Avigilon Discontinuing Rialto Analytics Line

One advantage the ES unit has over the Raito is you can do 4 1080P cameras on one box where you would need 2 Rialtos to do 4 1080P cameras. So with 4 1080P cameras, the ES unit is more cost effective over the Rialto. $4480 vs $4000

Also, the ES recorder supports higher resolutions and supports Avigilon's multi-sensor cameras which I have tested and works.

2MP x 4 cameras @ 30FPS

3MP x 4 cameras @ 20FPS

5MP x 2 cameras

8MP x 1 camera

With the new mobile, app you can connect directly to ES boxes and receive alarm events which is great. Overall I think the ES unit is a nice improvement though I can see how some of the missing features could be an issue for some customers.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

I edited the price comparison to reflect the additional 1080p camera support. Most of the people I spoke with who were using Rialtos recently were doing so with thermal cameras, or lower resolution cameras, which is why I focused on the 4 channel price comparison for both products.

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Jordi Ibero

Imago IP Solutions

And the new RPA comes with the supposed new analytics engine. Compare an H4A connected as RTSP doing analytics in the RPA with the on-board analytics :)

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

"Discontinuing the Rialto, and replacing it with an ACC-centric product, indicates that Avigilon does not see a benefit to being open with their analytics."

Aren't Avigilon's analytics cameras built in compliance with the ONVIF analytics spec?

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Brian Karas

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

IPVM

From page 2 of the H4 Bullet Datasheet (which, as an Avigilon employee, you must be familiar with):

Do you think not supporting bounding boxes in 3rd party VMSes is "open"?

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

I saw a live demo of this at ISC West and was very excited for my customers using Avigilon VMS. The ease of use and accuracy of their new suite of searches was impressive. However, there currently is zero 3rd party support for any cameras outside their new line. Most of my customers don't use Avigilon cameras and were very disappointed to hear this. They are forcing you to buy their new cameras or "Analytic Enabled" cameras to use the analytics. What I found interesting is there's no reason they need to do so. To use their new advanced search you still need buy this box or a heavy spec'd server to operate, meaning that little to no processing is done on the camera.

As a big supporter of Avigilon VMS, I can't stand their cameras. Because of that, this is very disappointing to me and many of my customers.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

I'm curious, why do you hate their cameras? Most integrators or customers that have used Avigilon cameras generally seem to like them.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

In reply to Brian Karas

Quality and price point. We use to use almost exclusively Avigilon cameras and VMS, unless requested differently from our customers. We had pretty high failure rates on their 180/360 line which drove us to Oncam single sensors. The low (1 & 2) megapixel cameras didn't stack up well against Axis for image or price. We did live side by side shoot outs, much like your articles and the majority of our customers asked for Axis.

When it comes to their high 29 megapixel cameras, they're beautiful and we've used a few when the budget will allow. But their 1&2's MP price was more expensive to the customer and even on the new models the image is only comparable.

Sorry to be long winded, so now to problem. Now I have a customer that has say 50+ Axis cameras and Avigilon VMS at a location. They want to use this great new Avigilon Analytic Search, but can't utilize all their existing cameras. They will have to either fork lift the system (which will never happen) or only add a few Avigilon H4's that can support this. If they had 3rd party support, they could have amazing coverage of their building and sell a lot more analytic licenses.

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Michael Miller

Avigilons's H4 cameras have the analytics built into them this why you need to use their cameras if you want analytics unless you use ES recorder. This IMHO is better than server-based analytics as it scales better and most importantly is much easier to setup/configure the analytics as the integration is better.

When do you your tests between Avigilon and Axis are you using H4 cameras or the old H3 line? We have done extensive testing and the performance between Axis and Avigilon is equal IMO if you know who to configure the cameras properly.

If you're using Oncam I would recommend you look at Avigilon's new fisheye cameras as they have better dewarping and much better motion detection.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

We have not tested the new H4 line yet. We tested the H3 line against M and P Series Axis cameras. I consider myself decently adept at configuring the cameras to get optimal performance in our testing. In our findings, when the image was comparable, Axis beat Avigilon on overall pricing every time. I don't wish to get into a price discussion on this but Avigilon would have been an easier choice for me to push, since they were giving me significantly more margin than Axis. But the overall price, was much better for my customer in going with Axis.

I also saw the new fisheye camera the show, and look forward to testing it against Oncam and the new Axis 360. I'll be setting all 3 up in the same spot for lighting, distance and overall image comparisons. As always, I look forward to letting the best camera win.

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Brian Karas

IPVM

The ES Analytics Appliance, which is Avigilon's replacement for the Rialto is intended to address your use-case: adding Avigilon's analytics to non-Avigilon cameras.

Some issues, as you note, is that if the customer is already running ACC, then swapping their current NVR's for the Analytics Appliance is going to be a bit of a forklift upgrade, not to mention you will likely need more rackspace (you can fit two of them side-by-side in 1U of rackspace, but that is only 8 cameras).

You are also forced into the Enterprise license level, as that is what the ES Analytics Appliance comes with.

The following shows a comparison between Avigilon's 16 port video appliance with 9TB of storage and software upgrade to ACC Enterprise, vs. purchasing 4 of the ACC ES Analytics Appliances (16 channels, 8TB total storage), you are paying ~$308/channel (at MSRP) to add-on the analytics. It is not a perfect comparison, but Avigilon's price list is not setup to offer an easy/direct comparison.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

In reply to Brian Karas

I would love to see this tested. The reason I brought this up, is because at ISC West, Avigilon told me and my colleagues that the ACC box would not work with 3rd party cameras. The box would help bring in older Avigilon models and encoders. My argument to them was if it supports ONVIF why wouldn't this work. I wasn't sure if they were purposefully blocking other cameras to force you to their hardware (on of my least favorite traits for any manufacturer).

Thank you for the breakdown on cost, it gives us a much better idea on how this will play out.

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Michael Miller

The ES analytic recorder absolutely works with 3rd party ONVIF cameras as I have test it with Axis and Flir so far.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

Thank you for letting me know this. When the advance search is released, I look forward to testing it myself. I was told June at the show, was this correct?

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Michael Miller

I think you might be confused on Avigilon's analytics.

When you're talking about " advanced search" I think you're referring to Appearance Search for people and vehicles. This is already released but requires H4 cameras and a Windows server with a NVIDIA card installed. Appearance Search only works with H4 cameras so the ES recorder is not supported.

Unusual motion detection has not been released yet so I don't have all the details. I am not sure if you need the NVIDIA card or if this is done exclusively in the cameras.

If you want analytics it will be more cost effective to us H4 cameras with a server or non-analytics ES recorder. Then to use Axis cameras with ES analytics recorders.

Also, the H4 camera is a substantial improvement over the H3 cameras so I would recommend you test these vs Axis. I know some of Axis cameras are cheaper but if you factor in the cost to add analytics to them, Avigilon cameras will be in the same price range or cheaper by the time you add your labor to configure everything.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

Unusual Motion Detection does not need Video Analytics enabled cameras and as far as I am aware should work with all ONVIF cameras as it will be Server based I'm told.

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Brian Karas

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

IPVM

UMD does not use analytics, but it is camera-based, and thus only applicable to Avigilon cameras. More information: Avigilon Unusual Motion Detection And Advanced Appearance Search Examined

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John Honovich

IPVM

In reply to Brian Karas

Also, UMD was a technology demo with no release date so hard to assess or even plan for it.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

"They will have to either fork lift the system (which will never happen) or only add a few Avigilon H5's that can support this. If they had 3rd party support, they could have amazing coverage of their building and sell a lot more analytic licenses."

A. There's no such thing as H5s currently on the market

B. Why would you ever need to forklift a system to add analytics? This article is exactly about how you don't have to.

C. Avigilon doesn't sell Avigilon analytic licenses.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #1

A.)I apologize for the typo. I have edited it in the post.

B.) If you also read the entire post, you saw that I was given incorrect information at the show and was told that the ACC box would not work with 3rd party cameras. If that was the case, the only way to use analytics for that system would be to remove the cameras, aka a forklift. I hope that clarifies.

C.)I understand that they don't, they sell cameras and boxes with the cost of a license already built in. They're getting their "license" fee in another way doesn't mean there's no cost.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

It's been several years now since AVIGILON replaced the 29MP camera with the new H.264 30MP camera along with the other models in their Pro range. It must have been a while since you used AVIGILON cameras I guess. As mentioned by Michael the new H3A and H4A range with Video Analytics and the more recently introduced H4SL cameras improved image quality again in the ONVIF range. I do not believe that as you suggest the Axis models would out perform those AVIGILON cameras. I'm not sure what you mean with 'If they had 3rd party support, they could have amazing coverage of their building and sell a lot more analytic licenses'. The new Appearance Search for persons and or vehicles works in combination with the H3A and/or the H4A cameras and ACC6.2

I have nothing against Axis or Axis cameras but I've seen many comparisons and it is very hard to state that one if clearly better than the other although the Adaptive IR in the AVIGILON cameras seems to do everytime.

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Undisclosed Integrator #4

As I understand it, the ES Analytics appliance does not support mobile unless you have an additional PC appliance or server with the gateway installed. We deploy a large number of mobile devices and this was disappointing to hear that we would have to add another appliance for mobile to work on your phone.

The ES appliance is Linux based so you wouldn't be able to add the gateway. I've heard that they may be working on either new firmware or a design that might give you all of this packaged into the ES appliance in the near future.

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Michael Miller

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #4

This has already been released and working. You need to use ACC Mobile 3 app to connect directly to the ES recorder.

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Undisclosed Integrator #4

It requires firmware 6.2 or later. We'll test this with the new firmware.

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Michael Miller

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #4

Yes, that is correct. It works with both the ES and ES analytic recorders. I have tested with both and works well though basic at this point. The now mobile App is a nice improvement over the old one.

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Undisclosed Integrator #4

So we shouldn't have any problems using it when the ES appliance is connected to a 4G Cradlepoint?

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Michael Miller