Subscriber Discussion

How Does RFID In A Keyfob Know When Its Inside/Outside Of A Car?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 18, 2018

How intelligent is the RFID in a car keyfob?...

So I'm riding in my wife's 2015 Nissan Murano to run a few errands.  She's driving.  It has an intelligent key fob that allows the doors to lock/unlock and the start button to start the car hands free when it's in range like a pocket or purse. That part I get. 

After one stop for me to go in  a store while she waits in the car, when I get back in the car, she realizes she didn't know where the key fob was.   We start looking around the console and floorboard, and then she says "I know what to do" and proceeds to grab her purse and get out of the car and shut the door.  I then hear her hit the lock button, but nothing happened and she gets back in and says "It's in the car, because the fob won't allow you to lock it in the car."  Sure enough, it turned out she had put the keyfob in the pocket of the raincoat she was wearing earlier and she later removed it when it quit raining and threw in the back seat. 

I'm mulling this phenomena over in my Access Control Professional mind and I can't figure it out.  How would the RF proximity sensors in the car differentiate between the fob being outside the door or inside the car?

 

How do it know?

U
Undisclosed #2
Jun 18, 2018
IPVMU Certified

How would the RF proximity sensors in the car differentiate between the fob being outside the door or inside the car?

There is a big piece of steel that the signal has to get thru from the outside.  Wouldn’t that attenuation be enough?

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 18, 2018

I had that thought as well, but I think it's more than that.  For example, my wife carries her purse on her shoulder which would put it at the height of the window, and thus not blocked by the steel in the door.  

U
Undisclosed #2
Jun 18, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Answer number two:

Maybe it also looks for the presence of a passive RFID return signal from the FOB, which is unlikely to be detected from outside.

 

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U
Undisclosed #2
Jun 19, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Also, it’s pretty clear that there is at least some passive RFID in my Range Rover fob since you can bring a fob with a dead battery near the start button to start.

Does your vehicle allow a dead remote to work this way?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Jun 19, 2018

My VW Passat does this.  I think it's also the technology behind the key in my VW CC, which looks like a key fob, but you need to actually insert the key in a slot on the dash.

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Josh Hendricks
Jun 18, 2018
Milestone Systems

I have a similar car and key fob. But in the case of my car, I don't think it "knows" whether the key is inside or outside of the car. It is only present, or not present.

If the key fob is present, the car will unlock the moment my thumb touches a sensor on one of the door handles. So technically I could lock the key in the car, but it's just going to unlock the moment I touch the handle.

It's also possible to start the car with the key outside of the car. I forget exactly what happens if you try to drive off without the key - I'll have to test it. I scared myself once when I drove out to a remote location to fly my drone. When I was ready to head home, I couldn't start the car. I thought the key was in the center console but it had been in my wife's purse which I had tossed in the back seat. Apparently it was out of range. Had I not discovered this, I would have been stuck in a canyon with no signal and very little likelihood of hitch hiking out of there.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 18, 2018

Yeah, it will also alarm if you walk away from the car with it running and the keyfob is in your pocket.  This happens fairly frequently as she usually has the keyfob in her purse and needs to make a quick pit stop at a gas station while I wait in the car. 

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 18, 2018

Also, she (wife) just informed me of another scenario that happened to her.  She had the keyfob in her hand and the doors were locked.  She hit the lift gate button on her remote (key fob) to load some items.  She laid the keyfob on the cargo floorboard while loading the items, and unthinking hit the interior close button on the liftgate when she was done, thus locking the keyfob inside the car, and a long way from the drivers seat.  To her pleasant surprise, the exterior liftgate button worked allowing her to retreive the fob.  

 

Perhaps multiple sensors for that to happen?

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Josh Hendricks
Jun 19, 2018
Milestone Systems

There are sensors at the front doors and the hatchback on my car. If you leave the car with the key in hand while it's running, it will honk twice unless you hold the key up to the door frame while you're closing it.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Jun 19, 2018

Mine does that too.  I almost locked my keys in my laptop bag - couldn't figure out why the trunk wouldn't stay closed.

U
Undisclosed #5
Jun 19, 2018

First time I drove my Civic home, I couldn't lock the car - turns out I left the second key fob in a bag in the trunk!

I can start the car if the key is in a bag in the rear passenger foot well.  Haven't tried the trunk yet.

I also noticed if my fob is in my left pocket when I approach the driver door from back to front (as in my left side was never exposed to the driver door) I cannot simply slide my hand into the car door to unlock it.  I have to turn my hips to face the door and then it unlocks.  There has to be multiple NFC or RFID in and out for these things to work.

 

U
Undisclosed #3
Jun 18, 2018

Perhaps this tool can help you run some experiments?

Just a Pair of These $11 Radio Gadgets Can Steal A Car

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Jun 18, 2018

Nice, but I'll just wait for HIKvision to release theirs.....

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Brian Karas
Jun 19, 2018
Pelican Zero

There are multiple antennas for the fob. Depending on the vehicle, at least one in/near each of the front doors.  The system can detect the approximate fob location based on timings of the signal hitting the multiple antennas.  It doesn't have to be accurate down to the last inch, but it is does have to be pretty close to within a few inches.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Jun 19, 2018
IPVMU Certified

The system can detect the approximate fob location based on timings of the signal hitting the multiple antennas.

Like a mini-GPS, but in reverse?

CK
Carl Kristoffersen
Jun 19, 2018

The Nissans have an antenna in the center console and each of the exterior door handles and that helps if differentiate whether the fob is inside or outside the car.

And now I don't touch the wife's fob anymore, I use the spare if need be.  We don't need a repeat of that situation.

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Avatar
Jon Dillabaugh
Jun 20, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

We rented a 2018 Chevy Malibu on a recent trip and it had the fob and push to start. It also had a button on the exterior door handles that would lock all of the doors as long as the keyfob was outside the car. Expectedly (to me anyways), my S/O would always bump that button closing the door after exiting the car. The problem is that the hotel we were staying at only had valet and I simply left the fob in the cup holder. The car would honk twice every time she hit the button, indicating that it refused to lock the fob inside the car. It was a handy way of locking the car, as long as you remembered to take the fob with you. 

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RD
Rob Dunham
Jun 26, 2018
Tailored IT Solutions

The fob, or proximity key as it's known, has a radio pulse generator that sends out a signal that is received by several antennas in the car body. The secret is that there are several antennas. By comparing the signal level at each antenna, the computer is able to triangulate the position of the key.

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