Would the old "Colbert-eating-popcorn" meme be appropriate here?
The HDcctv Shakeup
Published Oct 31, 2013 04:00 AM
Two years ago, we projected that companies going for either Axis VSaaS or the HDcctv Alliance were making desperate moves. Now, it is more clear than ever that both are the case.
HDcctv's challenges should be no surprise to anyone who has seen their disastrous marketing. Now, though, the fundamental composition of the 'Alliance' has been shaken up.
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Comments (19)
MI
Matt Ion
Oct 31, 2013UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #1
Oct 31, 2013How many years they have been around? and they are still trying to justify HDCCTV technology in CCTV industry. It will always have niche market, but unfortunately, IMHO, the boat sailed out a long time ago.
JH
John Honovich
Oct 31, 2013It's been 4 years - 2009 (see our original coverage). There's certainly some (limited) adoption of non standardized HD-SDI but the HDcctv Alliance has been inconsequential at best, and detrimental at worse, in this.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Nov 01, 2013I have a somewhat related question. Yesterday I received an email from a Chinese vendor touting 1000 TVL analog cameras. What exactly is up with that? Can someone explain how that works, how it compares to the HDCC guys? I'm told that a 960H type DVR is required to take advantage of it.
I'm almost embarassed to be asking this because it seems so elementary, but I've been in this business over 12 years and I'm confused by this.
JH
John Honovich
Nov 01, 2013If you get a spam email from a Chinese manufacturer, you know it must be good!
800TVL, 900TVL, 1000TVL, etc. are all analog specifications - 'super' ones at that. It's mostly just spec gamesmanship and not something that makes a real difference on live viewing or recording. See this discussion.
960H is yet another 'thing'. This requires special encoder cards / chips to process. It delivers a wider aspect ratio than traditional analog (960 x 480 vs 640 x 480). It's a tweener in terms of pixel count, more than analog, less than HD. See our 960H discussion.
HDcctv is completely different than either of those. It is digital 720 or 1080 HD video. You need a special encoder for these cameras as well. See our HD SDI / HDcctv tutorial.
Of course, this gets at the problem, so many incompatible, small market share offerings makes for sales and long term support problems. It's just not worth the hassle or risk, especially when Chinese HD IP kits are so inexpensive.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Nov 01, 2013Thanks John. that linked discussion was exactly about what I was wondering. So if using a standard D1 resolution DVR, is it safe to say that there really is no advantage to these higher TVL cameras. (I have a tech that swears he can see the difference.)
I'm curious what the maximum visible (usable) resolution in terms of TVL's for
CIF
D1
JH
John Honovich
Nov 01, 2013Whenever someone says they can 'see the difference' between two options, I ask them to show me images. In cases like this (600TVL vs 700TVL vs 800TVL, etc.), typically it is extremely minor and not anything significant enough that one shows a face as a blur and the other is crisp and detailed.
In terms of CIF and D1, every analog camera is basically 540TVL or higher, which I suspect is more than enough even for D1. That said, differences can exist between cameras, regardless of the TVL count, depending on the design and components of the camera and lens.
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Nov 04, 2013Hi,
I'm working for a manufacturer (not pixim) and I've done a lot of testing and reading on this 6-7 years ago and although this paper does not explain all the theory in extreme details, it gives a clear answer that correlates to the testing I've done back.
Above 540TVL it is pretty much useless in your Analog security system.
And I would be surprised that the TV & A2D converter used in DVRs and encoders can now make a big use of 600+ TVL.
Go IP and Megapixel if you need more.
Brian Karas
Nov 01, 2013hdcctv's big selling point really seemed to revolve around the "complexity" of IP camera setup. That, and the reuse of existing coax, which didn't seem to be doable in many cases.
Now there are companies offering POE NVR's that reduce some of the IP setup steps.
The supposed benefits of hd-sdi don't seem to outweigh the limitations of very limited resolution options, very limited manufacturer support.
I still think this technology is going to be the laserdisc of the CCTV world.
MI
Matt Ion
Nov 01, 2013"I still think this technology is going to be the laserdisc of the CCTV world."
Love it, just love it :)
Carl Lindgren
Nov 02, 2013I found it revealing that in a LinkedIn discussion last week, Todd Rockoff, Chairman of the HDcctv Alliance admitted, as he said it, "We estimate the share of certified HDcctv-compliant cameras to be about 10% of the total HDcctv cameras this year.". That's only $100 million versus HD-SDI's $900 million sales.
It's readily apparent that despite claims of technical superiority over HD-SDI, the HDcctv Alliance has failed to get its message across. Key factors are the snail's pace of actual introduction of HDcctv XR, HDcctv CX and HDcctv 2.0 which the HDcctv Alliance has touted for at least four years and Mr. Rockoff's confrontational marketing methods. To the latter, I believe the HDcctv Alliance has alienated many in the industry whose support they desperately needed.
JH
John Honovich
Nov 02, 2013The global market for cameras is ~$5 - 6 Billion USD, so he is claiming that HD SDI / HDcctv is 16% of the market? Just absurd. And obviously not the first time. Maybe if he said that total sales of HD SDI and HDcctv were about $100 million, that might be in the ballpark.
Carl Lindgren
Nov 02, 2013His original claim was "Worldwide HDcctv/HD-SDI equipment sales are blowing past US$1B this year, growing at 1000% CAGR." I assume that means cameras, DVR's and peripherals. Not having access to reliable sales data, I didn't question his figures but I think he may have been forthcoming when he admitted HDcctv cameras contributed only 10% to total HD-SDI (or as he likes to call it HDcctv, including non-compliant and compliant products).
If he was correct in his percentages and you are correct in your estimate of HD-SDI camera sales, that would make HDcctv camera sales only $10 million. No wonder there was a shakeup in the Alliance. I would guess Todd is holding onto his position as Chairman by the tips of his fingernails...
In any case, I still get a kick out of his claims about so-called technical advances on the horizon. CX, XR and 2.0 have been his technical talking points for years yet no equipment with those capabilities is available for sale. As I pointed out, IP has had all of those capabilities for years; either as a basic component of the technology or via inexpensive add-ons.
JH
John Honovich
Nov 02, 2013First of all, he is implying only $100 million HD SDI / HDcctv sales in 2012 (based on a claim of $1 billion USD 2013 sales and a year over year growth rate of 1000% (10x).
$100 million HD SDI / HDcctv sales in 2012 is totally reasonable. That is less than 1% of all surveillance sales globally.
1000% CAGR / annual growth rate is a joke. No product category increases 10x in a single year. Even for Todd, this is absurd. And if something grew 10x / $900 million in a year, everyone would be well aware of it, because it's such massive increase that it means vast numbers of dealers, customers and manufacturers would be part of it. Do anyone of you see HD SDI / HDcctv exploding this year?
Also, if it's a 1000% CAGR (compounded annual growth rate), then next year HD SDI / HDcctv will account for 75% of total global surveillance sales.
Listen, Todd does this all the time.
For example, in 2010, he claimed that HDcctv sales would be twice that of IP cameras in 2013 (this year).
Obviously absurd then. Obviously no where close to being true now. IP cameras still outsell HD SDI / HD cctv cameras ~50 to 1.
So Todd will confuse some people in the short run with imaginary forecasts but it's little more than smoke and mirrors that soon enough is proved false.
BN
Bill Nolan
Nov 03, 2013This is not unexpected. Over 4 years I can't recall any forecast or anything near it, occurring. At least the extra Income coming into from the new members will allow Todd to keep us entertained for a while longer.
Ethan Ace
Jan 08, 2014Just noticed that Dahua is now the only steering committee member. Very diverse committee!
U
Undisclosed #4
Jan 09, 2014Why is IC Realtime listed as a Manufacturing Member? Aren't they just a Dahua OEM? That's basically double counting.
JH
John Honovich
Jan 09, 2014I am sure they don't consider themselves 'just a Dahua oem' :)
If the Alliance counted for anything, I suppose it would be good for keeping up appearances.
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Jan 09, 2014Todd looking for a job, I certainly don't see him preaching his alliance anymore.