Member Discussion

No One Has Banned Hikvison Or Dahua. Hikvision Will Remain #1, Increase Their Footprint On The American Market And Become A More Formidable Opponent Than Ever Before.

No one has banned Hikvison or Dahua, the idea has been brought to the table but there is no ban. Mr. Trump plays strategy games well, he has signed nothing, Hikvision will remain #1, increase their footprint on the american market and become a more formidable opponent than ever before.

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: How Do I, As A Security Professional, Justify Using A Product Banned From Being Used By My Own Government? I Don't.


There we go! It's good to see someone is standing by their... China Communist Party-controlled partner.

In all seriousness, a few things to consider:

  • What do you do right now? It's not simply an 'idea', it's a passed bill that stands a real chance of being reconciled and signed into law. Are you going to sell this to the US government for the time being? Are US federal agencies going to buy Dahua or Hikvision right now knowing pending legislation?
  • Let's take the optimist case for you and say it gets removed from the final bill. Are you and your US government clients not concerned that it will be passed next year?
  • Are you really not aware of the overall political climate now between China and the US? Things are getting more tense and more recognition of the adversarial relationship and risks involved.
  • Why would you want to spend so much energy defending Hikvision when there plenty of other good products that can be sold to the US government with none of this risk?

What do I do right now...try my best to keep up with all of the fiscal end of year orders for Hikvision IP video systems. No one has ceased buying anything. They ask questions, I give them facts, they talk about IPVM, I give them facts, they look at the cameras, the systems and they realize they have excellent equipment, installed in the correct manner, build on solid networks and they say thank you at the end of the day. No one wants to remove anything, all they want is more. Hik Central has sold well, Blazer Pro is taking off, and the specialty products are doing very well. So everyone sticking their nose up good for you, but you better hope you are not competing with me..... Political Climate of course I am aware President Trump is playing a strategy, he is a master at that game. I don't think the end game will look anything like the first inning. I will stand with the people that have supported me well.

I respect the direct feedback. Thank you.

I do think you (and they) are taking a big risk. I say this not specific to Dahua or Hikvision, just simply to any product that is the target of such legislation.

And we have been reviewing the final bill document, it bans Hikvision under two provisions, first by name and then second by entities owned or controlled by the Chinese government, see below:

You are effectively betting that both clauses get removed. And it could happen but, wow, you have a lot riding on that.

of course I am aware President Trump is playing a strategy, he is a master at that game

You do realize this bill was not proposed by the President, correct?

They ask questions, I give them facts, they talk about IPVM, I give them facts, they talk about Global Warming, I give them the facts...

Alternative facts right?

 

No one has banned Hikvison or Dahua, Hikvision will remain #1, increase their footprint on the american market and become a more formidable opponent than ever before.

vs.

No One Has Banned Hikvison Or Dahua. Hikvision Will Remain #1, Increase Their Footprint On The American Market And Become A More Formidable Opponent Than Ever Before.

Funny how the automatic capitalization of words in titles magnifies the intensity of the statement.

I read the title first, then the actual comment a little while later.  The comment seemed more reasonable, more like a post from m.c. than M.C. :)

Point of fact, all discussion titles are automatically, programmatically titlized. I don't disagree that the caps make a statement stronger but wanted to clarify that was not a specific editorial choice, just how all IPVM discussions are displayed.

Oh, it's coming:

 

Regardless if you are a hik hater or not, you have to humbily agree with the OP here. I mean even with all the adversity they have faced lately, they are still kickin everyone's azz, otherwise they would not dominate IPVM's headlines, because noone would care. This has to be a tough blow to the Hik Haters and extremely agitating to IPVM's ongoing business plan.

I think it has to do with most Hik Customers being logical and objective combined with Hikvisions high quality product, and low costs,  that keeps Hikvision on top. Sure they had some cyber security troubles, but noone thinks their cameras are cyber warheads. Thinking even more logically, most people know that China could care less about spying in on Americans to see them picking boogers in their back yard. Thankfully Hikvision has woken up to cybersecurity and have taken great measures which is a great sign that they are not cyber arms dealers.

The OP describes situations in which his customers have mentioned current Hikvision situations but have ultimately come to the objective conclusion that Hikvision is not out to spy on you or initiate cyber war on you and ultimately proceed to buy Hikvision. I can attest to the same. 

Additionally, if you look at IPVM's continual sponsored Hik Hating facebook posts, the comments are normally overwhelmingly pro Hikvision and even sometimes comments are to the effect of "IPVM is just a china hating site", which is arguable.

On the flipside, if you take a look at the comments here, it is overwhelmingly Anti-Hikvision. But you cant take what you hear here as a determing factor of what the overall market thinks. The reason being is because most of the newer subscribers fell victim of IPVM's Anti-Hikvision advertising campaign. With comments such as this:

There we go! It's good to see someone is standing by their... China Communist Party-controlled partner.

There is no doubt in my mind that this site is overwhelmingly biased towards Hik Hating. 

What i am getting at is regardless of the controversy, the attitude is that most people will continue to buy Hikvision like its business as usual. Am I wrong though? Do you see Hikvision plummeting?

 

 

Hey Sean,

You sure love to set up strawmen and knock them down thinking that this somehow makes your argument more persuasive.

However, imo when you consistently minimize and castigate any opposing views to yours as ignorant and subjective - while ignoring the critical issues - you actually weaken your position.

China's govt has decimated many US industries by the use of unfair global business and trade practices, like wide-ranging protectionist tariffs on most imported goods while dumping their (most probably stolen IP-based) products into foreign markets in an effort to use their unfair trade position to dominate these markets.

They are actually really, really good at this and it is their known go-to move.

And their success is largely based on those in foreign markets who seek to maximize their own profits in the short term while consciously ignoring history.

Thank you for your response. However, I feel you ignored the premise of my statement.

Let me put it this way. Pretend I was not a Hik Distributor and reread my statement.

Or just let me put it this way: Will Hikvision Continue to dominate or no?

"I feel you ignored the premise of my statement."

Actually, I was trying to point out that the premise of your statement was filled with strawmen - which i do ignore because they are not actual arguments.

"Will Hikvision Continue to dominate or no?"

If this was your only real question, then my answer is that they probably will continue to dominate - for the reasons I stated in my previous reply. 

Thank you for agreeing with my strawman argument.

Or just let me put it this way: Will Hikvision Continue to dominate or no?

 

My man, Sean Nelson! That's a good post.

I think you are right and wrong; right on the low-end, wrong on the high-end.

I agree with you about Facebook and, of course, as a sizeable Hikvision partner, you have your own business results that let you immediately analyze the impact. But both FB users and Nelly's Supply focuses on lower-end, smaller size projects, etc.

Let's ignore IPVM members since you find them to be tainted.

Look at LinkedIn, our post there was liked 247 times and shared at least 100 times:

LinkedIn is a fairly good proxy for the mid to high end of the market, where opposition to Hikvision is much more significant.

Moreover, Dahua and Hikvision are absolutely having sales problems due to the House bill. Projects are being put on hold, some partners are defecting, others are worried, etc. 

Your counter argument about Hikvision cybersecurity is one that smaller applications, home, SMB, etc. can accept. That's a lot less effective with bigger companies. Whether they think Hikvision's cybersecurity is great or not, the fact that the US House of Representatives passed a bill banning their government use raises too many concerns to justify the lower cost for a lot of them, certainly at least until there is some clarity about what will finally happen. 

Sean, I can readily understand and accept what you are saying about the lower end or mass market but there are lots of security people at the higher end (whether larger end users or larger integrations) who are quite concerned about this move and its impacting actual sales.

but noone thinks their cameras are cyber warheads.

No a lot of people think they are "cyber warheads" otherwise the US government would not be baning and removing them. 

'certainly at least until there is some clarity about what will finally happen.'

 

What has been banned, what is being removed?

To me the "cyber warhead" issue, in the day to day marketplace, is not "watching Americans pick boogers". It is more the fact that these units, like any interconnected device, may be used as bots.  This is a real issue both on small sites and larger enterprise sites.  Imagine a DDOS type attack launched from 100+ devices on your own internal network.

Due to HIK & Dahuas abysmal record on cybersecurity I would not allow them in my premises. I am sorry Sean, but I must disagree with you in relation to them cleaning up their act. Whilst they have done a lot of froth & bubble stuff like forcing password change etc, their first reaction to past issues is much more telling. The fact that they deny & obscurifate every time they are caught out tells me that they are not serious about fixing the issues, only about hiding / appearing to fix the issues.

What is to say that there is not some dormant code in their units that can be remotely triggered, eg by P2P check in?

 

 

I don't know why this is difficult.  If you're in the security industry and a consultant, you treat your customers to the best product....and most likely to be beneficial to the business.  Probably putting a Chinese Gov't product isn't the best idea.

But, if you're not a security expert and a dvr trunk slammer you try and make the most money off hardware, who cares about real security.  And you go with the cheapest products.  

Not many rational people can believe a Chinese created/owned technology product is the most secure option.  But most rational people can believe they can make the most money off a Chinese created/owned technology product.  Eagle-eye and others still going all-in with co-marketing.....it makes the integrators more money, security comes 2nd.   

So, if I sell Hik Vision I am a trunk slammer?  How did I start selling Hik is a better question…

 

We sold Panasonic for years.  We were winning contracts with county government, schools, and universities.  Why?  Because it wasn’t their money.  Private business after private business opportunity I kept losing deals on price.  So, what did we do?  We went to 5 manufactures and told them we wanted their equivalent cameras to the 5 hottest selling cameras from Panasonic that we were selling.  We did shoot outs.  We compared video quality and price.  Hik became my second source for cameras as we learned they were 1/3rd the price of Panasonic but most importantly they were just as good, almost just as good, or in some cases better than the Panasonic cameras we tested against.

 

If anyone does not like it tell them they better hope they are not competing with you......

Yes if all you offer is a cheaper price. I would never place my customers network security in the hands of a communist county. Let alone put devices behind there firewalls and hope for the best....

A communist country may be coming if we lose Trump.

Reconsider your actions for risk mitigation or...

Accept the hand.

Last, old threads are old. Why not invent a fresh critic instead of circumventing an entire possibility of posts and logic that have not sided with your argument?

Give me a bowl cereal, yes?

I would never place my customers network security in the hands of a communist county.

like Latah County?

IPVM Image

As I am sure you know by now it all depends on the customer.  If I owned a small mom and pop shop selling stuff or providing a service HIKVision would definitely be a choice given cost and quality.  However, in my position with a global organization we don't really think the risk is worth the cost savings.  I know there is a lot of hard feeling around the subject here but I believe that most people here know that no matter what it is about the customer being given the information and letting them weigh the pros and cons to evaluate if the risk is worth the reward.  As long as you are willing to support the system, educate the customers with unbiased facts, and do your best to keep it secure at all levels then you are doing your job. 

I may be unfairly assuming you are an integrator.

If I owned a small mom and pop shop selling stuff or providing a service HIKVision would definitely be a choice given cost and quality. However, in my position with a global organization we don't really think the risk is worth the cost savings.

You make a valid point here and one that should be highlighted. Mom and Pop shops are not afraid of Chinese government infiltration in their business. Most of them wouldn't pass a PCI compliance audit and they just don't care. There are bigger risks to mom and pop shops and those don't bother them so why would cameras. I can't blame them for choosing Hikvision. 

As for our business, we won't sell them anymore. Not even to small shops. We have found alternatives to use that are both affordable and of good quality. While we started to turn away from Hikvision two years ago it was like a drug and had to slowly get off it. Now we're clean and clear and using other products. I rest more easily now. 

We have found alternatives to use that are both affordable and of good quality.

Everyone always seems to say this without qualifying it. What alternatives?

Spent two years looking for alternatives and it wasn't easy. Not just going to give that information up!

Spent two years looking for alternatives and it wasn't easy. Not just going to give that information up!

And people wonder why Hikvision remains popular.

Most, if not all Security Consultants I interface with will not specify HIK or Dahua on their projects. Several high end integrators I work with won't even touch HIK. So it must remain popular with the so-called "trunk slammers".

I view it as being judged by the company we keep.

"So, if I sell Hik Vision I am a trunk slammer?"

YES

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: So, If I Sell Hikvision Am I A Trunk Slammer?

Obviously besides security holes in the cameras themselves, our concern is a customer coming back later and saying 'you knew these cameras were blah blah and you sold them to us anyway'.  

 

I agree.  This is only 1/3 of its way into a law.  Lets see if it passes senate and POTUS signs it. 

 

Until then, lets all take a big deep breath. I think with common sense approaches, end users can make an informed decision between Hikvision, Axis, and others. 

Integrators can inform themselves and the customers and use best practices to protect everyone.  I have used Hikvision and would continue to offer to low to mid level customers with 4 to 64 cameras.  They also make an unrivaled HD over Coax product line.

The statement "No One Has Banned Hikvison..." is not completely true.  I have a customer that came to us four years ago asking to switch from Mobotix to Hikvision.  We installed about 2000 cameras before the WSJ report came out.  Right after the report came out the customer demanded we stop selling them Hikvision and find them an alternative.        

#11, I agree with you. There are various individual organizations who have banned Hikvision, e.g., Fortune 500 Company Bars Dahua and Hikvision.

#1's point was more about the US government.

Utilities ore on the heals of banning Dahua and Hikvision on any future projects, especially those being installed at NERC/FERC sites due to possible cyber issues.

both have been banned here so not sure what your saying

both have been banned here

They are not banned here. While both have significant problems certainly and deserve criticism for many of the things they do, we strive to take the same approach to testing, including them in our software, and to fairly respond and discuss them with members.

The people defending Hikvision can say whatever they want as a reason, its all semantics, because at the end of the day when all is said and done, it is about money and nothing else. Hikvision gives the people who sell it a massive price advantage over other brands. Do they pass that savings on to the customer? Maybe a little bit, but I guarantee they are taking home a larger profit margin than non Hikvision users. The question every integrator has to ask themselves is, What do you stand for as a person and as a company. If your in it for the quick buck and don't care about anything else then you will sell Hikvision. If you on the other hand recognize that China has an unfair advantage when it comes to the manufacturing of products, or feel that the lack of labor and safety regulations in China is something you do not want to support, or if your tired of US manufacturing jobs leaving the US, or any of a thousand other reasons, then you make a different choice.

but I guarantee they are taking home a larger profit margin than non Hikvision users.

I seriously doubt this. 

If you on the other hand recognize that China has an unfair advantage when it comes to the manufacturing of products, etc. etc. etc................

Respectfully, this is a strawman argument and one that is spoken of quite frequently on here.

The premise behind this argument is hypocritical when thought of objectively. The reason being is that you most likely buy Chinese made products every single day. If you feel very strongly about this position, are you willing to stop buying all Chinese made goods? Its going to be very difficult to do so. If you are concerned about Hikvision destroying the market because of China's "unfair advantages", do you not also care about the other markets you are destroying when you buy other Chinese made goods? 

The only reason you feel this way about Hikvision is because they are your competitor and you are looking for a differentiator for people to buy your goods, so for this I dont blame you for being a salesman, but you cant really be serious about it can you??

Your iPhone was made in China.  Or if you have an Android it was most likely made in China.  I don’t see you throwing that out the window any time soon.  

 

And of course I have to pass the savings on to the customer.

 

Yes, it is true that my iPhone was made in China.  However it wasn’t made BY the Chinese government or a company primarily ran by said government.  See the difference?

So a phone made in a communist country is safer than a camera because the government doesn’t own the business?  Nope not buying it.  If the connection is the communists are spying with cameras then how would they not use power to use devices that could do so much more damage?  You can’t have it both ways.  Cellphones from China are just as safe or just (if not more so) dangerous.

Not to say your point doesn't have merit.  I am not in the cell phone industry and this is not a cell phone forum.

My cameras are on a network with no internet connectivity.  I’m not worried about anything hacking from outside, or anything calling home from the inside.  If best practices for network security are followed, I can’t see an issue.   If they are not.....   well YMMV I suppose on your comfort level.

Bradley, thanks for your first comment.

My cameras are on a network with no internet connectivity.

Related to that, we have statistics on remote access usage:

From what see overall, the trend is more and more remote access as this is driven by users demands for seeing / watching sites on the road, at home, etc.

I still have remote access, even though cameras are on a secure network, via OpenVPN (2048bit) on the server that’s recording.    No way I’d be enabling remote access directly to a camera.  A little bit of thought in regards to security and following best practices can mitigate many risks...  no matter the brand or country of origin.  

Bradley, that's good. Related to that, only half of the integrators surveyed say they use VPN access normally: DDNS vs P2P vs VPN Usage Statistics

The issue is that the camera can still be exploited.  If the recording server gets hacked for example, having a camera with telnet or a backdoor/password reset algorithm allows someone to then have access to the cameras.

Some if a router or VLAN gets misconfigured.

Whenever i read comments by people defending these brands based on things like it is a stable product, has great image, etc etc  I really do feel shocked. The issue at hand is not about the quality of the product, it is about the national security of your country.

Additionally, people talking about the great profits are even more shocking. Do you set all morals aside because of profit, would you really sell any product just because it makes a good profit with no regard to the ramifications for your customers and potentially for your country? 

You should all look at the reason why it has been proposed they be banned, it is not because the product is poor quality or good profits can not be had, It is because the US Government has a concern that these products present an unacceptable cybersecurity risk.

So if you really want to defend the brands it would be good to see you talking about why they ARE NOT a cybersecurity risk rather than all the other things that just divert attention from the real issue.

Disclosure - I work for one of these brands

Can someone tell me how a Hik camera installed at a resort is more of a national security risk than an iPhone or Android that is carried into say a sensitive investigative organization or tech company?  

Jon, If the North Korea Government manufactured cameras would you install them for your customers?   What about USB fans? Would you plug them into your computers? 

Stay on point with me.  If the contention is that the Chinese government is using Hik to spy, how can one say that the government wouldn’t put agents in the iPhone or Droid factories?  

 

Furthermore how are cameras at a resort a bigger national security threat then smartphones made in the same country that could have malware embedded in them or in the countless apps on these devices?

 

That isn’t a problem for most of the people on this board because smartphones are not competeing against whatever camera they sell.

 

so is this a national security issue or a competition issue?  I say the later.

This is a national security issue.  Now please answer my questions....

 

Says the guy who still has not answered my question...

Jon, the difference with iPhones is that their software is developed and controlled by a USA company.

Apple: America

Hikvision: China Communist Party

Nope John the argument does not work.  Between hacked apps like free flashlight apps and IPVM’s contention that the Chinese government is in complete control of what happens in their boarders you have to agree that the PRC could get agents on the floor and contaminate a random supply of Droids and or iPhones.

But cyber-security expert Prof Alan Woodward, from Surrey University, said: "For years now, engineering people to plug in a USB stick you supplied has been a classic way of circumventing security measures to get your software on their machine.

Who needs USB drives when you have millions of IOT devices deployed. 

PRC could get agents on the floor and contaminate a random supply of Droids and or iPhones.

Sounds like an exciting movie!

Let's contrast it to Hikvision:

Hikvision is the PRC, PRC needs to do nothing to contaminate it because it controls whatever goes in there

The ban being discussed by the US government is for US government facilities, not resorts.

Ok so we agree a Chinese made camera at a resort is safer than a Chinese made smartphone at a government facility.  Thanks for clearing that up.

you win the Whataboutism Award.

and Hikvision cameras are still a national security threat to U.S. govt facilities.

Right up there with “Hik Vision took some dealers out for a steak dinner” 

And remember... my original question was how is a Hik camera at a resort a bigger threat than a smartphone in a sensitive area?

Microsoft windows: America

microsoft windows exploits

Would you like to see more links?

I wonder if all the pirated copies of Windows that proliferate in China are affected by authentic Windows exploits?

Microsoft's codebase is at least 1,000x larger than Hikvision. I know it makes you feel better to compare the complexities of a rocket and a bicycle but it's not accurate.

But here is the more important thing - Microsoft is an American company and is not controlled by the Chinese government. It is not simply about vulnerabilities but whether the US government can trust companies / products. Those owned by the Chinese government = not trustworthy to the US government.

You are absolutely right!

That why Microsoft has 1.000x more problem/weaknesses 

I agree with you!

I am lot more concerned with Microsoft win flaws then cameras

microsoft-confirms-its-patched-most-of-the-nsas-windows-exploits

and why USA Gov is not banning Microsoft? :) 

I will say any camera system with internet access could be a security risk.  

and, I will say any windows computer IS much bigger security risk

so argue that risk on a computer site discussion forum.

and Hikvision cameras remain a national security threat to U.S. govt facilities