Allegations ****
*******, **** ***** ** *** ****** President ** *** (*********) ***** ******* ** ********* ** **** *** $123 *******, ***** **** *** ********** ** an ******* **** ******** ******* ************* titled********* ***** ***** ******, ************ *****:
*** ******* ******** *** ********** ** the ****** * ******** *******:
No ******* *** ** ******* ****
******* ********* ** **** ********* ** share *** ******* ** ***** ** the ********** ***** ********* *** ******* down:
*’* ***** *** **** *********** *** provided ** *** ******** ********. * am **** **** ** **** **** out ** ****. * *** ******* you **** **’* ********* ***** *** having *** **** ****** ****** ** irresponsible *** ******* ******* ** **** they **** ******.
Interceptor ****** ** *** *** **** ********* **
**** ******* **** *** ********* ** how '*** *********** *******' ****** ** make ***** *** ** ****. ******, in******* ******* *******, ** ********** ***** ****** ***** *** ****:
*******, ** ***** *** ******** ********* saw *** ******** ** ******** ********, noting:
******* ** ******* *********** *****, ***, ****, ***, ***, FASI-T, ****-**, ****, *** ******** ***** ***********. ** *** ******** ****, ** ********* ****:
*** ******************** *** ******** *** ** ******* serial ******* ******** ******* *** ********* devices ** '**** **' *** ****** unresponsive. ****** *** ***** **** * building **** ***** ******, ** **** a ******* ***** *** ** ****** with * ****** ****** ** ** entrance.
*** ******** *** ****** ****** '***** of *** ***' **** * ***** supervision ****, ********** **** ****** **** killing *** ******** ******* *** ******* that ******** ******* **** ************* ***** dial *** ** ******* *******.
************ ** ********* ** '******, *** not ***' ~ **-****** ******* *** alarm **********.
If ** ** *****
** ** ** ***** *** ** admits **** **** ***** ***** ** be ********* ** ** ** *********, then *** *********** *** * ****** of **** ******** ** ******.
Investigation **** *.*. ******** ******* ****** **********
** ********* **, ****, *** *********** Project********* (*** **-**** **********)****.*. ******** ******* ****** ************ *********** ***** ****** ** ***** nonconformant ** ** *** **** ********* as *** ******* ***** *****:
Pitch ** ******** ************
**** ** **** ***** *** ******* a ********** **** *** ** **********, Jentoft *** ***** **** ******* ******** publications, ********* ****, ** * '**** alarm ***** ******':
** ** *****, ***** ** ** recall ** *** **** *********.
*********** ***** **** **** ** ** email, ** ***** **** **** ****** we ***** ********** *** ******** *** a ****** ** **** ** / when *** ** ********** ******** ***** panels ** ** ***-**********.
*** *** ** *** ***** *********** of **** ******* ***,***: ***** ***** ***** ****** ***** Be *******. *****, ** ******* ****, **** SSI *** *** **** *** **** more ******** *******, *.*.,***: *** ****** ***** *** ******* Alarm ***** ************: ***** ***** ****** ***** *********?
Why *** **** ***** ** ********?
** ** *** ***** *** *** Interceptor ******* *** *** **** *** this ********* **** ***** *** ** government **** *** ********. *** ******* issue *** **** **** ***** *** some ****, *.*., ** ******* **** 18 ****** *** -*** *********** **** ** *** ************* In ******** ** ***** *******.
Blood ** Hands - *********** *** *****
*** ********** '***** ** *****' ***** that ******* ** *********** *** *******'* death *** **** **** ** ** least ** ******** *****, *.*., ******* Pilate ******* *** ***** ** ***** of ********'* ***** / *****. *** 'on *****' ******* ** ********** ***** and ****** ********** ******* ***'* ***** and ***** *******.
** **'* *** ************** ******* * little *** **** ******* ****** *** street, **** ***** ********* *****. **** situation **, *********, **** *******.
Profit ****** ******
********, ******* *** ***** ***** ** make ******** ** ******* *** ** portraying ** ** *******. **** ******* an ******* *** ***** ******** ** interest.
Libel / ********** ****
****** ** ************ ******** ****** **** out ************* **** **** ** ****** off ** ** *******.
*********, ** ** *** **** ******* did **** ****** *** ** ********* to ***** ******* *** ** *************. If *** ** ********** **** ******* a ****** **** ***** ********* ******* Jentoft's ********** ****. *** ** **** lose, ******* ** * *****-******* ****** payday, ******* ***** ** ****** * multi-million ****** *******.
Vote / ****
Update - ** ****** *** **********
** ** ***** ** ** **** member, ** *** ****** *** **********, countering:
** **** ** ******** ****** ******* the ********** ********* ** *** ******. The ******* ********* ******* ********** *********** hazards, ****** ** ****** *** *********** disablement ** * **** ****** ******. Those ****** ****** **** ***** *** commercial ******** ** ******* *******. *** requirements ***** ********* ****** ****** ** fire ***/** ********* ********* ****** *** protected **** *** ********* *** ******** by *** ********** ********* ** ****.
Comments (38)
Harun Seel
This is BIZARRE to say the least. I have Zwirn’s excellent book “The Alarm Science Manual” and I agree with most of his views.
It will be interesting to see how this shakes out.
Create New Topic
John Bazyk
IPVMU Certified | 10/14/19 01:32pm
I tested his theory on a DMP XR panel this morning. Shorting the power on the keypad bus only impacts the keypad bus. So anything that's wireless, zones or access control on the LX/AX bus or communications are not impacted by the short on the keypad bus. We have also seen shorts on the keypad bus for Bosch not impact communication or zones, only keypads.
My research into this is very limited.
Create New Topic
Undisclosed #1
yes, but if your plan is to make such an allegation regardless, it is better to make it before the government report than after an exoneration, no?
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Why are there so many certifications referenced after Zirwin name? It looks strangely “try hard” especially in context to the article. Is the an attempt to make it look more ridiculous?
Create New Topic
Undisclosed #1
speaking of “blood on hands”, literally, this litigation taken by SawStop, maker of table saws that stop on contact with flesh, might be of interest to Zwirn and co:
SawStop Table Saw Litigation: Three Key Takeaways for the Product Liability Practitioner
at the very least he could add PLP, Product Liability Practitioner to his credentials.
Create New Topic
Brian Rhodes
Keith Jentoft responded to the article, we have pasted it unedited below:
I believe that this statement is not accurate, “What Jentoft does not emphasize is how 'The Interceptor Project' stands to make money off of this.” This was very clear in the Security Sales article and I was clear with him in our interview. Here is what the article stated:
This same Security Sales and Integration article referred to the complaint regarding loss of life,
I maintain that if people lost their lives because UL allowed a non-compliant product to be certified, then at some level UL is responsible and has blood on their hands because somebody died due to their failure.
Regards,
Keith Jentoft
Create New Topic
Undisclosed #1
does Jentoft not have blood on his own hands from his Videofied panels, or???
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Just for context, its good to bear in mind the irrelevance of UL outside of the US domestic market.
Much be a slow news day - even the poll shows no-one has any real idea or interest!
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Do you have any idea when the CPSC will reach a verdict?
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Poll needs a fourth option of "Demagoguery sells."
Perhaps in the interest of public safety, Mr. Jentoft should consider offering his product free of charge.
Otherwise, isn't the blood on HIS hands, should a panel remain unmodified, and end up 'causing' deaths?
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Integrator #2
His product actually looks pretty sound, its just a hard sell for me if its cloaked in fire and brimstone sales/PR tactics.
Create New Topic
Undisclosed #1
oh, that Jesus ;)
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Distributor #8
I have over 30 years in this industry, especially the alarms side of it. In all of that time I have seen more issues with panels when there is an overload / near short on the sounder or strobe outputs than I have seen issues with keypad bus run / faults 'killing' a panel.
The obvious exception to this is panels which have a single 485 (or 485 like) LAN for communications to external expanders, keypads etc. However faults on these runs, whilst they may kill the remote devices, do not typically stop panel communicators etc from functioning.
Certainly there are issues in this day & age of external communicators (dialler capture devices) which are powered from the panel. This is mostly because most panels have a single, or at best 2 fuses / PTCs for external power supply & shorting a sensor wire can take these out. That is why best practice is to use fuse distribution boards, but of course they cost money & nobody wants to spend it. Most installers will not even quote for them as that will make them seem more expensive, and they are not good enough sales people to convince the purchaser to look past the cheapest price.
Create New Topic
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Response I received from UL on this matter today. One thing I can tell you as a UL certified company, they take these accusations seriously. I foresee a lawsuit coming Keith's way.
UL’s Response to Recent Fire Alarm Control Panel Claims
Dear Valued Customer,
UL’s public mission is to promote safer working and living environments for all people. We make every effort to confirm that UL-certified products meet stringent safety requirements, including opening a Product Incident Report for any issue that comes to our attention.
Consistent with our usual policies regarding product safety matters, when UL received the alarm system claims, UL immediately opened a Product Incident Report and began an investigation.
During such investigations, certification documentation is reviewed, products are often re-tested, and if any issues are found, UL works with the product manufacturer to resolve the issues. In some instances, a public notice may be issued.
Based on the investigation completed thus far, no safety issues have been identified. The investigation is still ongoing.
UL sees no imminent hazard despite the assertions currently in the market. The current standards address reasonably foreseeable hazards, faults or misuse not intentional disablement of a life safety device. Those making claims have their own commercial interest in driving concern. The requirements being suggested around attack by fire and/or malicious intrusion inside the protected area are currently not mandated by the applicable standards or code. New suggested requirements could be brought to the attention of the Standard Technical Panel. Those making claims are part of the STP and have not brought suggested revisions to the STP’s attention to-date.
For any questions related to this matter, please contact Kevin Faltin, Vice President of Building and Life Safety Technologies at Kevin.R.Faltin@ul.com.
Create New Topic
Brian Rhodes
[OCTOBER 17th UPDATE - The Interceptor Responds with 'ALL ROADS LEAD BACK TO NFPA 72']
The Interceptor Project responded to 'UL's Response' with this 4-page letter titled: ALL ROADS LEAD BACK TO NFPA 72.
In that response, Jentoft/Zwirn make the connection between UL 1023 (Standard for Household Burglar-Alarm System Units) to NFPA 72 via UL 985 (Standard for Household Fire Warning System Units).
That connection is central to The Interceptor Project's 'Blood on (UL's) Hands' allegations that state intrusion systems do not comply with:
The letter contends while NFPA 72 lists 'fire system' requirements, these codes are written to reference each other, with UL 1023 citing NFPA 72 via UL 985 requirements.
The image below is included in The Interceptor Project's letter to illustrate this:
We have asked UL to respond and will post their feedback.
Create New Topic
Michael Votaw
Any system has failure points that can be exploited by man or nature. The end result of this: Drives up everyone's cost to do business, adds more bureaucracy to the job and has little benefit. People will stop buying residential fire because the cost has now exceeded their perceived benefit. Liability and the ambulance chasers of the world have gotten way out of control at all our expense. Agree that if this was a sweep it under the rug by anyone or there are documented fatalities due to a failure to comply with standards, it's a different ballgame.
Create New Topic
John Honovich
Update: While UL did an investigation rejecting this, a law firm is pursuing a class action lawsuit against Honeywell on this.
Create New Topic
Larry Tracy
Any bets who put the law firm up to this
what about all the other potential failure mechanisms that can happen to a security system?
Michael comments above are correct, anything made by man can be beat by man.
Create New Topic
John Honovich
New video posted by the Interceptor on a letter they sent to UL and UL's response:
Create New Topic