Ligowave Wireless Profile - Ubiquiti Competitor

By Sean Patton, Published Aug 27, 2018, 09:57am EDT (Info+)

Ubiquiti has become the most common choice for wireless in video surveillance (see Favorite Wireless Manufacturers) but not without controversy and debate, as Ubiquiti's no sales reps, no phone support model contradicts industry norms.

[UPDATE December 2019: New reports show product availability and support problems]

In recent IPVM discussions (e.g., Anything Better Than Ubiquiti?), one name that has come up is LigoWave, historically a wireless carrier/service provider who is targeting the video surveillance industry.

In this report, based on discussions with the company, we examine LigoWave's offerings including:

  • Company Overview
  • Limited US Revenue
  • Compared to Ubiquiti
  • Surveillance Focused Products
  • Free Cloud Management
  • Phone Tech Support Available
  • Limited Channel Protection
  • Pricing
  • Looking to Raise Brand Awareness
  • Outlook

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Free ***** **********

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Phone **** ******* *********

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Available ******* ****** ****** / ************

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*******

******** ****** ********* **** **%-**% **** than * *********** ******** *******:

  • ******** *******-*-** ~$** ****** ******** ** Ubiquiti ******** **-** ~$** ******
  • ******** *********-*-**** ~$*** ****** ******** ** Ubiquiti ******** ** **-** ~$** ******
  • ******** **** ******** *-** ~$*,*** ****** with ********** ***** ~$*** ****** ******** to ******** ************* **** **** ******** antenna ~$*** ******

Looking ** ***** ***** ********* ** **

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Comments (22)

Robert Shih

Independent
08/27/18 02:38pm

No switches or gateways makes this kind of a bummer for me.

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Michael Miller

In reply to Robert Shih | 08/27/18 03:27pm

Have a look at Ignitenet

 

 

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Robert Shih

Independent
In reply to Michael Miller | 08/27/18 03:49pm

Heard about them. They're more expensive though, right?

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Michael Miller

In reply to Robert Shih | 08/27/18 04:11pm

There 10GB PTMP AP is $999 MSRP and stations are $599 so I don't see that being expensive for the speed your getting. 

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Jason Hintersteiner

In reply to Robert Shih | 08/27/18 06:17pm

Hi Robert,

LigoWave frequently partners with Syncom Technologies (http://www.syncomtechnologies.com) for switches and gateways on projects.  Our product lines are very complimentary to each other, and both LigoWave and Syncom use Security Network Advisors (http://securitynetworkadvisors.com/) as National Sales Representatives, allowing SNA to offer a complete solution on a project basis.

Our equipment meets all of the relevant IEEE standards, so we are actually vendor-agnostic when it comes to working with any vendor's infrastructure equipment, including network switches, routers, cameras, access controls, etc. 

 

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Tasneem AbuQutaish

Adler Elreha Security Systems
IPVMU Certified | 08/27/18 04:43pm

We actually work with Ligowave, i can tell you from my experience that their support is very good, yes it is on site support but they reply immediately in number of occasions,  and supported me within the time needed, not sure if its my luck or not :) ,
But could say i personally didn't suffer from their support.
However on real installation our clients did have trouble with PTMP connectivity using LigoDLB 5-20 and LigoBase which did not provide best stable connectivity for the cameras, so the client had to put the site all PTP connection, we tried with the but due to time we couldn't conclude the problem. 
Not sure if anyone has succeeded in the PTMP connectivity with LigpDLB products or
if IPVM will have any future testing on the would be great !

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Jason Hintersteiner

In reply to Tasneem AbuQutaish | 08/27/18 06:33pm

Hi Tasneem,

We do have our LigoPTMP RapidFire and LigoDLB/LigoDLBac series products working fine on numerous camera installations.  Based on your brief description as well as experience with other deployments, this instability issue you describe sounds like interference, either self-induced or from external sources. 

For simplicity and ease of installation, we usually advise customers to use the default settings that enable auto-channel and automatic transmit power control (ATPC).  These default settings usually prove adequate for simple deployments. However, in noisy RF environments or in environments with a lot cameras and thus a lot of parallel links, we usually recommend planning and locking down the channels and transmit power settings to static values for each PTP/PTMP link.  Planning out static channels is necessary to prevent self-interference (i.e. interference from your own APs).   For external interference (i.e. interference from third party neighbors), each LigoWave AP has the ability to do both wireless scanning (i.e. Wi-Fi beacon frames) as well as spectrum analysis, which will indicate channel utilization no matter what the source, to assist in finding and avoiding channels being used by other sources.

For any type of wireless link from any vendor, using static channel and transmit power settings generally improves link stability in more challenging RF environments.  LigoWave's phone and email support and pre-sales engineering teams can work with you and your customers to plan out appropriate channel and transmit power settings, based on the project specifics.

Please feel free to DM me if you are having issues with a specific project, or you can reach out to our support line and they can assist.

 

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Tasneem AbuQutaish

Adler Elreha Security Systems
IPVMU Certified | In reply to Jason Hintersteiner | 08/28/18 07:26am

Hello Jason, 

Many Thanks for your reply, unfortunately the client for now had to go with PTP, not sure if they will retry again the PTMP.
As for interference, the locations actually are in a desert and each station were located on a tower with camera, so if there will be any interference im guessing from the camera, but wouldn't it effect the PTP also ? not sure though...

Anyway we did actually kept the default settings, and each station were put to (WDS/ipoll2/ipoll3) , as for the AP they were tested in both ipoll3 & auto WDS, auto channel, but not sure of the ATPC - i think this should be checked next time !. But i do believe in your note of interference its the only explanation but the issue is how to detect from where, and how since the locations are in a middle of no where...

ill of course contact the support if any future issue rises & thank you for your response!!

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Jason Hintersteiner

In reply to Tasneem AbuQutaish | 08/28/18 06:36pm

If your towers and cameras were in isolated rural locations, chances are that the problem was some type of self-interference, though I cannot authoritatively say further without seeing actual details of the deployment.  If they have it working with PTP, that's all that matters for this project.  That said, it's good to understand the root causes of such issues when it comes time to deploy the next project.

LigoWave provides USA-based phone and email support, so if you need help on a future LigoWave project during the planning or deployment stages, please don't hesitate to reach out to us.  We pride ourselves on our support organization, and we understand the demand for such technical support in the security market.

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Tom Sharples

08/27/18 05:40pm

One of the things that drives me bonkers is that UBNT consistently ships products with flakey firmware for at least the first year of production, relying on hapless installers to debug their new products. Recent example is the aircube-isp's  I picked up for testing, which have an annoying tendency to intermittently lose their upstream WAN connection for several minutes at a time. If Ligowave has much less of this involuntary customer beta-test mentality, I'd be interested.

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Jason Hintersteiner

08/27/18 06:59pm

Hi Tom,

Though we would like it to be, firmware is never perfect; if it were, we'd never have to issue firmware updates for bug fixes, but only to add new features.   :)

LigoWave takes great pains to try and avoid the issue you describe, and we do see it as a competitive advantage.  LigoWave products are known for their extremely high quality and reliability, both in our hardware and our firmware.  Accordingly, as a company, we do not believe in using our customers as beta testers, and strive for every firmware release we issue to be both functional and stable.  Our software development team performs a whole series of regression tests and QA validation on new features and bug fixes before any new firmware version is released. 

Furthermore, when our warehouse in Canton, GA (outside Atlanta) receives a product shipment, we do 100% testing where we power on each unit and upgrade the firmware to the latest release version, so that every unit sold in the United States has the latest firmware loaded on it as of the time it ships from our USA warehouse to our network of distribution partners.  This is an extra step that most other vendors do not invest in, but we go through this process in order to sustain our reputation for quality, and we measure that with one of the lowest RMA rates in the industry (< 0.1% defect rate).   One of the many benefits of this process is to ensure that, in the rare event where code does get released and we receive feedback that something is broken, the code is fixed right away and the number of units running that faulty code release out of the box is minimized.

We know there is always a segment of the market that just wants the cheapest product they can find, and we are not pursuing that segment.  Instead, LigoWave is focusing our efforts on customers who want to "deploy and forget", meaning that they are willing to pay a reasonable cost premium up front for a product with high quality and high reliability, so as to avoid ongoing support and replacement costs later on.

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Luis Carmona

Geutebruck USA
IPVMU Certified | In reply to Jason Hintersteiner | 08/27/18 08:09pm

When are you guys releasing units for surveillance use that are 802.3af or at compatible?

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David Warren

Security Network Advisors LLC
In reply to Luis Carmona | 08/27/18 09:40pm

I asked him the same question at a training class last week. He admitted this is their biggest hole in their product line in regard to video security installs. He said late September several of the inexpensive 802.11ac units will have 48V 802.3at with pass-through.

So...Hopefully sometime by end of year. They do have some step up dc/dc converter 24V non-standard to 48-55V they also have the step down. Clunky, but gets the job done.

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Jason Hintersteiner

In reply to David Warren | 08/27/18 10:49pm

Hi Luis,

Excellent question. 

We use 24V in our outdoor point-to-multipoint products for the same reason that other vendors do as well; the components are significantly less expensive, and this cost-savings translates into a lower price for the customer.  That said, in my pre-LigoWave career I've deployed Wi-Fi and PTMP APs from multiple vendors, and I know firsthand how annoying 24V passive PoE actually is in practice from an integrator's perspective.  LigoWave is moving away from 24V passive PoE on some of our newer PTMP products.  All of our Wi-Fi products and our carrier-grade RapidFire PTP/PTMP gear all use IEEE 802.3af/at as as standard.   

To provide a preview of what is coming in the next few months:  We have a modified version of our LigoDLB 5-15ac coming out in early Q4-2018 that will have two gigabit Ethernet ports, use IEEE 802.3at as an input, and provide IEEE 802.3af as pass-through output.  It is intended specifically for surveillance applications with a single surveillance camera that does not exceed 15.4W.  Also in Q4-2018, we will be launching an unmanaged outdoor PoE switch which has a 60W Ultra PoE port (for those 40W PTZ dome cameras) and three 30W IEEE 802.3at ports, as well as two additional ports for fiber or Ethernet backhaul.   Both of these products are in beta testing at the moment.  While I am expecting both of these products to be available within the next couple of months, we generally hold off on launching a formal product announcement and marketing campaign until we have a release and availability date from our factory.  Watch this space!

As David mentioned, we do have a IEEE 802.3af to 24V gigabit Ethernet converter which takes standard IEEE 802.3af input from a switch and transforms it to 24V passive PoE to power our LigoDLB / LigoDLBac series of devices.  This allows the AP to be powered from an ordinary IEEE 802.3af/at switch, which is very convenient in surveillance applications since PoE switches are generally present anyway for the cameras.  Our competitors that also use 24V Passive PoE also offer similar accessories to provide this functionality.  

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Luis Carmona

Geutebruck USA
IPVMU Certified | In reply to Jason Hintersteiner | 08/28/18 12:50pm

Thanks for the information. We've been using 48V POE to passive converters for awhile so we can remotely reset bridges from the POE switch, but it is a pain and clunky, yes. I know trying to find the most cost effective way to fit the market is always a challenge for a manufacturer, and I know for the consumer market they are 95% cost driven. I just don't know why any integrator would choose not to spend a little extra for a model that had built in 802.3af POE support.

Ubiquiti has recently come out with their NS-5ACL unit which is 802.3af compliant without need of an adapter and we've gone back to trying them for that very reason.

When Ligowave comes out with a similar unit I will be more than willing to try it and I'd be willing to pay twice the cost of a comparable Ubiquiti unit to have the better support behind it.

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Jason Hintersteiner

In reply to Luis Carmona | 08/28/18 06:30pm

In terms of why many integrators won't spend a little extra money on the native IEEE 802.3af support, I've honestly been scratching my head over that conundrum for years, too.  I agree it seems like a no-brainer, but demand for product with a lower up-front cost, vs. product that is slightly more expensive but much easier (and therefore cheaper) to install and maintain, always seems to dominate large chunks of this market.   I personally would  mcuh rather spend a little more on CAPEX (up-front capital expenditure) and spend a lot less on OPEX (ongoing operational expenditure), though lots of people  don't seem to look at it that way.

We'll definitely be making a big splash when our dual-port version of the LigoDLB 5-15ac comes out this autumn.  That product will use standard 48V  PoE as an input.  You can use IEEE 802.3af if you are not using PoE passthrough, otherwise IEEE 802.3at if you do need the IEEE 802.3af passthrough for a camera.  It sounds like this model in particular will be well-suited to your particular applications.

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Undisclosed Distributor #1

08/28/18 07:34pm

We've been very happy with Ligowave! We've been selling it for two or three years now, our customers love it.

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Dawid Adamczyk

09/08/18 10:40pm

Today I tested 2 pcs. LigoDLB 5-20n based on Poland radio regulations to get PTP connection. In WDS & iPoll2 modes LigoWave radio do not support autochannel selection - no network is broadcasted form AP with such setting. It is serious bug - what if there is more such-level bugs?

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Jason Hintersteiner

In reply to Dawid Adamczyk | 09/09/18 04:57pm

Hi Dawid,

This appears to be a minor configuration problem.

LigoWave's link architecture follows a base / subscriber model, where the base is the master of the link and is responsible for broadcasting the SSID, doing auto-channel selection, as well as dictating which subscribers are allowed to communicate in which time slots.  This architecture is essential for our proprietary protocol, iPoll, to operate. 

Accordingly, for point-to-multipoint links, the base of the link must be configured in "Access Point (iPoll #)" mode, and the remaining endpoint subscribers must be configured as "Station (WDS / iPoll #)" mode.   

For point-to-point, this configuration requirement is the same, though it  doesn't matter which side of the link is the Access Point and which side is the Station. By convention, LigoWave usually recommends that the upstream link (closer to the MDF / demarc / NVR) be configured as the Access Point and the downstream link (closer to the endpoint) be configured as the Station.  This convention is to maintain consistency in the configuration, so as to ease any future troubleshooting efforts.

I know that some of our competitors utilize a "WDS Bridge" mode where the links are configured identically, except that the MAC address(es) of the other side of the link need to be specified.  That architecture doesn't scale easily to larger number of subscriber links, and also only works for standard WDS bridging. When using proprietary protocols like iPoll, there generally has to be one and only one master of the link.

If you continue to have further issues setting up the link, please reach out to our support line by phone or email, and our technicians will be happy to assist you.

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Dawid Adamczyk

09/09/18 09:11pm

OK - I read about your token-based system.

But it is not the answer why AP do not broadcast the network. I check with mobile phone with 5GHz WiFi interface that as long as auto channel in AP is on no network signal is transmitted from AP. Once select specific frequency (channel) PTP link starts working without a problem.

Suprisingly that AP with iPoll3 there is no matter whether autochannel is on or not.

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Jason Hintersteiner

09/11/18 03:51pm

For auto-channel to work, multiple channels need to be selected, as you are telling the AP which channels it is allowed to use for auto-channel.  If auto-channel is enabled but no channels are selected, then the radio is effectively turned off.

This does not appear to be your issue, however.  From what you are describing, it sounds like the AP is only broadcasting when one channel is selected (i.e. static channel), not when multiple channels are selected (i.e. autochannel).  If this is the case, then I will have to refer you to work directly with our customer support team.  I've not personally encountered this apparent issue with the LigoDLB 5-20n series, but our support people have more day-to-day exposure with these types of things and are better equipped to assist you.  If it does turn out to be a "bug", then our customer support team can verify that and pass the information to our software engineers to create a firmware fix for it. 

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Sean Patton

IPVM | 12/09/19 03:27pm

The report has been updated to reflect concerns regarding Ligowave's significant product shipping delays and no communications (including their out-of-service US support phone number)

Product Availability Concerns

Based on member feedback regarding issues getting products from Ligowave, we attempted to contact Ligowave multiple times with no response, additionally, their US Support phone number is out-of-service:

This is very concerning, especially because Ligowave's differentiation from Ubiquiti was human-based phone support. If we get any communications from Ligowave, we will update.

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