Hikvision Quits SIA, Blames IPVM "Bullies"

By John Honovich, Published Jul 22, 2021, 09:39am EDT

Hikvision called IPVM "bullies" decrying that IPVM had "harassed and maligned" Hikvision, in a letter, reported by SIW, justifying Hikvision's resignation from the Security Industry Association.

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SIW says Hikvision:

reached the point where it no longer wants to share membership in the organization alongside security industry publication IPVM

They hid from SIW that Hikvision was being investigated for violating SIA's ethics code and that Hikvision risked being expelled like Dahua was recently, making it the PRC government organization equivalent of "You can't fire me, I quit!"

Governments Condemning Hikvision

While Hikvision is upset with IPVM, the company's far larger problem is increasing government recognition of Hikvision's unethical behavior and human rights abuses, including:

"Bullies"

Hikvision criticized IPVM:

No doubt, these bullies have intimidated and silenced many in the industry

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Fever Screening Example

IPVM's so-called "intimidation" consists of us, e.g., investigating that 50 Hikvision fever tablets were installed in school buses, approved by Hikvision's sales manager, that wasted $100,000+ and put the children and their families at risk:

Hikvision refused to comment or do anything. By contrast, SIA asked for a crackdown on such marketing and use. Even Dahua has now admitted that bus fever screening is ineffective.

Competing Fairly

Especially outstanding was Hikvision's claim in the letter that they "try to compete fairly in the marketplace". This, a company created and controlled by the PRC government that uses its enormous size and protected home market to crush competitors.

Financial Motives

Hikvision criticized what they believe is IPVM's "opaque financial motives".

In fairness, Hikvision's financial motives are translucent - they will abuse human rights and put people's lives at risk for profit.

We are only "opaque" to Hikvision because they cannot understand putting ethics over profits. We would make far more money joining the Hikvision team, like the former Senator they hired, than selling low-cost memberships and online training courses that we do.

A few years ago, 3 senior Hikvision employees interrogated me with a long list of questions in a small hotel conference room. Then, as now, they simply could not fathom why we do what we do. They had easily bought advertising, sponsorships, and given free trips to China for the industry media. And yet IPVM refused.

A PRC government organization with 40,000+ employees, Hikvision cannot control IPVM, an American small business with just 25.

But that is the strength they still cannot grasp. A determination to do what is right at the expense of money. A commitment to free press, free speech, and a free world.

Comments (90)

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Note: I only covered a small number of the various issues involved and criticisms Hikvision made to keep the post tight. I am happy to address or debate other elements, just comment below.

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This has aged well, eh?

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For context, here is the original post: Blogger’s Cyberbullying Mission Tiresome, Destined to Fail | Hikvision US | The world’s largest video surveillance manufacturer

They also take aim at undisclosed commenters:

Who is Undisclosed? Only the blogger knows. Why does “Undisclosed” show up at just the right time, asking that one question the blogger wants to bloviate about? Perhaps it’s a coincidence.

Often times, the blogger shares smiley faces and chummy banter with “Undisclosed.” It’s almost like the blogger is having a conversation with himself. Perhaps he is.

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I am undisclosed. Often in order to shield my employer, so that I can discuss issues freely. No malevolent intent. In fact we have a large TruHikVision plant that we would not be rip and replacing if it weren't for Federal law.

We were not swayed in the least by you IPVM "bullies". We made informed choices based on our needs and budget. Our new choices are based on new Federal requirements NOT IPVM investigative journalism.

Genetec won't even allow HIK cameras into their VMS. Is that bullying or just a business/security decision? Keep on "blogging" IPVM.

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so what you are saying is (and correct me if I am wrong):

1. You/your company made a business decision to carry Hikvision

2. You/your company have decided that the evidence against Hikvision (from both the IPVM bullies and, increasingly, the western world at large) are without enough merit for you/your company to change your position on carrying Hikvision.

just so I am clear - is that right?

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I took Blaine's comment a bit differently. It was written in context of a reply. It seemed to me a bit tongue in cheek, that his decision was based on the intel, and not a (quote) blogger. His company is replacing HIK based on the law and the intel, not on a bully, so it's a refutation of HIK's galactically stupid statement on IPVM's involvement. That's just me, though.

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good point Brian - I can see that Blaine's post was maybe in the context you mention.

sarcasm is sometimes tough to gauge online, and it wouldn't be the first time I missed an intended nuance...

but I still read it again as saying the 2 things above I mentioned - until Blaine calls me an idiot for missing his wit. ; )

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Well name calling isn't my thing but feel free to look in a mirror and read that last line to yourself.

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Exactly

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"You/your company have decided that the evidence against Hikvision (from both the IPVM bullies and, increasingly, the western world at large)"

Can somebody please provide summary of all evidence against HIK

by "Western world and IPVM"?

Thanks

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Are you serious? You are an IPVM member, and certainly you have access to Google. Have you been living under a rock?

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Ok, you are another one brainwashed by IPVM

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Are you being ironic or are you serious?

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Both:)

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Can somebody please provide summary of all evidence against HIK by "Western world and IPVM"?

Maybe we can start with Lithuania's National Cyber Security Centre...

Hikvision Cybersecurity Vulnerabilities Reported By Lithuania Government

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Right on point one.

Totally Wrong on point two. We had made a business decision to replace our VMS and TruHikvision Recorders years ago (no budget until this year) and to purchase only 889 compliant cameras going forward. However the time frame for phasing out the Truvision recorders was set for 2+ years. The time frame for replacing existing Truvision cameras was set for lifecycle (~5-7 years).

If the FCC approves rule 2 the federal government is now in control of our deployment and decommision schedule.

These specifics are precisely why I generally post as anonymous but HikVision needs to know that there are REAL people behind these anonyomous posts not IPVM shills.

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Same here. Add to that The Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act bill that will likely pass.

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thanks for the clarification Blaine... :)

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This one is my favorite:

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"Roving Turret of Disparagement and Denigration"

I have to applaud that mastery of the English language, someone certainly got a 9 on his IELTS exam...

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In fairness, a roving turret is an apropos surveillance metaphor...

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Disclosure: I work for a camera manufacturer.

My experience is that when I talk to a system integrator or to an end user about the cyber security in the CCTV industry and explain/discuss some well know incidents involving Chinesse brands, I often get a feedback later from the customer like this: “IPVM is part of the USA Government orchestrated campaign against Chinesse made products”, “Donald Trump is to blame for the bans”.

The recent coverage of IPVM in LATAM market is very accurate of the reality here. Representatives from “HikHua” and their Distributors are very well trained to talk bad about IPVM articles about these brands. It is probably the #1 reason why IPVM is so well known in LATAM.

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“IPVM is part of the USA Government orchestrated campaign against Chinesse made products”, “Donald Trump is to blame for the bans”.

Do they know that Trump has not been president for 6 months and relationships have worsened with the PRC since?

As for IPVM, they have it 100% wrong. IPVM has led its own 'campaign', of my own free will and independent of the US government, against unethical actions, both domestically (e.g., read our Verkada coverage) and globally (e.g., Hikvision).

We've actually encouraged the US government to take these concerns more seriously, not the other way around. Does that help?

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Which is true. When it comes to dahua and hikvison nothing will convince me otherwise. I only registered for IPVM test and research articles.

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The old playing the victim routine.

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Bravo Hondo!

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Hey Hikvision! Its called reporting the Truth and facts. Keep it up IPVM. I personally look forward to your fact based reporting and analysis of the Security Camera Industry.

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That's never going to happen. Most of hikvison and Dahua are way to cheap for us as integrators to pass on.

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That's a real consideration. I do wonder how their model will change as overall market growth prospects decline, i.e., 5 years ago they could easily do 40% annual growth now they are so large and the market so mature that growth becomes much harder. Will this encourage them to raise prices or? Don't know. Obviously component shortages are driving price rises but it will be interesting to see Hikua's pricing strategy over the next few years.

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Good Luck.

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Good luck with what?

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I still believe IPVM wishes to see the downfall of hikvison and Dahua and I am saying these guys are innovative and cheap and I doubt we will see integrators moving away from them.

Have you looked at the dahua DSS Version 8 or the SMD 3.0 has improved a lot

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I doubt we will see integrators moving away from them.

In the US, once the ban is complete, integrators will move 99% away. Just the grey market and NOS will remain.

Other countries will see a slight downswing. They will say the FCC and BDAA don't affect them. But it will be hard optics to ignore.

And if you are an integrator vs a slammer or DIY, if your only criteria is the cheapest option, maybe you aren't an integrator.

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In the US, once the ban is complete, integrators will move 99% away. Just the grey market and NOS will remain.

Product from China is like a river towards the falls.

It’s going over, one way or another.

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The Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act

If the law or FCC ban passes it will stop completely or are you suggesting that the product is so good and cheap people will risk going to jail to get it?

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Sure, Hikua might stop completely. But why would you ever think that cheap Chinese product would stop, without at least a total ban on China?

Nothing special about Hikua that won’t be replicated, given time.

And maybe Longse or whomever will have learned the lesson, and stay out of HR controversy.

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And maybe Longse or whomever will have learned the lesson, and stay out of HR controversy.

Until, as a chinese company, the gov there effectively forces them to do what the gov wants, or they will be out of business.

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Nothing special about Hikua that won’t be replicated, given time.

It's an excellent question to discuss but I do not think it will be that easy. Hikua had a number of advantages in their era (2010s): (1) PRC was widely not viewed as a security and military threat back then, so not much opposition to such companies during that time. (2) There's not much more to race prices down (would Hikua 2.0 take prices to $10 per camera). (3) Video surveillance is moving to the cloud, which puts greater emphasis on software and security, areas that are less conducive to such expansion.

Thoughts?

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"That's a real consideration. I do wonder how their model will change as overall market growth prospects decline, i.e., 5 years ago they could easily do 40% annual growth now they are so large and the market so mature that growth becomes much harder. Will this encourage them to raise prices or? Don't know. Obviously component shortages are driving price rises but it will be interesting to see Hikua's pricing strategy over the next few years"

They will need to move some of the slave labor resources around or increase them, automate different, higher cost, aspects of production and logistics to reduce costs further, re-imagine the potential for new entities and products created in other countries and better conceal their involvement with said new entities. The new products will need to have entirely different firmware and hardware in order to continue reasonable growth. This may already be in the works. John may also have to start looking over his shoulder in the parking lot or home as he is tugging on the tail of a snake that has done far worse for far less. What happens to IPVM should John experience a catastrophic personal event? I suspect the others would not be able to keep it operating anywhere near it's current level. John, it may be time for a personal security team...

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As a govt integrator, no HIK for a couple years now an have removed any HIK equipment. Sad because it was actually pretty good. On the other hand, the Amazon/relabeling market will pretty much just buy whatever gets 4-5 stars and is cheap. The fact that its owned by CPC is pretty much negligent as "China is home to 109 corporations listed on the Fortune Global 500 - but only 15% of those are privately owned. " World Economic Forums

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the Amazon/relabeling market will pretty much just buy whatever gets 4-5 stars and is cheap

Sadly, it seems as though Amazon is now about 98% knockoff Chinese products. There are even what I believe are counterfeit 3M N95 and N100 masks on there to this day.

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The sad part is that people think HIK has quality products and cheap prices.

Avigilon, Axis, Hanwha make good quality product's.

And no one in a communist country is profitting from, or is supported by the sale of those product's. Nor do any of those manufacturers have any human rights violations.

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Communist or not, how is that our problem?

These human abuse rights that you claim to know so much, where do we fit in?Flir is selling cameras to the US government and in turn those cameras are used on drones to bomb other countries. If we would think like that then we wouldn't buying any product on this planet.

Bottom line every country has some form of GDPR. In South Africa you have POPi and I believe as long as one is adhering to the rules and regulations of their country then everything is fine. Let the Chinese deal with their human rights issue. Every country has their own problems.

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So they took a 'Hik'...or is it pronounced 'Hike'?

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I always way it like "Hick", but then again I'm a Texan so I'm partial to that word.

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I ran into someone that saw the word Hikvision (I’m in Ohio) and said, “Hickvision? Isn’t that what they have in the country?” I’ve always pronounced it as Hikevision.

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Ipvm- so,you are cool. I would not like to be among your enemies))

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"Ipvm- so,you are cool. I would not like to be among your enemies))"

Like I was commenting earlier; John may want to start considering a security detail. There is a considerable amount of $$$ at stake here. I'll keep my eye on the news in his area...

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It is a compliment to IPVM that your coverage has so offended an entity which not only violates human rights, but may very well be a threat to the peace and security of the world.

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I used to think Hik had some decent management level folks, but really, this is what they came up with as a plan of defense! These are the reactions of a 6 year old, like "I can't believe we got caught. Oh well, let's blame IPVM and it will go away!" There are consequences and these big corporations are getting away with not being held accountable. I don't want IPVM to back down, I want IPVM to ramp up and expose more wrong doings from Hikua and all the other law breakers.

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Considering how certain members of authoritarian political parties in the United States cry fake news any time the news exposes them... It's a fairly popular play. Not effective in the scope of actual truth, but popular.

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Ignore the fact that we are 41.88% state owned by a regime that runs concentration camps, slave labor, forced abortions, organ harvesting, and racial profiling of an entire race of human beings... because IPVM is a big meanie.

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"Ignore the fact that we are 41.88% state owned by a regime that runs concentration camps, slave labor, forced abortions, organ harvesting, and racial profiling of an entire race of human beings... because IPVM is a big meanie."

Oh, I'm glad to hear you have ceased purchasing ALL china originated products. Wait, you haven't though, right? I hope you do if you expect any real results with respect to the slave labor; ceasing purchase of 2 mfg's hardware alone will have no effect...

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Hikvision: This blogger bullies me so I am going to quit a completely unrelated organization.

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In fairness, Hikvision (falsely) alleged that:

IPVM obtained an associate membership into SIA and leveraged that into Board seats and other spheres of influence within the organization

This awkwardly resulted in SIA's CEO defending us and correcting them to SIW:

Erickson told SIW that IPVM is a “regular member” and that they serve on the Government Relations Committee, however; they do not have a leadership role on that committee, nor do they have a board seat.

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Basically they don't like one of the other kids on the playground. So they took their ball and went home.

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Maybe they can use this as their excuse as to why they left (kicked out) of ONVIF. Or Google app store. etc. etc. etc. Always some else's fault, and they are an ethical company that values the industry and competes fairly, and considers cybersecurity paramount. lol

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Hikvision: This blogger bullies me so I am going to quit a completely unrelated organization.

I just really really hope the blogger concerned has really good cyber defences, I can see a 'random' cyber attack coming their way.

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Oh, that's just hilarious. fetch me my violin.

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If this is their reaction, The Uyghur Forced Labor Prevention Act is REALLY going to make them weep.

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I'm glad there are still people like those of IPVM. Continue in your work like this. I can't do much, but I will support you with my subscription.

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Lol blogger side kick here, code name “Undisclosed”

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The actions / reactions by hakvision make me think of a schoolyard bully

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Way to go!

I would gladly pay even double the annual subscription cost to keep IPVM impartial and keep advocating to eradicate bad actors from the industry.

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Was IPVM contacted for comment? Will you be reaching out to Politico to offer your side of the story?

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That's a great question. Enquiring minds want to know. (See what I did there. I can't count the number of times I have been told that a manufacturer considers IPVM to be the "National Enquirer of the Security industry")

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In a resignation letter obtained by the outlet, the surveillance giant "said the continued actions of IPVM, which has long railed against the use of Hikvision technologies for various reasons, have become too much to bear..."

for various reasons... that made me spit out my cheerios when I read it this morning eating breakfast. it's such a whitewashing of what Hik has actually done over the years that I would be embarrassed to use such a term in the context of that sentence.

at what point does various become numerous - or even continuous?

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Hard to imagine how they could have chosen to make a comment like that (about being bullied) which only further damages their reputation. Why not bow out gracefully, and appeal to the typical corporate-political style of spinning and say something like '...we feel this is in the company's best interests' or 'we are reviewing our business model'...something along those lines instead of throwing mud.

Even more stunning, is how this reflects on the PRC gov. Not great for public image there either.

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So NOW I read the SIW article. Cry me a river HikVision. As a current and former consumer of your product you have done nothing here but damage your standing with a longstanding customer.

“It has been disappointing and frustrating to witness the cynical, anti-competitive, unscrupulous, and disingenuous efforts of IPVM to target member companies and undermine the mission of SIA with its invective and opaque financial motives. " So much wrong here but let's start with the fact that IPVM is not a competitor and does not work on behalf of any manufacturer.

"“IPVM has harassed and maligned fellow members of SIA via a coordinated effort, from unethical hacking of Hikvision cameras, to misleading blog stories about those hacks, to surreptitiously seeding those stories in mainstream media sources, to then using those stories as the basis for lobbying efforts at the FCC and Congress to effectively ban fellow SIA members from U.S. markets,” the letter continues. “This is not the behavior of a member living out the ideals of professionalism, respect, honesty, integrity, transparency, and good faith that all SIA members are called to respect.”"

unethical hacking of Hikvision cameras? They BOUGHT Hik manufactured cameras, hacked them and then published the results but NOT the method of exploit. That is the very definition of ethical hacking.

"to then using those stories as the basis for lobbying efforts at the FCC and Congress to effectively ban"

Wait that is news! IPVM is the lobbyist responsible for the FCC and congress writing the rules and law (Sec 889) now impacting covered equipment. You folks really are powerful. Will you please write a rule that gives us the 3 million dollars we need for this rip and replace?

"“Yet the antics and agenda of IPVM, as an associate member of the SIA, has itself compromised the SIA’s operating system and placed its own infected code into the organization, turning what should be an advocate for the actual industry into an advocate against Hikvision as we try to compete fairly in the marketplace,” the letter states." IPVM as organizational malware. How does that work, exactly?

"

John's response stands on it's own.

"Hikvision hides that it was under investigation for violating the SIA ethics code, based on a complaint we filed four months ago, on March 15, 2021. Hikvision, like Dahua which SIA recently expelled, has a long track record of unethical behavior and human rights abuses. Rather than risk being expelled, Hikvision has chosen to quit and blame IPVM. That is what Hikvision does," Honovich said in a statement. "Hikvision alleges that it did not 'knowingly' or 'intentionally' commit human rights abuses despite having direct contracts to build and operate these systems. Hikvision alleges that its joint PLA China Army research to improve the 'lethality' of missiles was done by its workers in their 'personal capacity.' And when Hikvision specifically marketed "Uyghur" detecting cameras on its own website it alleged its own website was incorrect. IPVM is proud of our efforts to expose unethical actions around the world."

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15 years ago, the market was for big companies like Honeywell, Bosch, Axis etc., and that was a time using IP cameras needs to pay license fee for each camera.

Hikvision and other China CCTV camera manufacturer, if I remember correct, firstly started to sell IP cameras without paying license fee.

I think a real integrator will not deny this advances the whole industry into to an open and competitive one.

However, Companies always try to integrate as much service as they can no matter 15 years ago or now. From a technical perspective, Hikvision systems is implementing cyber security measures that there are heaps of company doesn't integrate that part yet; Hikvision system is relatively open compared to some other companies trying to set challenges to technicians for a easy task like adding cameras into their system, and this sometimes means you need to take a course to do that.

To be honest, what happens if Windows is no longer exist? Hikvision spends decades to built a system and keep the eco advancing like Axis/Avigilon do. Hikvision needs to pay what was done wrongly, but the way IPVM putting this is not neutral anymore IMO.

Let justice system do its job and if it doesn't, the system is the one should be blamed.

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15 years ago, the market was for big companies like Honeywell, Bosch, Axis etc., and that was a time using IP cameras needs to pay license fee for each camera.

Hikvision and other China CCTV camera manufacturer, if I remember correct, firstly started to sell IP cameras without paying license fee.

No, a 'license fee for each camera' is not correct. And PRC manufacturers were not even first with low-cost IP cameras, e.g., there was ACTi from Taiwan. The difference with Dahua and Hikvision is that they combined low-cost with heavy sales and marketing expenditure, which was disruptive because, until then, buyers had to choose between low price and low support / low sales staff.

this advances the whole industry into to an open and competitive one.

It's a product not of an open market but one where Hikvision and Dahua rivals were blocked out of China and then Hikvision and Dahua used the resulting profits to launch that unprecedented combination of low-cost with heavy sales and marketing expenditure.

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It's a product not of an open market but one where Hikvision and Dahua rivals were blocked out of China…

Even if they* weren’t blocked, do you think Axis, Avigilon etc. could have taken enough business away in China from Hikua to actually hobble their US expansion?

Wouldn’t Hikua’s home field advantage; reduced sales, logistics and export costs, made it even harder for the West to compete in China than in the US?

*assuming you mean non-Chinese rivals

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and then Hikvision and Dahua used the resulting profits to launch that unprecedented combination of low-cost with heavy sales and marketing expenditure.

your reference to Johns quote left out that part.

probably because it is this practice - sometimes referred to as 'dumping' - that is Chinas go-to strategy to overtake many markets, with Hikua et al being only one industry of many that China has historically attacked with this economic weapon.

*Edit: I do not disagree with your assumption that Hikua would still have won the vast majority of Chinese mainland surveillance camera contracts.

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probably because it is this practice - sometimes referred to as 'dumping' - that is Chinas go-to strategy to overtake many markets,

And yet, to be effective, dumping has to eliminate or at least cripple the dominant players, otherwise there is no price control and no payback.

But Axis, Techwin, Avigilon all grew during the “bloodletting”.

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But Axis, Techwin, Avigilon all grew during the “bloodletting”

Yes, but realistically by how much?

Assuming hakvision / dahscum have increased their US sales by a factor of 10 in the last few years have the others?

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But Axis, Techwin, Avigilon all grew during the “bloodletting”.

No, remember Axis Video Revenue Down (Q3 2016), during the peak 'race to the bottom', Axis pivoted to speakers, microphones, selling more VMS, etc. to compensate for the fact that their camera business was under immense pressure.

Techwin revenue really only took off post Hikvision backdoor / NDAA ban. They had their own issues before that including 2014: Samsung Surveillance Sold Off To Hanwha.

Avigilon did grow but Avigilon has never competed in the low-cost market that Hikvision and Dahua did best in.

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No, remember Axis Video Revenue Down (Q3 2016), during the peak 'race to the bottom…

Ok, I believe everything you’re saying.

But, the larger point is the alleged “dumping” did not lead to the insolvency of their major competitors, so the technique didn’t work.

@U10, I’m not saying that Hikua didn’t put enormous pressure on the industry and have severe repercussions - I’m saying if the strategy was to sell at a loss to drive their competitors out of the market, thereby letting them recoup their losses thru monopolistic pricing, it clearly failed.

Nor am I saying China would not pursue such a strategy, take for example rare earths:

China’s domination of the rare earth element market (Figure 14) illustrates the potentially dangerous interaction between Chinese economic aggression, guided by its strategic industrial policies and vulnerabilities and gaps in America’s manufacturing and defense industrial base. China has strategically flooded the global market with rare earths at subsidized prices, driven out competitors, and deterred new market entrants. When China needs to flex its soft power muscles by embargoing rare earths, it does not hesitate, as Japan learned in a 2010 maritime dispute.

But the surveillance market was much more fragmented than the RE market, and therefore less likely to succeed.

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But, the larger point is the alleged “dumping” did not lead to the insolvency of their major competitors, so the technique didn’t work.

dumping is a long-term strategy - and elimination of all competitors is almost never the outcome of these kinds of strategies.

instead, domination of markets is the goal, not elimination of all other competitors.

But the surveillance market was much more fragmented than the RE market, and therefore less likely to succeed.

I think this is exactly right.

would you agree that Hikua has/had already succeeded in dominating the low-end US surveillance market and were positioning to move upstream to enterprise level?

further, would you agree that without the various US Govt bans that they would have succeeded similarly at the enterprise level?

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would you agree that Hikua has/had already succeeded in dominating the low-end US surveillance market and were positioning to move upstream to enterprise level?

Yes, they dominate, a segment.

But dominance of a segment (esp. one defined by price) alone does not make sense, unless they are making money while doing it.

If they are, it’s not dumping.

If they’re not making money, then unless they can substantially reduce the means of production, they cannot recoup their dumping investment.

Did that happen? No.

Even if they were to kill off most other low cost offerings, the problem with dominance of a price segment still remains, if you raise prices all of a sudden you’re in a new segment with competing in that segment with established competitors.

At the same time, the Longsee’s of the world ramp up to take the segment you abandoned.

It’s just way too fragmented a market to pull off successfully, though again you can certainly hurt everyone.

Do you think Hikua is really selling cameras at a loss in the US?

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Yes, they dominate, a segment.

But dominance of a segment (esp. one defined by price) alone does not make sense, unless they are making money while doing it.

dominating the low-end segment is the short game, imo.

the money is in the high-end and that's where they were headed before the US Govt bans.

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the money is in the high-end and that's where they were headed before the US Govt bans.

So the “Race to the Bottom” was really a “Race to the Top” ?

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So the “Race to the Bottom” was really a “Race to the Top” ?

that's funny - but I would surmise that, because of the fragmentation of the surveillance industry you mentioned, that the race to the bottom was just the needed precursor to any race to the top.

did Genetec also think this, causing them to make their move against Hik back in 2016? I don't know... but a decent argument could be made that the answer to that question is yes.

*Edit: and yes, I know that Genetec doesn't make cameras.

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did Genetec also think this, causing them to make their move against Hik back in 2016?

Perhaps they did.

And yet Hik still refuses to sell in the US the only product that could be considered competition to Genetec - iVMS 5200.

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5200 is / has become HikConnect which they do sell in the US - Central Management System | Hikvision US | The world’s largest video surveillance manufacturer

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I stand corrected.

If only Calhoun were still here I wouldn’t have missed it:

HIKCENTRAL NOW AVAILABLE!!!

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IPVM Image

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SSI covered this: Hikvision Submits Membership Resignation Letter to SIA

The China-based video surveillance manufacturer alleges years-long harassment from IPVM for its decision to resign from the association.

Cybersecurity site The Record covered this: Dahua, Hikvision out of security camera industry group - The Record by Recorded Future

Both Dahua and Hickvision, two of China’s largest security camera makers, are no longer members of the Security Industry Association (SIA), the largest trade organization for surveillance vendors in what appears to be the fallout from the two state-owned companies collaborating with Chinese officials in their oppression of the Uyghur minority.

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I love this Hikvision quote:

"IPVM has harassed and maligned fellow members of SIA via a coordinated effort, from unethical hacking of Hikvision cameras, to misleading blog stories about those hacks, to surreptitiously seeding those stories in mainstream media sources, to then using those stories as the basis for lobbying efforts at the FCC and Congress to effectively ban fellow SIA members from U.S. markets. This is not the behavior of a member living out the ideals of professionalism, respect, honesty, integrity, transparency, and good faith that all SIA members are called to respect."

I assume the "unethical hacking" is potentially referring to the Hacked Hikvision IP Camera Map USA And Europe, which was created primarily because at the time that backdoor was publicized Hikvision was actively downplaying it and denying the potential impact. No cameras were altered in the process of creating the maps, and the data was collected via use of functionality that Hikvision put in their firmware without disclosing its existence to users, and without giving users a way to disable it (a backdoor). Hard to call that "unethical hacking", IMO.

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