Free Surveillance Quote Reviews

Not to be facetious (but on cue with your pushback expectation), when you buy a car do you ask the reseller/dealer to itemize the cost for tires, transmission, catalytic converter, flux capacitor, etc.?? Don't most people feel like they're making an informed purchase when buying a vehicle??

When an integrator provides an itemized list of REAL part numbers with cutsheets and a site diagram and/or line diagram, he/she is taking responsibility for the system as a whole. Referrences and/or job locations are probably better questions to verify that he/she is a trusted integrator and that they stand behind their systems.

Itemized pricing only leads to bid shopping which has happened to me personally in private and public sector jobs. And if that is a sticking point, I'd rather lose the job than do the homework for the buyer/project manager to take my design and hand it to his buddy to install and get a kick back on the side ... which I know NEVER happens anywhere ever.

To reinforce what John says, you could probably test-drive a car and/or read reviews in websites/magazines you trust to get a fairly good idea of what to expect, the dealer has very little to do with the product you finally get, something which is not applicable to a surveillance system tailor made for your premises to fit your specific needs.

However, the real challenge with references is that most buyers are too lazy and/or inadequately informed/educated to ask the right questions from the people they are being referred to. Most people would tend to simply ask "are you happy with the service provided by the integrator" rather than "how many complaints have you had in the last one year. How much time did the integrator take to respond to each". Since they do not ask the right questions they tend not to compare apples to apples but to only compare prices.

I think those who classify themselves as being the better ones need to educate their potential customers on the right kind of questions to ask from the competitors.

John,

What will be the guiding IPVM policies on 'non-disclosure' be for information sent to you?

thank you,

So will IPVM collecting a database of dealers quotes and invoices?

Having been both an integrator and a manufacturers sales representative, both direct & independent, I can sympathize with integrators trying to avoid doing a great deal of engineering & design work (typically not something they charge for) only to see a lower price bid win the deal or, the encombent wins the deal because they were allowed to adjust thier quotes based on all the other quotes received which the user has provided to them. The engineering of a good proposal (site walk, research etc) has a cost associated with it that most integrators incorporate as a cost of doing business. If this gets abused too often, it affects thier bottom line. I also agree with John that the line item detail is necessary if the user is to make an informed decision about which integrators quote will provide the best value to them and meet thier needs. That said, I strongly believe that the vast majority of end users are not that unethical and rarely share one bidders design with another. So, I like to give the benefit of doubt to the end user in the interest of educating them and provide the line item detail. If they turn out to be unethical and share your work with others, chalk it up to the risk of doing business and move on to the next opportunity where it is unlikely you'll have another unethical user to deal with. John, a suggestion would be for IPVM to not only review the quotes for the user but educate the user on the ethical and appropriate handling of each integrators submission.

As a top tier integrator I was very happy to find IPVM as I found the unbiased testing of video surveillance equipment very beneficial. I think it is important to provide this testing data to my end users in order to provide them with the highest quality system that their budget affords. This testing is something that I try to do myself so this site allowed me to free up cycles and focus more on my clients.

It is no secret that there are many unscupulous folks in our industry that call themselves integrators. Some mean to be unscupulous, some are simply unscrupulous because they do not understand the technology. As the old line goes "You don't know what you don't know." Competing with these individuals is not an easy thing when you have a client that is uneducated as well.

Additionally, I have my coop-etition. You read that right, coop-etition. This is the manufacturers rep that I called to discuss a deal I am working and the distributer who I called for pricing. Intentional or not, there are times when information about the deal gets out to my competitors through these venues. Now a system that I have 40 hours of design and meeting time in ends up in the hands of one of these unscrupulous companies.

I already have enough issues keeping a deal quiet without a another entity like IPVM having the knowledge of the deal and pricing. And I am not keeping it quiet because I am raking the client over the coals, but we have all lost deals over less than $1000 before and furthermore we have all lost deals to companies that we know missed parts on the project and slid in under our number.

It seems to me that I may have misunderstood the intent of the IPVM website. I undertand educating end users and integrators alike, but now it seems that you have expanded into the consultant field and no matter how many time you say that you are very confidential I see it as advesarial. You have a good thing going here John, don't jeopardize your integrity by allowing the opportunity for someone to accuse you of steering deals.

I agree with Duane that you are probably opening yourself up for accusations like that AND, alienating some of your current members - integrators & security consultants - who may now see your model developing into a competitor to them and one that's providing the service for free. Hard to compete with Free. Could hurt the reputation you've created for being a neutral and reliable source for information and discussion. Disappointing but I hope you don't bann me from the site for expressing my opinion because I still find value in the information. I just might not be as quick to refer others to sign up for membership, particularly customers, as I have been in the past.

I too feel a disturbance in the Force. Collecting proposals for general study in trends and statistics is one thing. Collecting them for consultation review with a user is another. I would love IPVM if they reviewed one of my proposals and told the customer it was the best thing since sliced bread, and I would hate IPVM if they said it was the worst idea since the Edsel. Then what if you approve a proposal and it for whatever fails miserably? By no fault of your own, but now your named in a lawsuit along with an integrator whether justly or not.

Why go there...?

Glad to see I am not the only one that sees issues with this.

IPVM = the NSA of CCTV :)

As an end user, IPVM has been a great tool for helping me learn to be a better CCTV system administrator, have intelligent conversations with our integrator partners, and better ensure that what those integrators are providing - parts and service - is what we need. In some cases it has even helped us open an integrators eyes to a new or different product than what they primarily sell/install. While I doubt I would take IPVM up on the offer to review a quote, it is good to know that resource is available should we need it.

And as for the review service being free? I pay a $199 annual membership fee . . . with the POSSIBILITY of being one of three monthly lucky review recipients. That ain't free. It's more than I pay for any of my association dues, even.

I'm not sure how many members IPVM has, but I would guess that 36 (12 months x 3 reviews) is a very small percentage of end users.

An uninformed end user does nobody any good. It means the integrator has not clearly laid out reasonable expectation for the system and will cost him/her in the end. I don’t think anyone is implying (at least no integrator worth their weight) that it’s their objective to keep anyone in the dark. What I was saying earlier in the discussion, is that I don’t believe that itemized prices inform the user any more about what they’re getting and how it will work.

I hope you see that what integrators (speaking for myself I guess) are worried about is that IPVM will undermine their ‘authority’ as an expert/knowledgeable in the field over something like: “try this camera instead, it could save you $x per camera”. While it might be an accurate statement, there are no absolute truths in designing systems. Integrators use and don’t use certain products also based on their own experiences not just what they read and research (see all discussions of Avigilon). If IPVM were to recommend a product I don’t support/like to use, it would instantly invalidate my design in the eyes of the end user regardless of if my design is suitable to the customer's needs/budget, complete, capable and fairly priced.

I assume IPVM review of end user quotes / proposals will be limited to the end users based in certain areas of USA only.

Also, how would an end user believe what you are suggesting is better than the integrator quote, which would be based on actual site survey?

John, while I greatly value the information and help that IPVM delivers to me and my company on a regular basis, I too see some issues with your decision. Offering general information on hardware and design principles is a good idea that obviously works well. Doing case studies on a particular proposal also has its place. Picking apart individual proposals without having any involvement in the project seems like a bad idea. We are a 'value add' integrator who rarely competes on price alone, we instead offer systems/designs we can stand behind and try to educate the customer on why our solution is the best. I honestly have no doubt that I would be able to address any points you or your staff made if my proposal were being reviewed. All of that being said I still am concerned about the following points:

• IPVM staff members would have no knowledge of the client or the location to consider.
• You might not have enough information on the local market.
• I know you know your stuff John but how can we be sure the staff member assigned is capable of advising the client properly?
• What process would be in place to counter your recommendations - how far could/should the disputes go?
• Seems like there may be a conflict of interest for IPVM. Especially if the end user and the integrator are both members?
• I believe your existing ‘best practices’ documents etc are all that is really needed if the end user is committed to finding the right information.

These are just some quick thoughts, I am sure there are plenty of other unanswered questions that will be addressed as this service matures.

I hope that your decision to do this benefits all involved, or at least those that deserve the benefit. I guess only time will tell.

Let me see if I can understand this…

I bust my tail to find an opportunity. I spend hours / days walking the facility looking at each potential camera location cataloging information about the scene (lighting, environmental, scene complexity etc…) considering things like future vegetation growth of the new trees that were planted last week… considering all sorts of things that go into the installation, what it is going to take to drive a lift next to a building that is surrounded by landscaping… etc..etc…

And you are going to review my proposal in your office and make recommendations to the end user about my proposal? Potentially hurting my reputation based on a quarter of the information that I have worked to obtain?

The very last entity that I would expect to get between my deal is IPVM.

Have you ever been in a sales capacity in this competitive market?

My thought is that if a customer is going to request line item breakdown then his plan is to shop us and get the lowest bidder. I have seen this over and over again. In order to alleviate that, I will offer the primary hardware & software components but not every item necessary to install at their location. But if requested, we can provide professional security design services at a fixed fee/rate then they will have a complete RFP ready to send out to all bidders. We pay our Security System Engineers top money to provide the best solution from end to end, and often includes custom API development for integration at the Enterprise level...most of the time this overhead is baked into the project total.