I'm Looking For Any Reason Or Cause To Abandon An Avigilon Platform And Convert It To Exacq

Why is it Avigilon vs. Exacq specifically? I don't understand the motivation to change something that from your description seems to be working satisfactorily and replace it with something you (at least for now) seem as functionally equivalent.

Having used both, but being more familiar with ACC, I don't view Exacq as being on the same level as Avigilon in terms of overall sophistication. I find ACC's integrated client more intuitive and more efficient when needing to make some minor config tweaks to cameras or settings, for example.

Aside from the up-front switching costs of licensing, you will incur a lot of operator training costs (directly or indirectly) as they have to figure out how to do things in Exacq, and of course some minor things will likely be different enough that they need to learn or figure out new approaches to common tasks because Exacq doesn't do things exactly the same.

I see both VMSes being owned by companies that could at some point in the future pivot their channel model to something that is disruptive to your business. I would probably be looking to compare Avigilon vs. Milestone for example if part of this is due to ownership concerns of the company.

Exacqvision is better

That's funny, however I need more than this reply. 

Pete,

If there is new project that would increase the size of the current system by over 50% then cost savings/ROI/TCO could be considered with a technology migration however what are the cost savings the vendor is stating for a rip n replace?  Those are some serious costs.

I would also judge the relationship with Avigilon and Exacq.  Look for support, warranty, new product offerings, the parent company/ownership and how they go to market in addition to features and benefits of the product.   

If the end user has a multi-site/enterprise type of a setup maybe you pick a building and install Exacq.  Take it for a test drive for 90 to 180 days and then run the costs, features and benefits.  Also this way the end user has experience with the UI and any "unknowns" can be discovered.

Good luck.  Let us know what you end up doing if you can.  

As it seems you're and end-user I have to ask, why switch if Avigilon has done well by you and it is providing what you need thru your existing integrator?

There will always be issues with any switching and there will end up being additional costs on change outside. What is to be gained for your team from scorching Earth and rebuilding on a different platform?

I've used both in the past, I haven't touched either in at least two years, but I wouldn't expect there to be value or improvement for switching from Avigilon to Exacq.

Hello Clint,

We are an end user, and have a large system by numbers and equipment. You know how sales people can come in and sell you a pitch. Saving money better compression rates, better picture quality etc. 

Well I'm not sure what savings they are offering you but the retail price of 850 enterprise licenses alone is $236,520. This is an already invested amount not including any fail-over or integration licensing. I am sure if you are buying that many you will be able to get project pricing but that invested money is gone. So without any labor$$$ or hardware$$$ you need for a change over and training on the new software$$$ over a quarter million in savings is needed just to overcome the licensing "Savings". It may be worth talking to your current integrator and an Avigilon rep to learn about some of the new analytic capabilities of their new products.  I don't have a problem changing out whole systems if there is a real problem but changing it because a salesman is good at his job doesn't seem like justification. Just my opinion so take it for what its worth.

Your correct Corey,

Thank you for the reply, what do you know about compression rates between the two systems. 

We have two customers(healthcare). Both have 150+ cameras spread over multiple sites. 

One is Exacq/Axis application. The other is Avigilon application.

If cost is not an issue, Avigilon.

I only wish we could start over with the other customer and give them Avigilon - that's how bad it has gotten. Exacq points fingers at Axis, Axis points fingers back at Exacq. We end up looking incompetent. 

Maybe I have a bad taste in my mouth due to the issues related above with Exacq/Axis. I still talk highly of Axis cameras, as they work perfectly for our other customers who AREN'T using Exacq Vision. Just my experience. 

Very helpful,

Thank you for the follow up. The cost factor is the issue with avigilon however I do believe since we have over 800 cameras it should have been discussed before now. Avigilon has a very very good customer service.. 

Just my thoughts.  

I personally would recommend not switching to Exacq. We have been with Exacq since 2009 and have personally seen the quality of support drop, the licensing costs increase, and the software remain the same for what our end-users need. I am currently trying to transition every Exacq customer I have away from the platform. I've just been burned too many times by needing a higher level of support and Tier 2 saying that we need to setup a call with Tier 3 tomorrow while I am at a remote site. I've been burned by too many issues that they couldn't explain or figure out and re-sending log file after log file that they couldn't explain what the messages inside that log mean. I've been burned by sending e-mail after e-mail with a long, delayed response or none at all. I have shared these concerns with them many times and been told (and as has been discussed on IPVM) that they know it is a problem and they are going to try to be better. Last straw for me was when I was converting a customer to their ESM and it was hard to get anyone to support the install issues we ran into.

We picked them up because we loved the app and software. Both do not work as well as they once did and the quality margin between Exacq and other manufacturers lessened. I'm moving customers over to non-perpetual license based platforms like Hanwha Wave and March Networks. Both platforms have lower costs, better support, and subjectively better purpose-built hardware.

I have not switched anyone to Exacq from Avigilon but we have switches several Exacq customers to Avigilon.  I find and customers have found that Avigilon client is cleaner, faster and just easier to use.  Customers also have complained about all the integration issues with Exacq and 3rd party cameras.  They were tired of having camera issues everytime they upgraded the software.  

I would recommend downloading a demo of Exacq and running it side by side with Avigilon connected to your Avigilon cameras.   Since you have basically all Avigilon cameras I see no advantage of switching to another VMS.  If they are telling you that you will save on bandwidth if you switch to Exacq on the Avigilon cameras I would show them where the door is.    

Is any integrator here going to admit moving customers to Avigilon to limit competition and increase stickiness. We’ll all be having a topic in a couple years where we’ll be talking about moving customers to X because of some ubiquitiois pain point of avigilon that every manufacturer has. As someone having several large enterprise systems on exacq, avigilon, Genetec, etc. I have to say there is nothing special about avigilon over exacq, but exacq does support several more camera models than Avigilon.

If the solution is to cut TCO for your 850 channels your solution is neither of the above. Go find an enterprise vms or someone that wants the business that will drop their pants on licensing. If you truly have 850 channels and are growing there are several manufacturers that would cut this to either 0 cost to 70% off msrp to pick up. 

Maybe your solution is shopping both your integrator and manufacturer to stretch your dollar if you want to go that route.

INTERESTING COMMENT. THANK YOU

I have installed and run both systems. Both have their +'s and -'s. With Avigilon you don't have the annual support costs, Exacq you do. Now you don't have to pay for Exacq support to get support at least. Avigilon is a much user friendly interface and looks very modern. Exacq's interface is user friendly but not as friendly as Avigilon. However Exacq still has a Circa 1995 to 2000 feel to it. Funny because I don't think it is even that old.

I don't understand companies not keeping the look of the interface somewhat modern. The manufacturer will say it is the engine that matters not the shiny chrome wheels. This is true but new customers sometimes don't really care as long as it looks good and works. I have had customers say that when the software looks 20 years old is it really any good anymore?

Both Exacq and Avigilon are really good VMS systems. Personally I wouldn't switch from either one to the other unless the manufacturer was going to seriously deep discount the software.  

Be sure to consider how the system informs you when something goes wrong.   Personally I really appreciate a VMS with a log file with human readable content.

The camera and storage messages are the primary ones to look for. 

Historically speaking, Avigilon has decent logs...a snip example of a stressed system dropping too many packets looks like...

2017-10-09 06:14:00 WARN : ? : RTP RX MissingPacket(s) 1851 on RtpOverUdp:51184/51185/SSRC:3593410126(d62f164e) from 192.168.18.101:50000/SSRC:3599495400(d68bf0e8) / Thread IoService.TransportRtpRx2 [logNum 27]

Their Daemon.fcp.csv files are nice system resource views as well.

I have not run Exacq in a while, so I do not know if they have a comparable messages.

WE DO HAVE THE SYSTEM SET UP WITH THESE REPORTING FEATURES. THANK YOU !

I'd suggest reaching out to your integration partner and Avigilon. Maybe there is something they can do to help alleviate the pressure felt from management? We've always found Avigilon to be willing to work with us from a support and pricing aspect. Never hurts to ask and a heck of a lot less painful than swapping out a system of that size...especially if you are happy with it's performance.

Something that might be a reason why the rep is stating it might be cheaper is that since mid year last year thru (currently march) they are offering lifetime SSA renewals.  The only catch is that it has to be paired with a physical exacqvision server purchase.  And this would also depend on whether the integrator passes that savings to you.

I will be a bit more blunt than some of the other comments on this topic, and will be much more blunt than I typically am on such things.

As someone who has been involved in selling, installing, and supporting both Avigilon and Exacq for multiple customers with, as a rough number, well over 5,000 cameras split between the two systems, I think it would be utterly asinine to even consider a move to Exacq.

If this were a discussion of a green-field installation or even a scenario where you have an existing video system and are considering whether to switch to either Avigilon or Exacq, the conversation would be very different. From an overall cost perspective, there is a potential to save some money with Exacq, but I believe those savings to be VERY minimal in the grand scheme of things. Ultimately, that is not what is happening here and you're in a scenario where you have an end-to-end Avigilon system in place already, so the conversation is very, very different.

To be more specific (and also this is the really blunt part), anyone that is telling you that Exacq is on the same level as Avigilon -- when considering an end-to-end Avigilon system vs any type of Exacq system -- is either an Exacq salesperson, someone that hasn't used Avigilon enough to know better, or an outright liar. The systems are not comparable in any way from the ease of setting up and configuring a new system to the basic analytics that come with Avigilon cameras+software to the way that firmware and software updates are managed and pushed out to cameras and NVRs to the usability and featureset of the client itself. It's just not a comparison in any world as far as I'm concerned.

I have no allegiance to either of these products and have had my hands on both of them for quite awhile. Exacq is a good product and can work very well in many scenarios, and is a fantastic option for someone with a low-level existing system that is looking to upgrade and keep cameras in place. However, when compared with an end-to-end Avigilon system, it's really not a fair comparison in any way. 

Oh, and any argument of dramatic bandwidth/storage savings between the two is utter hogwash. With even an attempt at proper configuration of an Avigilon system, the differences -- especially when weighed against the substantial advantages that any difference allows for [i.e. at least some of Avigilon's bandwidth/storage can be attributed to the metadata and storage requirements for the analytics] -- become completely and totally irrelevant to the point of being laughable.

And all of this doesn't take into account the massive potential issues you're going to have getting even a portion of the functionality (i.e. motion recording?) out of the existing Avigilon cameras on that Exacq system, but that's a whole separate discussion.

Pete are you using Avigilon analytic cameras?  Do you have Appearance Search running or planning to?  This is also something to consider as you would lose this with a switch to Exacq.

Since you have 850+ Avigilon cameras, I would not recommend to move to Exacq.

It was not long ago that Exacq removed the integration to add Avigilon cameras to their system, which they have now reversed.
Whats to stop a new feature / update that will break any existing functions ?

Stick with the end to end solution, so that WHEN you have any issues, you can get the Avigilon support that will cover both the camera and VMS.

If you move to Exacq and you have an issue, I can guarantee you will have issues with finger pointing between "its the VMS" or "its the camera"

I deal with another brand end to end solution and when a customer adds 3rd party cameras to the VMS against our recommendations, I get a fair amount of enjoyment telling them "I told u so" when things go bad, when using the same VMS / camera would have had no issue...

Yes Avigilon is expensive, but you need to find the good value in the system to explain to management why the high cost is justified.

My $0.02

You are saying : "We have 850 plus Avigilon cameras".

I'm not sure if Exacq is "native" compatible(probably not) with Avigilon range of cameras .

This will be a great issue for "smooth" switching.

I currently use around 190+ A series Exacq units, they are a very good simple platform like anything else, its easy when you get used to the functions, If you have a large system I would certainly recommend  enterprise Exacq to give you an easier administration . I cannot comment on Avigilon. 

Not sure I'd like to convert a client to a platform owned by my direct COMPETITOR - Tyco. I dropped DSC alarm panels for the same reason. I don't care how good it is...

I have worked on both systems. Each has their faults and benefits. Personally If I am not having an issue with Avigilon I would not swap it out. You have to much invested to change for no real reason. If you are looking to spend money I would look at upgrading your network. If your using 1GB switches put 10 GB in. Why break something that is working for you?

On the "compression" part, which you indicate seems to be somewhat a factor, one of the questions would be "so what?" Is the difference expected to be that much? Compression can really be a numbers game, numbers that can be fudged, and is more a factor of the camera, not the VMS.

I've found that Avigilon is the Apple of the video world--as long as you have their hardware, their servers, their license, etc, it works really well. try and integrate 3rd party cameras to their software or their cameras to another VMS, and it'll work...kind of. So as long as you're 850 cameras deep in avigilon, i'd stay with them.

I haven't done exacq in a few years but I have to echo others--if it ain't broke, don't fix it. Although i have to throw my pitch in for Mirasys--low cost buy-in, craploads of native integration +onvif for the few they don't have yet, and the support blows away anything short of a local service rep. they have branded servers and encoders, but they don't sell cameras--meaning they have to integrate or die, and you can spec the camera that's right for the application without worrying if it will play nice. (except, notably, avigilon--i can record them, but any other client-side controls aren't available).

If the systems both seem comparable in costs and performance, why would you want to change after 7 years?  Also, it's not worth the risk for the unknowns.  

I don't know a whole lot about either system but compression is a setting that can be changed isn't it? If the Excaq sales guy is saying theirs is much lower I'm guessing that means he is just setting it lower. Which could be done in Avigilon too if that's what you wanted. Just a guess. I had a lighting sales guy tell me once he could save me 50% on electricity by switching to his bulb. Well turned out he was proposing bulbs with 50% less wattage - and light output. If I wanted 50% less light I could just take out every other bulb....

i would have to agree with majority here. We sell both systems. Both have features that companies like. 

someone told them they could save money. As mentioned earlier, there are a LOT of factors that go into TCO of camera system (not just the cost of VMS and cameras). For example: for an incident, does it take 15 minutes to create a case file or does it take an hour? Can you quickly review recorded video? Do you monitor alarm/alerts? how are these configured? 

I usually look at cost vs. inconvenience - if there is a savings, is it really enough to consider the inconvenience of change? In my opinion there are 5 items to consider:

• saving a lot in annual costs
• gaining a lot in benefits / features that customer can use
• Saving time to manage security
• Saving time and headaches to manage system (support, updates, patches, etc.)
• Improve the performance of security 

NOTE: Avigilon has some great analytics and AI that can assist when setting up alarms/alert. A lot of these will assist security to actual items (not just "motion" detected). 

To be honest, Exacq is a mid-level small to medium business VMS solution. If you are planning on scaling in the future or need resilience in your system, look at a mid-price enterprise level VMS like IndigoVision. You’d be pleasantly surprised at what they can offer.

We sell both.

We have a hard time getting Exacq sales support or engineering support. Virtually 100% of the time we have to leave messages and hope for a return phone call.

Having read all the comments above, I am in agreement with the majority. A move does not make any sense.

The only move I would consider would be to a VMS that is camera agnostic. But I still doubt any cost savings would be worth the training expenses and "unknowns" that are likely to emerge during the process.

If Avigilon is working well for your team, particularly on a large installation such as yours, it seems unwise to consider moving to something to save a few $$.

I use both Exacq and Avigilon in my company. Both are very good systems and are very robust, however, i sell almost exclusively Avigilon except to customers that already have exacq or for very few other reason. Exacq tech support is horrendous! I have spend countless hours in their hold queue to get to tier 1 support only to sit again to get to someone who knows what i am even talking about. Avigilon support is top notch!

Let me start with the fact that I am not a fan of Avigilon for a myriad of reasons. I design and sell almost exclusively Milestone and Aimetis. 

That said, I cannot find any logical reason to switch from Avigilon if it serves you well. If you came to me and said you wanted to switch after going 800+ cameras down the road, I would have to ethically ask you why, as it does not seem to be in your best interest. 

The grass often appears greener on the other side of the fence... when you get to the other side of the fence, the grass is the same colour, tastes the same but you have the expended the effort and have bumps and scrapes from climbing the fence!

iirc Exacq is an annual license?

Avigilon is per software stream, that is it is supported with free updates until that version is sunset. (ACC5 is sunset later this year but ACC6 is only just getting going!). There is plenty of scope for maintaining your current install base without additional licensing for the foreseeable future.

look at the total cost of ownership over say a 5 year period and I think you’ll find that Avigilon will be competitive and Exacq may not actually be half the price as they have alluded!

If you really do have to reduce your outlay, then more economical cameras can be added to the system (at the expense of features like hdsm and analytics)

I cannot think of anything that would make one abandon Avigilon for Exacq, or any other VMS for that matter. Full disclosure, we service Exacq but have not actively sold it for 4 years. Ditto for Salient, Ocularis, and Milestone. ACC is that much better, in our opinion.

^that. If I had a system that wasn't locked into Avigilon already, i wouldn't go there. come time to update licensing and such.. hey let's talk about ANY OTHER VMS.