Great thanks. We just have a group that is proposing to start using this product instead of running wiring for a large number of access control installations.
Why test it now, is Wiegand only and unless its break-fix for another Wiegand Radio why would you sell/use this device? Look forward to the OSPD version than I am interested in it, lots of potential applications.
I am not looking to use it but looking to dissuade others if applicable. They were told by the manufacturer at GSX all kinds of wonderful stories and that OSDP was on the way, or already available. However, I doubt the technology and performance would be drastically different.
I'm a little concerned about the security aspect. On their technology page, they highlight chirp modulation, frequency hopping ("using a pseudorandom sequence known to both transmitter and receiver"), and AES-128 ("includes a proprietary over-the-air rekeying process for key distribution and other information obscuring techniques").
Proprietary protocols like this scare me, even if they have all those extra things like chirp modulation and frequency hopping. Who is testing this protocol? I doubt it has undergone one millionth of the scrutiny as, say 802.11 has gone. If you create your own protocols, you immediately lose the added wisdom (and foibles) of all the people that worked to create the standard protocols. I am happy to see that they are using AES, though.
The "proprietary" part is scary for other reasons. I've heard of companies that try to hide blatant incompetence behind proprietary protocols, and then keep the details private because they're trade secrets. According to Kerckhoff's second principle, the security of the system should not rely on the secrecy of the algorithm. If the system really is secure, it should be no problem at all for enemies to know exactly how the protocol works.
Would Sure-Fi's team be willing to publicize the details of their protocol (at least the portions relating to security)? This would allow for more third-parties to test it. If Sure-Fi is afraid to let people know exactly how their system works, that's a bad sign.
I tested a pair of these to assess the range. While very impressive, it did not really come close to the "1 mile with obstructions" claim. It worked perfectly within the office park where I put the head end unit, even through a couple of warehouses. Taking the reader side for a walk with a reader and a 7Ah battery, I was able get consistent transmission to about half a mile, through multiple industrial facilities, but above that coverage was spotty, depending on exactly what was between the units. At one spot, I got it to work at three quarters of a mile.
I also played around with the config app and called tech support to get a feel for support. I did have an issue with updating the device firmware through the app, but the support response was quick and helpful.
Is their product using IEEE 802.11ah (Wi-Fi HaLow = 900MHz Wi-Fi)? Wi-Fi HaLow protocol should have enough bandwidth for video applications (and longer wireless distances).
We have been using these for a couple months now on several projects and they work very well. We've been impressed. Well designed and some thought went into the field install/testing aspects. IE: Comes with a 9v battery and test cable/plug ready to go. Small screwdriver included. DIN rail mount capable. Detachable terminal strips. Easy terminal identification for wiring on the face of the product. It's a straight-forward product that just works.
900 MHz bounces off obstructions and can eventually find its way to the receiver. The problem is multi-path interference that comes in due to multiple reflections off different objects. These signals arrive out-of-phase and tend to complicate the detection of data. They have tried to overcome this by slowing down the data rate, thus it becomes easier to filter out the weaker signals, or to synchronize to the clock of the most prevalent signal.
What they are saying is definitely possible, but each scenario is its own case.
I have used them several times and they work great. In one location the gate is about a 1/4 mile from the far side of the metal building and then it transmits through about 10 sheetrock walls with metal studs which is about another 250'. Have had no issues at that location in over a year. Have a total of 3 sets at this site.
First off, how can this be compared to Wifi, considering it's very limited bandwidth? Number Two, AMEREN power company, and I assume other power companies, use 900 mhz for their connected meters. I have used 900mhz for PTP backhauls, only to have AMEREN call my client municipality to say that we are interfering with their signal. Now I understand that it is an unlicensed band, but most city administrators cave in to the demands of the utility company. Perhaps this would not be a problem with this unit operating in burst mode. However, if you set one of these up transmitting constant data, you most likely will hear from the power company.
In my opinion, Sure-Fi devices are not parasitic. They do not draw power from the reader. They wire to the reader in the same way a standard access control board would. They do introduce additional RF signals, but typically above the door, not right behind the reader.
HID responded, stating these Sure-Fi devices are not part of their parasite advisory.
Their full statement:
Devices of the nature that you have mentioned are currently not included in our announcement. Devices that interact with our readers are under continued evaluation and we will keep you updated as conclusive insights are available. Please let me know if you have any questions.
Hi Brian, I'm referring to the technology they offer (chirp modulation, frequency hopping and AES-128 encryption), not an expert on that field but it would be great to know if someone else has look into it. thanks
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Comments (25)
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Are there any plans to test the claims by IPVM? If not does anyone have any experience?
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Kevin Mundy
Why test it now, is Wiegand only and unless its break-fix for another Wiegand Radio why would you sell/use this device? Look forward to the OSPD version than I am interested in it, lots of potential applications.
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Undisclosed Integrator #2
I'm a little concerned about the security aspect. On their technology page, they highlight chirp modulation, frequency hopping ("using a pseudorandom sequence known to both transmitter and receiver"), and AES-128 ("includes a proprietary over-the-air rekeying process for key distribution and other information obscuring techniques").
Proprietary protocols like this scare me, even if they have all those extra things like chirp modulation and frequency hopping. Who is testing this protocol? I doubt it has undergone one millionth of the scrutiny as, say 802.11 has gone. If you create your own protocols, you immediately lose the added wisdom (and foibles) of all the people that worked to create the standard protocols. I am happy to see that they are using AES, though.
The "proprietary" part is scary for other reasons. I've heard of companies that try to hide blatant incompetence behind proprietary protocols, and then keep the details private because they're trade secrets. According to Kerckhoff's second principle, the security of the system should not rely on the secrecy of the algorithm. If the system really is secure, it should be no problem at all for enemies to know exactly how the protocol works.
Would Sure-Fi's team be willing to publicize the details of their protocol (at least the portions relating to security)? This would allow for more third-parties to test it. If Sure-Fi is afraid to let people know exactly how their system works, that's a bad sign.
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Dan Droker
IPVMU Certified | 10/03/19 08:03pm
I tested a pair of these to assess the range. While very impressive, it did not really come close to the "1 mile with obstructions" claim. It worked perfectly within the office park where I put the head end unit, even through a couple of warehouses. Taking the reader side for a walk with a reader and a 7Ah battery, I was able get consistent transmission to about half a mile, through multiple industrial facilities, but above that coverage was spotty, depending on exactly what was between the units. At one spot, I got it to work at three quarters of a mile.
I also played around with the config app and called tech support to get a feel for support. I did have an issue with updating the device firmware through the app, but the support response was quick and helpful.
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Loren Schoenzeit
Is their product using IEEE 802.11ah (Wi-Fi HaLow = 900MHz Wi-Fi)? Wi-Fi HaLow protocol should have enough bandwidth for video applications (and longer wireless distances).
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Justin Gant
We tried one set of these out instead of repairing a damaged buried line and it works great through about 300’ between the buildings.
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Greg Levorchick
We have been using these for a couple months now on several projects and they work very well. We've been impressed. Well designed and some thought went into the field install/testing aspects. IE: Comes with a 9v battery and test cable/plug ready to go. Small screwdriver included. DIN rail mount capable. Detachable terminal strips. Easy terminal identification for wiring on the face of the product. It's a straight-forward product that just works.
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Undisclosed Integrator #3
900 MHz bounces off obstructions and can eventually find its way to the receiver. The problem is multi-path interference that comes in due to multiple reflections off different objects. These signals arrive out-of-phase and tend to complicate the detection of data. They have tried to overcome this by slowing down the data rate, thus it becomes easier to filter out the weaker signals, or to synchronize to the clock of the most prevalent signal.
What they are saying is definitely possible, but each scenario is its own case.
Former GE MCBD Engineer (GE-MARC-V) (AMPS)
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Steve Stowe
I have used them several times and they work great. In one location the gate is about a 1/4 mile from the far side of the metal building and then it transmits through about 10 sheetrock walls with metal studs which is about another 250'. Have had no issues at that location in over a year. Have a total of 3 sets at this site.
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Undisclosed Integrator #4
First off, how can this be compared to Wifi, considering it's very limited bandwidth? Number Two, AMEREN power company, and I assume other power companies, use 900 mhz for their connected meters. I have used 900mhz for PTP backhauls, only to have AMEREN call my client municipality to say that we are interfering with their signal. Now I understand that it is an unlicensed band, but most city administrators cave in to the demands of the utility company. Perhaps this would not be a problem with this unit operating in burst mode. However, if you set one of these up transmitting constant data, you most likely will hear from the power company.
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Undisclosed Integrator #1
Is there a way for anyone with an HID contact to see if Sure-Fi is included in their parasite device warning and warranty voiding policies?
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David Johnson
Elevator cab retro fit would seem an obvious application.
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User 1
Hello IPVM team, is there any plan to perform a full test to this solution and its "securities"?
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