I Lost My Axis Silver Partner Status Today

This is an interesting topic. Thanks to both who have chimed in so far.

1 and 2, thanks for sharing.

It's not surprising. This is the flip side of Is It Time For Me To Start Selling Hikvision?

Thoughts on a few of the specific points raised:

"When Axis brought in their M series I was excited because I could compete in a lower market. I review that exact thought today and laugh at myself. When you compare Axis' M series to many of the other manufacturer value series today, at their current price point, that line of products doesn't even make sense in the market."

Yes, excellent observation. 3+ years ago, when the M series started, it was indeed very competitive. The problem is that Axis has stagnated at the entry level. Though they have brought in more mid-tier offerings, the pure entry level remains very dated, with the M3004 and M3005, even after price cuts, still not close to the price or performance of Hikvision / Dahua.

"I never suggest Axis for anything but those niche applications because I find there are less expensive options that are comparable or better than many of the current Axis lines out there today."

Agreed. Nobody does niche like Axis. If you near to add a multi-imager to a PTZ, Axis. If you need an IP horn, Axis. If you need an anti-suicide camera, Axis. If you need a regular dome, bullet, box, harder to justify Axis.

"The reason: the comparable Axis model was twice the cost of the competitors. In the SMB, light commercial space they just can't be sold anymore..."

Agreed. It's tough. Axis surely can demand a premium over Chinese products, but the premium is way, way too big for most basic users to justify.

And their financials reflect the problems Axis is having.

Axis has to know this. They are a smart company. Every new trade show season I think, "Ok, this is it. Axis is going to do something about getting beat up in the low end by Hikvision / Dahua," and then they don't. It's ~3 weeks to their major fall announcements so we will know then if they are going to do anything this year. Not sure.

Anybody here remember the history of American TV manufacturers? Killed by Japanese.
The same is happening in CCTV, in my opinion

I think Axis is evolving into the Bang and Olufsen of physical security cameras (good stuff, Nordic, expensive, increasingly quirky designs, only half-connected to western marketing style, weird but less scary than Vikings to those of us of English descent.)

Ah, you took the red pill. It's the 21st century. You should be selling multiple brands. Your trading partner should have be adults about that fact of life. Selling territories were charming when my father was a travelling salesman in the 1940's.

It sounds like you are trying to remember to take care of your customers. Good for you.

So sad but this is where we are heading.

Same scenerio on my team. Recently went to training, where there were only 3 in class. Financially this does not make sense, wont pay the overhead cost

Great products, just only in the high end marketplace. Problem with low end markets, you cannot make soft changes in programming to make corrections. Just plug and play

I like the cameras adjustment s I can make in the field. HV, Acti make great plug & Play but not for customization like axis, arecont, panasonic, vicon

Does it bother anyone that these are Chinese companies? I have no issues with them cornering the market on plastic toys, but I do care about the effect they have on this industry. Forget about being the world #1 in CCTV sales. What if their business strategy is to drive Western companies out of the surveillance business by dropping the bottom out of the market (drywall, steel, precious metal ores, etc). What happens when the Western companies stop making surveillance cameras and our national security is dependent upon sourcing product from a Communist country? What happened to doing business with companies who share a common business ethic and humanitarian vision? Why are all of these posts about speeds, feeds and price?

I won't sell Chinese cameras because I think their business ethics are detrimental to our National security and I won't be part of it. If my customer wants to save 20% on the hardware acquisition cost, then they can buy them from one of you guys.

If my client wants products made in the USA, he will gladly pay the premium. However, I don't want to come in the door with only a high price in hand (Avigilon, Arecont). I want my first option to be a great value and go from there.

On a side note, when do we reclassify Axis as an Asian brand? I don't see it as fitting to call them a western brand anymore. They are owned by Japanese and have been made in China for years, right?

Very interesting article. Now I am an end user, and I am not in the small business. But I can say that when we began our transition from analog to IP in 2012, we asked around. At that time we had two integrators. One large national one and a small regional one. Both said they would sell us whatever we wanted, however they gave us the info mentioned here and still widely known.

Axis started the IP revolution. They are the leader and they make very good products and have a wide array of options.

We also talked to several of our colleagues and they all seemed to use a wide array of manufactures. One in particular beat us to the IP transition by two years. His issue was he tried out three or four different manufactures till he settled on one. His advice was find one you like and stick with it. He hated the fact he had several different brands. It was way too much to manage and learn.

Being a creature of habit I am the same way. I truly believe if it isn’t broken don’t try and fix it.

At that time we knew a guy who was a regional sales manager for Axis. We had known him for years from his time as a business development manager at a large national integrator. During those years he was continually solicit ting our business and never could make the sale because we were happy with the integrators we had.

Anyway, we invited him and Axis over for a discussion and demo. At the time we liked their product line and their willingness to answer our questions and educate us on the products and on IP camera technology.

Over the last three years I can say we have developed a great relationship with Axis. We partnered with them to develop their product line to include cameras they simply did not have within their product line at the time. When they have new products up and coming they come out and demo them for me and they have on more than one occasion allowed me to test cameras and provide feedback to them on our use and or deployment.

They have even worked with us to develop a portfolio of unique camera mounting brackets for some products specific to my industry that simple were not readily available on the market.

When I have new projects coming up that have unique problems to resolve they have been willing to come out and help find the best solution to fit my specific need at the time.

One at least one occasion I had a criminal act occurring that was specific to my industry and my C-suite wanted us to think outside the box and find any and all solutions that could be reviewed to determine what lese we could do to try and resolve. Again I reached to Axis. They came to the table not only with their own products but they brought to the table two of their integration partners and gave us solutions that were exactly what we were looking for. In the end we ended up going another route however the point being is they brought a viable option.

I have to say I am sure there are cheaper cameras on the market however from my perspective, the ROI for me is invaluable from the ability with one phone call get their regional sales guy on phone and have him tell me sure I can be there next week and I will bring another guy and we will show you what we have and what we can do. Even going to the point for me to say we can use this camera, but in order to deploy we will need a custom bracket and they go out and do it.

This is huge for me. I don’t want a local tech doing some custom in the field bracket that tomorrow when and if I need a second and the first guy is no longer employed here is no longer around and the new guy has no knowledge of what was done or how to do it.

My Axis P1344 was made in Thailand. Not exactly China, but still Asian if my Google Earth app is correct.

I think that it IS possible for one company to succeed long-term with a high-end, quality based market strategy and premium pricing. And maintain decent mind/market share.

But maybe only one company.

And there are at least five Axis, Bosch, Panasonic, Sony, Avigilon...

Extremely interesting thread..

A few things:

let's dropthe "Good Enough" condescension. Hik and Dah are often on a par with the best out there and regularly at alesser price. Even their entry level regularly match the output of clebrated brands mid to high tier products and to repeat: At a much lesser price. More over Reliability is less and less an issue .. So from the consumer or , especially, the integrator, What to not LIKE? I understand the flag-waving although I do not subscribe to it: We are living in a Golbal market and those ideas as passe as the Hayes Modem.

I am not sure what we integrators should make of this. We will not make money on the cameras anymore of that I am certain. I also believe the days of >$300 VMSlicenses are not far from over... SO where do we make money: Services? Install? integration? The future is as too often murky...

It’s downright laughable to say that ”…Hik and Dah are often on a par with the best out there…”. I’m not certain how you are qualifying such remarks but you might want to take some time to read through the test results above, such as the 2015 WDR shootout.

As Hik was recently involved in the largest security breach / vulnerability issue in the history of IP Surveillance, I’ve got a hard time placing any faith in them as a manufacturer. Revenue is important, but so is maintaining our reputation.

Just my 2 cents.

If you are only concerned about image quality and price, then there is nothing wrong with these options. If you are comparing the capabilities of the camera as a whole, then JH would need to do some destructive testing to ensure that the cameras also hold up to the Ingress Protection standards as well as the impact testing for vandal resisitance. That could be a costly endeavor, but I bet the less costly options do not truly meet the standards. So, when your $500 outdoor camera fills up with water, good luck getting it replaced as a warranty item.

John - I was not accusing any manufacturer of falsifying anything. I did not name any manufacturers nor did I cite any examples.

"I don't understand how you can lay down a serious charge of Hikvision defrauding their customers on IP and IK ratings without some proof or even some trail of anecdotical problems to support this?"

I appreciate your need to sensationalize the commentary that we so willingly post to your forum, but my comment was not intended to be an accusation, nor is it based on fact. There was no need to "fill in the blanks" with my post. I enjoy reading your inflamatory replies to other people's posts, but I guess not when I am the target.

The net bottom line is: Your team has been more than competent in pointing out other deficiencies with camera performance specifications. So, are you ready to proof-test the other specifications that also ? Proof test them all... Sweedish, Chinese, Korean, American, German, who cares? The point is, all of us have experienced water rings in the dome bubbles of cameras that were supposedly IP66 or IP67. This is another opportunity for your team to de-bunk the marketing that is inherent in the camera datasheets.

I think many integrators find it difficult to understand IP cameras (and video management) is commoditizing much faster than anticipated. As it transitions, prices will fall and a new pricing structure takes effect. While quality image in a camera 2-3 years ago may have cost $1,000, the same is not true today. The old "price equals quality" is true to a point, but our industry as a whole is changing at a rapid pace and with it, the pricing structure.

Analog video was different. It was the standard for many years and while there were changes to VMS platforms, the basis of technology was for the most part, static. This is why Pelco could charge $3,000 for a PTZ camera for 10+ years. Pricing in the analog world didn't really begin to morph until the introduction of IP video.

To provide a little more understanding in a different technology, the first iPod launched in 2001, included a 5GB harddrive, black and white screen, physical buttons for menu navigation, and sold for $400. Today, that device doesn't have a place in the market, but something close to it typically sells for $10-$20. Why? Well, because I can do all those things and much, much more from my phone for the same price. Companies innovated and prices for the base technology decreased.

This is where I think Axis has lacked the last couple years. They gave us an IP horn, a door phone, and VMS hardware I (and many integrators) don't want or need. They let other companies play catch up and it's showing now in their lack of sales. They still feel their cameras deserve premium pricing, but the market has dictated otherwise. Innovation in core camera technology products will boost their sales, not niche accessories.

I haven't sold a Bosch camera in years either. They have outstanding picture quality, efficient bandwidth management and a 3-year warranty. I guess by that logic, I'm politically biased toward Germany? I don't sell Avigilon either, but those reasons have nothing to do with what Country their in.

We all have to pick and choose what we sell, install and support. I buy from trusted partners, not from datasheets and catalogs.

Larger Companys should not get so complacent with thier position.

HV has done a great job at putting forth a great product at a low cost.

When I can buy 3mpxl cameras at $100.00 compared to a $1000.00 Name Brand , who do you think I am going to choose.

I will 80% of the time forgo the name, bells, whistles, and use the other products.

Walmart has proven this concept. and the CCTV market place should take note before thier overhead puts them in the poorhouse.

You have to sell product or you cannot sustain overhead.

"You have to sell product or you cannot sustain overhead"

If that is your winning business model, I hope you are prepared to compete against WalMart and Amazon for your customers. If your customers share your same mentality, they won't be buying from you...

I guess it all comes down to how your prospects determine value. If it’s price point alone, that’s a different customer than one who perhaps looks at TCO. It's a big market and there is no single answer.