Cut Install Time 50% Claims Magdaddy

Author: Ari Erenthal, Published on Nov 21, 2016

Modern commercial buildings frequently use open web steel joists that makes running cabling very challenging. Cables need to be run near to but not touching the joist and supported at regular intervals, which can be costly and time consuming.

One supplier, Magdaddy, says they have a solution for this with that reduced time and cost by using neodymium magnetized cable management products.

In this note, we review the issues involved, MagDaddy's offering, potential benefits and tradeoffs.

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Comments (35)

Eddie Perry

11/21/16 03:39pm

You know When I was apprenticing to be an electrician many years ago. I got to run a bunch of conduit across a metal building ceiling. all day every day for about 2 weeks riding around on a 40ft scissor lift just to mount conduit.

What was I running conduit for you ask? well this metal building was being outfitted for 4 additional bays for a diesel mechanic shop to work on big rigs.

Blah blah blah what my point?

well about 2 days before I was finished running conduit there was a lightning storm and lighting had hit the building and knocked out some lights and other stuff.

But the interesting thing was the head diesel mechanic had these really neat "magnetic" socket holders that he had magnetically hanging on the building steel near his work area. Now I know for a fact that the building steel was grounded, but for some reason the magnets would no longer stick to the Building steel anymore or the other sockets anymore.

Would be interesting to see what would happen, but then again the NEC states unless it has been changed in the past 6 years since I cracked it open, that cabling and conduit must be "mechanically" and/or "fastened". I doubt these will get the nod for use.

Neat though.....

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Eddie Perry | 11/21/16 04:02pm

Well, that's probably why MagDaddy uses neodymium magnets. The only way to demagnetize a neodymium magnet is to get it really, really hot. If your building ever gets hot enough to cause the magnet to fail, your cable already failed 40 degrees ago.

As far as how the cable support must be connected, it honestly just says "secured by hardware including straps, staples, cable ties, hangers, or similar fittings designed and installed so as not to damage the cable". That's all I could find on the topic.

Eddie Perry

In reply to Ari Erenthal | 11/21/16 04:44pm

not true you can demagnetize neodymium magnets with lightning.

but it depends on the strength of the magnets. normally there is a rating for the strength of each magnet.

how ever the amount of current needed to pass though/around to demagnetize one is very high among the stronger class magnets its a curve actually

and the socket sets had neodymium magnets in them they were just very weak compared to what appears magdaddy is selling

a good paper for reference is this Magnetic scaffolding hooks

talk about using neodymium anchor points for scaffolding of course they would be stronger than that cable hooks that are using here in this article.

It would be a valid issue but I think it more of a minimum rating for magnets used if anything

Undisclosed #1

In reply to Eddie Perry | 11/21/16 04:55pm

not true you can demagnetize neodymium magnets with lightning...

...a good paper for reference is this...

Eddie, did you read the paper?

Conclusion

Even in a worst case scenario where one anchor point would carry the full lightning current of 40 kA, no demagnetization of the Neodymium magnets in the anchor point is to be expected.

Eddie Perry

In reply to Undisclosed #1 | 11/21/16 07:23pm

yes I did, that number is based on the exact magnet they were using for anchor points

not the same magnet that magdaddy is using or are used in tools

that is why i said there would have to be some testing and math done on these from magdaddy to make sure they can used safely.

Undisclosed #1

In reply to Eddie Perry | 11/21/16 10:39pm

yes I did, that number is based on the exact magnet they were using for anchor points

No, its not. Read it again. The lightning is described in depth, the magnet is just specified as Neodymium.

For demagnetization of Neodymium a field of approximately 1MA

The reason for this is because a material's coercivity is based on the strength of the external field and the type of material, not the amount of it.

Furthermore, the calculation does not even include the full geometric characteristics of the magnet, instead treating it as a line:

In practice, the current will not follow one line, but will be distributed over the entire surface of the magnet. This will lead to lower current densities and therefore lower fields at the location of the permanent magnets in the magnet.

Net/net, this paper does not support your conclusion of lighnting strike demagnitizing Neodymium, in fact it does just the opposite.

On the other hand, I see Jeffery K. believes that a direct lightning strike can cause demagnetization.

This sounds plausible, if perhaps moot, since a direct lightning strike would likely cause the temperature to rise over 100 degrees, which causes demagnetization due to heating in any event, as was pointed out by Ari in his initial response to you.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Eddie Perry | 11/22/16 01:11pm

[Poster is from Magdaddy]

In the six plus years we have been in business we have continually tested our products to meet or exceed all NECA and BICSI codes and standards.

Undisclosed #1

11/21/16 04:42pm

When we tested these at ISC, we could not pry the bridle ring off the I beam by yanking down no matter how hard we pulled.

Using a painters pole?

These magnets appear to have 80lbs holding force.

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Undisclosed #1 | 11/21/16 05:02pm

I grabbed the bridle ring with one hand and the I beam with the other and yanked as hard as I could for about a minute. I chose the bridle ring instead of the J hook because I figured I could get a better grip and exert more force. No dice, it wasn't moving.

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Ross Vander Klok

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Ari Erenthal | 11/21/16 05:38pm

So even if you could reach them by hand they are stuck where you put them? Couldn't slide it off?

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Ross Vander Klok | 11/21/16 05:43pm

Don't know. I admit I was testing to see if it could really hold up a bundle of cables. I didn't think about the difficulty pulling it off and repositioning it until later.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Ross Vander Klok | 11/21/16 09:33pm

yes slide them off.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Ross Vander Klok | 11/22/16 01:14pm

We suggest that the installers use a small rubber mallet and tap to re position or take off.

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Jeffrey Kintzler | 11/22/16 02:23pm

Thanks, Jeff. I edited the report to add your tip.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Undisclosed #1 | 11/22/16 01:12pm

We rate them at 90# but that in reality is lower that the testing.

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Scott Bradford

IPVMU Certified | 11/21/16 07:06pm

I've fooled around with magnets like this in the past. Their direct pull strength is good, but you can 'slide' them sideways if you pull hard enough. I could see (a very rare situation) where a cable might get caught in a ring as you were pulling it and the magnet could slide and (in theory) slide all the way off the beam. Highly unlikely, but not impossible. I still think it's a awesome, super simple idea.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Scott Bradford | 11/22/16 01:16pm

There may be the rare occasion of that happening.

What we suggest is when using Mag Daddy you use a beam clamp at the first position, at any 90 degree turn and at the last position. Now go ahead and pull cable without fear of sliding.

Undisclosed #1

11/21/16 07:11pm

Can strong, but static (non-varying), magnetic fields affect ethernet transmission?

I don't think so, but a TDR test would be interesting...

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Undisclosed #1 | 11/22/16 01:32pm

We have done testing and I believe it is available on our website. If not email me at jkintzler@magdaddyusa.com

Our design is such that when attached to a metal surface the magnetic flux is contained within the outer cup. What also happens is the north/south is being redirect inside the outer cup which increases the strength of the magnet. When you leave one of our magnetic fasteners in the same position for 2-3 days they are extremely hard to move and that is why we suggest being equipped with a small rubber mallet.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

11/21/16 09:24pm

[Poster is from Magdaddy]

Eddie's comment is only true if the lightning strike hits the I beam directly. And since we have been in business for a little over six years, we have never had this complaint. What we do have is a product that will save considerable time in labor.

We all know it is hard it is to put more in the material costs when doing an estimate. It's black and white right in front of you. What is also there is this massive gray area that is LABOR. We sell in packs or cartons of 10 so it's not a huge expenditure to try them. We have many happy customers who are amazed at the labor savings they receive.

Eddie Perry

In reply to Jeffrey Kintzler | 11/25/16 01:23am

That is about what i figured it would be based on the size. they look neat I wouldnt replace beam clamps with them out right but i can see using them if i was by my self running a ton of Cat6 across a metal building.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

11/22/16 01:56pm

As mentioned previously most of our magnetic fasteners are UL listed and Plenum rated.

Someone mentioned concerns about temperature and what happens. Neodymium magnets have different ratings so I'm not saying they were wrong. They are incorrect when it comes to ours. Our operation temperatures are at -40 degrees to 176 degrees.

Now, they do not lose all of the pull strength at those temps they will gradually lose more as the temps rise or fall. The melting point of our magnets is 560 degrees.

As with any business methods change, and in ours they change almost daily. We feel like our product is one you can use with confidence. We back all of our products 100%.

Undisclosed #1

In reply to Jeffrey Kintzler | 11/22/16 03:08pm

Someone mentioned concerns about temperature and what happens. Neodymium magnets have different ratings so I'm not saying they were wrong. They are incorrect when it comes to ours.

My '100 degrees' statement was lacking UOM, it should have been '100 degrees C'.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Undisclosed #1 | 11/22/16 03:18pm

OK that's correct.

Undisclosed Integrator #2

11/22/16 09:08pm

I saw these at ISC East and thought what my AHJ would say. Got back home and asked local code enforcement if we could use them and I was told not no but hell no!

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #2 | 11/22/16 09:27pm

Did you get a reason or a code citation?

Undisclosed Integrator #2

In reply to Ari Erenthal | 11/22/16 09:43pm

Nope, just "no, in my buildings hell no". That's just how it is here. Believe me, we have buildings here where the low voltage cable support is the strongest, most overbuilt system in the structure. The inspectors have the power and the final say.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

11/22/16 09:19pm

We have heard that in strong union areas. It is a small area but Manhattan is one of them. Strong union I assume. Not sure.

It makes no sense to impede progress. Did you show him a sample? No should always be backed up with reason. Did they tell you why? If there is a reason perhaps we can overcome the resistance to using our products. Did you tell them they were UL listed and Plenum rated? Why would 99% of the country use and approve Mag Daddy for installations. No from one individual is not how the rest of the industry views our products. If he wants a sample to test I would be happy to furnish it to him.

Give me an address to send to.

Undisclosed Integrator #2

In reply to Jeffrey Kintzler | 11/22/16 09:39pm

This is in Memphis TN. I have worked all over the country and Shelby County TN code enforcement will nail you to the wall for anything that the inspector "doesn't like". I've even had an inspector make me remover every zip tie in a building (large data job) and replace them with baling wire. My point is ask your AHJ before using anything they haven't seen before. I could ask another inspector and be told they are fine to use.

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Ari Erenthal

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #2 | 11/22/16 09:42pm

I've even had an inspector make me remover every zip tie in a building (large data job) and replace them with baling wire.

Whaaaaaaat.

Undisclosed Integrator #2

In reply to Ari Erenthal | 11/22/16 09:55pm

Yep, had another make me remove all zip ties and replace them with plenum rated ones.......in a non-plenum ceiling. Another fun thing here is if you run new cables with an old trunk you are now responsible for that entire system and if that system is not up to code you have to bring it up to code or pull your cable out and start over with a dedicated support system.

Moe Levine

11/23/16 05:29pm

I used these magdaddy bridle rings recently on a job, it was great for initially running the wires in a huge warehouse, but I didn't feel comfortable leaving it without something more permanent so I installed clamps on the iBeams. But they're great for initially running the wires. They're also very expensive when comparing to iBeam clamps.

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Jeffrey Kintzler

In reply to Moe Levine | 11/28/16 08:21pm

Moe,

The cost of course is going to be more. What you should remember is they are assembled, ready to use, right out of the box. That in itself saves around $1.80.

When evaluating Mag Daddy the only thing to consider is the labor advantage it will bring for the right installation. Of course they are not for every job but when it is you can save 40% -50% in labor.

As far as not being comfortable leaving them.....not sure why. Do you think they are going to come down? Once in position they get stronger as stated in a previous comment. If you are going to pull a considerable amount of cable, put a beam clamp at the first position, any 90 degree turns, and at the last position. Our magnetic fasteners can be used as temporary installations but are designed for permanent installations.

To view video go to www.magdaddyusa.com

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Scott Bradford

IPVMU Certified | 12/01/16 04:04pm

Ironically enough, our cable rep just brought by a demo of these items. They have about 20 skus of various different products.

Their key item, the wire loop, is VERY strong. I even tried rolling it to the side as I mentioned in a previous post and found that extremely difficult to do. So, that's a good thing. Neat idea, I can see it as a time saver in the right circumstance

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Ari Erenthal

05/01/17 04:04pm

Update: MagDaddy J hooks are noW UL listed as supporting devices under ANSI/UL 1565.

For more on the role of the AHJ, see our AHJ / Authority Having Jurisdiction Tutorial.

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