Subscriber Discussion

Sales Exercise #1: Prospect's IT Department Know-It-All Wants To DIY, What To Do?

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

Potential Customer: Chemical Lab.

Project: General retrofit from an existing coax system to IP system needed, with some expansion.

Challenge: IT Department has a hotshot, wizkid, Googler, know-it-all who is trying to shop you and propose the project can be done in-house.

What is your response?

Community comments may include additional challenges and other monkey wrenches thrown in to tickle our brains. Roleplay/dialogue is also an option. Draw from experience.

I encourage other exercises to be posted. Make it a nice looking format. I just thought of this on the fly. Let's have fun with this and train/stay frosty.

This is also a fun way to relive sales horror stories!

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U
Undisclosed #1
Aug 17, 2017

 

"Challenge: IT Department has a hotshot, wizkid, Googler, know-it-all who is trying to shop you and propose the project can be done in house."

I would agree with wizkid and tell him that it could be done in house.

Then I would sign my proposal with a price guaranteed for 18 months - 2 years and tell him that, based on your professional experience, this is about the average time that it takes for the pain caused by inferior equipment and installations to become too much of a burden on IT wizkids who choose to do this in house.

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Michael Silva
Aug 17, 2017
Silva Consultants

Ask the IT Department how well it would work if one of the departments that they support (Human Resources for example) decided to go off and do a computer upgrade project on their own. One of the HR guys builds gaming computers at home and is certain that he can upgrade all the computers in HR for far less money than the IT Department is quoting.

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Sean Nelson
Aug 17, 2017
Nelly's Security

Are you asking from an integrator's perspective or from a distributor's perspective?

 

Here is my general attitude when dealing with this sort of thing:

"Feel free to shop me, but here is what we do better than most other companies and why you may be compelled to pay a little more than what you find elsewhere."


Im also okay with price matching as long as its from a company that has somewhat the same service level offerings that we have which mainly involves warranty and tech support. For example, we get asked to price match Amazon all the time and we wont do it. We cant and dont want to compete with a Chinese re-seller who is making a dollar profit and has 0 warranty and tech support.

Be willing to lose business if the prospect cannot find enough value in what your offering other than price. 

 

 

 

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

This was more of an integrator question. We as distributors wouldn't normally be selling direct to the end-user in this case.

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Kevin Nadai
Aug 17, 2017

Be willing to lose business if the prospect cannot find enough value in what [you're] offering other than price.

 

What you said right there -- solid gold.

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

My version of the counter (note: chemical lab) [assuming I'm working for the integrator]:

"We are licensed and insured, which is very important for liability purposes. Our products and labor come with a 3 year warranty that will not be honored and supported in similar fashion online.

We have experience running large scale retrofit projects on time and on budget and we know what not to miss, especially when it comes to the regulations for your industry and how to meet them. For example, there may be places you need corrosion-proof cameras. Also, with our experience, we would have fewer wasted materials and you would not end up with more time wasted on returns or unexpected shortages. We can handle the hassle for you.

We also know how to stage and select the cameras efficiently for more effective coverage based on precise angulation and field of view. We also have more experience with motion detection settings and other triggers to minimize missed events or false alarms. We also understand bitrates, network isolation, and storage relationships to avoid congesting your existing network or underestimating the amount of storage necessary to achieve the coverage you want."

Three-pronged attack: administrative concerns, experience, and technical prowess.

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U
Undisclosed
Aug 30, 2017

You might be a packet whisperer but you're no pixel whisperer and when we need the video to work we will care that the cameras were deployed properly.  Nobody is doubting your ability to use a web browser to get camera prices off of amazon.com.  How are you with pixels on target?  And do you have a safety harness to use in the bucket truck you're going to have to rent?

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U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 30, 2017
IPVMU Certified

...the bucket truck you're going to have to rent?  

Found this one on Amazon Prime.  Cheaper than that damn safety harness!

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Mike Dotson
Aug 30, 2017
Formerly of Seneca • IPVMU Certified

Just had to link this video on bucket trucks...Wiz does the bucket truck by himself

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 30, 2017

You might be a packet whisperer but you're no pixel whisperer and when we need the video to work we will care that the cameras were deployed properly. Nobody is doubting your ability to use a web browser to get camera prices off of amazon.com. How are you with pixels on target? And do you have a safety harness to use in the bucket truck you're going to have to rent?

"None of these cameras will need a lift and I have a ladder. I already installed several cameras at work/home and I got the video just fine, it looks good to me. So what are you doing that I can't do?"

 

U
Undisclosed
Aug 30, 2017

If you can get the insurance folks to accept "I got the video just fine, it looks good to me" then hey, have a good time.  See you on shodan.  (Disclaimer: this attitude works much better in a town where integrators haven't been recently caught using default Axis credentials.)

 

 

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Brian Karas
Aug 17, 2017
IPVM

IT Department has a hotshot, wizkid, Googler, know-it-all who is trying to shop you and propose the project can be done in-house.

If you (as the integrator) are selling the right gear, my first response would be: "where/how do you plan to purchase the equipment"?

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

I agree with your response, but $20.00 that the first thing out of his mouth would be something like this.

WizKids Retort: "Can't I just buy the equipment from Amazon?"

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Brian Karas
Aug 17, 2017
IPVM

"Can't I just buy the equipment from Amazon?"

Absolutely! Though you will want to make sure it is proper, authorized gear, and not grey market/b-stock, etc. Also, pay close attention to the descriptions, as some of these locations need cameras with good WDR, or lenses that are not the standard 3mm or 6mm options.

Speaking of 'equipment', Amazon has a vast selection of hardware, but they really do not offer much for the VMS software...

 

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U
Undisclosed
Aug 30, 2017

The wiley IT dude may well know how to do things like purchase through CDW or other paths whereby they know how to assert they are using an authorized vendor supply chain partner, so be careful with that argument.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 31, 2017

....whereby they know how to assert they are using an authorized vendor supply chain....

Why does it need to be an authorized vendor supply chain? Their B&H rep or CCTV Wholesale rep has promised to back and warranty any camera they sell regardless of what the manufacturer says.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Aug 17, 2017

If the wizkid knows it all, just say "if you know it all, then why are you working here, for the man?"

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U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If the wizkid knows it all, just say "if you know it all, then why are you working here, for the man?"

"...when you could be working for someone technically savvy enough to fully appreciate and compensate your wiziness, like me, in an environment surrounded by other like-minded individuals..."

Wizkid: "Ok, when do I start?"

"Today.  First get in there and tell "the man" to write us a check for 50% up front."

Wizkid: "Who should I have him make it out to?"

"Willing Wizkids, LLC"

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

Can I have fun with this? I know it will come off as being a smarta**, but I am generally interested in the responses since I have had this happen to me. 

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

Do it. The point is to explore this scenario.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

This is an open retort to anyone who wants to play along. I will be playing your smarter than average WizKid who believe he knows it all. Please feel free to use any tactics you care to explore this scenario.

 

WizKid:

Why should we pay "insert name here" as an installer when I can buy professional grade equipment from Amazon for a fraction of the price?

Check out this link for a 16 channel GW Security System that I can purchase for ~$2,500.00 and have them install for another ~$1,500.00!

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01AYQ26CO?th=1

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

"Those kits are a mixture of different brands of products. For example, Great Wall Security is actually mostly manufactured Raysharp and LNTech. So if you intend to get additional form factors not available to Great Wall Security, then you cannot guarantee that all the features of the additional camera because ONVIF is by no-means comprehensive for features like Motion Detection, Virtual Tripwire, Facial Detection, etc.

Also, they have a 1 year warranty. Ours is 3. Outlasts most employees."

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

As an Integrator: Damn that is a good response. Loved the comment about the warranty. 

As WizKid: This type of system still comes in way cheaper than the one you are offering Robert. If we purchase direct from Amazon and switch out the cameras every couple of year we will still win in the end. Also I don't really need all those fancy features your solution offers. I just need simple live-view and playback. 

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

"So if you need to pass inspection, will your install be up to code? We are licensed and bonded for that reason.

What about integration with access control, fire, and alarm systems?

Where are its compatible water-proof mount boxes? It seems that GW themselves do not sell fitted mounting hardware for the cameras they got from their manufacturers.

Are you going to run your cameras 24/7? Do you expect a month of storage on that system or do you know how to accurately mitigate between your bitrates, the amount of recording you actually need, and the amount of footage you actually end up with and what size of a hard drive you need to meet your expectations?

Do you know the maximum distance those cameras can go to before they overdraw the limited built-in PoE and short the power supply?

Do you know the effects of line noise on IP cameras VS. simply pulling the UTP in through the existing coax cable, which is shielded and can endure a bit more interference?

It's details like these that we know a lot more intimately than a general "dedicated" IT department."

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Joseph Parker
Aug 18, 2017

Sweet burn!

U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 17, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Roleplay/dialogue is also an option. 

Wizkid Voicemail: "You've reached Kevin, I'm either not at my desk or on the phone, please leave a message."

Facility Manager: "Kevin, its Dan, hey look cameras #4 and #7 are still out and #8 keeps switching between b+w and color every five seconds or so, i guess were out of space on the array as well so...  In less pressing matters, I'm getting a message about trial licenses expiring and we can't move the PTZ. Also, what's the name of that mobile application again, I can't find it... Call me back, PLZ"

Wizkid: "Dan its Kevin, try powering them off and on again, that worked last time, right? I have a drive here that I can steal from the refurbs, that should cover space it for a while.  As for the trial license, for now just set the system date back a year (but keep the same day month!), and as for the other camera, that Integrator recomended them, so maybe you should call them, they should stand by their recommendation."

Facility Manager: "Well we didn't buy from them remember?  Hurry up with the drive..."

Wizkid Voicemail: "Mailbox is full."

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

WizKid Retort/Response: Please see comments above.  

WizKid: "Hey Dan. I spoke with Bob from networking and he said to just go ahead and replace cameras #4/#7 because he doesn't know why they are out either. It should be like ~$500.00 for the new cameras. We are using an embedded system so their shouldn't be any licensing issues and we reformatted the hard drives so that should be working again. I will check the specs again, but I don't think we have any PTZ Cameras."

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 17, 2017

"DIY -> STC (Suffer the consequences)"

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 17, 2017

Challenge: IT Department has a hotshot, wizkid, Googler, know-it-all who is trying to shop you and propose the project can be done in-house.

"I understand your point. I'm sure you're a smart person, and given enough time and training and experience, you could cobble something together yourself. But one of those key things is time, and for your employer, money. How much time and money do they want you spending on this and taking you away from your IT duties? They obviously called us in here for a reason." (Because it sure as helll wasn't you, obviously.) "Maybe because that time and money can be spent towards someone dedicated and knowledgeable to focus on the work so that you can stay focused on yours. Just like they wouldn't want you to take on remodeling the office bathroom, which is simpler than what you or I do." (And beneath your ego.) "I'm sure as a technology professional you would say the same thing to someone in marketing who asks why you 'why do we need a $5000 firewall when I can get a DLink for 1/50 of the cost and I can set it up because I watched a YouTube video on it...?'" (How's it feel, punk?) "And we take on the responsibility and the liability from off your shoulders with our service and warranty."

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

WizKid Retort/Response: Please see comments above and if you want to play along feel free to respond. 

As an Integrator: I like the response. You are keeping peoples ego in check while also getting the point across (IE- Stay in your lane).

---

As WizKid: I see the value you offer to the company in post sell services UI5. Could you break down the cost difference between your system and something simple like a HikVision, Dahua, or Uniview System? 

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 17, 2017

"With all due respects, we don't deal in those kinds of products. We could not in good conscious given their cyber security issues and low quality standards. And considering we offer a full warranty and support plan that covers every aspect of our work or your needs, that means we can't use low grade products, because it would cost us in the long run, as it would you if you purchased them and installed them yourself. It's just like the previous example, what would you say to someone who wanted to replace your firewall and network equipment with $100 routers and $50 switches and outsource your position to $20 an hour professionals on Craigslist as needed? We will never be the lowest bidder, but as our client testimonials, our longevity and our experience prove, we are far from the lowest value."

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

Good counter. Any further argument would have to be made as another integrator talking about different manufactures and their strengths and weaknesses. I like how you kept referring to WizKids profession and made parallels to what we do vs what he does. 

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Brian Karas
Aug 17, 2017
IPVM

As a spin on the above:

Our labor quote for installation on this is XX hours. This is based on the fact that our technicians have all attended manufacturer training on these products, and are familiar with the setup and optimizations required to get the best performance out of the system. I can tell you from our experience, it takes a knowledgable person who already understands the basics of computers, networking, etc. about 6 months to be fully proficient with products like this, and until they get there they are usually about 1/3 or 1/4 as productive as a fully trained technician.

I am sure you can research and learn the same topics, such as setting gain, framerate, determining when to use wide dynamic range, how to determine the proper pixel-per-foot data to capture the detail you need, and how to optimize the server for best performance (video data is very different from standard IT data).

For your planning purposes, you should probably take our hourly estimate and multiply that by at least 5 to get an idea of what your time investment will be in terms of learning, setting up, and tweaking the system to get the the point that our techs would have it in a couple of days. If your department has everything else under control to the point that you have free time along those lines, it might be worthwhile for you to DIY this.

After the installation, expect to spend another XX hours learning the ins and outs of using the system. We include X hours of training with our bid, which we have optimized over the years to ensure we can get customers up to speed and proficient on the system quickly.

Feel free to contact us if you need help along the way. Our hourly rate for systems we setup and install is $100, but for troubleshooting and assisting on other installs we charge $200, as it takes longer to diagnose and troubleshoot systems that were not configured to proven values and settings, and it takes us away from serving our core customers. If you damage a camera during installation, we stock spares, and our relationship with the manufacturer allows us to get RMAs quickly, we would be happy to help you out there as well on an as-needed basis, but we do not provide any discounts in that case, and charge a minimum 1 hour labor for RMA assistance.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 17, 2017

Ya...  Pretty sure the comment above would take the legs out of just about any argument I could make as a non-integrator. Anyone smarter than me want to take a crack at it? 

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

I've got something, but we're not gonna like it.

U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I am sure you can research and learn the same topics, such as setting gain, framerate, determining when to use wide dynamic range, how to determine the proper pixel-per-foot data...

Bean Counter: "Wizkid, just got off the phone with Kara$ Konsultant$, let me ask you something: how would you set the gain and framerate for our system?"

Wizkid: "Depends, maybe 'DEF' or 'AUT', or even 'HI'.  Framerate, I'm old school, 29.97 fps as mentioned here in Wikipedia, good enough for NTSC right?"

Bean Counter: "Ok smart guy, how would you go about determining our pixels-per-foot data?"

Wizkid: "So you remember those SONYO 4k big screens over at Best Buy? 3840 x pixels divided by 72 inches wide which is 6-feet gives you 640 pixels per foot."

Bean Counter: "You sure about that?"

Wizkid: "Nah, I'm messing with you...  Really, that 72 inches is the diagonal width, so you have to calculate the hypotenuse of 3840 and 2190, which would be 4420 and so the pixels per foot are actually around 736."

Bean Counter: "You really are a Wizkid..."

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 18, 2017

“If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bullshit.”


― W.C. Fields

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 17, 2017
Independent

WizKid V2 Counter:
We don't spend $5000 on a Firewall. A Ubiquiti USG @ $299 does exactly what we need it to and with a $79 UniFi Cloud Key, we can remotely manage it like a Meraki as well.

I can pick it up @ Microcenter and be done in a night.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 18, 2017

We don't spend $5000 on a Firewall. A Ubiquiti USG @ $299 does exactly what we need it to and with a $79 UniFi Cloud Key, we can remotely manage it like a Meraki as well.

"That's pretty industrious. We respect you looking out for your employer's best interest and will let them know so." (He/she's a hack that likes to jury rig and tinker at company risk.) "Ultimately it is up to [the decision maker's] prerogative on which way to go, along with weighing in your input. We will let them know we are here to help in anyway possible should the need arise." (Cleaning up your mess at a premium. We've seen it before many times, and done it many times.) "Have a nice day."

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 18, 2017
Independent

Not as WizKid: I think you might be going about this continuation the wrong way. You might not want to butt heads with product knowledge on the pure IT aspect of the argument cause I can tell you, Ubiquiti is EXTREMELY competitive and capable for it's price point and is not the kind of debate you want to get sucked into. Use a different angle.

Also, in the world of IT, hackers and technocrats are on an equal playing field. Be mindful not to snub your nose at the guy who pieces together solutions as they are easily the next innovator that drives the market.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 18, 2017

Robert, I understand what you're saying. What I was trying to indicate was that was where I would consider the pitch to be at the end and where I would walk. You can only make your points the best you can, and if they don't see the value in it, they don't see the value. I'm not saying everyone should end it there, I'm saying that's about where I would end it. They either buy or they don't. If someone is hell bent on doing it themselves, then let them. And I'm not really criticizing everyone who does.

But what seems to be the subject of this discussion is a whiz kid who is arrogant and stubborn with an ego to build, not a fully reasonable or objective person. In those cases, history has shown that even if you do win the business with someone like that involved, they are usually more hassle than they are worth. They will always be an obtuse and unfair critic of your products and services afterwards because their mantra will always be "I could have done this better and cheaper if they had just let me." They turn into one of those 20/80 business rule deals: they are in the top 80% of clients who are the biggest time and resource consumers and yield the bottom 20% of profits, and not based on anything you did wrong. They are very good at building a narrative that absolves them of responsibility. If you win the job and something doesn't work right, it's because of your incompetence and they could have done it better. If they do it themselves and something doesn't work right, it's the product's fault and they're going to give Amazon and Ubiquiti an earful (when and if they ever return the email asking for a support phone number, hahaha), "Because boss that's what I do for you and the company. I'll make them fix their mistakes and I'll spend as many hours on the discussion forums and Google searches as needed", and no one will think to account for not only the time the IT person spends on fixing problems with the security system but also the time lost from their primary duties, and tallying that up in a total and accurate cost analysis to weigh against the original proposal would have cost them.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Aug 18, 2017

That is a pretty fair assessment. Sometimes the work is not worth the headache that comes attached with it and if it falls into that 20/80 rule like UI5 implies it is typically better to walk away. Just my personal experience with this industry. 

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 18, 2017
Independent

You still had other avenues of approach, not yet explored. Read the full exercise and you might find something that can help you.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Aug 18, 2017

You still had other avenues of approach, not yet explored.

Who said I'm stopping reading? I'm always open to new ideas.

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 19, 2017
Independent

There is still an opportunity to upsell in this instance that basically no one has taken. I'm trying to keep my own answers conservative in that aspect till others figure it out.

U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 31, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I can pick it up @ Microcenter and be done in a night.

It'll be fun to see my old boss...

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Aug 18, 2017

I've been there for this one.  If you ask them, all IT guys are overworked and are a project of grave importance behind.

I ask the WizKid "Do you have time to maintain this and the continuous requests that come with it?

Maybe it's best if we do this together so you can see what is happening to your network and systems without adding an anchor around your neck".

It usually works and when it didn't, no sleep was lost. 

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Mike Dotson
Aug 18, 2017
Formerly of Seneca • IPVMU Certified

Site Security Manager calls WhizKid...

Wizkid Voicemail: "You've reached Kevin, I'm on vacation for 2 weeks with no email access.   Please leave a message and I will get back to you when I return.

Manager calls IT manager....is told that the Wiz is the only one who knows how it works.

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U
Undisclosed #7
Aug 18, 2017

I'm pretty certain the first impression of every integrator/vendor is that I AM that in-house, google-it-all WizKid.  What I think I am is that in-house, go-to guy who is expected to somehow already know more about 'xyz' even though the person needing my help is the only user...

Reading IPVM I get how hard it may be to trust a client that asks so many questions it feels like you are being shopped; sometimes you are.  Sometimes the client is just a little too OCD about things or has a work environment that randomly micromanages and expects more information.  I don't fact-check my integrators out of distrust, I do it because I want to know the reasoning and tech behind the proposal and because on larger projects what was originally requested typically evolves into so much more.  (Often because I asked more questions!)

The comment, "Maybe it's best if we do this together so you can see what is happening to your network and systems without adding an anchor around your neck" rings very true for my circumstance. 

I have to maintain day to day operations.  I have to plan for future expansion.  I have other responsibilities that require my attention.  I want to be capable to troubleshoot and resolve the physical and digital low-hanging fruit on my own and when I cannot, I want to be able to provide enough detail to my integrator to the maximize efficiency and effectiveness of the service call. 

I don't want to spend my day running cable and making terminations.  Okay, and honestly I also don't want to be on a boom lift mounting a bullet camera 40 feet up.

I'm much happier knowing my integrator is doing the work so I can focus on doing the rest of my own work. 

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 25, 2017
Independent

Mind playing a convincing WizKid for us? I might as well use you to give away the answers I've been holding back since no one here took advantage of the fact that we were selling to a chemical lab here.

U
Undisclosed #7
Aug 29, 2017

I'd love to hear your held back answers!  Because if they are doing it in-house, they'll probably try to put a pin hole cam in the vending machine too

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 31, 2017
Independent

My held back answers are on the integrator side, mostly. The point is that this is an exercise and I want people to diversify their tactics against in-house technicians.

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Kevin White
Aug 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

let me start with - if this is a small business and they ONLY want recorded pictures and that is it. then they should just go to amazon and buy a cheap camera system. BUT if they want something to help them in their business - then let me help you.

it is all in the interview / meeting with customer to find out what are their plans on the project "switching from Coax to IP". conversations with IT "wizkid" can usually uncover a lot of valuable information.

what I find is that the IT department is already taxed to hilt just keeping up with day to day workload. then add "patches, updates, annual upgrades, licensing management, etc. meetings with department heads to schedule upgrades, Upgrade impact meetings, etc. etc."

This leads into - why would you want to add something else to your plate? especially something that now would require additional training? Then add to the fact that "what happens if a camera goes out?" since it has been 6 mos or a year - will you have "retrain yourself" to get a new camera up and running? (another day lost.).

as stated earlier - have to get a ladder, take down camera, call amazon (oops that vendor is gone) now what..??

 

just like you subcontract the cabling or building management or yard work. let us be your subcontractor to support YOU for all this IT camera stuff.

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Joseph Marotta
Aug 18, 2017
IPVMU Certified

This is one of my favorite discussions! These conversations would make a great sitcom!

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Greg Levorchick
Aug 21, 2017

After losing a large account to an in-house IT dept we started adding in a notation to our proposals that expands on the typical "Costs are valid for XX days".  It includes a notation that the system design and implementation plan as proposed are the intellectual property of our company and that if the client decides to complete the system implementation in-house or with another vendor and the system is significantly similar to that proposed, $XX will be payable to our company for consultation and design.

We've never had to actually charge this but it has certainly opened up good conversations.  It shows we acknowledge that there are alternatives to using our services but also that there is value in our proposal/system design.  

There is nothing wrong with a client/IT manager shopping or comparing the costs, etc.   Just as knowledge & expertise of the IT dept adds value to the clients company, we should should be able to show that our knowledge, expertise & services add value to their operations. 

Video equipment is quickly becoming a commodity item, much in the same way IT hardware has.  Look how significantly that has changed the landscape for companies like Cisco.  Sure the hardware is still an important consideration but the services(Before, during and after the installation) are where the differences and value are really distinguished.

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KG
Kristian Gragg
Aug 21, 2017

I normally bring up a recent local incident where I was brought in after one of these systems did not deliver video.

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RS
Robert Shih
Aug 21, 2017
Independent

Last hints and I hope this gets some ideas rolling.

Sell to fit the customer's needs, not just to survive the pushback.

Don't just get boxed in by the scope you're given. Upsells can actually be used to gain the advantage and increase your appeal.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Aug 21, 2017

Sure, sell parts and smarts.  Mostly smarts because they will google cheap parts.  It doesn't keep crews busy. 

RS
Robert Shih
Aug 22, 2017
Independent

Parts that aren't easily researched for specialty applications like corrosion proof cameras.

Also, welcome to horror stories to scare customers.

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Luis Carmona
Aug 22, 2017
Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

I'm sure there is more to that story than what was on the surface. But my takeaway was that a trusted brand name, Sony, was bought off of Amazon and had embedded links to a known malware site. Now whether the system was actually Sony, or hacked Sony, or counterfeit named Sony, I don't think we can be sure based on that article alone. But it is a good case to bring up.

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Meghan Uhl
Aug 21, 2017

Don't lose the account, they're going to need you soon enough when Whizkid learns the hard lesson.  Best position is to stay on his/her side, stroke his/her ego and stay in there making a little money until they're ready to do it right and then you'll be right there WITH Whizkids blessing.

Say to him/her:  absolutely, you can so it for sure.  There are a couple things to be aware of like xxxxx and xxxxx.  I'd also recommend that you go with xxxx product and avoid xxxx product(s).  You can buy them at xxxx but be careful to make sure they are authorized resellers so you can still get factory support.  If you run into problems you can just give us a call and we'll shoot over here to help you out.  Our service rates are xxxx or, if you'd rather we can put together an annual service agreement with you that will save you on the hourly rates and then we'll be on call for you (etc, etc., whatever your service deal is).

Now you have hopefully sold a service agreement locking you into control of the account, you've gotten on Whizkids good side so when the time comes he'll champion hiring you to do the job right.  In the meantime, based on time & materials at a profitable service rate you're not losing money if you have to go bail him out of the mess he created!

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Luis Carmona
Aug 21, 2017
Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

Meghan, that is a good point. But I'll relay something from past experience as an IT Services guy who served a small city area, so sometimes I heard things through the grapevine after getting turned down for offering IT services, by either the owner or their inhouse "whiz kid". Sometimes they would come back to us after trying to do it themselves or trying someone else cheaper and admitting they should have gone with us in the first place. But most times they didn't. Either they were still trying to find the cheapest deal, or I suspected sometimes even if they felt they should have went with us, their pride wouldn't let them come back to us but instead still want to seek someone else. I got the inside story once from an employee there that was exactly the reason.

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Meghan Uhl
Aug 21, 2017

Agreed there can be 2 outcomes but what you'd be shooting for with this approach is leaving the door open for the "sometimes" and you don't lose anything if they're the prideful "most of the time" types.  I just think its worth keeping that door open. As long as you're not in danger of losing money over it, why wouldn't you?

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Luis Carmona
Aug 21, 2017
Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

Yes, I agree.

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Lynn Harold
Aug 22, 2017

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David Coughlin
Aug 22, 2017
Protection One / ADT

Find out early in the process if we're talking about 5 cameras or 500. I personally wouldn't waste time on a 5 camera system. Obviously, there are other considerations such as, is this a national account, are there other revenue opportunities? Also, is "wizkid" the decision maker, recommender, etc.?  Knowing his role and his level of influence is key. 

The point that I typically make first is that whatever the client's business is, ask them if their customers can create the same thing. I'd venture to guess that at least 75% of products and services out there can be made and/or done by some one who is smart enough and has access to the materials. But, people are employed in companies to manufacture, service, and promote their own products. Why then would they spend their (or their company's) valuable time setting up a security system? The point is, there is value in hiring a qualified company that is experienced, trained, and qualified in installing security systems and saving the "wizkid's" time for work that pushes their products and/or services forward. 

That noted, some people are far too smart for reasoning. When encountering someone who comes across as though they have nothing to learn and knows all the answers, I simply say, "I can't argue with you and, I likely can't help you. Have a nice day."

Spend your time with people who understand value and are looking for solutions.

At least, that's my $.02.

 

U
Undisclosed #4
Aug 22, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Also, is "wizkid" the decision maker, recommender, etc.? 

When the wizkid is the decision maker, you don't even get called.  At least until he's performed his wizardry, that is :)

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Shannon Davis
Aug 29, 2017
IPVMU Certified

I run into this all the time. Usually though someone this smart does buy the $100 routers.

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Robert Shih
Sep 11, 2017
Independent

How I generally hoped someone would approach this:
"I understand you have a lot of generic retail grade options to choose from, but I don't think they will be specific to your needs. As a chemical lab, there will be regulations and special applications that will reduce or eliminate your liability in case of incidents that will work to your benefit in compliance with OSHA and your insurance claims.

For example, are any of these items NEMA4X corrosion proof? Are there any explosion risks in your lab? What about clean rooms and potential decontamination scenarios? What role will these cameras play in preventing, monitoring, and mitigating events? Placing them directly above work zones to capture operator error is crucial and can be made even more effective with manual and automated recording triggers linked to your procedures using alarm inputs.

Additionally, industrial grade products like ours work together with our access control to limit unauthorized entry to sensitive areas and enforce schedules for entry and exit. This is more than just a simple retrofit. It is a chance to preempt insurance claims, lawsuits, and oversights. That is not a task you want to leave to simple retail options in your position."

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Sep 11, 2017

Well, given it's a chemical plant and you are talking security I would imagine the first request would be for your CFATS identification number.

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Undisclosed #4
Sep 11, 2017
IPVMU Certified

Who was the "Potential Customer" in the first place?

a Chemical Lab:

 

 or a Chemical Plant:

 

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Robert Shih
Sep 11, 2017
Independent

I somehow switched it to plant as I was typing. Oops, but yeah, I was definitely going for lab. Plant would be even more intense for different reasons. Fixed now.

Overall, I know I'm not the most knowledgeable for these particular situations, but I imagined that people would stop butting heads only with the tech guy and his pushback and move to the actual meat of the conversation dealing with the particular customer and his needs and why the surveillance system needs to be there in the first place.

UE
Undisclosed End User #8
Sep 11, 2017

Image result for walter white breaking bad lab

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UE
Undisclosed End User #8
Sep 11, 2017

The only reason that I have ever done in-house installations is because of an inadequate budget. In a regulatory driven environment (chemical plant), I'd never risk a self-install. Too much to risk, including my continued salary.

If the budget is proper, I specify the exact system I want and let my integrator take it from there.

My advice:

1) Play to the Wizkid's ego and help make him look good to his boss (which may also be his dad). "wow, you've sure done your research on this, so you know I am proposing an excellent solution and great value for ABS Chemical Co and you." 

2) Or say good luck and that you are always willing to come back when he needs help. He is used to getting praise for how smart he is. He will now doubt himself.

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