My clients are mostly residential and smb but I want to propose a quote to a larger potentially new client that has 50 stores with 4-6 cameras each on average. I am weighing the advantages and disadvantages of non-licensed embedded solutions (hikvision) vs software based solutions... I understand the benefits of software based setup but I don't believe i can sell $30,000 in camera license fees to a company that chose to use Lorex IP cameras at each location. I wan't to sell a solution and gradually upgrade the stores over time. I was just wondering if anyone would want to put their two cents in so i can get some ideas on the setup they'd recommend. The cameras don't have any specific analytical needs other than viewing entrances and cash handling.
50 Stores, 300 Total Cameras - Embedded NVR Vs Software VMS?
Why do they want to remove the Lorex?
Do they need centralized access to all 300 cameras? Or will each store access/manage their system independently?
System management and 3rd party integrations are two key differentiating areas. For example, even Hikvision is now promoting paid / licensed software (e.g. HikCentral) for such use cases.
I'll let others get into the details of this but worth looking at HikCentral to get a sense of how Hikvision positions paid software for such a use case.
Note: I changed the title. I believe it's more concise and clearer but #1 if you do not like, let me know and I'll change.
I'd like to setup remote management to access all sites. I want something that will integrate with the Lorex equipment right now and also integrate with the new equipment i will be slowly upgrading to each store. I know replacing what they have with the a better system and a centralized management software will save money on service in the long run.
Are you wanting to record all 50 sites into one site? If so, that could be a problem within itself unless you have beastly internet speeds at all locations, especially the one where the main server rests. Matter of fact, you may even want to get a dedicated internet connection just for the main site for the NVR. I would tackle this issue before you do anything
If all you want to do is view and manage the devices from one central location, Lorex should have a CMS that would work to pull all the devices into one software and pull up the cameras every now and then.
I have worked with many different Lorex cameras and seen undesirable results when connecting them to larger VMS's (i.e. Genetec, Milestone, etc.). It is important to remember Lorex products were designed to play well with certain other Lorex products, they were not designed to be part of a larger system. Most of the Lorex branded products are Dahua but not all - and the ones from other OEM's do not work with Dahua based products...
Here is a notice from their LNB2150 webpage:
COMPATIBILITY NOTICE
The cameras are only compatible with certain Lorex NVR models. The camera is not ONVIF compliant and it cannot be used without a compatible NVR. Click here for a list of compatible NVRs.
Some of their cameras do claim to be ONVIF compliant but if you go to the ONVIF website and search Conformant Products by manufacturer there are no results for Lorex.
In short I would just suggest you proceed with caution, Lorex cameras were made to be sold in bundles at Costco to homeowners who want an all-in-one kit and do not plan for integrations - they work well for that market, but you may start running into issues if you try to expand beyond that.
I would check to see if the client is willing to have skin in the game. Taking on 50+ stores for one client can put a large strain on your company. I am not sure the size of your company however I am pretty sure you will be dedicating some overhead and resources that need to be paid for.
What do you think about going slowly with the client and do both solutions as a real world test case. You could do two stores with embedded and two with software/VMS. There will probably be some unknown issues and scope items you will discover as well as give the client some time to understand the differences. It can also gauge your client's real interest in the project by having them dedicate some time and resources.
Good luck.
I appreciate all the replies and great points being made! Will Doherty, that is a great approach, I think that is the solution I was looking for! It will give the client an open mind on how to move forward!
Look at Hanwha NVR or HD Analog DVR with SmartViewer.
Hanwha Nvrs will integrate with WAVE VMS. New version 3.2 allows you to manage nvr-based cameras just like any other camera including dual streaming and the ability to change camera config, such as frame rate, resolution, wdr, etc. Through wave and through the nvr.
Smart viewer should really only be used for very small or very low cost system or analog dvrs.
We hope to have a new analog dvr that is compatible later this year.
Our new HD analog 4/16 channel encoder is compatible with WAVE.
Wave would be nice, but we are talking about someone who is using Lorex now and software licensing was going to be the pain point. SmartViewer would probably blow their mind and it can aggregate multiple sites. Sound like he was looking for compromise.
Incoming 2 cents on the cheap:
https://demo.synology.com/en-us/surveillance
6000 Cameras
https://www.synology.com/en-us/surveillance/feature/vast_cameras_support
$52 IP license
https://www.amazon.com/Synology-Camera-License-Pack-CLP4/dp/B001JD8J8W
Good Luck! Let me know if you want a Rolls Royce!
I would strongly encourage anyone who has to monitor or maintain a system that large to seriously consider a real VMS. We use DW Spectrum, but there are others similar to it. DW Spectrum will cost you roughly $25k, plus hardware, but if they saw it in action versus any CMS, like iVMS-4200, they would jump all over the VMS in a heartbeat. If they didn't, I would seriously walk away from the project. Anyone short sighted enough to not want something easy to manage long term is not worth having as a client. Let them be someone else's problem.
I agree. What i liked about DW Spectrum is it supports some models of the current Lorex cameras. He can replace the cameras as they stop working. What are some of the benefits you see using DW Spectrum?
How much time do you have?
1) Super easy administration
2) Very reliable
3) Great support from devs
4) Supports almost every camera we’ve tried
5) Smart motion search makes investigations a beeeze
6) Version 3.2 integrates with Axis and Hikvision analytics
7) Super easy, single screen interface for end user
8) Savvy end users will not need training, only non-tech savvy clients will need help (this is a mouse, click the button)
9) Tabbed interface allows multiple layouts with the simplicity of tabs, similar to modern browsers
10) DW Cloud allows secure remote access and simple administration of clients sites without port forwarding
11) Inexpensive, perpetual licenses
12) No upgrade fees ever
13) No client restrictions or licenses
14) Decent mobile apps
15) Tons of customizing with alerts and bookmarks
Thats a good start. I could go on for days. It’s free to try. Free download. Free trial for 4 cameras.
I like how (Hanwha WAVE) the configuration is done on the same software Some vms you have to log in to a config utility, if it is even installed in the machine you are at, make sure the version matches, and dig though menus. Then reload the config after making changes for the client to see it .
Also, even the most complex task such as failober or camera rules or archiving can be accessed in 5 clicks or less.
My idea : put NVRs in each location ( we were using Dahua but I guess Hik is just as good ) and use Milestone to centralize. The idea is Milestone is using one device license per NVR ( max 16ch ) so you can use the advanced features Milestone has and will probably add in the future , plus the Partners solutions available for a reasonable price.
Ideally you can use PoE NVRs to centralize/manage power to the cameras also and XProtect Expert for the VMS (though Pro+ and even Express could be used ). In this scenario you can have redundancy ( recording in the NVRs and in the VMS) and also you can manage quite well when and how and if recordings are transferred centrally with Edge recording . Also you get Failover and most of the advanced features of Milestone at the fraction of the usual price ( 50 channel licenses ). If needed I think you can plan for the failed NVR scenario also ( get the ip cameras directly into Milestone manually while you replace that ) .
Here is the compatibility of one NVR I chose from the list : https://www.milestonesys.com/community/business-partner-tools/supported-devices/supported-device/?deviceId=38184&platform=XPCO&enableBack=true . You can see many functions are supported : VMD, Audio, PTZ, Edge Recording,
I totally agree with Vlad's "record remotely, manage centrally" approach. Gives you independence of the links between each site and the monitoring center.
Hi
I have a similar situation and would like to know more about this. I do understand that Milestone supports some NVR ( Dahua and Hik in particular ;)) . It also only requires one license per IP address/NVR
Here are some my questions/issues/problems:
Seems to be limited to 16 channels. What to do with additional channels in the case of a 32 or 64 channel-NVR? Wouldn't mind paying for one (1) additional license for each 16-channel.
Does the Milestone Client controls the Live View (definitely) to recorded view (IOW looking from the NVR own recording and transitioning smoothly to Live if needed/wanted?) ? IOW can customer can research recordings from SmartClient with the NVR controlling the recordings? We don't want to simply use the NVR as a decoder that sends streams to a PC where they would be recorded in the Milestone database format. That would IMHO defeats the purpose of NVR at the branch. Where bandwidth is plentiful and cheap, one can always send the streams to a central location. We prefer local recording and perhaps a central backup if possible. Recording needs to remain on site in the NVR and in the NVR native format.
I do understand the perspective of the board. PC-based VMS/recorder are so full of features.. But ... They are multipurpose machines. OTOH an appliance NVR is a built-for-the purpose machine with one single purpose: Record video from its favorite cameras. In our experience those form the hated DaHik simply work and well and reliably ... Under bad power and environmental conditions that would have PC dead in a few hours, they have worked in our experiences for for years. Gas stations with crummy AC varying from 85 to 140 VAC .. They work in place with regular and long power outages which means they don't shut down gracefully.. yes! they work and reliably and well. The idea of having something like the Milestone XProtect to control and manage these applainces/NVRs, the centralized administration of clients and features is something to aim for. We respect what a PC based VMS can do. in this type of application an NVR sems to me to be the best solution.
Would like to learn more about how Milestone Xprotect addresses those issues.. Thanks in advance
The NVR/DVR is seen by Milestone as a 16ch encoder with many functions ( Ptz, Audio, I/O, Edge Recording and all ) which does also a transcoding of sorts ( so different resolution/FPS gets sent to the central server if needed )
- In xProtect Pro lineup ( Express-Professional basically , with or without + and also free Essential ) you see them as live cameras and record as you wish on the central server. Then if you have issues ( lost connection or anything) you can manually log on the XVR and see the recordings it did internally, if you had it set as such. This is good for a one site system , maybe with distributed sub-systems at the gatehouse, East side, West side , 1st floor, 2nd floor, etc
- in xProtect Expert/Corporate you have Edge recording support so now all your cameras use the HDD from the XVR as any network camera would use an SD card : it can record there and send only the events ; or it can record on both locally and centrally or record locally and upload on demand or on schedule etc. This would work well on the multi-site systems mostly.
If things are getting even more complicated with bigger/more complex sites, then you can do a distributed xProtect system ( Federated=one big system / Interconnect = master/slave systems ) and then in each of those systems you register the XVRs/NVRs as cameras and you have 3 layers of recording/management.
More than 16ch you need more XVRs you can't do anything else ( it might be you get to choose from 64 cameras 16 to enroll but I doubt it ) . But I think it is a reasonable size: I think of it like an infrastructure component - I wouldn't power more than 16 cameras from one point anyway ...
And then you can have Web/Mobile/Win clients connected to all Milestone servers as need be. I think a local client in a site will connect to the central server for auth and such but eventually the live streams would stay local, at least in the Win Client.
This is my "personal" understanding of the structure . We have used it in real world projects and it works well ( of course depending on network quality and all components/settings etc) but I was involved in the concept - architecture part more and didn't actually execute so I cant vouch for all implementation details. If you want I can send some pdfs detailing parts of it all , PM/email me.
Hope it helps,
Vlad
Currently working as a subcontracting integrator for a large client with 2000+ (Fast food) stores. We are installing small Avigilon systems (Edge 8 Licenses A store) in each store that back up to a large server, but still store locally if things go down. We service 87 stores, and only thing we mainly have issues with is there implementation of pc sticks for local viewing at the store. Each store is roughly 6k-8k all said and done. Avigilon does a nice job at allowing you to manage each site, and to see sites collectively. Cameras are relatively inexpensive and support is great.
I am curious about this setup as well, is it an Avigilon blue or just one of the edge recorders? Also are you just recording motion events full frame rate and sending those to the backup server hourly/daily? Also for that dollar amount there must be some kind of recurring income to justify the effort to do the install, buy the parts and maintain that many sites. I have been looking at doing a solution like this for a few growing businesses we service and would be curious about your experience with the system.
Edge recorder all around. Full frame rate recordings sent back to the server every hour over the corporate vpn. There is an agreed SMA with the headquarters, however I am unsure of the scale of that. The client seems to be quiet happy with the cameras, avigilon and the setup as a whole. Like I said not many issues.
Interesting so with 8 cameras you need 2 ES units and you have continuous archiving setup to copy the video to a central NAS via VPN. They must have a large pipe to handle all the video. Nice.
Full disclosure that I am with Smartvue. We have been providing centralized management with cost-effective NVRs to commercial customers with 10 to hundreds of locations since we started. You may want to put Smartvue (now part of JCI) into your mix for consideration.
This is my first time jumping into the pool. Hopefully, I am not out of bounds. At Solink we take a completely different approach by providing a combined local & cloud based solution integrating Video + POS + Case Management for a low monthly fee. No Hardware Costs / No Maintenece Costs / No Propritary Hardware. Video + Transactions stored in the Cloud for a year. Over just the last year we have grown to over 2,500 retail customers with this model. My applogies if this is too much of a sales pitch...
for a low monthly fee.
What's the 'low' monthly fee?
Considering this user has Lorex cameras now, obviously price is an issue and your conception of 'low' might not be his.
More specifically, Rob, how low is the monthly fee for 300 cameras across 50 stores?
Sorry, great question... MSRP ranges from $100 to $200 per month / store depending on camera count. Most Retailers are in the $150 range. This includes POS Integration (Exception Based Reporting & Case Management). Video alone is useful, but Video with POS for Retailers is a game changer. I can fully appreciate that this may still be too high a price point for your Lorex Customer. Our reference list is outstanding from Chick fil A to Bebe Stores to Tim Hortons.
My apologies again, if I am using this site inappropriately as a sale pitch.
Hi, We have a solution that's software based but on sites that size would not charge for camera licences. There is also a free CMS for monitoring the security and the health of the store systems. A licence can also be added at a later date to include POS integration and analytics at a very reasonable price. Let me know if you need further information.
Kind regards
Martin Meakins
Video Analysis Solutions Ltd
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