Sexism and the ISC West Party Girls

Even in 2013, sex still sells. It's a basic truth of advertising that will never change, no matter how much people don't like it. 'The use of women as bait' may be 'unacceptable' but the simple fact is, it works, and it's far from unique to the surveillance business. Check out an auto show sometime... boat show... home and garden show... computer trade show... a friend of mine attended a major mining conference in town here recently, and it was the same thing there (though to a smaller degree, as it wasn't so much a "trade show").

As for your opposite scenario, of the short-shorts-clad college boys... I somehow doubt it would scare many people off. In a male-dominated industry, it would simply not be as effective - wasted marketing money, as it were.

Actually, I recall many years ago (1994 or 95, I think it was), when LANtastic was a small but solid player in the networking market... their presence at COMDEX include buff male AND female models, dressed in workout garb... I don't recall exactly what the buzzline was, something about strength in networking, but it was plenty effective, and nobody seemed at all put off by the ripped guys handing out ad copy and trinkets.

Cover it up, rail against it, disguise it, sweep it under the rug, deny it all you like... sex sells, and always will.

First and foremost, this is a question of ethics, not effectiveness. Should we, as an industry, support this? Is this the right thing to do? 

As for it 'always will', things do change but only if people speak up and fight for what is right.

Finally, it might help short term sales, but it hurts long term by discouraging women from wanting to be in the industry. It's no secret than girls are far outperforming boys scholastically. For example, see trends in college degrees:

Sure, 'selling sex' helps a handful of manufacturers but at the expense of the industry's talent pool. You really think this is fair to women? Do you think women should simply ignore that they are being objectified in industry events?

Beyond being sexist, don't people realize its just flat out stupid? I guess to each their own, but last I checked this industry isnt dominated by 18-22 year olds, unfortunately just 40-50 year olds who like to pretend they're 18-22...

Note: See discussion on this at Hacker News.

Interesting comment by one person there:

"A larger issue is that attendees will stop taking all women at the event seriously. It's like a spam filter for the brain: if you want to talk seriously about a product, find a man. Please note that even women attendees do this to each other. See this discussion especially the comments"

Doesn't there need to be some type of discrimination for something to be sexist?

This is like saying it is Racist just because there is a <insert race> person on the advertisement.

No its not, also, put your name on it.

Undisclosed, this sentence from the Hacker News forum that John linked to above sums it up well:

"It's using women as passive objects instead of as participants in the show. Women and men have different roles in the show. The men are taken seriously and the women are not. That's why it's sexist."

Undisclosed, putting a picture of a women on an advertisement is not inherently sexist.

However, labelling them 'Party Girls', putting them in short shorts and having them hold a tool to clean cameras is what makes it sexist. Does that make sense to you?

I'm probably going to get eaten alive for this, and maybe it's my age showing but I am able to (and do) look at women as both sex objects and valid businesspeople, depending on the circumstances.

You can't get away from sex, it makes the world go around. There are many people of both sexes who think this aversion to any kind of sexuality in a business setting is unhealthy to the human mind. After all, the desire to reproduce is a healthy part of human makeup - without it, we might as well be dodo birds (long extinct).

The problem is being able to separate the one outlook from the other. Other cultures are able to do so, and it's not from repressing sexuality but from embracing it. One of the faults, I guess, of western culture.

Mutual respect is hugely important, even in a casual business relationship. Not only does a booth babe or domegirl set the wrong tone for a fruitful, honesty based relationship, it engenders disrespect on both ends:

Like Sean points out, the sweaty ex-jock 40 something ISC attendee is focused on putting the moves on an attractive woman who is being paid to be around him, and the manufacturer is trying to pander to the horomones of potential customers rather than keeping discussion focused on the technical merits of the product.

Where is the honor in that?

The WSC response seems carefully worded to point out (and sidestep the sexism question) that they are there to "promote the professional women of our industry, and highlight the positive growth and acceptance of professional women within the security industry as a whole." (and they used that same 2 word descriptor again at the end...)

Are they stating that they only care about women who wear suits in our industry, and it is not their role to care about any women that wear sexy outfits and cowboy boots (i.e. not professional women)?

Are there other advocacy groups who just advocate for sub-sections of their chosen oppressed or underrespresented groups? Does PETA have a lesser known sister group that only advocates for animals that they think are 'acceptable'?

Say it aint so, WSC! :(

@Marty...

Personally, I see WSC's comments referring to women in a "professional" role rather than those in the role of a "booth babe". Which by the way is the first time I've ever heard of the term "booth babe".

The role of WSC is actually to promote women in the security industry, not take on the many issues women face in the world in general. WSC takes on the issues that I, as a security professional, face in this industry and there are many. WSC can't take on all the issues women face. There are just too many. It is an uphill climb for women but every day brings some small amount of progress. Nothing/no one changes overnight...

Listening (or rather, reading) to the comments/interaction with people on the IPVM forum has been fantastic... why? Because people here just share information and knowledge without regard to appearance or gender. Here, people are in the "help" or "learn" mode. It would be nice to have that at big events like ISC or ASIS.

Btw, this is my humble opinion and only my opinion. No animals were harmed during the typing of this comment.

Margarita, I agree that the WSC should not be responsible for the issues woman face in the world generally. However, booth babes at an industry trade show is an industry specific issue impacting how women are viewed and treated in the industry.

If the WSC really wants the industry to improve its treatment of women, I do not think they should constraint themselves to promoting professional women only. They need to also call out activities and practices that demean women within the industry. The old buy club, that is the leadership of this industry, must know that it will not to be tolerated. That's why I think it's important for the WSC to take a strong stand against such events.

We are working diligently to change the market's perception but it cannot be changed overnight. WSC is involved in significant initiatives to promote and support the successful female professionals in today's market."

This gave me the impression they were. If not, I'll bring it up.

If nothing else this just highlights the fact that DotWorkz really has nothing of value to show, so in the place of an actual new product, let's go to the lowest common denominator guy and get him in. As for the guys who actually want to go talk to girls and do the whole "stays in Vegas" thing.. I bet you I can predict which event is going to be the biggest "testosterone" -fest of the week.

Sure wish I had "like" button!

@Sean

That's one of the strangest aspects to this. While I'm not sure they are promoting anything new, they offer a range of products that are 'special' use and application: cleaning tools, environmental housings, solar kits, etc...

There's plenty of ambient interest surrounding the proper use and deployment of those products. We've written a handful of posts this past year on Dotworkz offerings like 'waterproofing cameras', 'cleaning domes' and 'solar kits' that have gotten interest just on their own merit. Why not offer hands-on training into specification and install of Dotworkz gear rather than cutsheet-level banter over cocktails and eyecandy?

As others have pointed out, booth babes (and yes, Margarita, that's what they are universally known as, unfortunately) are more of a 'trade show' thing than they are a 'security industry' thing.

I'm no marketing or PR expert (nor a woman), but it would seem that this Dotworkz 'Domewizard Party Girls' issue would be an ideal way to get some spectacular PR for The WSC by simply making a vocal stand against the practice. Perception being, it's more about taking a stand for what is right, rather than a concerted effort to banish the practice 'overnight'.

As it stands now, the lackluster, vanilla response by the WSC does nothing to advance their stated cause. Further, it may even contribute to undermining this stated cause if, by ignoring what at least some see as blatant sexism, they fail to take any stand at all.

I wonder what it would take publicity-wise for one of DW's unofficial "partners" aka camera manufacturers to denounce this sort of practice and if they would change their course? For example, I'm curious what someone like Bodil Sonesson feels about events like this where her corporate logo is almost sure to be seen on marketing materials at this event. I'd love to have the connections to ask her... To the Twitter machine!

Marty, look at the poll results so far. Only a slight majority agree that the event is sexist despite the fact that the article makes the case for it.

If anything, I would say the WSC is PR savvy and realized that this would be a dangerous situation to wade in, one that could cause them far more damage with the powers that be. One senior industry woman (not in the WSC) once remarked to me that if a woman complains in this industry, powerful men will label her 'whiney' and not want to associate with her. While I am disappointed the WSC does not take a firmer stand, I can appreciate the real risk they face in doing so.

I hope this dialogue and the resulting attention helps organizations like the WSC make progress.

One senior industry woman (not in the WSC) once remarked to me that if a woman complains in this industry, powerful men will label her 'whiney' and not want to associate with her.

Thanks for saying that John, I originally stated that very same thing in my post earlier then opted to take it out for fear of being mis-understood. But it really has been (historically) the case when women bring concerns/issues like this up.

I was checking out Dotz and thought what an interesting site. Too bad they had to resort to the booth babe thing.

As Marty pointed out... it isn't just the security industry that suffers this problem. It really is the male dominated industries that women are trying to break into that have this type of "useless" marketing occuring.

Oddly enough I was reading through a SoW for a construction project and saw that there was a requirement where it would not be tolerated to do "catcalls whistles" and similar or the contractor would be fired. I thought wow, they are getting serious! It was nice to see that that type of funny business would not be tolerated.

My final note for the night:"Legendary"??? Seriously. Really watering down that term, eh DotWorkz PR department?

John,

I completely agree with your thesis - that is exactly why they don't. And I get their reasoning - I just happen to fundamentally disagree with their strategy regarding 'changing the rules'.

Bargaining from a position of weakness (not wanting to appear 'whiney') mandates your permanent occupation in that position of weakness.

Given an opportunity to bargain from a position of strength (this will not be tolerated in our industry!) and failing to capitalize, mandates your permanent occupation in the position of weakness.

People (both women and men) will follow (and champion) those that occupy positions of strength. It is innate.

To play by the very rules that were created to keep you in a position of weakness mandates you will forever remain there.

Change the rules.

It is not sexist. It is just a marketing ploy for weaker industry product. Sexism means discrimination on the basis of sex. These women want to do this. In fact, it is giving them a paycheck.

About 3-4 years ago, I saw the women at ISC West getting pictures with Ponch dressed in uniform.

Should we ban alchahol at these events also? This could possibly offend a majority of non-drinkers and former alchoholics.

Jeremy,

Based upon your statements you'll obviously never get it until you have a daughter that gets turned down for a promotion because she doesn't have a good golf game and it would be uncomfortable to take her to a strip club.

Alcoholism = Female Gender.... great analogy. Maybe you can recommend a 12 step program for Margarita (happy accident). Better make it a 6 step program, we know women probably don't have the willpower to go through all 12 steps without a man's help [/sarcasm]

Last edit: Also "Ponch"??? He was probably 60 at the time. Also he was a pretty big hero of men, of both persuasions from what I've heard...

Dotworkz are hawking “Fancy Paper Towels” attached to metal fingers: In and of itself not a very “sexy” product. I would imagine that they will do whatever it takes to get some traction in their booth and at their “VIP Party”. As Brendan Behan said: “There is no such thing as bad publicity except your own obituary”

Sean,

I do have a daughter and find your statement is without merit concerning booth babes.

I don't even have a good golf game yet I succeed in business! How many of us business professionals have been to a strip club with business people who we have just met or have even known for a while??? Since when did ISC West get a strip club? Is this strip club totally nude or do they have bottoms on with pasties?

Being a booth babe is just a job for a small percentage of men and women. Many of these men and woman...this is their best way to make a decent income. To compare booth babes to strippers in a strip club is probably pretty offensive and sexist.

My point is...this subject is overblown like most things in today’s world. You are demonizing the women of ISC West for wearing a swimsuit in a booth? What will we demonize next?

Also

Way to try to be cocky and to flip things around like a Philadelphia lawyer.... Nowhere did I say Alcoholism= Female Gender. I was suggesting that while you have your pitchforks out...you might as well go after everything else.

Being a Booth Babe is not against the law. Ethics? We live in a country with thousands of ethnicities, hundreds of religions, and etc.. So exactly...who is the boss of Ethics? The answer to that is the consumer. If you cannot tolerate booth babes, then do not go to ISC West. What a few people have a problem with, should not affect/effect the vast majority who can think for themselves. I don't care for booth babes at ISC West and ignore them and the manufacturer that hired them. I can make that choice on my own without a small minority trying to make a choice for me.

If you think I'm annoyed that they are taking advantage of the Booth Babe or Lengendary Wand Women there's just no point to this...

Also maybe you should take up golf... Why golfers get ahead - Golf and business

These are facts. Just thought I would introduce you to them.

The "Booth Babe" name is not the correct name. They are called Models.

How are they taking advantage of the "Booth Babe"?

• Are they paying them less than the average of what the industry booth model makes?
• Do men booth models make more money?
• Is the Manufacturer talking dirty to these models while they are working?

PS...Your golf article is a joke. Who says women can't golf? My wife is a better golfer than myself.

Jeremiah, I am curious to your thoughts on how this impacts / affects other woman at the show? That is, not the booth babes but the other female attendees. Whether or not being a DomeWizard 'Party Girl' is helpful / useful to the few women who are hired to do this, are these promotions helpful (or hurtful) to the position of the other women inside the show?

My wife stated that she has no problems with Booth Models at the show. Like me, it is more of roll your eyes and move on type of thing. When we roll our eyes, it is not at the women. It is at the Manufacture that needed this marketing ploy to get people to their booth.

My wife also states that woman have a choice of their careers. She choose a professional white collar job while a booth model chose her profession. Booth models do not help or hurt women.

To compare a woman with another woman is like apples to oranges. Does Tyrese Gibson (Male Model) posing, without a shirt, help or hurt us men professionally? Or does it only matter if women are involved in modeling?

In our industry, the reality is 90% of people are men and the ratio of female to male models is ~ 100 to 1. That makes it a lot easier to dismiss the impact of female models by raising unrealistic scenarios like 'do male models help or hurt us men professionally?'

Let's flip the scenario. Let's say we were in an industry that is 90%+ female, where historically women judged men based on their youth and attractiveness. In such a scenario, what is the impact of bringing in male models and having them clean domes and smile while the female executives talk business with each other?

Well I'm happy to give an answer to this : yes it is. I would not say hurtfull, rather uncomfortable.

If you are on a booth like that, your (dominantly male) colleagues are continuously commenting the booth babes tits and asses, and no sensible word is still coming out of their mouth. In the mean time I forgive them, since they can't help it, everyone has his or her limitations, my colleagues brains can't handle a broad spectrum of information, they tend to focus best on only one thing. So be it. And on normal day to day work, they are great colleagues to work with and I really can count on them.

What is a more indirect result of this innocent way of marketing, is that if you as a female colleague are at a booth, being it as visitor, either as a professional member of the technical staff, you either have to prove every minute again that you are not a booth babe, either they expect you to be one.

I once had the suggestions by one of our sales to wear high heels and short skirt, together with my marketing colleague. Have any of you guys already been to an exhibition wearing high heels ? It is really worth the try, it will give you a complete new experience in 7 ways to torture your feet in 1 day.

On the other hand, when I walk as a visitor together with my colleague, and I start asking questions on a product that interests me, the (usually male exhibitor) either ignores me, or answers my question to my colleague, avoiding eye-contact. Untill after half an hour, finally the idea rises that I might be the decision maker.

These attitiudes I consider more sexistic then having a few booth babes on a booth.

But the one influences the other. The booth babes make it harder for professional AND goodlooking women to do their job and feel respected. And the underrepresentation of women make it possible to still state us as a rarity that is only present on the exhibitions for entertainment.

And indeed, I fully agree with John, and can confirm this :

This whole sexistic atmosphere has already driven a lot of excellent female colleagues, either in marketing or in engineering away from the business, losing a lot of brains and innovative high-tec ideas.

But I don't think the sector is already mature to see this and adapt their mindset.

I usually sign my posts with my name, but since I had to struggle whole my carreer with these issues, I want to avoid comments and gossip by some less mature colleagues, who unfortunately are still in the majority.

John, I really thank you for takling this subject and the other contributors to join the discussion.

I really didn't know some men do also take offense to it.

I think this is humorous yet lame. It works, no doubt about it, but I couldnt bring myself to do it if I was an exhibitor. Definetely not disproving is effectiveness though.

John,

With all due respect, there is a lot of good and open discussion here..... however,

Discussions of this type of topic are always going to be hotly debated and polarizing when presented to an open forum such as this. However, is it really promoting the basic philosophy and original purpose of the IPVM vision?

This same discussion could be for ANY industry and its corresponding 'industry conference and expositions'. From COMDEX to Janitorial Services conferences you still see the same marketing ploys.

Let's not loose focus of why this IPVM site is useful to the 'grunt' end-user such as myself.

Whether it's a "booth babe" or "Party Girl/Boy" there are elements in any group this appeals to. If you want it out of the industry and not just driven into the background, ridicule it and marginalize it.

Just a few years ago one of the camera manufacturers had Playmates in their booth. One of the marketing team asked if I wanted my picture taken with them and I responded a little incredulously, "I'd be an idiot to have my picture taken with a playmate and maybe featured in your event marketing. Forget my wife or boss, what about a customer seeing that? She's pretty but that's just stupid."

That took all the bounce and pep out of that marketing staffer. Yes, if they are there some guys will still line up, but point out how silly that really is and the lines will get shorter and the marketing spend will go elsewhere.

It's not just on the show floor where this is going on, it's at many of the vendor parties. Parties that women like myself have to attend because we are often working at them as part of our day jobs, in professional corporate functions. If we complain that we are uncomfortable with women swinging on poles (and yes, I've seen this) or women dancing in lingerie as part of the "entertainment", we are told our opinions don't count, because we are not the target demographic.

Regarding the golf game comment, even if you have a good game, try getting that invite in the first place.

The ISC West show is tame compared to the annual Expo Seguridad in Mexico City.

Joel, thanks for asking about "the basic philosophy and original purpose of the IPVM vision" and how this fits in with that.

IPVM's goal is to push the industry to focus on facts, performance and quality instead of marketing myths and gimmicks. The use of booth babes is a gimmick that not only hurts women but hurts us all because it allows sellers to draw attention away from real issues and real value.

Ultimately, we will spend 90% of our resources on testing, research, training, etc. but we will still, from time to time, call out marketing practices that we believe undermine the greater goal of focusing on facts, performance and quality.

To the 2 undisclosed women who shared their experiences, thank you very much! It helps a lot to get that perspective.

@Joel- You may not find it important or relevant but for those of us who are impacted by this, it is an important issue. Sticking your head in the sand and/or, ignoring it thinking it will go away really just sends the message that you don't care either way. I for one, and apparently others that have been posting, do happen to care because of the affect it has on women. Not to mention the reinforced concept that women are just objects to be on display as "eye candy".

This discussion is important because it brings to light what women experience to a small degree. And, it opens the minds of those who may not have thought about the effect it has on their female co-workers/peers. By discussing this openly, maybe by some small chance it will have a positive change on how men see women as co-workers/peers.

So yeah, this is a very important discussion to be having in a security industry related forum.

@Jeremiah- keep rolling your eyes... the vendor will think you've accepted their marketing scheme and continue their practice. Yup, we should all resort to the old "rolling the eyes" trick to show our displeasure of their marketing plan.

I think you are off base on bringing this up for comment. What are you going to bring up for discussion next, gay marriage, ObamaCare, world peace?

I am not saying that this is or not Sexist, I just do not see what relevance it has in this forum.

Rick, we are bringing this up because it highlights an ongoing theme within industry trade shows, impacting how products are marketed and companies compete. That is it's relevance.

If gay marriage impacts surveillance buying decisions, we might comment on that as well. That said, I do not see how gay marriage compares to booth babes in terms of its industry impact.

Setting my moral and social objections aside, I would still avoid the exhibitor with the Booth Bable thing going on because it insults my intelligence that someone assumes I will make business decisions based on my impression of the offered up "eye candy" rather than on the merits of the product or service offered.

Hello, Rick:

Dotworkz brought this up, and made it a central element of how they are reaching security professionals at ISC.

Margarita,

Please excuse my engineer/scientist frame of mind or perspective. I never said nor implied that this discussion was not important. I appologize if it came across otherwise.

Joel

Margarita,

Yes... I do plan to keep rolling my eyes at the manufacturers that do this. Why...Do you plan on trying taking that choice away from me also?

Again...Margarita...show proof that these Booth Models are being objectified beyond their will, harassed, or not getting paid accordingly. Show proof that they are getting paid less the male booth models.

If you can come up with some damning evidence of the above, then I would have a problem. As of this point...I am educated myself to make decisions. Right now my Wife and I roll our eyes at the manufactures that do this marketing ploy to try to get foot traffic into their booth.

This discussion is about "Booth Babes" (Booth Models). It is not titled Women Going Out to a Bar with Male Coworkers and having to listen to guys talk about "tits and ass" after attending the ISC West event in Las Vegas where every casino has half naked women walking around working. As a woman, you need to let your male coworkers know they are offending you. If they ignore your opinion, then you need to take appropriate action within your company. This is a whole other topic than "Booth Babes" however.

I think people forget we are living in the United States of America. We, as individiuals, have choices. Small pockets of groups should not dictate others choices as long as though choices are legal.

As a man, it is easy for me to dismiss this gimmick as no big deal, reguardless of it's effectiveness. However, if it leads to women feeling uncormfortable performing their duties as a professional in the industry, then i can see where that would be wrong.

I can't imagine taking, or being taken, to a strip club for any business related outing. Heck, I have even turned down work at those types of places because I didn't feel comfortable working in that environment. But that is my personal choice and I made it without considering any one else.

If I were at a trade show and there were scantily clad women, there is little doubt that they would get my inner cave man's attention. Yet, I feel pretty secure saying that I am able to keep that part of myself at bay and keep it professional.

On the other hand, scantily clad men wouldn't bother me. I am secure enough about who I am that I could get past that. But, I am a man and not a minority in the industry, so I don't have the same perspective.

I don't know where the line is, but if it prevents women from doing their jobs, it may be time to make a change. The best way to make a change is through boycotting the companies who practice behavior that you object to. Sooner or later they will either change their ways or fold.

Personally, It does not have an effect on my decision to purchase a product. However, I know there are others that are drawn to this type of "marketing".

To be honets, I typically shy away from booths that use "booth babes".

I don't like to see my male coutnerparts drooling over these girls. It's pathetic how some guys respond. It gives the male species a bad reputation.

I use the presence of "booth babes" and other gimmicks (basketball hoops, roulette wheels, etc.) at trade shows as a pre-screening tool to help me decide which booths not to visit. I find that the manufacturers who resort to these types of tactics almost always do so because they have nothing to offer in terms of product.

Companies with innovative products and services let their wares do the talking. Those with tired, "also-ran" products seem to feel they need to do something else to get people into their booth.

How are they taking advantage of the "Booth Babe"?

• Are they paying them less than the average of what the industry booth model makes?
• Do men booth models make more money?
• Is the Manufacturer talking dirty to these models while they are working?

Stop thinking about the booth babes for a second and think about the impact on women who aren't. I'm pretty sure that most women don't want to have to flirt or dress "more sexy" to get someone's attention, however this kind of marketing says exactly that. It's a giant slap in the face to female colleagues.

Carlton,

Talking to my wife and some other women, that have attended ISC West, and they all laughed at your type of comment. The Booth Models are just models. It is not like the Booth Models are giving men lap dances in the booths.

WE HAVE A CHOICE!!! Ignore the booth like I do. Don't try to create your own laws to push on other people!!!

Jeremiah,

No one is talking about creating laws; ignoring the booth is one step, public pressure to change is another step. This is not something we're taking to Congress, it's the self policing of our industry in regards to the way in which the women working in our industry (not the Booth Babes - who aren't in our industry) are treated.

Jeremiah, like you, I do ignore those booths. Where we differ is that I don't use that as an excuse to ignore the impact it has on female collegaues.

Do the biggest players in the industry use marketing tools like this? Party Girls are for weaker competition that need to "do whatever it takes" to draw interest. Remember the Corby girl? The default kpad # was 362438. Marketing is a tough industry and profit is king. If you want to draw attention in this industry, it's a smart plan. Good luck fighting this cause. By the way John, what are you achieving by this? There's plenty of technical issues to discuss. I personally am a bit confused by this article on your site. Yahoo uses similar tactics to get me to click on their articles.

"Where we differ is that I don't use that as an excuse to ignore the impact it has on female collegaues."

Carlton, when you worked at Bones Magazine... Did you not condone objectifying women with no clothing or scantly clad clothing on. So why do you condone this but have a problem with Booth models at ISC West? Is it because you're a reporter at IPVM?

Carlton giving a Retweet to this Bones Magazine on Twitter. Magazine is full of scantly clad women or the so called "Creative Culture".

Bones Magazine on Twitter: "NEW ISSUE COMING SOON!! IF YOU HAVEN'T READ THE LAST ONE Bones Magazine Issue 4 - The Cold/First Issue by Bones Magazine - Issuu"Bones Magazine Issue 4 - The Cold/First Issue by Bones Magazine - Issuu" target="_blank">

You can see Bones Magaine objectifys women a lot

http://bonesmagazine.com/

It would be interesting if we go to... let´s say an AVON event... and they place a couple of good looking guys over there to promote some specific item or brand, obviously showing their muscles. If we ask does guys if they feel like a sex object, what would be their response?. Or ask the male persons that work for AVON if they find that offensive.

@Jeremiah- I think you missed the key point of this discussion. Too bad.

On a side note, I'd like to know who the women are that you spoke to... gauging from your stance or lack of, I doubt seriously that they were open and honest with you for fear of rejection or ridicule. Your posture is one of the typical reasons women hesitate to speak out/speak freelyl against issues like this.

Like I said, keep rolling your eyes if you think it will help.

Margarita...talking to you is like talking to a radical liberal. Always making things up to attack in an arguement.