Hikvision VP On Muslim Oppression

After watching the video of the uygur woman I genuinely feel disgusted.

During my time in China and seeing these uygur people I have said many times that they are not Chinese. The first time I did see one, he was cooking some street food and I said to my Chinese friend “look over there , a westerner is cooking street food” the answer I got back was ,” No, he is Chinese” He had blue eyes, looked European and was very far from looking like a regular Chinese person.

I have seen and spoken to many more of these people since that day and genuinely believe these people should not be considered to be Chinese. They Have completely different cultural norms and customs. They also have a obviously different gene pool and have potentially lived in that area for up to 4,000 years. China should simply let them break away from and form their own nation.

Watching the video of the uygur woman’s testimony also made me realise a very scary thing. It seems the actions of the Chinese Goverment could be a slow ethnic cleansing or another holocost

Re-education camps, detentions, people left to die when they get sick and executions all seem like something that would have been happening before the gas chambers were introduced by Hitler.

This is something much bigger than just some bans on some CCTV manufacturers. I don’t think Hitler would have stopped his persecution of Jews if people in the USA stopped buying some German made products in 1935!!

It seems obvious that some sanctions are not going to stop China from doing what they are doing.

Whats next?

@john. It would be interesting to see a poll of what action people think the world should take against China?

Actively stop buying china made?

War?

severe sanctions like with North Korea?

let them keep doing what they are doing?

support other low labour countries to open factories and compete with China? (México seems like a easy choice)

any others

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John Honovich

IPVM

More: AP - China's Uighurs told to share beds, meals with party members and Al Jazeera: China is trying to erase the Uighurs and their culture

Watching the video of the uygur woman’s testimony also made me realise a very scary thing. It seems the actions of the Chinese Goverment could be a slow ethnic cleansing or another holocost

The China Communist Party will either 'convert' or kill them.

It would be interesting to see a poll of what action people think the world should take against China?

I am not sure what a useful poll would be here (i.e., making a few specific options) but if people have ideas to share about what to do, please do so.

Also, one prominent Hikvision dealer recently spoke out about these issues here.

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Undisclosed #3

There is no action, sanction you can take against the Han Chinese to change their course. If you think War solves the problem you better be ready to sacrifice everything. May the best country, ally, group win.

If nothing is done, it is inevitable the Han Chinese will eventually rule the world and if you cannot see their progression you are blind. Westerner are full of ideas, opinions and logical constructs, but considering the past history of the Han Chinese, they are not going to listen to anyone.

I don't support either side, to me you both look like medieval knights on horses ready to pull some Braveheart II war hero BS. Time will tell, and as it does you can take these stories, polls, fantasies, what ifs, threats of this or that, politics, culture and what type of AI is used to suppress and archive them for future analysists to sort out the aftermath.

Coexist, War, Death, Annihilation, roll the dice sweet internet.

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John Honovich

IPVM

If nothing is done, it is inevitable the Han Chinese will eventually rule the world

In fairness to the PRC, one thing they do regularly point out is that 'China' (through its various dynasties) has never sought to 'rule the world'.

I am not discounting, at all, the negative impact of a powerful authoritarian government on the world, even if they did not 'rule' the West, their actions could seriously harm freedom and human rights broadly.

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Anton Miller

Shaked Projects

'China' might've never sought to 'rule the world', but 21st century PRC isn't quite the same country.

Now they have not only the means (should I go into the details?) but also the ends - the world is being globalized and PRC is about to become a globalizer, not globalized, if you catch my drift.

They quite literally bought quite a few African countries (don't remember which, can't be bothered to look up now) and are mercilessly exploiting them. Nothing even remotely similar to what European colonizers would've even though of doing. You see, the Chinese are not even aware that humans have 'rights'.

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Undisclosed #11

In reply to Anton Miller

Today to win a war you do not have to fight

all u need to do is lend money:)

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Anton Miller

Shaked Projects

Oh, they will. And once they occupy Russia they will become absolutely unstoppable.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

African American also look differently from European whites. you seem to be a racist. China is like US, both are multi-race nation. In China, there are 56 different races and most are minority.

You can also find other China minority races with different colors of eyes and hair. it's just same as US.

However , you are racist and stupid enough to judge just from eye color and looking to say whether they are Chinese or not. If you do the same in US, you will be sued and fined because what you are saying and trying to discriminate and isolate people are dangerous and very much like Adolf Hitler and seriously violates US constitution with amendments.

And your stupid and silly talks showed how ignorant you are. We know much more about US than you know about China. and even in US, you are the special ones that disagreed by most.

The success of China in 5000 years history is to combine different races including Tibetians, Mongolians, Islamic people, and Manchu people into the whole common race which is called Chinese. so it's very natural that Chinese people can have different colors of eyes and hairs, and also talk in dialects but not Mandarin.

Go back to school and study more culture and history!

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

Maybe you could re-educate us?

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Andy Cho

You are smart. Please provide us intellectual reasoning behind AI-enabled cameras in mosques in China. If there is no explanation, and I claim right to call you a stupid, selfish, and money-hungry moron. Please teach us. (By the way, the fact you start analysis with African-American shows that you are a racist who seems to indicate dark skinned people are the lowest rank to be up-lifted)

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John Honovich

IPVM

In reply to Andy Cho

I want people to discuss and debate things but it's more productive to omit accusations of racism and stupidity, etc. Explain to people why they are wrong and focus on that.

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Andy Cho

oh, shoot. I meant to reply to the original message by mfr#6, not to you, John and undisclosed distributor 7! My mistake!

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

In reply to Andy Cho

These are installed to find some terrorists. If you make a trip to XinJiang, China, you can find most places are safer, and both the local Uygurs and the local Hans are having a good life, but unfortunately, being monitored.

Nobody likes being monitored, however, if you check the past several year's history, there are many attacks/raids that limited terrorists bombed and set fires to Hans and to police, they think Hans took their wealth. Terrorists used the excuse and killed many innocent people and even tourists.

You may know like many countries, China is also against Bin Laden and the extreme terrorists like ISIS. all of the people want to live a peace life. I am living in Shanghai and I visited Uygurs restaurants often because I like their food, and they enjoy the life in Shanghai and are making money. both the bosses and waiters are Uygur.

Terrorists are very few, and not all of them are Uygur, so the action is against Terrorism and try to find the bad guys from mosque.

Tragedy continues, in March, 2019, New Zealand, mosques in ChristChurch were attacked. many people lost their lives and the unbelievable scenes were broadcasted to people on Internet. New Zealand is a peaceful place and part of western world. but such tragedy never happened in China.

China took some actions in Xinjiang, if you want to see details by yourself, then try to visit Xinjiang and you can see. that action to monitor all people are for the few criminals, and protect all other people. So Actually now Xinjiang is safest place in China, although we know it's a big trade off against freedom.

If we check history, then British and American both had very bad history of slavery, the victims are mostly African people. I watched US movies and US novels, there are so many hollywood movies about slavery liberation, and it can be generalized into the idea, that all races are equal.

Chinese people know this much better than western. because British and American stopped slavery about 150 years ago, by Abraham Lincoln. But China stopped slavery about 2000 years ago. I read biography of Lincoln and liked him a lot. Chinese people also love freedom no less than American people. so none of the minority races in China are being discriminated or like the Germans and Japanese army did in Second world war, slaughtered by plan. Chinese people love peace more than you know.

I used the African people for example, because they got the rights to be elected , until 1964. I have African American friend, and he is a writer. I just could not understand why American people don't understand the rest of the world, and often think others are idiots.

There are so many lies on Internet, so if you check Internet news only but don't visit the places to see my yourself, you could be fooled by US government media.

I watched Youtube, VOA, BBC, and I visited US, and Europe, and I travelled all around China, I have friends from Xinjiang, and also from African American, visited Uygur restaurants, we have many things you don't know, if you only read internet media and type keyboard.

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John Honovich

IPVM

both the local Uygurs and the local Hans are having a good life, but unfortunately, being monitored

How are the million in concentration camps having a good life?

China took some actions in Xinjiang, if you want to see details by yourself, then try to visit Xinjiang and you can see.

The NYTimes did, explaining how horrific it is:

waiting in line at a checkpoint, not knowing if an alarm is going to go off, watching a policeman kind of eyeing him not sure if he’s going to come and stop you, going under a camera, talking to a neighbor who could be an informant — all of these things become fraught and things that are sort of stressful. I mean, it’s an exertion of control at just such a fundamental level I think it’s hard to comprehend until you really think through the consequences of, if I tell my kid something and they repeat it in class, it’s possible I will disappear and they will go to an orphanage. And we have examples of that happening where a parent talks about the Quran to their kid and then the kid brings it up in school and then the family disappears. These are the kinds of things that have been just fundamentally altered by these tactics. And it’s just kind of mind boggling.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=THyG_IL69wY

Reported from VOA.

If you know Chinese, you may know more.

VOA tried to report this video clip at a neutral position, so you may judge by yourselves.

The so called "concentration camp" is a "remove extremity & profession training school".

and such schools are not everywhere, but only in a few big cities. And after this retain period, the people can go home, it's not like prison that you cannot leave.

Real advocators for violence and terrorists are exception, they are dangerous for any one.

We may argue people lose freedom, it's true, and they are forced to learn Chinese and join normal people's lives. but in any means, they are not in "concentration camps. "

There is a Chinese guy speaking English in the video, saying all of the above are disguised. That guy is notorious in China in fact, even for students who believe in western world's values. Such pathetic guy tells lies to make a living.

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John Honovich

IPVM

And after this retain period, the people can go home, it's not like prison that you cannot leave.

What you are describing, in Western terms, is prison. In the US, you cannot force adults to go, as you describe it, 'school'.

they are forced to learn Chinese

This is your defense? Think if the US forced people to learn English or if France forced people to learn French? Even your defense violates human rights.

And as you 'join normal people's lives' remark implies, we both know it's even worse than what you admit here.

I do seriously thank you. You have given me more insight into a PRC warped mentality around these things. I am confident that the West and the US will not back down about these human rights abuses.

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Undisclosed #1

This is all starting to make sense to me now. Again i have to agree the chinese way is the right way. Everything you have said has given me a great idea.

Lets take chinese people who have immigrated to western countries, put them into "Schools" to teach them the local language and customs. While in the "Schools" if they or their children get sick they will not receive any medical attention.

We will monitor them everywhere they go using facial recognition technology and we can install surveillance inside any place where Chinese people meet or socialise.

They will be required to follow the customs of the country they have immigrated to and only speak the official national language.

Manufacturer #6 what do you think of this? Would you be happy to be treated the same way as what you are defending?

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

Seen something similar many years ago in a country that is not existing any longer...

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Undisclosed #3

One oppressive comparative you might want to look into: America's culture extermination of the Indigenous people in North America, currently cataloged as Native Americans. Millions slaughtered, culture wiped and shamed. Christianity forced in their schools. The list is too embarrassingly ugly to even go on. I would not be surprised if this comment is deleted. The facial recognition used back then was two eyes, a small brain and very ignorant, greedy philosophy.

If China is using technology on their own indigenous people, just hope they don't turn full annihilation like the early westerners did.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

Thanks for the comments. There were Chinese workers in East China kidnapped in about 150 years ago, and were taken to San Francisco to work in gold mines too. Ironically, the word "shanghai" originally means "being kidnapped and taken to the sea" , if you look at American English dictionary.

We cannot repeat history. And Xinjiang is a part of China since at least 1000 years ago. there were officials sent to work on this land, and a lot of farmers working together to explore the vast land . A lot of fruits, cotton are grown there. Actually, there are more Hans than minority races in Xinjiang since long time ago. In Mao's times, about 50 years ago, many young students went from all across China , including big cities to Xinjiang to work in the big farms. so many of the local minority races there are familiar with Hans and for most of the times, it's in peace. Many folk songs became popular all across China.

Until today, local minority races in China do not pay income taxes, (which costs me about 30~40% of my total annual income). minority races in Xinjiang and other regions can get extra bonus scores when they go to University when they attend the "national exam" for university entrance. there has never been "family planning" there, so they can have 3 or more children at any time. no control on immigration at any time, so they can go to Beijing or Shanghai to open restaurant or become actor/actress, join sports team and etc.

This is 21 century, not 19 century. Please don't simply draw a conclusion that the people life is so miserable. their family wealth is often higher than Hans that living in mid China.

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Undisclosed #4

IPVMU Certified

If China is using technology on their own indigenous people, just hope they don't turn full annihilation like the early westerners did.

agree. the colonial barbarism of yesteryear enabled by the futuristic technology of today is a scary proposition indeed...

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

Have you already forgotten about Tibet? China called them "terrorists" too... So many civilizations have already committed the same atrocities that other cultures have and will continue to commit.

One nation's past does not excuse another nation's future. These things are off-topic and irrelevant. Nothing lowers the value of a debate quicker than "Well... THEY were worse!"

The idea is to learn from these hideous mistakes and make a better future for EVERY human, and not to repeat them ever again. I didn't think we'd ever see concentration camps again after WW2 but here we are... not learning, not remembering, not growing as a species.

If we're responsible for our pasts then going back far enough we're all complicit in each other's demise. Looking to and learning from the past is, of course, beneficial- however it is more prudent to move forward with compassion.

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Undisclosed #4

IPVMU Certified

But China stopped slavery about 2000 years ago.

Please feel free to correct the Wikipedia article, Slavery in China, with your research.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed #4

IPVM

feel free to correct the Wikipedia article

Ironically, Wikipedia is banned in China, as are 10,000+ other domains, including IPVM.

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to Undisclosed #4

Very informative #4, I also found this article, Treatment of Slaves in the United States. I am glad this is behavior is mostly non-existent.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

Very informative #4, I also found this article, Treatment of Slaves in the United States. I am glad this is behavior is mostly non-existent.

Yes, hopefully the modern concepts of civil and human rights pioneered by western culture will continue propagating around the world. The most significant road block to those human and civil rights left today are prohibitions on freedom of speech and press. That is one of the main litmus tests of an oppressive group or society.

It's a fine balancing act though and we've learned some hard lessons this and last century; that these changes can't always be forced too quickly. As the middle east has shown, just because a totalitarian regime gets toppled does not mean the country immediately embraces modern concepts of freedom, equality and democracy. That's where the Internet and free exchange of ideas can come in handy, to give that society a slow taste of what is possible and time to adjust to new ideas. But as I've grown older I've come to the conclusion it takes just that, time.

It's kind of like an obese person losing weight. You didn't get obese overnight and crash dieting can be very harmful. You can loose weight, but it should be done carefully and slowly. The West did not develop overnight with modern civil rights and freedoms- it took centuries of fleshing out new (and sometimes old) philosophies.

The danger though that is different today than of oppressive regimes of the past is today a lot of those regimes now have nukes. A fine balancing act indeed, changing fast enough so less people can be unjustly subjugated but no so quickly as to risk chaos.

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Undisclosed #1

Yes, I forgot China is so awesome.

It’s why no chinese want to move to western countries https://www.cnbc.com/2018/07/05/more-than-a-third-of-chinese-millionaires-want-to-leave-china.html

It’s why all Chinese parents prefer to send their children to Chinese universities instead of western universities

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/student/advice/nine-reasons-why-chinese-students-choose-study-abroad

its why Chinese people will only feed their children Milk powder made in china

https://qz.com/1323471/ten-years-after-chinas-melamine-laced-infant-milk-tragedy-deep-distrust-remains/

its why Chinese people would never walk past a child dying in the street.

https://edition.cnn.com/2011/10/17/world/asia/china-toddler-hit-and-run/index.html?no-st=9999999999

This list of why China is soo awesome could go on and on.

Finally I agree with you that China is soo awesome. Thanks for changing my mind. I might just take my new born baby there, feed her chinese milk powder, get her educated in Chinese schools and universities. If she does not die from drinking contaminated milk and does not get run over and left to die on the side of the road then she can look forward to not being able to get a good job and being stuck in one of the heaviest polluted countries in the world.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #6

You are so pathetic, I could not help laughing at you. and I don't want to waste time for other readers on IPVM. I like most articles here.

BTW, US company Cisco has been helping China government to do a lot of Internet packet filtering & IP blocking in Great Firewall Project to disallow Google/Youtube be accessed by regular Chinese citizen, but I see no American people criticizing on them, nor taking any sanctions on Cisco. Has Cisco not harmed human rights?

I also enjoy Google, Youtube and IPVM, so I don't like Cisco. Hikvision is just very similar to Cisco's role. Do you always have double standards or pride & prejudice?

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Undisclosed #1

It is a common tactic used by Chinese people to divert attention away from them selves like you are doing now.

I think you know the truth about china but just can not admit it.

There is soo much proof about what China does that can not be denied.

Good luck with your insults. You obviously are unable to support what you are saying with any proof and the only thing you can do is resort to insults. I guess that might be what you were taught at school in china. Maybe you should consider learning how to debate in a good quality American University.

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Undisclosed #3

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mao_Zedong

None of this is new. The cancer was formed at birth:

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Undisclosed #4

IPVMU Certified

he forgot to deny the “allegations”

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Undisclosed Integrator #5

IPVM / TMZ : #hikvision jumping into the #me2-fromthestart-cannot-trust-a-communist-state into the news.

You cannot trust “them” for anything security or surveillance, who are we kidding?

From an Air gapped true CCTV system, to a run of the mill default password system run by 90 % of the integrators. “Yes, everyone raises hands.”

I’m leaning toward 90% of the integrators don’t reiterate to the customer the importance of simple security measures?

Do we pump and dump these systems with default everything or do we create a IQ standard of 80 to protect the customer systems that pay us?

If you as an integrator that leaves everything default and the customer signs off, are you both really to fault? RTFM as to CTFP (change the Fing password)? Ouch, you that disagree.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #5

IPVM

What does cybersecurity have to do with human rights abuses? There are certainly issues with both, but this topic has nothing to do with cybersecurity.

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John Honovich

IPVM

Someone offline asked for clarification about Hikvision's forced facial recognition projects in the 900+ mosques. The reason this is being done is that the PRC government wants to track who is actively religious, so knowing who goes into a Mosque regularly is important (facial recognition automates that). Once they know, they can put them in concentration camps, or as they say 're-education' to torture educate religion out of them.

This was also discussed recently in the NY Times China surveillance state podcast, embedded below:

Also, Chinese Government Spies on Churches With Video Surveillance. The China Communist Party is atheistic and sees religions as threats to their power.

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Tim Coon

I personally think that facial recognition at Mosque's is appropriate since this ideology is responsible for much of the terrorism in the world. I would prefer that this ideology is banned from America.

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Luis Carmona

Geutebruck USA • IPVMU Certified

In reply to Tim Coon

And that is where fascism leads to. When you vilify an entire demographic instead of judging a person on their own merits. Where does it end? After Muslims, what is next? Pro-lifers because they have bombed clinics...? Then Democrats because they support the right to burn a flag? Then Libertarians because they're just anarchists underneath? Then people who speed? Who don't pay parking tickets? Who cough in a movie theater? Who spit on a sidewalk?

Where does the line get drawn, and who draws it?

Is it security being looked for here, or conformity? Is it safety, or control? And at what cost?

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

In reply to Luis Carmona

Where does the line get drawn, and who draws it?

Simple, really.

The line is the belief that treacherous mass-murderer paedophile rapist is the "best of all men"

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

In reply to Tim Coon

Hey Timothy,
This ideology is not necessarily responsible for much of the terrorism in the world. You can view this multi-faceted object from one very narrow perspective if you'd like, but the object is more than you can see of it.

For the record; nearly every single major religion, except maybe Buddhism (but not excluding Hinduism) is responsible for atrocities, violence, war. The Christian record is not any better than the Muslim record... Inquisitions, Crusades, Molestation of THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, based in/on Judeo-Christian ideologies...

They're all just humans misinterpreting a text that is meant to roughly convey an idea, like an analogy or metaphor. The words themselves are inferior to the experience they're trying to convey. Many have lost sight of this, and are now hung up on specific words.

These people are human Timothy, and they've done nothing to you. They have an organic logic circuit (Brain) in their skulls, just like you. This brain processes feelings and emotions and fear and happiness, just like yours. These people have families and mothers, just like you.

It is oppression that is responsible for terrorism. It is ignorance that is responsible for terrorism. It is stubborn stupidity that is responsible for terrorism, and hate, and evil.

I personally think that you should re-evaluate your stance. Listen to that woman's account of what happened to her. Picture that woman is your mother. She is your mother, she is your sister... We are all on this planet together.

For as long as we promote and stoke and breed the idea of "Us and Them" WE will never thrive. If WE as a species can help each other, we will all benefit. A rising tide lifts all ships.

Don't let your knee jerk... don't react right away. Dwell on these thoughts, truly try to empathize with a human being on the other side of the planet. If you are successful then you can never feel such hate again. You realize you're only hating yourself.

One more disclaimer about "Us and Them" - WE are NOT our Governments!

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Rich Moore

Buddhism did have a dark part in history especially in Southeast Asia, but that was a long time ago. If any religion has had little to no history of violence, it would most likely be Daoism (Taoism). I agree with your statement.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

Of all the moral precepts instilled in Buddhist monks the promise not to kill comes first, and the principle of non-violence is arguably more central to Buddhism than any other major religion. So why have monks been using hate speech against Muslims and joining mobs that have left dozens dead?

In reply to Rich Moore

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

https://www.google.com/search?q=molestation+of+children+is+muslim+schools

This ideology is not necessarily responsible for much of the terrorism in the world.

It is, as a matter of fact. You see, "the world" is not limited by Europe, Americas and Australia.

For the record; nearly every single major religion, except maybe Buddhism (but not excluding Hinduism) is responsible for atrocities, violence, war.

But no other major religion is actively calling for conversion of all-non believers and extermination of those who refuse to convert. I don't really care that Christians did the same 1800 years ago. We aren't 1800 or 1400 years ago or even 100 years ago. We are now.

The Christian record is not any better than the Muslim record...

Well, at the very least, Christians did not had a specialized assassins order...

Inquisitions

I wonder, do you know how many people were executed by the Inquisition over the course of 700 years?

Or what were the goals of the Holy Inquisition?

Crusades

Counteroffensive operations to retake their ancestral lands (by 634 A.D. Christians were living in Palestine for, well, 634 years) and deal with piracy in the Mediterranean sea, which crippled the trade in Europe (have you ever tried to walk from Florence to Paris?)

Molestation of THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, based in/on Judeo-Christian ideologies...

Funny how you are looking for ideological foundation of simple pedophilia.

They're all just humans misinterpreting a text

And what exactly makes you think that you are not misinterpreting these texts? Speaking of which texts, have you ever actually read any?

that is meant to roughly convey an idea, like an analogy or metaphor.

There are many verses, some of them are metaphoric, some are not.

The words themselves are inferior to the experience they're trying to convey. Many have lost sight of this, and are now hung up on specific words.

Riiight...

And when the forbidden months have passed, kill the idolaters wherever you find them and take them prisoners, and beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them at every place of ambush. But if they repent and observe Prayer and pay the Zakat, then leave their way free. Surely, Allah is Most Forgiving, Merciful.

These people are human Timothy, and they've done nothing to you. They have an organic logic circuit (Brain) in their skulls, just like you. This brain processes feelings and emotions and fear and happiness, just like yours. These people have families and mothers, just like you.

Well, Nazis all had brains, emotions and families. Apparently, being a biological human doesn't really mean much these days.

It is oppression that is responsible for terrorism.

Well, by this logic oppression of the white people is responsible for white terrorism.

However, the situation is quite a bit more complicated than that. Sporadic acts of terror by unhappy or mentally derange individuals isn't quite the same as a terrorist campaign. While the former can be mostly characterized as acts of protest that are supposed to draw attention but have no stated goal, terrorist campaigns, that are often disguised as a "grassroot protest" are in fact a form of asymmetrical warfare.

A terror campaign would always have a clearly stated goal, something along the lines of "do X or we will keep killing your people", are be controlled by a third party (because once the true leaders of the movement that is behind the terror campaign are known they will be liquidated), and are well financed.

It is ignorance that is responsible for terrorism.

Not really. Organizing a terrorist attack is not an easy task. Living to organize another one is much harder than you can imagine. Training a suicide bomber is really very complicated process. Even in severely oppressed populations only so many individuals are willing to just die like that. The instinct of self preservation is very strong, much stronger than hatred, hence so little viable suicide bombers and so many failed suicide attacks - and a way to identify a ticking human bomb: they tend to be nervous.

For as long as we promote and stoke and breed the idea of "Us and Them" WE will never thrive. If WE as a species can help each other, we will all benefit. A rising tide lifts all ships.

You think we could thrive under Islamic rule, with fully established Sharia law? You know, with throwing homosexuals off roof tops and stoning of infidel wives?

truly try to empathize...

I find it extremely hard to empathize with people who believe that throwing gays off roof tops is appropriate and that I should die if I refuse to adopt their backward ways.

I have to clarify that I'm not gay and I don't have much sympathy towards gays (or any other racial or religious group for that matter) yet I still believe that throwing people off roof tops for doing something that I personally disapprove of is not appropriate.

You realize you're only hating yourself.

Sancta Simplicitas...

One more disclaimer about "Us and Them" - WE are NOT our Governments!

Oh, yeah. Our governments are better informed. If you knew even like 1% of what I know (and I know very very very little) you'd probably be suffering from a very severe form of PTSD.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

Wow.... wowowowowow!

You've missed nearly every point almost entirely. I'll address a few, but most will be ignored as they're loaded hyperbole that I find entirely unhelpful or productive.

And what exactly makes you think that you are not misinterpreting these texts? Speaking of which texts, have you ever actually read any?

I've read many religious texts from Judeo-Christian texts to ancient vedic texts like the Bhagavad Gita and other Hindu works. I grew up with Christianity shoved down my throat. I took a college class on religion, where we covered Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Hinduism. I'm no expert, but I value the exchange and sharing of knowledge. I don't think we need to be qualified "experts in our fields" to have a meaningful, preferably civil, discussion.

Well, Nazis all had brains, emotions and families. Apparently, being a biological human doesn't really mean much these days.

Doing unto others as they've done unto you is not the correct answer. You want to fight hate with hate? Good luck, it only begets more hate. Try to remember you're not the righter of wrongs, you are not the executor of Karma, you are not the judge, this task is not your job. Your authority is only over yourself.

You think we could thrive under Islamic rule, with fully established Sharia law? You know, with throwing homosexuals off roof tops and stoning of infidel wives?

No, I do not think that. I never said anything to that affect at all. You must let your assumptions fall away when dealing with me. Only knowledge will prevail, assumptions and insults are useless. I think all of the major organized religions are doing great harm to the progression of humanity and our quest for peace & happiness. They are oppressive tools of the past, and these days we need to let them fall away. This is what I think.

Through the acquisition of knowledge and world travel experience I've learned that we're not different from each other at all. Which is why, despite this ignorance on display, I still have compassion for you and wish you the best. Hopefully we all grow from this experience in a positive and productive way.

Sancta Simplicitas right back at you buddy. Good luck with your life.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

You've missed nearly every point almost entirely.

To be precise, I demonstrated how all your points are based on fallacious premises.

I'll address a few, but most will be ignored as they're loaded hyperbole that I find entirely unhelpful or productive.

As a matter of fact, all my statements are factual and I can back each and every one of them with irrefutable evidence.

I don't think we need to be qualified "experts in our fields" to have a meaningful, preferably civil, discussion.

Well, being unqualified means that we should presume that we can be in the wrong.

Doing unto others as they've done unto you is not the correct answer.

In fact, it entirely depends on circumstances.

You want to fight hate with hate? Good luck, it only begets more hate.

Good luck fighting Nazis with rose petals.

Try to remember you're not the righter of wrongs, you are not the executor of Karma, you are not the judge, this task is not your job. Your authority is only over yourself.

Basically, what you are saying if that I see a pedophile raping a child I should simply continue with my day. Or if there's an enemy invading my country I should not actively prevent it by killing the invaders.

No, I do not think that. I never said anything to that affect at all.

You did have said something along that lines, specifically "The Christian record is not any better than the Muslim record... Inquisitions, Crusades, Molestation of THOUSANDS OF CHILDREN, based in/on Judeo-Christian ideologies..."

Funny how you don't even recognize it.

You must let your assumptions fall away when dealing with me. Only knowledge will prevail, assumptions and insults are useless.

I'm afraid that you are assuming too much to be in a position to make such statements.

I think all of the major organized religions are doing great harm to the progression of humanity and our quest for peace & happiness.

An example of an assumption based on fallacious premises. Clearly, you don't know shit about religious organizations. Do you even know where word "Hospital" comes from?

They are oppressive tools of the past, and these days we need to let them fall away. This is what I think.

Oh, yeah, than 'progressive' notion that people are now capable of self-organizing and being nice to each other without supervision. Sorry, ain't gonna work.

Through the acquisition of knowledge and world travel experience I've learned that we're not different from each other at all.

Oh, yeah, wolves, pugs and pitbulls are all not different from each other at all.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

•May 28, 2019

LOL

You win, I'm wrong! Now what?

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

•May 29, 2019

That's it.

Not that I care.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

•May 26, 2019

Islamist extremism caused 84,000 deaths worldwide in 2017, new report says

This ideology is not necessarily responsible for much of the terrorism in the world.

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John Honovich

•May 26, 2019

IPVM

Here is the original report where that 84,000 figure comes from: Global Extremist Monitor 2017, key quote:

Ten states together experienced 97 per cent of all fatalities globally: Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Nigeria, Yemen, Egypt, Pakistan, Libya and Mali.

There is no doubting that violence but as it relates to the PRC or the USA, it's not clear that those are substantial risks, certainly not to any level that justifies a million people in concentration camps, yes/no?

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

•May 26, 2019

Certainly?

O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and the Christians as allies. They are [in fact] allies of one another. And whoever is an ally to them among you - then indeed, he is [one] of them. Indeed, Allah guides not the wrongdoing people.
https://quran.com/5/50-60

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to Tim Coon

Are you looking for Racial Recognition AI or Facial Recognition AI?

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

•May 25, 2019

Actually, China has both.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

It's ridiculous how salty the Chinese get when you tell them that you don't believe their lies. STOP CHALLENGING THE LIE! Just roll over and accept, like the entire nation does. Good news for the rest of the world; the P.R.C. cannot oppress us unless we're on their land.

The P.R.C. cannot control information and truth outside of their borders. They cannot manipulate information to suit them.

Didn't we "liberate" the Iraqi people for a similar reason? ;)

Keep up the good work John!

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John Honovich

IPVM

The P.R.C. cannot control information and truth outside of their borders.

Unfortunately, they can. They systematically delete and censor negative information that proves what they do. This is a problem for all reporters and researchers covering the PRC. For example, the $53 million deal we found for Hikvision in Xinjiang was subsequently removed after we reported it. Fortunately, Charles saved a copy and Archive.org has it.

The PRC and its subsidiaries like Hikvision play this deceitful game well. They will delete things and then accuse reporters and researchers of making things up to sow doubt.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

You don't think that there are any non-MSS approved individuals from China on-line, do you?

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #8

John - please remove "Timothy Coon" comment - obviously a racist troll.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #8

IPVM

While I strongly disagree with Timothy, I am not going to delete it. I am busy today but I think we would be better off genuinely trying to convince him why we should not 'ban' 'this ideology' rather than banning his comment.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

You can try convincing me, but I'm afraid that you are likely to agree after I'm allowed to present all my points and back each and every single one of them with irrefutable evidence.

A bannable offence on Facebook, mind you.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

Ban-able or reprehensible, either way it's inaccurate and laughable. You truly make me sad, because I know so many other people are just like you. It can be unbearably depressing to think how many people suffer the same as you. We truly do have an education problem in America. You're proof.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

•May 25, 2019

Ban-able or reprehensible, either way it's inaccurate and laughable.

That's one mighty argument. I'm almost convinced that you are right. Try again.

You truly make me sad, because I know so many other people are just like you.

And your hubris won't let you assume even for a second that they might be right while you are mistaken.

It can be unbearably depressing to think how many people suffer the same as you.

Suffer? Me? Ummm... Yeah, right.

We truly do have an education problem in America. You're proof.

What makes you think that you could even imagine where I was educated, how many languages do I speak and what's my life experience?

Your hubris is truly laughable.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

•May 28, 2019

Wrong.

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Undisclosed Integrator #12

•May 29, 2019

Nice non-argument.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

Feels a little like FaceBook in here. I thought this was a site for determining the value and use of security industry products?

Clearly Hik has been banned due to an exposed flaw in their camera vulnerability and as such consumers and installers will make their choices according to their perceived value vs risk.

Focus on that has value on this site but all of the other is mere bully pulpit rhetoric that should be moved to another platform.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

IPVM

I thought this was a site for determining the value and use of security industry products?

Unfortunately, security industry product usage has now crossed into the political realm, e.g., take San Francisco Face Recognition Ban And Surveillance Regulation.

The more powerful the technology gets, the more it will raise ethical, political and human rights concerns.

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Anton Miller

Shaked Projects

The more powerful the technology gets, the more it will raise ethical, political and human rights concerns.

The perspectives are EXTREMELY scary, to tell the truth. Within probably 7-15 years there will be multiple cams on most lighting poles, police robots and cash-less economy where your ID can be denied for a wrong retweet.

Facial identification is really of no importance here - the state has enough ways to track all subjects without it. Besides, the only thing that stands between facial ID ban and facial ID approval is a successful terrorist attack that could've been thwarted if only they had facial ID. I would've not counted on ban lasting for too long.

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Undisclosed #3

In reply to Anton Miller

According to this website we should be a bit more fashionable.

https://cvdazzle.com/

EDIT: Ok, so which IPVM engineer is going to wear make-up for some cosmetic FR deception tests? hehe. Ari, Marty, Mr. Zwirn? Nelly?

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Anton Miller

Shaked Projects

Thinking of that, what's needed is a kind of makeup to distort facial features enough to trick the FR algorithm to think that this is someone else.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

In thoughtful, responsible, societies most people consider all angles of a thing. In some other places it may not matter, clearly in parts of China and even USA (Hikvision sellers) it doesn't matter, but a lot of us ACTUALLY do care about more than profit margin! Even if it comes with a hit to our revenue.

Pretend you're some entity that is and was against the Hitler ideology. Would you want to do business with Hitler?

This is also a site for determining who makes what products, who those people are, and where YOUR MONEY IS GOING.

I'm SO grateful for the knowledge and information that John & the team at IPVM is providing.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #9

I can well see your point M9, and can understand having limits to what kind of discussions one is willing or not willing to get into. But there are a lot of choices of articles on this service. Some are strictly technical, some get into the business aspects, and some get into the political aspects. There is no requirement for reading one kind of article if you want to get the other kind. You can always skip over those you do not want to read. That is the freedom of choices we have here. That speaks also to the diversity of choices we have.

I will agree that I wish there was a return of a clear delineation, a clear labeling, of what is intended as news content and what can possibly be deemed as "editorial" or "opinion piece" content. Maybe that is the rub, or maybe not. Unfortunately that line is pretty much gone in all news sources.

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

It is up to the consumer of the information to be intelligent and make these distinctions.

We're doomed.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

It is up to the consumer of the information to be intelligent and make these distinctions.

I only half agree with you there. There is a responsibility for a consumer to employ as objective intelligence and unbiased logic as possible when they consume news, with a health dose of skepticism. But there is also an encumbrance upon the news source to note when an article is probably an opinion rather than a supposedly objective and dispassionate presentation of facts as they are. Shoot, it's hard enough just getting facts stated as facts to actually be factual (not IPVM, but general news sources).

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

IPVM

a clear delineation, a clear labeling, of what is intended as news content and what can possibly be deemed as "editorial" or "opinion piece" content.

If there was a label, how would you act differently? I am not being flip, I am genuinely curious.

"Muslim Oppression" is a pretty clear indicator that this involves politics, it's not as if we are going to do a test on how to use video surveillance to best oppress >> insert group <<.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

John, I know you are not being flippant, and I appreciate the question.

Below is an example from NY Times website on how they label an article listing and individual article as "Opinion"

I think this would better calm people's feelings that opinions are not trying to be passed off as news, or that they should be told what to feel in think instead of being allowed to decide how they should think or feel about a subject- being expected to draw their own conclusion.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

IPVM

That's a good point. We can label things as such. We'll need to have a number of categories because it is not just news and editorial, some are tests, statistics, etc. but showing a category is useful. We'll need to add it in and I've put that in the dev queue.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #10

I think, I could be wrong, I just think that by itself anything that might be considered editorial content being labelled as such might make people happier. Having the other categories would be a nice touch, but you'd have to be careful not to go too far down the rabbit hole in labels.

Again, I could be wrong, but I never am. I thought I was wrong once, but I was mistaken. :)

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John Honovich

IPVM

Another Hikvision employee, this one a Director in Columbia, has responded:

Hikvision is incredible. Playing the victim. The Chinese government-controlled, 34,000 employee mega-organization is the real victim. The bad guys are IPVM and the Uyghurs...

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Undisclosed Distributor #7

•May 22, 2019

Wow... that's a very myopic and ignorant response from Hikvision. Way to dodge the subject and attempt name-calling/insults. I suppose HK makes money in a very cheap and rude way, so the reporting reflects that? XD

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Igor Keel