Subscriber Discussion

Choosing An IP Camera System: Should I Be Able To Convince My Customers That They Should Be Spending $10,000 On An 8-Channel System Instead Of $3,000?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 02, 2018

I am a very small shop that installs security camera systems, usually under 16 cameras per job.  I am not thrilled about purchasing re branded "Chinese" cameras and NVRs, but when I look at the alternatives (Axis or Avigilon), the price is just too expensive.  As an example, I can get a "decent" 4K bullet cam for around $250 per camera.  It is my understanding that the non-Chinese alternative would be at least 4 times the price.  I have no doubt, based on the excellent reviews conducted by IPVM, that the Axis or Avigilon cameras are superior. Unfortunately my customers seem to think the Chinese made cameras are, "good enough" for the price.  

Should I be able to convince my customers that they should be spending $10,000 on an 8-channel system instead of $3,000?  For almost all my customers, 4 times the price is the end of the discussion. Perhaps it is just the types of customers I have.  Am I missing something?  

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David Delepine
Oct 02, 2018
Brivo • IPVMU Certified

I pretty sure, certain in fact, that there are reasonably priced non-Chinese alternatives. I am looking at some cams from Tawain, more expensive but not 4 times as much. 4K bullets and domes for under $400...

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 02, 2018

I get Chinese 4k cameras at $130. I wouldn't recommend "friends" to pay more than $200 for a fixed camera. For $400 you can get a Dahua-made IR POE PTZ cam w/ 25x optical zoom and a Starvis sensor.

 

The quality has gone through the roof while the price has gone down considerably.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 06, 2018
IPVM

I get Chinese 4k cameras at $130.

They may stream at 4K but I doubt you are getting 4K quality at that price, e.g., IR, WDR and even lensing will almost certainly combine to deliver much reduced visible quality than 4K.

I'd be happy to be proven wrong, though, any specific 4K model you would recommend for $130?

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 09, 2018

Mr. Honovich, 4k offerings from Dahua OEMs like Amcrest seem pretty capable for the price.

I doubt a home owner would -at a glance- see the difference between the image on the Amcrest vs Samsung/Axis. They will however notice the difference in price as it's hard to ignore an extra 0.

I'm scared to recommend anything as you guys will probably pick me apart, but you can get Amcrest 4k POE cameras with IR for $145 without a dealer account. They have discounts all the time and you can (likely) get 10% off just by calling them up or talking with one of their chat-a-ma-bobs when you order online.

https://amcrest.com/amcrest-ultrahd-4k-8mp-bullet-poe-ip-camera-security-3840x2160-131ft-nightvision-2-8mm-lens-ip67-weatherproof-microsd-recording-black-ip8m-2496eb.html

https://www.amazon.com/Amcrest-3840x2160-NightVision-Weatherproof-IP8M-2496EB/dp/B07C7W91YR/ref=sr_1_24?s=photo&ie=UTF8&qid=1538604291&sr=1-24&keywords=poe+camera#customerReviews

The images on these are solid; I can't imagine you'd be disappointed unless you expect perfect IR illumination or need 30 FPS @ 4k and didn't read the specs.

It's unfortunate the software isn't more intuitive for normal tasks like recalling video, but I haven't had a problem yet with hardware. Software = comprehensive, dated, and a labyrinth only David Bowie could navigate. Value = yippee ki-yay.

What device or line of devices would you guys say compares to the Amcrest ip8m-2496eb?

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 09, 2018
IPVM

First, thanks for the detailed and informative response. I appreciate.

Secondly, I genuinely think this is a good topic for a future test - 'Low Cost 4K Camera Shootout'.

My hypothesis is that the daytime image quality delivered with a ~$150 4K camera is going to be only slightly better than a 1080p camera, the WDR and low-light quality will be worse and the bandwidth consumption will be way higher. But that's why we test things out.

I'd like to see it against Hikvision's newest 4MP camera (that won our shootout), the Axis Companion Mini Eye (~$100), etc. Testing it against quality low cost, lower resolution cameras will reveal whether the 4K is actually more than marketing.

I've filed this in our internal issue queue and Ethan will later open up a discussion for comments on entrants.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 10, 2018

Good to go. I'd be keenly interested in that 4K comparison. Thanks for the input!

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #11
Oct 17, 2018

A comparison is made to a 1080P resolution, which sounds correct.  Consider adding tests that show the difference in the 'details' that should show up or not.

 

RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

Interested in this as well. Not sure why a small shop selling 16 camera or less systems needs a 4k camera thought. What is the benefit of this over a 2mp especially in a small business. 4K eats a lot of hard drive space and doesn't seen very practical for something outside of large crowd recording, monitoring high risk machinery, etc. 4K sounds sexy to customers but in my opinion is not practical.

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DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

the difference is not that big in a stream bandwidth, but significant in a picture quality (dpi). The cost is just 30-40% more.

HDD's so big and cheap these days, so there's no point to use 2MP anymore. Maybe just to improve a night picture a bit.

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RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

I'm not so sure on that. 4K uses 3-5x more stream bandwidth than 1080p and 3-5x more storage. See below from another IPVM article:

  • CIF 5FPS Office: 50 KB/s
  • 720P 10FPS Conference Room: 0.5 Mb/s
  • 720P 30FPS Intersection: 4 Mb/s
  • 1080P 10FPS Conference Room: 2 Mb/s
  • 1080P 30FPS IR On Intersection: 8 Mb/s
  • 5MP 15FPs Panoramic Office: 4.5 Mb/s
  • 4K 30FPS Intersection: 7 Mb/s
  • 4K 10 FPS Night Outdoors: 32 Mb/s

 

Using a good 2-5mp varifocal cam is more practical than a 4K camera imho. Additionally how many customer's have monitors that can display 4K?

4K should be used for large open environments; warehouses, production environments, campus environments, etc.

As mentioned earlier Axis Camera Companion is great and being limited to Axis cameras is not terrible. They are some of the best long lasting cameras I've used over the past 10+ years.

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

I'm trying to use 8MP cameras for all the new projects. Just checked a couple of cameras:

1. Turret with a fixed lens, 8mpx (3840*2160), 20 fps, daytime, office (people walk all the time), medium quantization, H.265. Bandwidth around 2 mbps.

2. PTZ 8mpx (4096*2160), 22 fps, daytime, outdoor (street, industrial site), medium, H.264+. 5-6 mbps.

2a. Same PTZ 8mpx (4096*2160), 15 fps, daytime, outdoor (spinning mode), medium, H.264+. 10 mbps.

New 2018 8mpx cameras consume pretty much the same bandwidth as 3-4 years old H.264 2-4 mpx ones. But I use 6TB+ HDD's today instead of 2-4TB I had in 2014. So retention time even increased for a modern system with a better picture quality.

 

And talking about TV's and monitors. I use only 4k almost for 2 years now. But it's not even for that purpose. With better ppi, you can have more details and it's very important when it's about the investigations.

RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

I plugged these numbers into BCDVideo camera calculator. I know these always spit out higher numbers than they actual are but the difference isn't too crazy.

1. 15mbps

2. 10mbps

3. 17mbps

 

I used a few more calculators and they are spitting out similar numbers. I'm having a hard time figuring out how your numbers are so much lower.

In reply to Sean, yes 4K does look better but is it worth it for the price? A good 5MP camera with a good lens can cover a parking lot and under certain conditions still grab LP info. I've used it myself and can confirm the quality is good enough for investigation and convictions.

@John has some great articles and tests on this site regarding some of the items in this thread. The numbers in these articles, test shots and camera shootouts are on-point. I look forward to the cheap v expensive 4K camera shootout.

 

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

I don't use the calculators. I use Ubiquiti managed switches as an access level equipment, so I just pulled the stat data directly from the ethernet ports. Real life vs virtual numbers :)

RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 22, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

That's like reading the gas gauge after the tank is empty. How do you estimate storage needs before you install?

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RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around a $200 4K camera.

JN
John Nino
Jul 07, 2019

It’s probably 4K at 5 fps 

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

I do the lab tests, read online reviews. That gives you a better idea compared to all those calculators. And the storage was never the most important requirement for my projects. Usually, I make a decision about the need and confirm it with the customer. I don't do military bases with their strict policies.

U
Undisclosed #15
Oct 22, 2018

Calculator estimations are good for take-offs but following up with live data as Dennis Ruban has mentioned is a good practice. Let's say you are a small growing business with your first 100 camera installations under your belt, if you have access to the network switch statistics, tweaking, managing adding to that customer base you then should have by now developed a deep insight into camera bandwidth and storage needs.

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Sean Nelson
Oct 22, 2018
Nelly's Security

Most HDD calculators are bananas and based off of old compression algorithms. A big difference when using the efficient h.265 compression that is used on most 4K cameras today.

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RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

Which is why I used BCDVideo, you are able to change the compression type and change many other options. Estimated is always higher than actual which is a good thing.

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Sean Nelson
Oct 22, 2018
Nelly's Security

i have never used anything over 8 Mbps on any camera. With 4K, i use 6Mbps at most but most regularly knock it down to 4Mpbs. The image quality looks great. 

I would suggest that you get a sub $200 4K camera and test this for yourself. You will be pleasantly surprised. Never trust calculators, they are usually way to extremely conservative. 

MM
Michael Miller
Oct 22, 2018

Sean, what is going on in the FOV of the camera when you're seeing 4Mbps max bandwidth on a 4K camera? 

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Sean Nelson
Oct 22, 2018
Nelly's Security

4K looks better. Its the same reason why your 4K HDTV content looks better than 1080p HDTV content. Will 1080p be fine and adequate? Sure! But 4K looks even better!!

Also, alot of folks are saying that bandwidth is wayyyy more on 4K Cameras than 2MP. Its not true. While they do use more bandwidth, its not enough to turn a user away from buying them. You can get away with 6Mbps per cam at 15 FPS at 4K just fine and still have a great image with h.265.

 

 

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 02, 2018

You are missing nothing. Sub 3k systems are within reach of middle America and name brand systems are not. Although they are considered cheap or "value" brands, they shouldn't even be compared to Axis and the like. Dahua type manufacturers do something Axis simply can not; put a solid 24/7 recording system in the hands of normal people.

 

For $2800 I will install/integrate/patch & paint:

4 x 4k POE cameras

2 x 2k WIFI cameras

1 x 8ch POE NVR w/ 1 x 6TB HD

6 x 128GB MicroSD backup cards

 

I'm betting we will see a lot more people wanting these systems in their house and small business.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Oct 08, 2018

I like how you casually made that 24/7 instead of motion based. Seems someone else has noticed the motion flaws.

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JH
John Honovich
Oct 06, 2018
IPVM

#1, for low cost, on the Axis side, consider the ~$100 Axis HD camera and their Companion line. It's going to be fairly closer to Dahua / Hikvision bought through authorized distribution and will better overall quality. However, it's downside is that it's proprietary (only Axis cameras / recorder).

The more general Chinese alternative for low cost is Hanwha.

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Clint Hays
Oct 07, 2018

I'd suggest exploring Korean products like Hanwha or IDIS.

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SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 07, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Sometimes you just need to walk away. When you sell that system for say $3K you most likely will spend at least $1000 in service calls in the first year. Trust me I get it. It's hard to walk away from a sale but sometimes you really should. Maybe you need to find different customers. 

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U
Undisclosed #2
Oct 09, 2018

Maybe it's the inner War Dog in me but I'll never walk away from a sale, unless it's illegal. If fedbizopps solicits a contract to arm Congolese rebels with machetes, I'll assume it's moral enough for Uncle Sam and should be moral enough for me. 

When should you walk away from a sale, out of curiosity? That's a tutorial I've never read.

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Shannon Davis
Oct 09, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I have walked away from several sales over the years. One it is a product so didn’t sell or want to sell. Two it just didn’t make sense what the customer was trying to do. Three I knew I would lose money on the project and it would be more trouble than it’s worth. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Oct 16, 2018

I just walked away from a sale as well.

Another integrator seemed to get the job done well for the most part before me, but failed to deliver on functionality promised to the customer so the integrator left at which point the customer had me come by and take a look.

Upon arrival the aforementioned functionality was not achievable in a reliable manner due to a design flaw (a very long cable run down a very long driveway).

I told the customer I was unable to think of a solution that would reliably function 24/7/365 and in return I was told that the problem was most assuredly solvable and that others had promised as much. At that point the customer was politely dropped like a bowling ball off an overpass as I do not sell systems that do not work reliably. 

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Greg Levorchick
Oct 16, 2018

There may be other issues besides just a long run but if the long run is the main problem, have you considered or used Veracity products.  We've used them and they have been reliable and their pre-sale and post-sale support is very good.

http://veracityglobal.com/

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Clint Hays
Oct 16, 2018

Veracity makes good products that I've used as well. There are a lot of solid options out there now for long range connectivity over different wiring mediums

RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 16, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

For long distances down roads or driveways, I much prefer using IP cams and wireless infrastructure. (Not to be confused with wireless cameras.) It's very solid, can go up to 15km affordably, and is cheaper than trenching copper or fiber.

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Mark Palka
Oct 16, 2018
IPVMU Certified

UI #10 as an alternative to walking away maybe you could suggest the following; tell the customer that you sell products which you deem solid, and you are familiar with low end products and their issues, and further will supply the customer with the lower end product but you will refuse to sell it - rather you would view the sale as the customer buying it not you selling it. You will honor all warranties as provided under the same terms as from where you bought it from. 

This keeps you honest and keeps the customer in front of you everyone who says they walk away needs to understand the actual cost of making a sales presentation. The customer could turn out to be more receptive to a better quality in the future and may be even refer you business but for sure will pay the costs of that presentation.  

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Oct 07, 2018

We sell Savvytech/Dahua OEM 99% of the time. There is no way we could keep the margins we do if we went with something else. I also doubt we could be competitive as we are a small company with high overhead since we are building for the future by bringing on an office manager, senior tech, dumping tons into marketing etc.

 

I really do not feel bad about it. My clients could not care less about cyber security, and their needs are basic. Record video to look at later. I have talked to numerous people and they just shrug their shoulder and say not a big deal. I can't afford to walk away. I will make it clear we are not a low price leader. We make sure we include enough to cover costs, overhead, profit, future warranty calls, etc.

 

With that being said, we are going to start evaluating other brands because we need to have a plan B in case the hammer drops on the ban/sanctions. We also want to get into bigger jobs using true VMS, etc but we had to crawl before we could walk...

 

 

My advice, give them both options, let them decide.

 

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UE
Undisclosed End User #5
Oct 09, 2018

Run for away from this integrator who says "I really do not feel bad about it. My clients could not care less about cyber security, and their needs are basic." 

I hope you read the clauses and contracts very carefully with anyone you have executed an agreement with, if a breach were to occur it could cost you the business.  Is it worth it to chase a few dollars? 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Oct 10, 2018

You should know that you are the exception as an end user of being knowledgeable. The majority of end users have no clue of any of the technical details of a camera system. They just want 100MP resolution and 1000' of night vision.... Trying to explain pixels/night vision is like explaining calculus to a 5-year-old. They do not care. They watch too much TV. So trying to explain cyber security and why they should add 30% to the project, just isn't going to work. 

 

You should understand not every client is an enterprise client. There are plenty of clients with very simple networks. We also work with HOAs where the ONLY network, is the camera network. Try convincing them of cybersecurity risks.

It is easy to sit on your high horse and say don't use Hikua. You don't have a business to keep open, employees and their families to worry about, etc.

 

Have we explained the risks? Yes

Has the customer decided? Yes

Does our installation contract cover cybersecurity? Yes

Are we going to walk away from these deals? Absolutely not

Do I feel bad? Nope

 

 

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RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 15, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

I make a living convincing them of the security risks. Maybe you need a better sales approach.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Oct 16, 2018

So I guess the millions of Hikua cameras that are sold every year by integrators and OEMs are sold by crappy salespeople?

 

You can't make someone buy a Mercedes when they have a Ford budget.

 

For some, it's Hikua or nothing.

 

 

NOTICE: This comment has been moved to its own discussion: Are The Millions Of Hikua Cameras Sold Every Year By Integrators And OEMs Sold By Crappy Salespeople?

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Tom Sharples
Oct 08, 2018

I also run a small custom integration shop and use almost exclusively Mobotix and Axis cameras. We focus on high-end industrial and commercial (and the occasional wealthy residential) clients, who are much more concerned with durability and consistent hassle-free operation than initial purchase cost or the latest wiz-bang feature sets. The Chinese stuff now has very respectable image quality, but they crap out in a year or three, while the Mobotix and Axis cams easily last a decade or more, in my experience.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Oct 09, 2018

I would love to see any data that backs up that the chinese stuff craps out in year 1-3.  I am not defending it, I just don't believe they crap out. They have software issues no doubt though.

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Sean Nelson
Oct 09, 2018
Nelly's Security

They dont crap out hardly at all. If they did, you wouldnt see many USA distributors stocking them for as long as they have. Even if the manufacturer warrants them, any RMA is still costly. You ahve to take into account the return shipping from your customer. Then the shipping costs it takes to ship back to the manufacturer is added into the equation. Bottom line, if they crapped out on a regular basis, this would put distributors under in no time.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Oct 09, 2018

Hey Sean. I think you are picking the wrong fight. UI6 said he wants to see the data of this because he doesn't believe they could be crapping out like that. 

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Sean Nelson
Oct 09, 2018
Nelly's Security

I will have to find my pie chart.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Oct 09, 2018

Thats why I would love to see any data backing the original claim.  I tend to agree, no issues on hardware.

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Mark Palka
Oct 15, 2018
IPVMU Certified

In 3 years Mobotix and Axis will each have newer versions that will make these ones obsolete. No one is building things to last you have to view cameras like smart phones and computer and budget for 3 years and the only way to do that is offer the lower cost ones  

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Tom Sharples
Oct 15, 2018

Whether really long life matters depends entirely on your customer base. For example, we make these systems for Ford to use on their heavy production cranes.
Ford Mexico
Ford is used to buying machinery that lasts nearly forever, and won't buy a $250,000 machine tool that uses cheap security cameras as part of that tool's critical infrastructure. In fact even the original Axis outdoor cabinets weren't rugged enough for them,so we designed and built the custom cabinets you see in the pic to house Axis 1357 cams. We also build oil-field wireless monitoring cams for use at remote pump settings. Customers like these want ruggedness and design stability that lets them order the same thing over and over. They don't care about the latest feature sets and wiz-bang functionality.

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Mark Palka
Oct 16, 2018
IPVMU Certified

absolutely we are the same page the only time a low cost 8 camera system comes up is with customers who want a down and dirty deal   

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #14
Oct 22, 2018

Would be interesting to see a camera 10 years old that has relative quality to the cameras being produced 10 years later....

RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

Check out the articles on the site from several years ago. There will be pics so you can compare an older axis model such as the 200 series to and M30 series today. The results may surprise you.

Avatar
Sean Nelson
Oct 09, 2018
Nelly's Security

If you have to ask this question, then you aren't convinced that they are $7000 better than the $3000 alternative. And your customers surely wont be convinced either.

And to be honest, you and your customers are right, they are not $7000 better. 

Once you start quoting $10k 8 camera systems, be prepared to lose the job to an industry colleague who is quoting the equipment you used to sell for $3000.

Just tellin it like it is....

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 09, 2018

You mean $3000 + 25% right? 

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Kyle Folger
Oct 09, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I've done residential with 6 cameras with wireless link to a shed for $5,000. For $4,000 I gave the option of a Hikvision NVR. The only difference between the quotes was using Spectrum software. They went with Spectrum software which has worked very well and I can easily manage the system remotely. I don't mind using Chinese cameras, but I simply can't stand their software. I was providing a Lenovo Server and add my own hard drives. We've now switched to Dell for cost. Most machines get RAID 1 256GB SSD drives with a surveillance drive for storage.

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RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 15, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

Probably not the best place for this discussion, but why RAID 1? RAID 1 is pretty much pointless in a production system.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Oct 10, 2018

Hi

There is no doubt that there is a strong resentment against the Chinese manufacturers... That some of their practices are beyond questionable ... is true. We need however to separate facts from sentiments. <=$200 for a solid 4k Camera from Hikua is pretty standard fare. I will spare you from URLs...

For a residential solution Hikua NVR will take care of that as well for <=$500 ...Now add up your cables, labor cost and profits and I don't see how you can beat the quality and reliability of HiKua with Axis of Avigilon or any Higher End. True HiKua software are far from great . It seems to me that many if not all SMB and Residential needs are likely to be met with what Hik ( don't know much about Dahua to be honest) NVR plus Client software is offering .

Good luck to you if you can find many customers willing to pay 10K for such. If such customers were to once glance what their peers are getting for <=$3000 everything included, using Hikua, this glance may likely induce buyers-remorse and impede greatly the chances of having return-customers and sales...

 

P.S. We Have installed thousand of Hik cameras and dozens of NVRs ... after more than 4 years they are churning along ...  churning along happily too. Dismissing the real quality of their offering can hurt. The price to quality ratio of Hikua is extremely high. Ethics can and should be questioned ...

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Oct 11, 2018

I recently bid an upgrade job to a customer. Currently have Hik cameras and NVRs. They have a handful of sites, and poor integration between them. The iVMS software just isn't cutting it. Let them take my Exacq system for a test drive for a few weeks and they fell in love. Quoted the job to upgrade the NVRs using Exacq. Customer waffled and couldn't seem to make a decision. Dropped by their new facility recently, and guess what, more Hik cameras and another Hik NVR. Decision was all about price, and instead of asking me to quote a Hik system for their new facility, they simply assumed I would be too expensive.

 

Moral of the story, give options so you don't put yourself in a box. There's a customer for every piece of equipment on the market, you just need to play matchmaker.

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RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 15, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

It can also be argued that offering options induces analysis paralysis. When a customer sees options (that they typically don't understand), it gives them a false sense that you have more control over price than you probably have. Then they begin to dicker on price. They also begin to question your ability to tell them what they need. After all, why would you offer them a cheaper option if they really needed the more expensive one. Point being--it makes you look bad.

Instead, offer them a single quote that reflects what they actually need, a system that you believe in and will stand behind, and then sell them on the merits of that system. If you have done your job selling it, they will be convinced that they need the system and that it represents a value to them at its current cost. Selling 101: if the perceived value outweighs the cost, the customer will always buy if they have the budget. And most customers have more budget than they let on. It just depends what they are willing to spend it on. I make sure that is me.

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RF
Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

You have to sell to the customer. If this is a 4-8 camera install you cant do Exacq, that's simply too expensive. I would push Exacq, Milestone, Gentec, etc unless we are going up to 16 cameras.

 

Multiple options will work but it has to be presented to the right type of customer. Call it budget option v. performance option. Customers always think they need more than they actually need. As a salesperson you should inject your experience. I always ask what type of detail they want. If they start talking about CSI-esque scenarios its your job to bring them back down to reality lol.

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

I think Milestone has a free version for up to 8 cameras. I used it two years ago. You can combine the Milestone server with other services (file storage, torrent-loader, HTPC services, ...) so the residential customer will get a good and cheap solutions. But I'd still use Hik/Dahua for the cameras.

For commercial, I'd go with Hikcentral as ivms is a garbage.

KW
Kris W
Oct 15, 2018

Have 2 offerings for your clients.

We use Avigilon for higher end applications and Luma for cost effective applications.

Sometimes we bid both and let the client choose.

Avigilon software is far superior and if you need Analytics then you go Avigilon. 

 

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RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 15, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

I'm curious which Luma options you are using. I just priced a Luma system for a customer this week and it was anything but cost effective.

KW
Kris W
Oct 16, 2018

We use their NVR and 4mp Fixed lens Bullets mostly.  In our case it is usually about 20% less than Avigilon.

It is a far more inferior product but sometimes clients just care about the $

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Mark Palka
Oct 15, 2018
IPVMU Certified

when you are selling quality against price there are a couple of factors to consider

  1- you need to explain the differences hiring a salesperson would work but that takes time and money and that adds to the cost.

  2- in each case selling low cost or high cost will not change the fact that in each case the camera is obsolete in about the same time frame, what is sold today at a high cost will be available in a year or so a the low cost 

my suggestion is be upfront with the customer even in price disclosures tell him you add a fee for warranty etc. charge him labor at full price and do a cost plus on equipment and materials and provide a written handout with everything they need to know.

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JL
Joe LoRe
Oct 15, 2018

We install a lot of Hikvision for the same reason that you mentioned, homeowners and small biz generally won't or can't spend on higher end cams.  However when using a higher end camera a 2mp camera with larger/better image sensor will many times out perform some cheap 4k camera....especially in anything but perfect light conditions.  Also if you demo a real PC software for them as opposed from some offered by Chinese manufactures that can sell it often.  Plus may save money on hard drive space to help offset cost of cameras.  I am continually disappointed when I install these higher megapixel cameras from Hik.  I've actually been using lower MP cameras like the 3mp DS-2CD2332FWD-I Darkfighters as opposed to 5mp and 4k.

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Greg Levorchick
Oct 16, 2018

Maybe it's our client base or the circle of word-of-mouth referrals we have become associated with but generally the Chinese systems are a non-issue after we present & demo our Mobotix/Axis/Bosch offering(s).  We spend a fair amount of time up-front doing demos and side-by-side comparisons and nearly every time, the client makes their own mind up and chooses the much higher priced system.  These demos also help alleviate after-the-sale/install questions or misunderstandings of video systems operational functionality (IE:  Hollywood/TV expectations).  They can see the performance of the systems ahead of time in their own environment using their own devices.  I disagree that customers don't care about quality built products and cyber-security - At least the ones we work with, both residential and commercial do.  The build quality, operational stability and reliability of the system is a key component of their considerations.

In our experiences when we've used the lower cost systems there is inevitably one component that fails within 1-3 years and then getting a replacement is nearly impossible because at this low price point, the products are constantly being changed as the manufacturers chase & move between component suppliers in the never ending effort to reduce & maintain a low cost.  And another big challenge is the inconsistent and poorly supported software/ user interface.  We do walk away or turn over business where we feel a client is simply low-price cost conscious.  It's just not worth it in the long run and if you part ways professionally, often they will return.

We actually just removed/upgraded a Chinese system with a client who came back to us after having it installed 3-years ago.  They came back to us in frustration and literally gave us carte blanche to get them to where they wanted to be. 

Are there issues with even the high end manufacturers we use, sure.  But overall, they are minimal and at least are known issues that get worked out.  For us and our clients, consistency, stability, reliability and the availability of on-going support is well worth the extra investment. 

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Ed Vergara
Oct 16, 2018

Have you tried looking at Hanwha?  Used to be Samsung ... we've found these cameras to be on par with Western brands.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12
Oct 22, 2018

I see a recurring theme of assuming customers are uneducated and couldn't care less about quality as being a good reason to supply the cheapest product so you can still make money.  I doubt both your integrity and the ability to educate your customers so those that want the best can buy the best.  I have build my technology business from $1M to $260M over 46 years not by being the "cheapest" but by being responsive to the needs of customers and promoting investments that meet ROI over the long term not just today and next week.  Cheap is seldom least expensive and you will likely lose the race to the bottom of being the cheapest by going out of business and leaving your customers with a mess.  Good luck --- you will need it.  @cameraman_com

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Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

"For almost all my customers, 4 times the price is the end of the discussion"

why are you even asking? Let the government waste taxpayers money on Axis and other expensive stuff. You customers are mostly residential and the small businesses, as I understand, so they use the money wisely. Keep going with Hik/Dahua. Just pay more attention to cybersecurity. The good idea would be to invest some time in researching the firewall/VPN solutions and setup a simple one (based on ER-X, for example) that you can use for all the customers. You will end up with a good quality CCTV system secured by the not expensive Ubiquiti router.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #13
Oct 22, 2018

May not be the answer you're looking for, but why are you selling them 4K cameras?  Are they utilizing 4k monitors and live viewing these streams?  I've sold in this small market myself in the past, we never sold over 2MP for these types of situations.  We never found that they needed that much camera.  I'm sure you could find an Axis/Avigilon system very cost effective if you were in that image range.  

As a side note, Hanwha hasn't raced to the bottom, but they do have higher megapixel cameras in for cheaper price than some others.

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Undisclosed #15
Oct 22, 2018

All systems do not need to be 4K resolution, it's nice but not practical for most applications. You are in the right place to do the research and build your sales model out for customers in all the budget ranges you are inquiring about.

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 22, 2018

that's what people said about 1080p 5 years ago and about HD-cameras 10 years ago.

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Undisclosed #15
Oct 22, 2018

So....just go with max resolution everywhere as your futuristic sales tactic? 

 

To customer 01....

Salesrep456: Sir, good news and some bad news.

Salesrep456: Bad news, we just fired our systems engineer.

Salesrep456: Good news is we got you the best video resolution money can buy, believe me when I say this but in 5 years people will be upgrading their systems while you, well you won't have to because we are preparing for that right now. Using my theory of "history repeats itself, your money will be well spent", our engineer once stated that complex interests require diverse integrations and we simply  really did not know what the hell he was talking about. Rest assured we are good to go, now if you can sign along this line right here...

 

 

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Robert Fuller
Oct 22, 2018

1080p and even 720p are more than adequate for most deployments. 4K is overkill.

 

There is something off with the bandwidth numbers, those cameras cannot have those numbers in 8mp, especially the PTZ on the guard tour. They must not be streaming in 8mp...

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Sean Nelson
Oct 23, 2018
Nelly's Security

Its not necessarily overkill at all. Matter of fact, it can sometimes provide more prosecutable evidence. Sure, its overkill sometimes, like when you are viewing a small areas like a porch, 1080p will be fine and you probably would not see any more benefit by going 4k here. Do they even make 720p ip cameras anymore? at any rate, when you want great detail in a wide area, this is where 4K prevails. This is a small test we did comparing 1080p, 4MP, and 4K. This is on a small 8.5x11 sheet of paper that is only about 10' away using a 4mm lens:

1080p image

4mp image

4k image

Also, again, I recommend that you get a newer 4k camera and test the bandwidth performance yourself. I can tell by reading what you have wrote that you have not tested this for yourself. 

Also, again, yeah 1080p might be adequate most of the time. But 4K looks better, period. It depends on what your client wants. Watching Avatar is adequate on a 1080p HDTV, but looks better on a 4K HDTV. 

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Robert Fuller
Oct 23, 2018

Lol of course they make 720p cameras still and they are extremely popular, especially with cloud-based video recording. I can tell by reading your responses especially equating CCTV to home television you are stuck on whats "sexy" and not practical. I can also tell you have never been on the consumer side and actually had to comb through hours of video looking for something. I can also tell you have never managed large scaled CCTV systems. 4K may be great for 1 or 2 cameras but the bottom line is (articles on this site support it) 4K uses 3-5x the bandwidth and storage as a 1080p camera. If your tests produce anything different you are not streaming in full 4K.

 

Those are great test shots, but how practical is it that you need to read a sign on a window for your everyday customer? I can tell you from experience I have caught LP info from a vehicle at 75+ yards away using a 5mp camera with a 2mm and a 4-10mm lens. At some instances the vehicle was moving as well. I highly doubt a $200 4K camera would be able to compensate for the motion.

 

I highly recommend you check out the articles and educational material on this site. There are many shootouts and test shots that will show you how to pair the correct lens, compression settings, resolution, etc to get all you can out of a 1080p+ cameras...4K is not practical all things considered. Also please check out the camera calculator here, it is very helpful for giving customer an expected image. 

 

Another point about 4K, yes it may be wide angle and you can capture so much more. Now you have one point of failure, if that camera goes down you have no other way of viewing your area.

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John Honovich
Oct 23, 2018
IPVM

We'll be doing a new round of 4K tests soon and will include contrasts to 1080p / 4MP, etc. Related: Low Cost 4K Camera Shootout - What Should We Include?

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Sean Nelson
Oct 23, 2018
Nelly's Security

Lol of course they make 720p cameras still and they are extremely popular, especially with cloud-based video recording.

Are we talking about professional security cameras or web cam Amazon specials?

 I have caught LP info from a vehicle at 75+ yards away using a 5mp camera with a 2mm

That is 225' away. i would totally love to see proof of this.

Another point about 4K, yes it may be wide angle and you can capture so much more. Now you have one point of failure, if that camera goes down you have no other way of viewing your area.

HA!?!?  The same would go for any camera in any scenario. Or are you proposing to put up (4) 2MP cameras in place of (1) 4K camera for fail safe purposes? If so, is that practical?

Could you let us know what specific 4K cameras you have experience with? Also, what bandwidth and framerate are your favorite 2MP cameras set to on average for a typical scene?

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Robert Fuller
Oct 23, 2018

Professional cameras made by reputable manufacturers such as Axis, American Dynamics, Bosch, Samsung, etc. Cisco's new cloud platform, Maraki (sp?) is actually based on 1 & 2mp cameras. Are you familiar with cloud recording? I am going to bet you use cat6 for all installations as well?

 

I will need to fire up an old hard drive, these shots will be from about 5 years ago. They were taken using Axis cameras, I believe they were the P33 and Q series. Full 3 or 5mp resolution set to 15fps and high quality h.264. I believe it was a Theia lens as well.

 

No I am not proposing that at all. I am simply saying if you are using 1 4K camera for a very large area you have one point of failure. I would suggest overlapping views 3mp-5mp cameras dialed in to areas of interest and settings dialed in to compensate for motion blur, and to optimize bandwidth and storage while not sacrificing quality. There is a great article on this site detailing resolution v compression, please check it out.

 

2mp was an example but sure. Lets take a 2mp camera at a higher quality h.264 compression. Lets say its in a hallway or a small common area, I will probably set it at 7fps at 1080p resolution, maybe 10 but there isn't much of a difference between those. If you are doing anything more than 15-20 you are wasting your customers storage and bandwidth. I believe you only need 25fps to count money, casinos may have 25-30 set on the card tables. Using the aforementioned settings you would have clear views of people at varying distances.

 

I get it, you want to show customers test shots of 4K cameras reading a parking ticket from 200 feet away. That's fine and if that's your sales model and your successful than more power to you. But if you are asking questions about if 1mp or 2mp cameras still exist I don't think we can have a productive conversation. Having said that I am going to step away for now because we can do this back and forth all day. I've been involved in large scale IP CCTV systems for over 10 years; 70k seat sporting venues, universities, airports, military facilities, small business, etc. I've seen the numbers and built the systems.

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Sean Nelson
Oct 23, 2018
Nelly's Security

I never said 2MP cameras dont exist. I did however say "do they even make 720p IP cameras anymore?" which I think is a valid question. I do acknowledge and totally agree there is still a time and place for 2MP obviously. I also agree with you that sometimes overlapping cameras are better than just one camera. One camera cannot peek around corners and see different angles. However, I am saying that 4K cameras do look better than 2MP cameras, im sure you can agree with me on this, and some clients want the best, regardless if it is indeed overkill.

However you are stating that 4K cameras are mostly always overkill and they use 5 times the bandwidth that a 2MP camera uses. Both statements are wrong for the most part. There are many times where a 4K camera will clearly outperform a 1080p camera, and the storage factor is mostly a moot point now with h.265 compression and hard drive costs not much of a factor as they used to be.

The reason why i was going to ask you what your frame rate and bit rate on your 2MP cameras, is because I was going to show you a similar shot with a 4K camera under the same settings because with all due respect, its clear you havent used any of the new 4K cameras so I was going to show you so you could see for yourself. 

DR
Dennis Ruban
Oct 23, 2018

I just want to put some bright moments from your messages together:

4K may be great for 1 or 2 cameras but the bottom line is (articles on this site support it) 4K uses 3-5x the bandwidth and storage as a 1080p camera. If your tests produce anything different you are not streaming in full 4K.

not true. I have tens and hundreds of cameras on every site. 2 years ago those were mostly 4mpx, now 8 mpx. No issues, just great picture.

Also please check out the camera calculator here

You keep comparing someone else's virtual calculations with the real-life tests.

Another point about 4K, yes it may be wide angle and you can capture so much more. Now you have one point of failure, if that camera goes down you have no other way of viewing your area.

"I highly recommend you check out the articles and educational material" about preventive maintenance and network monitoring systems. Especially when you do the large projects. You should hire a network administrator if you have a lack of expertise in that area.

Cisco's new cloud platform, Maraki (sp?) is actually based on 1 & 2mp cameras. Are you familiar with cloud recording?

mEraki is a low-cost solution. Cisco bought that company to get into residential and SOHO markets. 

I am going to bet you use cat6 for all installations as well?

Some people think Cat5e works for 100 mpbs only (even that's an overkill for one camera, and your PoE port is usually 100 mpbs anyway), and for 1Gbps you need Cat6. I heard about people who think that 4k consumes 3-5 more bandwidth compared to 1080p. They all need some education.

Lets take a 2mp camera at a higher quality h.264 compression. Lets say its in a hallway or a small common area, I will probably set it at 7fps at 1080p resolution, maybe 10 but there isn't much of a difference between those. If you are doing anything more than 15-20 you are wasting your customers storage and bandwidth.

I'll check my calendar. Am I back to 2010? 7 fps, H.264, OMG. Higher quality (quantization level?) - now I understand why you have issues with the bandwidth.

 I've been involved in large scale IP CCTV systems for over 10 years; 70k seat sporting venues, universities, airports, military facilities, small business, etc.

I had a funny project manager before. He was like 60+ years old, tonnes of outdated and irrelevant experience, not enough actual knowledge about modern technologies. But they kept him on the big projects despite the constant issues we had. It's all about the sales team at the end of the day, not your technical skills.

Actually, this discussion reminded me that retired alarm specialist with hundred acronyms-designations, who tried to sell his boards here.

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Robert Fuller
Oct 23, 2018

Meraki is not for residential. I just managed a 600 camera deployment for this system using the customer's existing Cisco network backbone. It is not low cost by any means, especially long-term compared to housing servers onsite.

I have no systems that I have access to at this point to provide snapshots on. I have used multiple different network monitoring tools, the cameras themselves and looked at the NVR statistics as well. So instead of giving my opinion I was providing a reference to multiple different calculators, yes they are inflated a bit but give you a baseline.

I have zero issues with bandwidth. Most VMS and camera manufacturer's just started supporting h.265 within the last 1-2 years. What is wrong with 7fps? For 90% of applications that will catch everything you need. Have you seen side by side comparisons between different fps settings? There isn't much of a different between 7-12. If you think there is only one setting for compression please see this article, very informative: https://ipvm.com/reports/video-quality

Ah yes, sorry my terminology was off for "quantization." I guess everything I said up to that point was thrown out because I'm using an older term, glad you were able to pick up what I meant though.

Thank you for assuming my age and "dated" experience, you couldn't be farther off in your assessment.

Like I said to the commenter earlier. If your business model is to sell overkill because the "picture is better" and "it looks better" than more power to you. Let me ask you, do you apply the same logic when you build NVR's or workstations? Do you load it up with the max amount of RAM, high-end video cards, etc or do you give them what they actually need? How about a car, "you need this V8 because it sounds great, great pickup and it really throws you back in your seat" I've been an avid follower of this site for years and have even contributed articles to this site. My business is great and I'm sure yours is as well. I'm just not in the business of selling customer's something they do not need. Never had any complaints, especially with very large deployments where I designed the entire system including the network. 4K is great for large venue crowd monitoring, you can really zoom in to see who started the fight or who threw trash on the turf.

I'm stepping away from this as well because all we are doing is going in circles.

 

MM
Michael Miller
Oct 23, 2018

Meraki is not for residential. I just managed a 600 camera deployment for this system using the customer's existing Cisco network backbone. It is not low cost by any means, especially long-term compared to housing servers onsite.

Was this a single site for Meraki?   We have been seeing schools hard spec Meraki and I just can't see how this solution is a good fit for an enterprise customer unless they have 4 cameras at 200 locations.  Limited cameras, limited resolution,  no integration, very expensive cameras, single camera exporting/searching, and if you don't pay the fees your cameras stop working. 

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Robert Fuller
Oct 23, 2018

It was a single site with multiple buildings. Yes, I tried to talk them out of it but once we sat down and went over the numbers and how they wish to manage it then it made a bit more sense. Cisco has an "in" due to their network stronghold. They tried this about 10 years ago and failed miserably.

They are a technology school with one of the better networks I have come across. We utilized their existing Cisco switches throughout the campus, we can plug the cameras directly into the switch and then off to the cloud it goes. No need for extra bridge hardware or onsite storage. The cameras have some storage built in for network drops.

They were paying close to $250k/year just in server maintenance. They were running OnGuard for video and access but the integration part was not being utilized too much and it wasn't a selling point for them. Once you factor in license costs, software upgrades, etc it just made sense for them. If a NAS went down they would lose multiple cameras across campus. They went with a redundant server route but the cost of that and all of the licensing was too much. From the intial purchase of the server and NAS hardware they were approaching the 5-6 year mark...a lot of the equipment (mainly the Hitachti hard drives and controllers) would need to be replaced anyway because the maintenance plan would no longer cover it.

Yes, once you stop paying...no more video. That was made very clear to them multiple times and they were ok with it. This was almost a year ago so they have 300 cameras going in now and 300 next year....I'm curious how they will feel in 5 years. Only time will tell.

MM
Michael Miller
Oct 23, 2018

If I had to use that system to search and export video every day I would chew my arm off.  Meraki has there pitch down good and customers are buying it but they are losing out on many important features and only gaining cloud management for the camera. 

I ordered a Meraki camera MV12 to test and I was shocked at how clunky/slow they are to use and how much bandwidth they use.  You can only search and export one camera at a time and you have to wait for the cloud to process the video before you can even download the video.   One 3min video took like 15 min to process and download. Imagine if you had an event that happened over 20-30 cameras which with a 600 camera system is more then likely to happen.  

The outdoor camera option is limited to a dome and 720P video which is crazy that someone is paying $1499 for an outdoor camera (Plus yearly fees) that is limited to 720P in 2018. 

With Meraki, you are paying for an obsolete, proprietary solution which stops working if you don't pay your yearly fees.  SMH

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Rob Dunham
Oct 24, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

Cisco acquired Meraki as a budget line. Linksys is their consumer line, Meraki is their entry level to medium business line, and Cisco remains their enterprise offering. Cisco uses premise-based management while Meraki offers cloud-based management.

To say that Meraki is not for residential is not intirely correct. It's the only choice from the Cisco lines when you want to include management and is a frequent choice for many AV integrators who use the cloud based management to provide remote services.

RD
Rob Dunham
Oct 22, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

Most people won't spend money on a between that will actually handle 4k.

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Michael Cain
Oct 23, 2018
IPVMU Certified

In my professional opinion, its more about ROI and longevity. Obviously you have to meet the requirements of the implementation (MP, Framerate, retention, etc) but its the difference between a design that will run well for a couple years and one that will run just like new for 7, allow for portability and expansion and easily integrate with the things that they dont know they want yet. Most of the time the cheaper systems are limited in scope and expansion. Ease of future upgrades is another long term const consideration, as is management and upkeep of the crappy system over the more streamlined and automated enterprise level gear (i.e. lenovo / HPE / DELL server class hardware). 

JL
Joe LoRe
Jul 07, 2019

For smaller jobs my most commonly used camera is the hikvision DS-2CD2345FWD 4mp turret with starlight. Recently installed 13 hikvision 4k vandal domes ds-2cd2185 with 4k tv and was unimpressed compared to the 4mp i normally use

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