Subscriber Discussion

Opinion: Dealing With Chinese Manufacturers Fairly

RS
Robert Shih
Sep 05, 2018
Independent

Let me be clear: I'm OBVIOUSLY not a fan of Chinese government owned entities.

I'm also ambivalent toward Chinese manufacturers as a whole, even while selling their products.

HOWEVER, I do not see a universal non-conditional ban without any nuance as the answer and I do not see all Chinese manufacturers as having the same level of a threat in our networks.

This is on the basis of ownership. Chinese state-owned entities are INTRINSICALLY a threat because of the nature of their government as a single party dictatorship, their authoritarian policies against free speech and other human rights, and their growing imperialism and intellectual property theft problems. This automatically makes any company owned and staffed by this government or the Communist Party of China suspect in intention. Even if the products can be proven to be trustworthy, the funds garnered from transactions with these companies more directly fund their abuses of power and their international ambitions.

Privately owned companies in China, however, should not be automatically grouped in the same category. I recognize that the government may follow their authoritarian instincts and force these companies to cooperate in cyber warfare, but I can envision proper policy crafting as a means to shape how privately owned enterprises can behave, even in China.

Rather than just a ban or kicking off trade wars in spite and short-sighted protectionism, why not regulate the nature of the companies we want doing business in the United States in the first place? We can easily bolster the FCC to have a cybersecurity regulatory function that can also ban the use of certain components in electronics (example: U.S. market cameras must exclude Hisilicon and Huawei components, making US manufacturing more necessary and giving Texas Instruments and other U.S. manufacturers a new lease on life) and ensure software and firmware hardening. Banning import of unregulated equipment not made to FCC standards would still definitely be productive for all parties.

In a more blanket economic move, why not require that a certain volume of products be produced domestically, like Toyota does with its vehicles to meet our standards (perhaps for different reasons here)? Also, if we want to be aggressive here, why not ensure that certain workers' conditions be met to discourage sweat shops? This will also force their costs ups and help domestic companies to be more competitive by nature. This ALSO discourages the overall outsourcing of manufacturing.

There are so many more solutions that we can implement as a whole to both even the playing field and improve our overall cyber security than just simply banning private manufacturers along with state-owned actors. Incentivizing privately owned manufacturers to do business the fair and safe way in the United States can only be beneficial to the market as a whole. It could potentially teach them to hold themselves up to higher standards, even within their own country of origin.

Edit: As an addendum to address the recently mentioned sanctions I would believe be fair, I believe that based on willingness to comply with new standards in the style I outline would be a fair way of scaling back their penalties as long as no further infractions on our moral outlines are performed.

Second chances can do wonders, as long as there is follow through with the change in direction.

Also, private companies in China never had an inkling that there would be consequences for working with the Chinese government in the first place. By creating regulations with consequences, we can hope to lead them to the right choice. Not saying that will necessarily happen, but at least the avenue of choice is there.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #3
Sep 05, 2018

I like what you've said here Robert, it's 100% on point. I would love to throw my support in should a movement in this direction ever take place. I already buy fair-trade when it exists, coffee and clothing mostly. It'd be nice to have similar standards in electronics too.

I had tried to get some of our manufacturers to start using recycled boxes. Something as simple as RECYCLED CARDBOARD, and that was a major pain, and in the end they basically said "We appreciate your thought, we also love the planet, but no." Which is a common theme when trying to change a Chinese manufacturer's ways. Even if it could save them money.

I also like your comment that the companies in China never even thought twice about the consequences of working with the government itself. That could be a cultural difference, as the PRC and the USA are very different, and the citizens views of their governments are about as different as it can get, speaking in general terms of course. For the longest time China has dictated the direction of technological improvements and innovations in our industry, which is why our industry has been stagnant and stale for 10 years.

Perhaps this recent ban could lead into a broader, and more well-thought out, partnership/trade agreement in which the two nations could actually work together to make the products better. Implementing true innovation, scientific thought, and the sharing of knowledge instead of the theft & protection thereof.

It'd be great if we could help these manufacturers make products in our warehouse, instead of just storing them. ESPECIALLY on the design side of things... my god... why does every camera have to look like it's from 1991? Because in China, Russia, India, and Brazil they don't care and they don't think we should care and therefore we try not to care...

As it stands now, we're just sifting through the old junk trying to find the best product for the price that our, ever so budget conscious, consumers can stomach.

It is, however, quite refreshing and encouraging to read your thoughts here. Maybe we can all rally together and actually effect some kind of meaningful change?

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Avatar
Sean Nelson
Sep 05, 2018
Nelly's Security

Very well spoken. I agree with most everything. Unfortunately, and i hate to be negative, I dont see any of it happening due to an all time China hate/fear in this industry. 

This is on the basis of ownership. Chinese state-owned entities are INTRINSICALLY a threat because of the nature of their government as a single party dictatorship, their authoritarian policies against free speech and other human rights, and their growing imperialism and intellectual property theft problems. This automatically makes any company owned and staffed by this government or the Communist Party of China suspect in intention. Even if the products can be proven to be trustworthy, the funds garnered from transactions with these companies more directly fund their abuses of power and their international ambitions.

This is a great point, one in which I stated why I think the ban made no sense. Nonetheless, detractors will point out things such as:

"Although Dahua does not have as much Chinese Government ownership, they are just as much owned by China as Hikvision due to the large number of Government Projects and Government Funding (loans) they accept." In other words, you do a deal with the GodFather, you will have favors you need to payback eventually. 

Also, Dahua's hack was one of the (if not the) worst surveillance hack in history. Hikvision got hacked but not near as bad as Dahua. 

Rather than just a ban or kicking off trade wars in spite and short-sighted protectionism, why not regulate the nature of the companies we want doing business in the United States in the first place? We can easily bolster the FCC to have a cybersecurity regulatory function that can also ban the use of certain components in electronics (example: U.S. market cameras must exclude Hisilicon and Huawei components, making US manufacturing more necessary and giving Texas Instruments and other U.S. manufacturers a new lease on life) and ensure software and firmware hardening. Banning import of unregulated equipment not made to FCC standards would still definitely be productive for all parties.

I would love to see this happen. But I still fear that it wont be enough. Lets just say that Hikua or any other large china manufacturer followed all these rules to a T, and lets say Axis, Avigilon etc didnt. Who would still get shafted about not being cyber compliant anytime a vulnerability pops up and who would be praised? At any rate, I would love to see a regulatory standard of some sort, definetely think this is a move in the right direction.

Also, private companies in China never had an inkling that there would be consequences for working with the Chinese government in the first place. By creating regulations with consequences, we can hope to lead them to the right choice. Not saying that will necessarily happen, but at least the avenue of choice is there.

I do also hope that they start to think twice, but I think the big 3 could probably survive just fine without the USA to be honest. If they ultimately had a choice to choose between USA biz or China biz, i think the decision will be easy for them. I know the USA is still good business for them, but they have the earth and losing one segment wont hurt them badly. Perhaps they should consider not installing products in China and just focus on 100% supply. Then they will be accussed of opening renamed side companies just for this sole purpose

Honestly, If any Chinese company wanted to do business with the USA, they should probably think twice about doing any type of business with the Chinese government. Sad but true.

You have to give it up to Trump, he is enticing USA manufacturing by "fearing" people into it. Its working. The only way I see a good long term business plan is to actually manufacturer your own camera in the USA.

Avatar
Ethan Ace
Sep 05, 2018

Just a point of fact: US manufacturing has been on an upswing since 2010, with brief stalls in 2015 and 2017.

It may be accelerating more quickly at the moment, but it's hard to tell with such a small time period to go on at the moment.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #3
Sep 05, 2018

These stats don't break it down by industry though. You cannot buy an American made Television, Camera, DVR, PC, Game Console, anything like that. Also note I do differentiate Assembly and Manufacturing/Making.

Sure we can get textiles, food, and metallic goods... I'd like to see some of the higher level/higher functioning products be made here in America. At least on a consumer level anyway.

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Avatar
Sean Nelson
Sep 05, 2018
Nelly's Security

I would almost wonder if manufacturing in the surveillance industry went down from then until now.

RS
Robert Shih
Sep 06, 2018
Independent

It probably did, but Avigilon might be the main counterpoint.

RS
Robert Shih
Sep 08, 2018
Independent

Thank you, I have some responses for you.

This is a great point, one in which I stated why I think the ban made no sense. Nonetheless, detractors will point out things such as:

"Although Dahua does not have as much Chinese Government ownership, they are just as much owned by China as Hikvision due to the large number of Government Projects and Government Funding (loans) they accept." In other words, you do a deal with the GodFather, you will have favors you need to payback eventually.

Also, Dahua's hack was one of the (if not the) worst surveillance hack in history. Hikvision got hacked but not near as bad as Dahua.

Fair counterpoints and I'll accept that, but I'd rather see the USA at least make the attempt to flip Dahua since the bigger victory would be setting an example that working with Western Democracies are more profitable and noble in the end. It would also be more effective to strike against Hisilicon's market share by forcing the hand of one of their biggest customers.

I would love to see this happen. But I still fear that it wont be enough. Lets just say that Hikua or any other large china manufacturer followed all these rules to a T, and lets say Axis, Avigilon etc didnt. Who would still get shafted about not being cyber compliant anytime a vulnerability pops up and who would be praised? At any rate, I would love to see a regulatory standard of some sort, definetely think this is a move in the right direction.

Note that I've said that cybersecurity standards were to be universally applied and not just to Chinese manufacturers in multiple instances.

I do also hope that they start to think twice, but I think the big 3 could probably survive just fine without the USA to be honest. If they ultimately had a choice to choose between USA biz or China biz, i think the decision will be easy for them. I know the USA is still good business for them, but they have the earth and losing one segment wont hurt them badly. Perhaps they should consider not installing products in China and just focus on 100% supply. Then they will be accussed of opening renamed side companies just for this sole purpose

Honestly, If any Chinese company wanted to do business with the USA, they should probably think twice about doing any type of business with the Chinese government. Sad but true.

I think the point shouldn't be to starve them out and just deny them any business altogether. Offer them the chance at much more lucrative business and give them the opportunity to perform and they may switch sides. It's like negotiations with terrorists. Sure, you can waterboard them all day, but if you make one flip at the promise of a steak dinner and the good life, you may get way more out of them.

Remember that China's regime is indeed very oppressive and controlling. If we contrast ourselves by rewarding and protecting our collaborators, we become the good guys and the beacon they can run to. Otherwise, these companies will just default to the evil they know.

You have to give it up to Trump, he is enticing USA manufacturing by "fearing" people into it. Its working. The only way I see a good long term business plan is to actually manufacturer your own camera in the USA.

I don't think this any of this banning or fear-mongering will effective in bringing manufacturing back to the USA. If anything, all this has done is take out two big players without defining the rules. Too many of these companies that are ready to take the place of Hikvision and Dahua are still using Hisilicon chips and that's definitely a root cause of distrust in these manufacturers. If we really want to protect America's cybersecurity, all aspects of this problem must be addressed.

We can only do so much with bans and sanctions. Incentives to follow standards are a much more definitive recourse.

Also, we're the USA. We shouldn't operate solely in the realm of fear. Ours is a nation of hope, opportunity, and freedom.

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Sep 06, 2018

I think we are using the term regulated and standards incorrectly... Hik etc have passed safety standards by ul, fcc, etc. I keep hearing people say the fcc should have standards and if company x passes it is good.

They do have sta dads that are passed to allow import.

I think you are referring to when Huawei was banned by the US or Australia due to national security concerns in the national telecom infrastructure. Here, dvrs and cameras are not building a telecom infrastructure. The fcc has nothing to do with this. It would fall to nist or similar agencies, not the fcc. 

 

Take a look at the link below when Australia was looking to ban Huawei from their 5g network rollout even though they were on a committee to develop 5g standards  

 

This is not just the US being xenophobic. 

It has to do with being able to trust the source code and the "supply chain" of the firmware. 

https://www.zdnet.com/article/abbott-confirms-nbns-ban-on-huawei-stays/

Finally, the US is the largest or 2nd largest market for Hik, etc. They cant/won't just walk away and be content with their domestic Chinese market. 

 

 

 

RS
Robert Shih
Sep 06, 2018
Independent

Whether the NIST handles it or the FCC handles it, the standards and regulations can be designed and enforced given proper and continuing foresight and oversight. One problem though: the NIST is not a regulatory body. It has no actual punitive measure to take against products sold in the USA. Their powers would need immediate escalation for your quip to have any real effect.

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 06, 2018

then ban on Hikua in the U.S. has zero to do with how the U.S. deals with foreign manufacturers, and all to do with sanctioning what the U.S. sees as these two foreign companies' direct complicity in documented human rights violations in Xinjiang internment camps.

You can't argue 'fairness' and ignore the very reasons for why it was done in the first place.

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RS
Robert Shih
Sep 06, 2018
Independent

The request to sanction was just reported AFTER the bill for the ban was passed and the reasoning for both are completely separate.

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 06, 2018

From the WSJ article:

"China’s detention of as many as a million Uighurs and other Muslims in the camps “requires a tough, targeted and global response,” the letter from the Congress members said. “No Chinese official or business complicit in what is happening [in Xinjiang] should profit from access to the United States or the U.S. financial system.”

RS
Robert Shih
Sep 06, 2018
Independent

The ban was signed in back on the 13th. Again, different reasoning, different points on the timeline. Please, pay attention.

The SANCTIONS are different from the government procurement ban. Completely. Basically, Congress wants to hit them AGAIN.

U
Undisclosed #2
Sep 06, 2018

lol - thanks for the lesson in civics.  :)

So the 'questionable' ban happened first (agree), followed shortly thereafter by the Magnitsky Act -related sanctions.

against the same two companies.

You can pretend that the two are not related, but IMO the 'completely different' things were clearly part of a larger THING.

"Congress wants to hit them AGAIN"

exactly.

RS
Robert Shih
Sep 09, 2018
Independent

They're related, but the wording and reasoning used to justify and elaborate on the bill to ban contains nothing of the request to sanction.

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