Subscriber Discussion

Can A VMS Scale To 200k+ Cameras?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Dec 24, 2018

I was asked today if there is any VMS that can manage over 200k cameras and thousands of users in a single instance (not federated)?

Do you know of any? 

Merry Xmas

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Are all the cameras running at QCIF and 1 FPS?

Otherwise, no.

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MD
Matthew Del Salto
Dec 24, 2018
Hudson Security
Most vendors max out per server/instance at 128 or 256 due to cpu threads. Once you start passing 1k cameras it becomes common sense to start looking at federated/multi server solutions.
JH
John Honovich
Dec 24, 2018
IPVM

#1, what do you mean by 'a single instance'? Does that mean all cameras recording on a single server or? I assume you don't but it appears to be interpreted that way. Can you clarify what you are looking for?

Also, I would not put this in a binary 'yes' or 'no' response when it comes to a VMS managing tens of thousands of cameras across hundreds of servers. Some VMSes will work better or worse on certain features (where scaling has a bigger impact, i.e., searching across all cameras, etc.).

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Dec 24, 2018

Hi John,

I was refering to the whole system capacity not a single recorder. 

Is there a limit to the number of NVRs and channels a single VMS can manage?

i assume federation will hit some limit as well

 

U
Undisclosed #4
Dec 24, 2018

Example,

Avigilon can handle 30000 cameras per site

meaning 100 servers with 300 cameras each

 

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Dec 24, 2018

Ok thats is good scale but not near 200k. 

How much can Genetec and Mileston can scale without federation for example?

i know March has some large installs in major banks. I bet those needs to be over 100k camera systems (unless they are distributed)

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 24, 2018
IPVM

I bet those needs to be over 100k camera systems (unless they are distributed)

What do you mean unless they are distributed? Banks, by definitions, are going to have recorders in various places. Are you treating 'distributed' different than 'centralized'? If so, how do you define those terms?

UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Dec 24, 2018

Banks usually utilize distributed recording. When I said distributed I meant many standalone VMS compare to a centrelized management with distributed DVR/NVR in the branchs. 

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 24, 2018
IPVM

Banks usually utilize distributed recording. When I said distributed I meant many standalone VMS compare to a centrelized management with distributed DVR/NVR in the branchs.

I don't see your distinction. Whether the VMS software is in an appliance (like a DVR / NVR) or it is running on COTS hardware, VMS / NVRs typically have enterprise management capabilities on 'top' of the server / recorders.

In particular, it's possible to have 'many standalone VMS' but more typically you have enterprise management capabilities that manage / control the 'individual' VMS instances.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified

So this is allowed or not?

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Dec 24, 2018

Think YouTube.  It’s a video service with millions of video inputs and sources, many source types and viewed based on subscriptions and permissions by millions. 

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U
Undisclosed #4
Dec 24, 2018

"Think of YouTube!"

Sure,

Google has about one million servers around the world

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Dec 24, 2018

Thanks. However I am looking for on-prem VMS for security not entertainment 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Dec 24, 2018

Milestone did a simulation using 1 million streams and their high end main frame servers a few years ago.

As others have said, where would you install that many cameras and users in a single installation?

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 24, 2018
IPVM

In general, you want to see how a real 100,000 camera VMS system works.

At some (generally trivial) level, they are all 'unlimited', in the system that computers can hold millions of records (whether that is records of cameras or motion events or recording schedules, etc.).

The practical problem comes in with latency, reliability, etc.

For example, with 200,000 cameras, depending on how the system is designed and implemented, it might take 100 seconds or 10 minutes to return the results to a basic query. In such situations, it might 'work' but it would not work well enough to satisfy most users. 

Another example would be making changes. When you are dealing with so many cameras, a functionality that works manually (enter in information X one by one) may be untenable with hundreds of thousands of cameras. A vendor might say "Sure, just enter it one at a time 200,000 times", that VMS 'can' do it but pretty terrible, while another system may implement automation tactics to significantly reduce the time and error involved.

So to your question:

any VMS that can manage

I think most would argue that they 'can' but how well they actually do is hard to determine unless they have real installations at those scales. In my experience, typically really big installs have 'weird' problems that only are uncovered at scale and are generally not publicly promoted, as it is not in the interest of either the VMS nor customer.

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U
Undisclosed #5
Dec 24, 2018

who has 200K cameras in one physical location?

My problem is with the 'not federated' clarifier.

This is what federated architecture is designed for...

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 24, 2018
IPVMU Certified
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U
Undisclosed #5
Dec 24, 2018

how many petaflop/s are required to host 200K cameras on one server?

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 26, 2018
IPVMU Certified

fwiw, that video is a bit obsolete, a lot has happened in three years...

U
Undisclosed #5
Dec 26, 2018

lol... the video link I used was intended to show that 200K cameras are never - and would never be - hosted on one server.

It was the title of the video - not it's current technical validity - that caused me to choose it. 

Avatar
Clint Hays
Dec 25, 2018

That's an open ended question, and so an open ended "Yes" is my best response.

 

You seem a bit all over the place with your question and responses such as federation. I think you feel federation means beyond one building/location, but theres a lot more here. Are you asking what software can manage that many feeds on one site? What about storage, redundancy, server physical size and heat output??

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U
Undisclosed #5
Dec 25, 2018

Clint, I think you are on to something.... and I think that John H has also tried to break down exactly what the issue actually is.  But more is required from the OP.

As I, and others, have already posted - and I think many others reading understand - federated architecture is specifically designed to take on the challenge of multi-site operational management of huge numbers of video feeds (from whatever sources).

I - along with others apparently - do not understand the requirements from the OP....

without a firmer understanding of the actual requirements for the OPs application it is impossible to be helpful.

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Dec 25, 2018

Think of a federal org or a national/international company that has offices in all major city in each state (e.g. remote location) and like to manage all cameras from a single enterprise server (central site). Not just view which can be done cia PISM like applications. 

The central site is the one that needs to manage all 200k+ camera and manage user access for monitoring and investigation. 

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U
Undisclosed #6
Dec 26, 2018

Simple, change the way your indexing access to the stream. The VMS is irrelevant at that level.

I will suggest that large systems will need an Alexa like HMI to interface with a large database.

Think of driver licenses, do you think they type in your name? John Doe, then have to filter 1.4 million results?

There is an easier way to interface, not going to say exactly how it's done but enough information is given for at least one of the layers.

If you stay in the old frame of mind, good luck stacking a bunch of hardware.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
Dec 27, 2018

Of course it can.  Too many DVR people think of a 'system' being a DVR.  It's not, a system is the whole shebang.  It's a bunch of smaller systems combined into single login.  Don't understand what the big deal is?  

And don't ever compare video surveillance with YouTube.  YouTube sends the same video to thousands, millions of people (streaming service).  Surveillance seldom ever works that way.  

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Avatar
Raul Alvaro Fraser
Dec 28, 2018

Sounds like an interesting project. From my perspective, I would contact Milestone pre-sales in your region, and see what they say.

BA
Branko Angebrant
Dec 28, 2018

Indigo Vision VMS platform can do it easily as it doesn't have central server, therefor no bottleneck there. Also their NVRs are the biggest in the market (biggest one 600ch with 1.5PB storage). Unlimited number of NVRs and users in the system and beautiful thing is those instances doesn't require any license at all. Even for redundant NVRs, you just need the device itself. Only license that IV is asking for is per camera in the system + SUP. 

Main concern here would be to design proper IP network which can handle such amount of video streams. So Cisco or Juniper would be my recommendation with proper deign like access and aggregation level switches.

SS
Steve Shores
Jan 07, 2019

I work on a Federated FLIR Latitude system of nearly 20K cameras every day. Anything is possible, but as Clint quite rightly states, Network, Storage, Heat/Cooling, etc etc are major factors. Redundancy for me is a hot mirror site/DR so I'm already recording circa 40K streams!

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