Latest London Police Facial Recognition Suffers Serious Issues

By: Kayleigh Long, Sean Patton, and Charles Rollet, Published on Feb 24, 2020

On February 20, IPVM visited another live face rec deployment by London police, but this time the system was thwarted by technical problems and poor weather conditions, even getting called off early. New cameras we also used, although they were of a model that wasn't well suited to the task.

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With no arrests and poor implementation, privacy rights group Big Brother Watch described this deployment as a "complete police failure". In this post, we examine the system's issues, new specs, and more, including:

  • Background
  • Video Walkthrough
  • New Cameras With Lower Resolution Used
  • Weather-related Challenges: Umbrellas, Hoodies
  • Deployment Called Off Due to Software Glitch
  • Passerby Reaction
  • Activists Call Out "Complete Police Failure"
  • Final Analysis: Long List of Problems
  • Met Police Response
  • Conclusion

** ******** **, **** visited ******* **** **** rec ********** ** ****** police, *** **** **** the ****** *** ******** by ********* ******** *** poor ******* **********, **** getting ****** *** *****.*** ******* ** **** used, ******** **** **** of * ***** **** wasn't **** ****** ** the ****.

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**** ** ******* *** poor **************, ******* ****** group*** ******* ************** **** ********** ** a "******** ****** *******".** **** ****, ** examine *** ******'* ******, new *****, *** ****, including:

  • **********
  • ***** ***********
  • *** ******* **** ***** Resolution ****
  • *******-******* **********: *********, *******
  • ********** ****** *** *** to ******** ******
  • ******** ********
  • ********* **** *** "******** Police *******"
  • ***** ********: **** **** of ********
  • *** ****** ********
  • **********

[***************]

**********

** **** *******, ******'* Metropolitan ****** (*** ***)************* *****, *** *** first ****, ***** *********** use ** **** **** recognition (***) ** ***** to ***** **** ** "serious *****".

**** ********** ******* * February ** ************ **** ******. ******* conditions **** ****, ******** we ***** **** ***** have ****** ********. ******* prominent ***** *** ****** avoiding *** ********* **** or ******** ***** ***** as **** ****** *******.

Latest ********** ** ****** ******

** ******** **, *** Met ******* *** *** van ** ********* ****** ************** *** ***** ** London. **** ** *** of *** **** *********/******************** ** *** ** London *** * ***** subway ****.

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**** *** * ***** walkthrough ** *** **** as ****:

New *******

*** *********** ********** ********** was **** ** ******** different ****** ***** *** used. ** *** ******** deployment ** **** ******, IPVM ******** ******* *** ******,*** **** ****, ********* *****-********* **** ****:

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**** ** ** *** choice ******** ** *** Q16 ** ** ** lower ********** - ***** vs *** - *** the ******* ********* ** the ***** ** *** 400m **** **** ****-***** IR, ***** ***** *** be ****** ******* * densely-packed ****** ** ********** close *****.

*** *****-** ***** ** marketed *** *** ****, airfields, *** ***** ******* environments *** ** *** Mil-spec *******. ** ** certainly *** ****** *********, **** ** *** rain. *******, *** ****** officers ** *** ***** told **** **** **** was ** "*******" ******** to *** ******* ******** last ****.

Rain * *******

** *** ******* ****** the ********** *** **** pedestrians *** ********* ** hoodies, ********* *** ****** ineffective ***** ** **** cases ********'* ***** **** entirely ******** ** *** cameras, ** ***** *****:

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****** **** **** **** in *** **** ***, if *** ****** *** to ** *********** ******* too **** ****** **** using *********, ****’* ******** suspend **. **** ** a **** ******* *** London, ***** **** ** common.

Deployment ****** *** *** ** ******** *****

*** ********* ******* ** 11am *** *** *** about *.* ***** *** was ****** *** ***********. (The ***** ********** ****** 5 *****). ****** *************** told **** **** **** experiencing ********* *********** ******** ****** *** connectivity ******* *** ******** and *** ******* **** carried (*********** ***********) ***** notify **** ** **** matches.

***** ** * ***** of ****** ******* ** and ******** *** ******* from *** ***:

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Passerby ******** *****

******** **** ********* ** the ****, *** ******** to *** *** ** LFR ********** *** *****.*** ***** *** **** he ****’* ***** **** his ****** ****, **** he *** ********** ** claims **** ***** ******** be ******* *** ******** people’s ********* ******* **** not ******, *** **** he *** ******** ***** cases ** ******** ********:

********’* *** * ************, don’t ****?

******* *** *** **** resigned:

*** **** ** *** do ***** **, ** there?

*** *** **** ****, however, ****** **** ***** way ******* *** *** area ******* *** **** thought/hesitation. ***** ****** ** be **** ******* ********* about ** **** ** the **** ****************, ******** *** ** the ******* **** ******* and ***** *******.

Deployment *******: ** *******/*******

** ******* ** ******* were **** ****** *** deployment, ****** *********. *******, police ** *** ***** conducted *** ****-***-********. *** was ** * ***** man *** ****** ** police ********* *** *** system *** *** *** hands ** *** *******. The ****** *** ******* black *** *** **** witnessed ***** ******* ******* the *** **** *** an ******* ******. **** men **** ******** ******* charge, ******** *** ***** was ********* ****** *** placed ** * ****** van, ********* ** *** Brother *****.

**** ****** ******** **** police ** *** ***** (and **********) ***** ***** incidents *** *** ******** no ********.

Big ******* ***** *********: "******** ****** *******"

* ******** ******** ** LFR ***********, ******* ****** group*** ******* *********** ** ** ******* the *********. **** ***** with *** ********,****** *****, ***** *** *** of ***, *** ***** concerns ***** *** ************ on ***** *********:

***** ** * ********** [emphasis ****]:

**** *******, *** ************ Police ********* **** **** were ***** ** *** live ****** *********** *** they **** **** *** the **** *** ***** in ********** ****.Instantly, *** ********** ** ******, ****'** ******* ** *** ***** **** ***** ** **** ******* *******. But for us this is exhausting. This whole technology, this ***** ********* *** **** ****** **** *** ***** really. There's no way that a mass surveillance technology should be being used in London, a democratic city. This isn't something anyone's voted for, this isn't something anyone wants, and it *****'* **** ****. Yet again we've **** **** * ******** ****** *******. We've seen two young black boys being stopped and made late on their way to work, searched, cuffed, put in the back of a car for no reason before being let go again. This is atrocious and Parliament urgently ***** ** **** ****** ** *** **.

Final ********: **** **** ** ******

**** **** *** ********** showcased * ****** ** issues, *******:

  • ******* **********: ***** *** Axis ****** *** ***** perform **** ** ****, such ******* ***** *********** will *** ********* *** wear *******/***** **** ******* their *****. **** ** something **** ** **** technical ******** ***** **** moving *** ******* ** indoor ********.
  • ********* ********: **** *** deployment *** ****** *** early *** ** * software *****. *******, ******* prior ***********/**********, **** ******** remain * ******* ** effectiveness.
  • ****** *****: **** ** skeptical **** *** *****-*** model ******** ** *** police *** **** ********** was ***********. ***** ********** could **** ** **** errors ***** *** *****'* 400m ****-***** ******** **** not **** ** ******* use **** *** **** scenario.
  • **** *******, ************** ********: this ********** ******** ** no ******* ** *******. However, *** ****** ******** led ** *** ****-***-****** of *** ***** *** who **** ******* ** any **********, ***** ****** discrimination/racism ********.

Met ****** ********

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*** *** ****** **** IPVM **** ********* **** we ***** ***** ****** surrounding *** **********:

*** ***’* ********** ** facial *********** ********** ** 20 ******** *** ******* on ******** ***** ****** for ******* *** ******* offences, **** ** **** pose * **** ** the ******. *** ****-***** approach ** **** ******** meant **** ** *** appropriate ** **** *** plans *** **** ****** Recognition ** **** *** local *** ********* ******* accounts *** *** *** website **** * *** hour ****** ******. **** helps **** ** *** opportunity ** ****** ****** people ****** *** ****** information *** *** ****** signage ****** ******* ** the ********** **** ******* people *** **** ***** of *** **** ****** Recognition ********** ****** ******** to **** ******* **.***** ** ****** ******** in ***** ********* *** Met’s *** ** **** Facial ***********, ********* ** the ***’* *******. ** approx. **.** ****** *** operation, ***** *** **** Facial *********** ****** *** working *********, ***** *** a ************ ***** ******* the **** ******** *** the **** **** ******* given ** ********. *** handheld ****** ***** ******* the ***** ***** ** required ** *** ******* to **** * ******** on ******* ** *** to ****** **** ** individual. ***** ****, *** decision *** ***** ** stop *** **** ****** Recognition **** ** *** operation.

**** *** ******** ** about *** ***** ****** (camera ******, ****, ***) and **** ****** ***********.

**********

***** *** *** ******** highlighted ***** *** *** privacy ******** **** *********, IPVM ** ********* ** the ******* ** *** London ***'* *** ******. Without **** *******/****** ***********, the *** **** *** LFR ** ******* *******.

Comments (21)

**** *** ****** ** the **** *****-**. *** would ***** **** **** testing *** **********, ***'* want ** ****** *** variables ********* ** *** performance ** *** ****** recognition ********** ** ******** the ***** ** **** hardware *** ** ** the ****.

*** **** *****-** ****** at ****** **** ****, perimeter, *******, *** ******** installation ************, *** ** much ** ****** **** this. ********* **+ ***** have **** * *** more ***** *** ******** detail.

* **** ****'** ********* about ***** *** *******, but ** ** **** I, **** ***** ********* wouldn't **** **** ****** as *****. *** *** test ** **** *** technology ** **** ** the ********** *** ***** deployment ******* ******* ********* to **********. **** *** people ******'* ** ******** to ***** **. ***** in ** *** ************...

**, ****** ******* ************** rant ****. * **** everyone *** * ***** weekend.

**** ******** ** ** the *******:******* ****** ****** ** Image *******

******'* ** ** ****** to ***** *** ******* lower, ******* ** *** side ** *** *** just ***** ******* ****** (to *** **** *****'* heads)? * *** **** the ****** "*******" ****** was *********, *** ** seems **** ***** ********** couldn't ** **** **********. Plus, ** *** **** to ********* **** *** are *****, **** * don't *** *** ** could **** ** *********. If *** *** ******* down, ******* * ***, you ***'* *** *** sign *** *** **** won't ** ********** ** the ******. **** ***'* look **********, ******* **** may **** *** ** the **** *******.

*******' ***** **** ** camera ********** (******* **** the ***** ****** ******* they ***) **** ****** height **** *************. **** lowered *** **** ***** point ****** ** ****** 5-6'. **** **** ***** cameras **** *** ***** at ****** *'. **** Depot *** **** * similar ****** **** *** mounted **** ******* **** the **** *****. *******, when ******** * **** Depot, * *****'* **** low ******* ******* **** I ** ** *******.

*** ** **** *** governments ***** ***** ** feel **** ********** ** all **** *****’* **** that ****. *** ** perfect ********** ****** *********** works. ** *** **** world *** ** ****. Not ***** *** ** least.

** "*** ******* *****" are ******* *** **** the ****** *****'* ****? Surely * ****** ***** doesn't ******* ***** ***** is * **** *****? Governments **** ****** **** money ** ***** ** keep *******, ******* ********* is * ***** *****.. If ** ****'* *** new ********** ** ***** have ****** ******.

***** ***** ** ** doesn't ****** **** * copper ****** ***** *** identify ** **** *******, using **** ** ***** head. *** **** * camera *****'* ** *** get *********..

** *********** **** *** front ** *** ***, by *** **** *** read *** ***** (**** the ***** **** *** QR *****), ** ******* you *** ******* ***** scanned ******* *******. ** you ****, ** * 180 *** ******* *****, wouldn't **** ****** **** sort ** ******** ***** to ** *******?

*** *** ***'* ** serious ** **** *** posting ** ******* *** a ******* * ***** prior *********** *** **** of ******* ******... *** public *** *** ****** of *** ******* ***** homes ** ** ** their ****, *** **** should ** ******** **** we ** **** ** hour **/***... ***!

** **** **** ** pass *** ***** **** on *******, *** *** should **** *** ***** on *** ******** **** big *****: * **** for ***** *** ********** give ***** ******* ** signing * **** **** (like * ******** ******* agreement '* *****') ****** they *** *******, *** those *** **** **** to **** ******* ******* consent (*** **'** *** how **** ********* ********* they ******). *****'* * reason *** ** ****** ask *** ****** ***** arrested ** **** ********** their (*******) ******. ** seems *** **** *** facial *********** **** **** is ******* *******, **** under ** ************* **********.

** ** **** ** their ****** *** ******** logging *** ******* ****** data? ** ** **** were **** ****** ***** and ********* ** * database ** ***** "******* criminals"?

** *** ***** ******** is ****, **** * understand *** ******* ********. However, * ** ******* as ** *** **** would ** ********* *** facial **** **** * database. ******* *** ***** details ******* * ****, wouldn't *** ****** **** be **** ** *** a ****** **;

**** #: **** [******** DETAIL = *]

*****: ****.***

********: ***

****: **:****

** *** ****** ******** is ****, **** * could *********** **** **** and ***** **** **** van ******* ** *** camera, *** **** **** the ****** ***** **** my ****, ******* ** a ******** ** "******* criminals", ****** ** *****, and **** ** ** the **** ****. *** only **** ****** ***** be; ** ******** ** the ****** ****** * face, * ******** ****** when ********, *** * time ********** **** *** 'match = *****' ******. At *** *** ** the ***, *** **** would **** ***** ** a *** ** **** faces ****, *** * returned ******** ******* ** potential "******* *********". ** actual ****** ******* ***** be ******, *** ****** wouldn't ** ******* **** on ***** ****** ***, or ***** **** **** going.

**** ** * ******** as * ******** *****, I ***** * ***** get ** ******* **** to *** ****, **** an ******* ******** "** FINALLY *** ***! ***'** under ****** *** *** [insert ******* ***** ****]!". I ****** **** **** would **** ** ****** by ******* ** ** face, *** ****** ** ID. **** ***** ******** approach ** ********** **** in **** *** ***** was **********. ***, ** would ** ******** ** be ******* *** ** to **-*** ******* **** time *** ****** **** the ***. *** ***** hope **** *** **** would ********** *** **** enough, ********* ** **** false *********.

**** **********: * **** nothing ** ** ******* laws.

** ** **** ** their ****** *** ******** logging *** ******* ****** data? ** ** **** were **** ****** ***** and ********* ** * database ** ***** "******* criminals"?

** *** ***** ****** at *** **** *** zone, ****** ******** "****** ** ***** is *********, *** ****** will *********** *** ************* delete **** ********* ****". so ****'* ********* ** the ****** ******** *** described.

** ** **** ***** points:

** ****** ****** ******* would ** ******, *** system ******'* ** ******* tabs ** ***** ****** are, ** ***** **** were *****.

***, ** ***** ** annoying ** ** ******* for ** ** **-*** seconds **** **** *** walked **** *** ***. One ***** **** **** the **** ***** ********** get **** ******, ********* in **** ***** *********.

* ***** *** **** getting ******* *** ******** by ****** ** **** serious **** **-** ******* of **********. *********, ****** cuff ****** *** ***** them ** **** ****** releasing ****, ** ******** during **** ********** (******** this *** *** ***** on * **** *****). And ****** **** **** year, * *** *************** *********** **** ** ** walked ******* ** *** system *** ***** ** pounds ($***).

* ***** *** ******* criticisms **** ********* *** the ********* *** ***** stand ********** ** ******* unmatched **** **** ** deleted ** ***:

  • *** ** ****-**********. ** one ***** *** **** to ** ** *****.
  • ***** ** **** ** UK *********** ** **** clear *********** **** ************ govern *** ** ***.
  • **** ** ********* **** data ** ******* ***********, comparing *******'* **** ** a ********* ********** ** unreasonable ******** ** ******* on *********. **'* **** being ****** ** ***** in * ******-******. *****'* no *******/*******/***.
  • *** **** ** ***** positives, ********** *** **********, results ** ******** ****-***-******** - ***** ***** **** to ***********, **************, ***.

** ** **** ** their ****** *** ******** logging *** ******* ****** data?

**** *** *** *** I’m *********...

******* ** ****** ***** has ******** ******* *** ANPR ***** ********* **** 2 ***** ** * year **** ******* ********!!!

**** ****** ******** *** plate **** **** *****/**** of ******* **** *** over ****.

**** *** ********** ** Tony ****** ** *** UK’s ****** ************ ****** to ** *** *******, one *** **** ******* that *** **** ** will ****** ******* **** prevalent (** *** ******* previous *** ** **)

***** *** ***** ****** of *** ********* *** the ************ ***** **** almost ***** ******** *** to **** * ***'* help *** ***** **** is ****** * ****** opinion ********.

**** *** *** ***** this ** ***** *********, as ****** **** ******* out **** *** ***** this ** ***** ****** interest *** *******.

* ***** ** ******* to *** ***** *** London ********** **** *** measure *** ******* ** these ********** ***** ** criminals ******, ******* **** be **** *** ******** of ****** **** ****** recognition ** ****** *** do *** *** *** more ********* ** ** then **** ** ** the ******* ******* ****** their *******. ** **** point ****** *** **** facial *********** ******** ****** all ****** ***********.

* ***** ** ******* to *** ***** *** London ********** **** *** measure *** ******* ** these ********** ***** ** criminals ******, ******* **** be **** *** ******** of ****** **** ****** recognition ** ****** *** do *** *** *** more ********* ** ** then **** ** ** the ******* ******* ****** their *******. ** **** point ****** *** **** facial *********** ******** ****** all ****** ***********.

* *****... **’* **** the ***** ***** ****** van ***** **** ** years ***!

** **** ** ***** our *******, ***** ******** and **** ** *******, drivers ***** ***** ******** vehicles ** **** ****...

*** ** *** ******* to **** *** ** on ****!

***** ******, ** ****** recognition.... ******* ***** **** protection ******** ***** **** DPA2012 *** ****. ***** are ****** *********** ********* that ***** **** *** GDPR *********, *** **** about *** *** ****? Now *** ** ** in *** ********** ****** of ****** - *** known ** *** (******** Union ****) **** ******* are *****?**** ******** ♛ ** LinkedIn: #****** *** *** future ** #***********

** **** ****** ** professional ******** ***** ******** in ********** **** **** and ******* * ****** of ***** ****** ****.

*** ** *** **** about ****, ** ** about ***** ******, *** Legality ** ***. **** is *** ******* *** capturing ****? **** ** the ******* *** ******* stopping ******* ******** ? If * *** **** stopped, * ***** ******** make * *****, ***** i *** **** ******** by *** ***** ********* - ***** **** **** a **** *** ******* them **** ** ******* 82 *** **** *******!

* ** *** *** using ********** *** **** it *** ***** ** installed, ******* **** ******* and ********, ******* ** open ** *******.

**** ** ******* -**** 2109 ....

****** *** *** **********, glad *** ***** **** post!

**** ** ** *****, the ****** ***'* **** rec ********** ** *** covered ** *** **** or **** ** *******. It ** ******* ** the*** ** ******* ****** *********** *********.*** ** ****** **** rec ** ******** ** the ***, *** *** GDPR. *** *** *** gives ************* **** ****** for ********** ********** **** GDPR.

***** *** ****** *********** companies **** ***** **** are **** *********, *** what ***** *** *** PECR?

*** ***-*** *********** *** of **** ***, **** and *** **** ** apply. ******* * ***'* see *** **** ** relevant ** **** ***. PECR ********* *************** ****** *********, *******, etc. *******, **** *** "GDPR *********" ***** *** be ******* ***** **** the ** ********** ****'* officially *********** **** **** rec ***** ** **** terms. *** ****, *** our ****** ********* **** ********** Questioned.

*** ** *** **** about ****, ** ** about ***** ******, *** Legality ** ***. **** is *** ******* *** capturing ****? **** ** the ******* *** ******* stopping ******* ******** ? If * *** **** stopped, * ***** ******** make * *****, ***** i *** **** ******** by *** ***** ********* - ***** **** **** a **** *** ******* them **** ** ******* 82 *** **** *******!

******* **(***** ** ************) *** DSAR (**** ******* ****** *****) are **** ***********. *** as *********, *** ****** police **** *** - and *** ** ****** face *** - ** governed ** *** *** Enforcement *********, ***** ** separate **** *** **** and *****'* **** ***** mandates. ** ******** ***** wouldn't ** *** **** good ** *** ****** through * ****** *** LFR ****.

******: *** *** ******** for *** ***, ************ Cressida ****, **** **** a******* ******** ***** *** ******** defended *** ***. ****** interested ** **** ***** should ***** *** *** comments ** ***, ********** ** **:**.

****'* ******* ****** ** 5 **** ******:

*** ** **** **** current *** ********** ********* myths ***** *** ***’* use ** ***:
- *** **** ** are ***** **** ***, repeat, ***, ***** **** biometric ****.
- ***** ******** **** always **** *** ***** decisions ** ******* ** not ** ********* – Not *** *******.
- ******* **** ** it ** *** ******* crime.
- *** **** ** are ********* ** ****** not ** **** ** ethnic ****.
- **’** **** ********** open *** *********** ***** it - ***** *** our *******. *** *** is **** ******* **********.

*** ************ **** ***-******* people *******'* ** *******, especially ** *** *** of ****** *****:

******** ** * ****** of ******, * **** be *****. ** ** age ** ******* *** Instagram *** ********, ******* about ** ***** *** that ** ** ****** law-abiding ******** ******* ******* LFR *** *** ***** stored, ***** ****, **** smaller **** ** *** the ******’* ***** *********** to ** **** **** from * ***** ******* the *****.

*** ************ ******* **** on *** ***** **** the ***'* *** (***** is ***'* *******) *** no ****** ****:

** **** ***** *** some ***** ************ **** do **** ****, *** as * **** ****, ours *****’*. *********, *** only **** ** **, is **** ** ***** it ** ******** ****** to ******** * ****** women **** * ****** man.

**** *********** **** ******** Dick **** *** **** to ******* **** *** technology *** ** ''*******'' bias, *** ** ******** a ***** ****** ***, rigged **** ***** **** (and ****** *******) ******* - ** **** *** 5 ***** - ** stop *** ****** *** black ***.

*** *** ** *** need *** *** ** all **** **** (*** cost) ** ******* **** a ****** ** **** have **** **** ** comes ** ****** **** on **** *** ******.

** *** *** **** - ** **** ****** to ** **** **'* another **** ** ******* over-selling ******* ** * client ***** ********* ** not ** ****** ** it ****** **.

***** ** * ********** [emphasis ****]:

**** *******, *** ************ Police ********* **** **** were ***** ** *** live ****** *********** *** they **** **** *** the **** *** ***** in ********** ****.Instantly, *** ********** ** ******, ****'** ******* ** *** ***** **** ***** ** **** ******* *******. But for us this is exhausting. This whole technology, this ***** ********* *** **** ****** **** *** ***** really. There's no way that a mass surveillance technology should be being used in London, a democratic city. This isn't something anyone's voted for, this isn't something anyone wants, and it *****'* **** ****. Yet again we've **** **** * ******** ****** *******. We've seen two young black boys being stopped and made late on their way to work, searched, cuffed, put in the back of a car for no reason before being let go again. This is atrocious and Parliament urgently ***** ** **** ****** ** *** **.

******: ****** ** *** sc

**** ***** ** **** been *** *** ***** the **********. **** *** the ******?

*****, **** *** ** error/typo ******** **** *** draft ** * ******* the **** - *****'* no ******.

*** ****. ******!

*****'* ** ****** **** the *** ******** ***** *** ***********, showing ***** **** *******:

** *** *** ************ ******* ******* ** Stratford (**** ******)*** ******* **** ****** with *,*** ***** ****. The ****** ****** ********** this ******* ** ***** was * ***** ****, i.e. ** ******* *** to *** ********* ******. The ***'* ****** ****** Circus *** ********** ** Feb ** (***** ** did *** *****) *** 7 "*********" ****** *** 1 "********", ********* ** 1 ******.

** ***, ****'* ***** separate ****-*******, ********-********* ****** operations *** *** *** arrest.

**** ******.

** **** **** ***** NEC's ****** *********** (**** the *** ** *****) is ****** *** ** China ****** ** ****** recognition *** ****** ****** exaggerated? * ****** *** latter *** ** ********* curious.

**'* **** ** **** exactly, *** * ** think **** ***** **** rec *** ** * giant ******* *** **** signs *** ****** **** make ********* ******'* ***** more *********. ** ***** LFR ** **** **** ubiquitous *** ******, ** they ******** *** ******** better *******. ***** ****** also******************* **** *** **** cellphone ******** *** *** up ******* ** *********** buildings,.

** *** **** ****, no *** ** ************* checking *** **** *** results ******, *** *** PRC ********** *** * habit ** ******** ***** at ****-**** ******** ******** solutions.

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Last month SIA demanded that NDAA 899B "must be delayed". Now that they have...