Great Words of wisdom indeed and I agree 100%:
I would like to thank Hikua over the years. Two words: "Cha Ching$$$" That is asian for: "Making Obscene Profits from slangin cyber warheads and human rights abuse machines"
NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Congrats Top 10 IPVM Commenters Q3 2018 - Sean Nelson Wins
I made this its own post because it's an interesting look at 2 well-known Hikvision proponents (Marty and Sean).
While loyalty is respectable, loyalty in this situation, especially when making fun of human rights abuses, is imprudent, to say the least.
My question to Marty and other Hikvision proponents: Sure, you are making lots of money but don't you ever wonder how you can all make so much money off this? Hikvision dealers making far more than non-dealers. Hikvision salespeople making far more than competitor salespeople. All the while, Hikvision sells at such low prices with literally never-ending discounts. Maybe something is deeply wrong here or are you just so happy to make money off this?
That's incredibly rich, John. Coming from a country that has just put jobs and money ahead of human rights and state-sponsored assassinations by Saudi. To flip the coin - don't Americans ever wonder what the missiles they make for Saudi are used for? Trump refusing to sanction Saudi for their war crimes (other than suggesting they were a bit naughty) is tantamount to endorsing them. Ever since 9/11 we know how the Saudis are Teflon coated by the US Government - but the last couple of weeks and Trumps stated reasoning of lives being worth less than US jobs should be used as a yardstick by which to measure your China comments.
You talk about loyalty. Western manufacturers have had a level of arrogance for many years that showed absolutely no loyalty to their resellers. Customer support was poor, innovation lethargic, stock levels pitiful, through selling non-existent and overpriced. Much of that has improved significantly since they have been placed under pressure by Hikvision.
The picture you paint is of a utopian security market that Hikvision has ruined. The fact is that Hikvision has given a wake-up call to the mainstream manufacturers that it isn't ok to take your customers for granted and sit back and let the world go by while lining the pockets of shareholders.
I had commented a long time ago that as Hik improved their functionality and quality, IPVM would have less to attack them on. The theme now is xenophobic state bashing - so we can take that as a compliment that Hik have now moved forward significantly faster with their innovative products than the crowd - leaving you to join the jingoism that is all the rage at the moment - albeit blinkered.
If Hik salespeople are making far more - it's because their competitors do not pay the market rate. There isn't a mass discount issue in the UK/EMEA, so I think those comments are directed at US ADI, which is just a reflection of the US market in general.
I've always said it's horses for courses. If a product fits, I sell it. At the moment that's Avigilon, DVTel, and Illustra - but if tender lands on my desk, as it did last week that says Hikvision - then I'm going with Hikvision. In competitive tendering to M&E companies where no kit is specified - if I know or suspect someone is going with Hik/Dahua - I'm not going quote Avigilon. You may be surprised that the use of Hik isn't as binary as you think. Many integrators I know install Hik alongside CCure, ProWatch, Avigilon etc.
So it really doesn't matter how you dress it up - Hik has been good for the industry. It's amazing how others follow their design and innovation trends, and how IPVM fails to credit Hikvision with this. It sticks in your throat, we get that. But CCTV is no longer a dark science practiced by Western manufacturers where partners were only buyers and expected to be honored to do be one. Just look at the vast amount of CCTV footage being shown on everyday media to see how much Hikvision has been used. It's brought accessibility, quality, and innovation to the masses - not the elite.
To attempt to put a guilt trip on anyone using Hik is cheap. Suggesting we are making "loads" of money only shows that you have no idea how competitive tendering works or the margins achievable in OJEU open tender processes. What evidence can you provide that demonstrates that Hik dealers and distributors make more money from Hikvision than other products lines? It's a great soundbite - but baseless in fact. If anyone is making money out of Hikvision, it must surely be the Honovich household.
Suggesting we are making "loads" of money only shows that you have no idea how competitive tendering works
Sean literally said that and Marty seconded it. I am not 'suggesting' anything. I am quoting what they said. I'm catching up on things now and will bookmark this to return later but wanted to clarify that simple point of fact.
What evidence can you provide that demonstrates that Hik dealers and distributors make more money from Hikvision than other products lines?
How about testimonial evidence from the Hikuan King himself, Marty “laughing all the way to the bank” Calhoun?
I would like to thank Hikua over the years. Two words: "Cha Ching$$$" That is asian for: "Making Obscene Profits from slangin cyber warheads and human rights abuse machines"
Is Marty wrong or maybe he makes even more than obscene profits on CCure?
Clearly sarcasm and wit escape you.....
Wait a second. So your saying he’s not actually making more money from selling Hik than he would selling Brand X?
What the hell is he doing it for, then? Sell X or Y.
Just because likes spending hours every month defending them from the same allegations?
Just because he feels they are being unfairly persecuted?
He’s doing just on principle, not principal?
Okay, time out. This is not a case of the pot calling the kettle black. The citzenry of the USA at least have the option of criticizing their government for their actions and policies.... and surprise, surprise they do and OFTEN! This is far different from the forced lockstep which the Chinese government imposes upon its people. We can freely argue about our government's sins in public, in print, without fear of being censored or even whisked away to a reeducation camp or worse.
We can even participate in choosing our representatives in government and they can be from different parties! Imagine that! Look you can point as the speck of dust in our eye all you want, but China still has the plank of suppressing it's own f***ing people and a government's first obligation is to its own people.
So sure, b**** and moan about our inability to reign in our own government's actions. Blame it on apathy, ignorance, bigotry, or whatever. But if there's a state run business run by a totalitarian state that gestapos it's own people so it can't even be criticized from within, you can be f***in' assured it deserves all the citicism we can throw at it.
Disclaimer: This post may or may not reflect the views of my place of employment, but it sure as hell reflects mine (under the influence). In vino veritas motherf***er.
Struck a nerve have we?
Your argument actually suggests that with the fine democracy you describe - the US people are complicit in the US foreign policy of Islamaphobia, rendition, illegal detention and facilitating Saudi war crimes. With China your argument is that it’s just a government driven policy where the people have no day, whereas with the US it’s the will of the nation.
As IPVM lambasts China, presumably based upon the false premise of US supremacy, it’s fair that it should also be measured in the same way - and on that level the naked truth is that it has no moral high ground to judge others whatsoever.
...and on that level the naked truth is that it has no moral high ground to judge others whatsoever.
Except there are liberals and non-interventionist libertarians who, in sum, OUTNUMBER those that would support these actions and do speak up. The problem is that corporatism and imperialism are in power now and have been illegally manipulating the vote and introducing money into politics. We have the opportunity to actually cooperate to dismantle this rotten administration by getting our priorities straight and by not getting distracted by red herrings thrown at us by rabid SJWs who are just competing in the oppression Olympics.
The problem with China is that it can't ever change who's in charge (potentially not without violence) and it forces its government onto their citizenry with no real choices whatsoever. The problem in the USA is that the fractal mess of a Venn diagram of diversity in terms of interests may create reasonable majorities in important areas, but other interests almost always split the concentration of people necessary to get the right values into our administration.
The people in charge in both countries are horrid in both circumstances, but at least in the USA we have a means to fix this if we can get organized and create the right movement. In China, this isn't even possible. We're at fault, not because we support human rights infractions, but because we let influencers divide us from each other and we have been wasting the system granted to us by our founding fathers!
Dissent exists in the USA. In China, dissent leads to punishment, or worse. We might not be perfect, but we can make choices. You can not unfairly pin the values of our government on our people or any individual within this nation. Equally, we are not implying that all or even close to majority of Chinese are content in China with their own government. The most important thing is that if a voice can't exist from within its borders, then voices have to exist from the outside to speak for those who cannot speak for themselves. BTW, this does NOT mean that we do not worry about our own responsibilities within our own country to hold our government accountable. However, the ignition for the vehicle of any change begins with speech.
So are you done straw-manning or pigeon-holing us now? Also, your blatant uses of false equivalencies did not go unnoticed.
I think we are all looking forward with a lot more curiosity to your first IPVM article!
I think it would be best for all the Hik haters to proclaim their loyalty to America and absolutely never buy any product that is made in China. Not just Hikvision but ANY Chinese made product. Put up or shut-up, you buy Chinese you are fueling their economy, so STOP BUYING.
Hikvision is not a bad company, their employees are not bad people to be portrayed as second class citizens. All the political talk is quite simply 'feeble satire' in an attempt to poison a company that has brought forth quality merchandise at an 'unheard of' price point not only in the USA but across the world.
END
I'm not a Chinese hater, or major conspiracy theorist. Our company has stopped selling Hikvision and Dahua cameras for their blatant and repeated lack of cyber security. Most of our customers prefer to have their individual cameras accessible, rather than having to worry about client installs, active directory headaches, etc. That being said, the cost for us to go out and patch every few months to multiple locations across the country, was getting too expensive for us and them. So while I appreciate that some people are anti-China, I think there are a large majority of us who simply don't want to put in hardware that we can't stand behind.
It was not intended to be taken literally.... HIKUA has never sold a war head to my knowledge or a human rights abuse machine so you are taking this completely out of context....We both take a lot of criticism and put up with comments that are un-savory to say the least. Hikvision has been very good to me and Im sure Sean will agree with that, so blowing up a joking comment that was made in jest is uncalled for....
HIKUA has never sold a war head to my knowledge or a human rights abuse machine
How do you categorize Hikvision's forced facial recognition in 967 places of worship?
Marty, a serious question, what would a company have to do to get you to not do business with them despite the opportunity for large profits? Can you give a few examples of realistic things a company might do (eg: take a strong anti-US position, be a proven dumper of toxic chemicals, have stolen source code or product designs) that you would consider a reason to forego profit for principle? I am genuinely curious how deep you look at a partners overall business beyond the price/value ratio.
I think you need to be honest with yourself instead of taking a holier than thou position as some sort of patriarch for America. Every legitimate business is in business to make money (that includes IPVM by the way).
I am in this to make money, for myself and company. No argument there. But there are ways to make money on a system without selling them hardware that has a proven track record of poor security. I think even you would agree that selling Hikvision isn't the only way to make margin on a job.
I am not taking any position, I am asking you a question.
Every legitimate business is in business to make money
Correct. And I would say that truly "legitimate" businesses operate with some basic policies or guidelines in terms of what they will, or will not, do to "make money".
You tend to avoid direct questions, or try to turn things around into some sort of "you're no better than me" plea. I think you have answered my question through your avoidance.
His answer was pretty clear. If it makes him profit he does not care who it comes from, how it is made, etc.
That's pretty much the US position on Saudia at the moment, isn't it?
Who cares what the weapons are used for - its making US giants money and providing US jobs - so who cares - right?
That's pretty much the US position on Saudia at the moment, isn't it?
Who cares what the weapons are used for - its making US giants money and providing US jobs - so who cares - right?
This is a tu quoque logical fallacy aka whataboutism. No, the numerous offenses of the US both currently and historically are not good. However, that does not address the initial point nor reinforce yours. Pivoting to another point is not a valid defense in an argument.
Marty, Sean, are you unable to Cha Ching without Cha China?
I thought it would be worthwhile to post an extract from a tender issued by a UK Local Government dept. today.
I've long stated that tenders increasingly have a heavy bias toward price and decreasing bias on quality these days, so (unlike others) I'm posting evidence of this.
My question to Hik haters is simple (salesmen NOT engineers please). What equipment would you propose on an open manufacturer tender that stated this information?
The reason I exclude engineers is this is the situation salesman find themselves in everyday and yet still have deliver sales and growth to a company. Your conscience doesn't form part of the companies route to market I'm afraid and citing IPVM and the US Gov isn't going to cut the mustard with a procurement department against a solution that exceeds the specification requirements and comes in most competitively.
The tender BTW is for a small 23 camera IP system with a budget of <£50k. Nothing says to use or avoid Hikvision - so its a simple flat playing field.
NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: UK Local Government Tender: What Equipment Would You Propose On An Open Manufacturer Tender That Stated This Information?
All of the noble Hik Hater have really touched my heart in this thread and have really made me think deeply about supporting China. Therefore, I have joined forces with them, and am now a fully converted Chi-Hater.
From this point on, to show my loyalty to my cause, I am not buying anything made in China. Anything that has a component that is made in China, I am not buying. Because everyone knows that when you buy anything made in China, it fully supports their regime. Whats worse, it gives Hikvision the money to run countless sales at ADI which is a human right abuse within itself due to the mass confusion it causes on IPVM (i.e. it abuses the minds of the human hik haters).
I assume all of the other Hikua Haters have already started on this path of banning anything made in China because anything less would be hypocritical and we all know that Hikua haters are far from that.
Unfortunately this means that I will be now making my posts via American Made morse code and telegram.
I'm with you on this Sean. I'm boycotting any country that illegally kidnaps nationals, renders them through dark sites and then tortures and imprisons them in an illegal of-shore illegal detention facility without legal representation or trial. I'm also boycotting any country that actively supports and provides weapons to murderous regimes that kill innocent children. It's despicable that anyone would even think of racial profiling air travelers and banning them from Muslim countries- my god who even do that in a western democracy?
I would have done this on my iPhone - but those pesky Chinese are in there, and the keyboard - damn - even my mouse?
John - is your house Chinese free? What a beautiful peaceful, calm, ethical and wonderful place that must be......is it empty?
Oh yes - as for tonight's takeaway, I'm ditching the Chinese and going for an Indian......oh hang on....
I know that the American humour does at least extend to appreciating Monty Python - which brings into play the famous Romans sketch - just change Cleese for Trump and Romans for Chinese - enjoy!!!
John - is your house Chinese free? What a beautiful peaceful, calm, ethical and wonderful place that must be......is it empty?
Not empty, no. There are plenty of litigation threat letters from Hikvision to fill the place up. There are even some from Dahua but they are written in crayon.
The irony that China won’t even help sort the worlds crap anymore....https://phys.org/news/2018-07-trash-piles-china-door-recycling.amp
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