.

Its amazing that most IoT things nowadays rarely utilize a PC in their setup or during daily use. This is what consumers have come to expect.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Only time I would consider VMS is for a large enterprise job

And by that Sean means 8 cameras or more...

I actually do agree with the general point that small system users generally will prefer using their phone. Two things, though:

At a certain level, 8, 16, 24 cameras, etc., the area is large enough that someone is responsible for monitoring it on a computer and then conventional VMS client is important.

Hik-Connect has had a lot of problems and a lot of even loyal dealers complaining, so not sure that's a plus for Hikvision.

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Michael Miller

Well since Wave can run on a Dual Core ARM running Linux the cost with the licenses is not much of a factor for a significantly better user experience then Hikvision. WAVE has a very easy to use mobile app which doesn't require port forwarding which makes it super easy to setup remote access for anyone using the system.

For customers that don't use their systems often having a super easy to use interface is very important unless you want to call your Hik dealer everytime you need to export a clip. We get calls all the time from people with Hikvision or Hikivsion OEMs asking how to export video. Most people just get so frustrated they pull out there cell phone and record their screen.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

I'm sure Hanwha is a fine VMS but VMS is simply not a good option for an end user DIY'er. It will be a nightmare to setup and use. but he can save alot of money and headache by just going with a POE NVR, Hikvision or any other brand for that matter.

Did you not show your customers how to export the video from the Hikvision system that you installed for them?

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Michael Miller

Sean, it's clear you have haven't tried Hanwha's VMS yet. Remote access is way easier then Hikvision. No port forwarding and no need to remember IP addresses or URLs to access the system from Windows, Mac, Linux, Andriod or Apple. It's perfect for homeowners and small businesses.

We only have a handful of customers which we sold Hikvision to as we stopped using them soon as we found out about the government ownership.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

You arent considering the perspective of a DIY'er, you are only considering your own perspective as a professional installer and your preference of using a VMS. Like i said im sure hanwha has a fine VMS, i have no idea. but im not doubting if its good or not.

What I am saying is recommending VMS'es to DIY'ers is a terrible idea.

As far as remote setup goes, you havent used Hikvision in a while so you dont know how easy it is. You scan a barcode. Port Forwarding was so 2015

Example Hikvision Scenario:
-Plug In NVR
-Plug in Cameras to Back of NVR, Video Pops Up
-Get phone out, install Hik Connect app
-Scan Barcode on NVR
-Done

Example VMS Scenario:
-Buy Computer
-Install Software
-Buy Licenses
-Plug in camera to back of computer NVR (Oh crap, i cant plug my -cameras into the back of my computer NVR?
-Buy Network switch
-Plug cameras into network switch (Why arents my cameras pulling up on my computer NVR?)
- Jack with trying to figure out how to set IP addresses
- Buy Motrin

Even if I was an installer, I would not be using a VMS setup for small systems. The whole setup is more costly and convuluted than a POE NVR. Your doing your customer a disfavor. If you like Hanwha, then why not consider some of their POE NVR's for this.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Example Hikvision Scenario:
-Plug In NVR
-Plug in Cameras to Back of NVR, Video Pops Up
-Get phone out, install Hik Connect app
-Scan Barcode on NVR
-Done

Many reviewers disagree:

And as we covered last month, many dealers have problems as well.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

Its iphone users, what do you expect? :)

Here is a better and much larger sampling from android:

Let me know if you find another surveillance app with a similar sampling of votes and rating

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Brian Karas

IPVM

Dig a little deeper, there are a significant number of 1 star reviews:

Many low-rated reviews note recent problems or degradations introduced from updates:

Many of the recent 5 star reviews are vague at best:

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

In reply to Brian Karas

Facebook has one star reviews too. You cant please everyone my friend.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Sean, your sophistry is starting the year strong!

The question is whether or not the issues are real.

You claim:

But prominent Hikvision dealers claim otherwise, e.g.:

and

Clearly, it's far more than the dismissive any product get a bad review excuse.

So let me suggest a stronger response for you, Sean. Amongst your customers, how common are problems with the Hik Connect app?

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

Thank you John for the new vocabulary word. Not only do I get to learn about security stuff when I come here, I also get edja ma cated on new words.

Unfortunately your quest on trying to find everything wrong with Hikvision has now become boring and predictable. What started off with subtle hints of dislike, quickly transformed into obvious laughable disdain. Unfortunately, its now past the entertaining funny stage and is becoming a gigantic snoozefest.

You and Brian's response here is a prime example. Anything negative out of a sea of positive, you will find.

If you look at the previous Hik Connect article, you will see that I myself complained about the dumb "port forwarding" pop up as well. It was rather annoying I must say. Luckily Hikvision listened to their customers, because they came out with an update that removed that. Regardless of what you think about the Govt Ownership, Hikvision did not become #1 by not listening to their customers. If it was a crappy product, they would have very few return customers.

As far as our customers having problems, I wont lie, we definetely have customers that have issues. Not to sound arrogant, but most are user error. Admittedly, occassionally, we do have a funky issue that is hardware or software related though and that is dealt with accordingly by repair or replacement. And yes, we do have an even smaller percentage of customers who simply do not like the product or software. But these types of issues are far from prominent and any manufacturer has a small percentage of defects and unhappy customers. If these issues were prominent, it would not be effective for us cost wise or reputation wise to deal with such a faulty or disliked product. We have moved on from another manufacturer for faulty issues before. Fortunately with Hikvision, its pretty rock solid and people love it.

As far as the App, Honestly its a pretty decent app. And whether you like it or not, Its really not hard to use at all. P2P setup is easy. You dont even need a dadgum computer to setup an IP camera with the app. If you would like me to send you a sample product with some basic instructs to show you, will be happy to do so. Are their things I would change on it? Absolutely! But overall its a pretty decent app.

Surveillance apps overall have very mixed ratings. They are very polarized. Its usually all the way positive or all the way negative. Im sure you can agree that once someone has their very first issue, even if its user error or an incorrect network configuration that is completely unrelated to the app, their frustration is at a all time high and the best way to vent this frustration is to stick to the app creator and leave a bad review. Given the complexities of surveillance equipment, this happens more often than not on surveillance apps. Feel free to look at other manufacturers apps and verify. Even the consumer grade Arlo app has a similar rating. I think given the high sampling rate of the android screenshot i provided and the 4 star rating that Hik Connect received, I'd say that Hik Connect is above par for the course.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

Hikvision simply gets the lion share of attention.

Sean, if you really analyze the coverage, you will see it is generally proportionate to the risks of the vulnerabilities. Hikvision receives significant attention on this topic because they have put users at the great risk of devices being hacked in one way or another, due both to their overall unit volume, and the criticality/ease of exploit of the vulnerabilities that they have shipped in their products.

Anyone who promotes "many manufacturers have suffered cyber security vulnerabilities" without also understanding the levity and risk of those vulnerabilities should not be offering advice on choosing secure products.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

In reply to Brian Karas

I think even the Hik Haters can agree that your coverage of Hikvision is absolutely 100% disproportionate. Hikvision receives the lion's share of attention because they always receive the most comments on their posts, your take on government ownership and its possible use as a cyber war vehicle, and your entertaining blog feud with Hikvision. It's entertaining, keeps current subscribers interested and brings in new subscribers, so I get why you continue to do it. You have to appeal to your current and potential subscribers. I hate to admit that I even get entertained by it every now and then.

But you promoting "Our Hikvision coverage is proportionate" is delusional, laughable, and makes it very difficult to take you serious.

Back to the OP: The fact still remains that there have been many other vulnerabilities discovered in other manufacturers products and probably will continue to be. To Bryan's credit on his statement, Hikvision is the largest and most popular manufacturer in the world so their are far more products out there than any of the others so they do get alot more attention when a vulnerability is discovered than the other's do. Admittedly, cyber security was probably not a major concern for many of these manufacturers in the past recent years, but I do think they are beginning to wake up and take this alot more serious. I know Hikvision has and they are continuing to head in the right direction as well.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

I am not a Hikvision hater per se, I just prefer not to purchase something from the Chinese government. It gives me the heebie jeebies.

And really, Hikvision isn't all that. I find it somewhat frustrating and I particularly do not like their VMS. But hey, that's just me... would I ever recommend Hikvision? Heck no! There are lots of other comparable products out there that are not owned by the government.

Am I a little bit paranoid? yeah... particularly coming from a computer science background. I'm just glad that our government wised up and stopped buying hikvision. Sorry Sean...

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John Honovich

IPVM

Sean, how many other manufacturers emailed admin passwords in plain text? How many auto-enabled UPnP NAT traversal? How many recommend port forwarding in a hardening guide?

Hikvision is unique in such a poor history of obviously avoidable problems.

You can wave your hands in the air and shout that we are laughable and doing this to get subscribers but you are literally following the Hikvision playbook of failing to respond to specific detailed criticism with facts, relying instead on ad hominem attacks and theatrics.

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Undisclosed End User #1

Really appreciate all the thoughtful responses. Any Hik OEMs in particular with good software, maybe Honeywell? I don’t plan on playing around with the software much, just want to be able to see the camera footage.

I also worry that Hik OEMs have the same vulnerabilities as Hik. The Chinese gov’t ownership is a bit unsettling to me personally, but maybe I’m just being overly paranoid.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Hik OEMs typically use Hikvision's software, not always but typically. And Hik OEMs almost certainly have the same vulnerabilities as Hik.

As an example, see UTC Interlogix, which uses different VMS client software (that is worse than Hikvision's) and older version of HIkvision IP camera firmware - quite a poor combination - Interlogix Vs Hikvision Tested.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

I also worry that Hik OEMs have the same vulnerabilities as Hik.

Based on our testing, OEMs can be expected to have the same vulnerabilities as Hikvision-branded cameras. To make it worse, OEMs do not always receive software updates and patches at the same time they are available for Hikvision-branded units, leaving them exposed much longer.

If you are concerned with cyber security, I would not recommend any Hikvision product at this time, but in particular, I would avoid OEMs.

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Undisclosed End User #1

Sean - Agreed, I just want to view on my phone and iPad. Thanks

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Michael Miller

Hik-Connect has had a lot of problems and a lot of even loyal dealers complaining, so not sure that's a plus for Hikvision.

As John stated above Hik has issues with there mobile phone and tablet apps. Hikvisions fix is to port forward your cameras which is counterproductive for cybersecurity.

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Undisclosed #3

Milestone's free version works pretty well, was easy to setup, and performs as expected. All without me ever reading a manual.

PC's are cheap, POE switches are cheap, decent IP cameras are now cheap (note I'm anti Hikvision for even more reasons than IPVM talks about.) I have a variety of cameras on my home system, and I like that I can make a change down the road with any of the separate components without starting over. This is why I refuse to focus on a single manufacturer solution, even for my home. Any one of my cameras could fail tomorrow, and I could pick a different manufacturer to replace it and be good to go if I choose.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

And so it begins... sigh.

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John Honovich

IPVM

#2, sometimes end users or home users are going to post questions. I know you objected the other day about the same issue. I'd encourage you not to respond to individual people's questions with such remarks as its impolite to the poster who is genuinely in need of avice.

You are certainly free to post your own discussion, e.g., "IPVM should not allow DIY users to ask questions", etc. and we can respond there and discuss the issue on its own dedicated topic.

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Undisclosed #6

IPVMU Certified

Think of it as an integrator controlled focus group of one.

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Undisclosed Integrator #5

I think UE1 should know that Sean owns a company that primarily resells/OEMS Hik.

I have no real experience with Hik, but we are pretty strong with Dahua.

For our office, we use a Dahua NVR with 3 cameras. That reminds me, I should upgrade the firmware...

If cybersecurity is a concern, I would probably stay away from Hik or Dahua.

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Undisclosed End User #1

I’m glad my post has generated so much discussion, though I’m still a bit unclear about which camera to get. Dahua and Hik have the best price for features, and are either safe or not safe depending on who you ask. Are these safe if VPN’d or just risky in general? I’ve also realized strength of the iOS app is definitely a key purchasing criteria.

Doesn’t seem to be too many options in the $200 range for 4MP with built in audio, PTZ, H.265 and night vision outside of those 2 manufacturers. Hanwha is the closest.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

And that is one of the reasons this should be a closed-group. It really seems to take away from the valuable information that installers/integrators give each other along with the informative articles/tutorials that IPVM provides.

PERSONALLY, I think you should have called the local installer/integrator to get your situation sorted out. I do, however, wish you the best of luck.

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John Honovich

IPVM

this should be a closed-group.

IPVM is not and will not be a closed-group. There are such groups, e.g., PSA, which I recommend you consider for that interest. I do believe an open group structure with a focus on providing knowledge based on our testing and research provides higher quality overall information.

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Chad Rohde

•Jan 06, 2018

And more subscriptions. :)

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Chad Rohde

•Jan 06, 2018

Doesn’t seem to be too many options in the $200 range for 4MP with built in audio, PTZ, H.265 and night vision outside of those 2 manufacturers. Hanwha is the closest.

Uniview

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Undisclosed Integrator #2