Dahua has conducted a coronavirus camera global marketing campaign centered around a faked detection.
Now, Dahua has expanded this to the USA, where the company is banned by the US government for US government use and in 4 months, banned for US government funding and blacklisting those who use it to sell to the US government. Plus, Dahua is sanctioned for human rights abuses. The Dahua USA team is ramping up marketing, along with a number of unscrupulous relabellers who hide the true origin of their offerings.
Inside this note, we examine Dahua's faked marketing, how it puts US buyers at risk and the broader problems of coronavirus camera sales.
Why do you think that is not possible. I have been using my 2006 FLIR camera for many years, being able to after the fact analyze any temperatures of items in the FOV of the sensor. I assume that technology is better today with less of a margin of error on good tech. Though we moved away from China products awhile ago, I would probably have an open mind today that maybe, since they are 3 months ahead of us with the virus, maybe they have devoted resources to create a more accurate detection system.
Now i know you do not measure outside like these guys getting of the train. It can be more effective in common hallways inside businesses and establishments. with chokepoints. We can only speculate unless we have spent quite a bit of time testing in these applications, which maybe the Chinese have done out of need.
The technology and application is valid. The train picture is not. The writer decrying the technology claim may be biased based on the manufacturer name, I would guess.
Jeffrey, thanks for the feedback. Even Dahua itself in the details is not claiming to do anything close to that, even indoors.
It can be more effective in common hallways inside businesses and establishments. with chokepoints
Agreed and if their lead global marketing image was a checkpoint, that would be fine.
I have been using my 2006 FLIR camera for many years, being able to after the fact analyze any temperatures of items in the FOV of the sensor. I assume that technology is better today with less of a margin of error on good tech.
The issue here is making fine grade distinction between fever elevated temperature (like 100°F) and normal temperature like 98.6°F. That's why Dahua requires the blackbody to always be in the FoV next to the person getting their temperature screened (which is impossible in the marketing image). They have not found any innovation in the last 3 months and if they simply and clearly made that known from the start of the marketing, that would be fine.
If it's not Hik, it's Dahua or whitelabeled Hik or Dahua. They continue to stoop as low as they can go, and don't seem bothered at all by security flaws, unethical marketing practices or human rights abuses. I guess it's all about selling products that fit an unscrupulous or uninformed integrators' margin model.
Grundig in Europe is posting similar camera on various VMS's claiming they can accurately measure temps.
Thermal Bullet model no. GD-TI-BT2510T, Which is a HikVisionS-2TD2636B-15/P, DS-2TD2637B-10/P). They are not denying it's an OEM'ed.
Would you kindly verify if this camera would be able to accurately detect temperatures. And they are proposing to using it on door entrance for people entering hospitals. One by one entry kind of thing.
First, let me just say we haven't tested the Hikvision/Grundig model, so we cannot confirm performance.
I personally would say that that camera should use a black body calibrator for better accuracy, which Hikvision recommends in some of their documentation (but not all), but Grundig makes no mention of. Most of the cameras we have looked at recently require or recommend a black body, and from our discussions with people in the field, black bodies can help in these cases (though they add cost and potential points of failure). With that in place, it's possible it could be fairly accurate, but I would follow their recommendations on placement and use very closely and strongly recommend a proof of concept test in the place it's intended to be installed before purchasing, confirmed with proper thermometers.
It can accurately measure temp and is not designed to work outdoors. If outdoor use is required it is recommended to use a tent at a choke point to keep wind and other extraneous conditions at bay.
recommended to use a tent at a choke point to keep wind and other extraneous conditions at bay.
While a number of manufacturers have recommended this, it is unclear how you make that work accurately consistently (for any system). For example, if it's particularly hot or cold outside, as people enter, the color or hot air will come in and that draft will impact performance of the system.
Depends what is indoor/outdoor difference. In some area without controlled climate no way. One of the parameters is background temperature. It can change but not too much. So far must be near 25 deg. Cannot be 15 or 35. Additionaly when people enter tent or room from cold/hot outside area is necessary some time before measurment can be done (before their top skin layer has too much different temperature then his body has). Is recommended that 20 seconds is enough for Dahua systems. Of course - more time mean less wrong measurements. Yes - there is issue to measure exactly on gate into building. Better to arrange measurement somewhere inside.
or is IPVM now on the new-stands / grocery check outs along side the National Enquirer and other tabloids? (Faked, Banned, misleading headlines.)
IPVM does some great reviews and investigative reporting but the headlines all too often are trash. Some of the reporting too...
I would encourage IPVM to become more fact based, real testing and education.
Buy this, test it, have a video of of being tested in various scenarios, show the good and the bad. Please bring value not trash!
To your human right comment: I heard that the same people / group have a subscription to your service and now IPVM should be banned. No one has control over who buys products and how they are used. I do not condone human rights violations but are these the companies you accuse of doing this or a government. If the government then you should ban your laptop, monitor, iphone too.... (And yes Hik is owned partially by them - this was great investigative reporting. But let's keep the facts straight)
Can we get back to reality
thanks for the good work, look forward to it getting even better.
I heard that the same people / group have a subscription to your service and now IPVM should be banned
Financially and practically, I have no qualm with banning Dahua and Hikvision from accessing IPVM. It's very little money. Like the PRC subscribes to the WSJ, PRC controlled companies subscribe to IPVM. If I ban them, though, I worry about further accusations of bias and unfair treatment.
Not currently, given its ~$13,000, it's banned for much of US government use, will be blacklisted in less than 4 months and we know a variety of people already using so we have various field reports.
Part of our challenge generally is how to properly test a fever system without having access to lots of people with fevers.
The first one we are looking to buy is the Seek $2,000 one as we think the price point + US company + credible approach gives it high potential, if it works.
Have you reached out to ask Dahua or any others for a demo unit for testing, You seem to test all the expensive systems as it is Axis etc.. So why is the price point an issue?
Also, I'm not a politician. What do you mean exactly that their system will be blacklisted in 4 months? What are you thinking is going to happen and how might that impact any current owners or purchasers of their products?
Why would the US not open up to allow a product that may help get our workforce back to productivity.
By saying that you could be hurting many legitimate businesses that are trying to provide solutions to the field, so I'd like to understand the timeline and what you are trying to say.
John, I'm asking these questions because, I respect your unbiased opinion. I'm feeling here that you may have a chip or bias to this product line because Axis and Flir have said not possible or maybe other experts say not possible? As an engineer, I'm looking for you to be able to provide good and bad results in a controlled manner, so that we can make informed buying decisions.
In reading all the threads, I haven't changed my opinion. We have a bunch of creeps racing to a gold-rush selling snake-oil and we may also have some good nuggets of value here that can provide help. If you feel that one solution is too expensive over another, that's a fair assessment, but I feel like it's up to us and the end-users to level the market with their/our checkbooks.
What do you mean exactly that their system will be blacklisted in 4 months?
Read: White House Proposes Blacklist of Dahua, Hikvision Users. This has been in the works for 2 years now, so if you sell or use Dahua or Hikvision you will be blocked out of US government projects. We have an upcoming story with a new government official talking about this.
Why would the US not open up to allow a product that may help get our workforce back to productivity.
Thanks for that, as you know ADI is not retail, - But you may want to check their MAP or MSRP pricing for accuracy. It's north of $23k Also, Dahua most recent documentation shows a different camera model - so you may want to check that out.
DH-TPC-BF5421-T Thermal Hybrid Network Camera JQ-D70Z Blackbody DHI-NVR5216-16P-I 16-channel NVR with Face Recognition 2x Tripods 2x Connectors
I still suggest you should reach out to your contacts over there and see if you can get a system to test. We are all wanting to know the honest truth from an unbiased investigative journalist perspective and then the opinion as a conclusion. I think a lot of people listen to your commentary and I'm wondering if you can remain unbiased about products and technology.
One of the most notable elements is that they are selling this for 'just' $2,500 USD per kit, compared to 4x that price even for typical China options. For example, Dahua's thermal temperature measurement kit sells for over $13,000 online, while InVid's (Sunell OEM) body temperature camera sells for ~$10,000+.
Not formally, but I just did, based on your request.
I spoke with Dahua. They say they have no units to loan to anyone, including IPVM, which is what was also mentioned on the ADI webinar today that Rob recapped. They are also 30 days back-ordered (at least in the US).
We will re-evaluate this at the end of April. If Dahua's thermal temperature usage continues to grow, we might buy one than.
I like when some one has comments like this .... no testing just using some general words. I tested the solution for several days and I was more than surprised by good results.
I am also surprised that IPVM did not test the device and published such a article ...
Please try to order or borrow the set and than write articles.
sorry but writing articles based on banner from the website its funny
I did a lot of tests with the picture of the face, face covered with the mask, wearing head and so on and the accuracy was even more than 0.3 degrees Celsius
We have just commissioned three sets for a pharma client in Ireland (all internal locations) following rigorous testing in our offices before deployment on site. I must admit that we were very surprised with the accuracy of the units both in the office and especially on site. Generally i would be quick to put Dahua down but i must say their thermal solution works extremely well and our client is happy with the outcome which is the main thing for us. They have even ordered a fourth unit for site.
Are you not happy that he's bringing attention to false advertising or are you saying that it's not false advertising and he should confirm that before he calls it that?
Then you go to compare a system inside a hallway (very controlled environment) with blackbody where people walk in almost exact single-file line with that they were advertising in an "outdoor" train station. How is that a valid comparison?
Sad to see IPVM have such a biased opinion that instead of taking a objective look at the Product / Solution to determine if the product works and where it’s best suited for us integrators who may have clients interested in this potential off network solution. The thing is, does it have a potential opportunity to help people, yes I do think it does. Aside from all the bad stuff about the company, does that mean that we as integrators, tasked to find workable solutions for this unprecedented event in life, just pretend this doesn’t exist because it’s from China John? So with that mindset, I have to ask, do you suggest we say hell no to all those ventilators that are being purchased by FEMA from China, because Chinese company’s make them? If that it IPVM’s official position, then I believe it really calls into question what IPVM’s real goal is! Are you a source of Unbiased, Objective research and industry information? Or is your absolute hatred for Chinese Manufacturers, all equipment and technology, and so forth. Does your biases command and therefore set the tone for all information you all as an organization publish for us to view and for us paying members to consume and trust. Because in this case, IPVM posted what I feel was a “Click Baited” graphic stamped faked! Where I do agree that the Image was not a true setting, I have been researching this system for two weeks now, following all of IPVM’s articles, basically waiting to see what your opinions would be here. Now the Click Bait image that you guys liked so much that you used their art work as your own, but edited with a blasting “FAKED” stamp, you failed to deliver any use or substance regarding the products pro’s, con’s, capabilities, review of any kind in fact. Rather you guys decided to write an article on the bases of their Marketing Image, that honesty I wouldn’t have paid enough attention that it was a train or subway car nor if it had a black body. In fact, if your bases for slamming this marketing was the image of the train, why did you not mention that cameras don’t float in the Air without mounting. If we setting the standards of calling something fake in a marketing image, I think we call them out on those Fake Cameras that Float too. I mean when you get down to the nuts and bolts of this, that is what you are slamming them for. It’s honestly a bit disconcerting to see IPVM who until know, I saw as a fairly unbiased publication or online source of information. But you kind of went to far and are out to get the company, like your the TV Show “To Catch A Predator”. I don’t pay annual membership fees to read the “Gotcha” articles, I purchase it to read informative, unbiased information. Unfortunately, you missed your mark and your purpose here, which is disappointing.
BTW, don’t work for a Manufacturer, don’t work for a distributor, rep firm, nor any other bias’d organization. I don’t buy Dahua not Hik-Vision products because of their culture, crimes against people, and I believe we should bring back ALL manufacturing to the US. However, if Dahua has a product that no one else has or can provide, it works per the data-sheet, I don’t sell or recommend to my clients based on a website image or marketing flyer, and hope the other integrators don’t sell or recommend technology before doing their own vetting. But in times like these, if it helps people, even a little, even if it’s not perfect, should we not all take the best ideas available and attempt to help our clients. I think times like these, we should do and provide what our clients need or can help, while fully disclosing that it’s new, it’s not exact, it’s got no approval by the FDA, but it’s a close solution that I would operate offline because of security risk and the NDAA, that it can’t be purchased with Government Funds, and is not NDAA compliant. But if it helps get your employees back to work because your clients making an effort to screen and then secondary screen for temperatures as per OSHA and the CDC’s recommendation of having employees check temperatures prior to coming to work in essential businesses, then yes, absolutely we should let our customers know all the information we can find, and probably should mention that according to IPVM they used a thermal image of a train/subway car as a marketing image and if they were interested in buy because they needed to have a floating thermal camera that read temps of exiting passengers from a train, that IPVM said they faked that image but could not provide any other information saying if it did or did not work. Just that their marketing image was fake.
anyways, enough said and hope everyone is staying safe and healthy out there. Lastly, here is a video on Dahua site of a video of what appears to be the system in action in mid March, looks real enough to me, but it’s not a train just fyi!!
while fully disclosing that it’s new, it’s not exact, it’s got no approval by the FDA, but it’s a close solution that I would operate offline because of security risk and the NDAA, that it can’t be purchased with Government Funds, and is not NDAA compliant.
I think that's great if you do that but you are likely 1 in 10 that take that honest route.
However, if Dahua has a product that no one else has or can provide
Dahua does not have a unique product here. Two US companies, FLIR and ICI have been doing this for many years. Seek, ran by ex-FLIR people, just launched a similar blackbody based system for 80% lower price than Dahua.
I am interested to know if there has been much research done into what exactly the details were related around Flir’s sale of the Lorax brand to Dahua back in 2018. Do you know if that was a cash type sale of the Lorax brand to Dahua or did Dahua make an investment in FLIR’s brand and product beyond the simple sale off of that segment. Being that FLIR has such a big Government and Military segment I would think this was examined; however, being that FLIR is a publicly traded company, I’d be curious if there is ways to determine if Dahua took stock in the FLIR brand as part of that purchase. It would be quite interesting if Dahua somehow captured some of this Tech from FLIR, who you have mentioned was doing this back during the SARS breakout. I only ask because sometimes these big hyped things like this, can sometimes reveal more important or interesting details into these manufacturers and their shareholders.
Note: this is simply a thought that derived from research into the technology bases of this solution across the board. Should the above be in anyway correct, that could certainly create a really interesting conversation. Now granted, I again am proposing a question, as this is complete speculation as to any tie there. I just found that 2018 sell off of the Lorax brand to Dahua as interesting. Why would Dahua care to buy Lorax brand, they didn’t really offer anything special tech wise that I know of.
Why would Dahua care to buy Lorax brand, they didn’t really offer anything special tech wise that I know of. Thoughts?
One, Dahua was the primary OEM supplier to Lorex so buying Lorex protected / ensured those Dahua sales remained. Two, Dahua wants to sell volume in North America and Lorex is fairly solid in that respect. Three, Dahua acquired the FLIR SMB management team (Wayne Hurd, et al.) which was an improvement over what they had internally.
The thermal element was never an issue in the Dahua / Lorex / FLIR relationship. Indeed, those FLIR thermal cameras for body temperature come from a completely different division than the security group that Dahua and Lorex dealt with.
Moreover, the technology is different. Dahua requires a blackbox while FLIR offers elevated body temperature without a blackbox.
Please allow me to summarize your post succinctly:
I took IPVMs article as an unbiased attack on a company's product rather than realize that it's exposing false advertising, and explaining why it's false, even though I agree that we should not be selling these companies products and further I think we should buy much less foreign produced product in favor of US made product.
As a US integrator I don't understand why I shouldn't look at technology from a company that I can't even sell in the US to any govt entity, which makes the rest of my post moot.
I agree it was false advertising but I don't like that you stamped a big "FAKE" graphic on it, because I didn't pay attention to the rest of your article explaining why it was fake/false.
Finally, I think we should be able to look at a product for our customers even though it won't do what our customer needs it to do.
Hi John, we have applied this system already in Czech and can confirm it works! Is not perfect, has various anoying issues but when talking about measurement precision it can do what is promissing, which mean +/- 0.3 deg. C people measurement. Well, it does not measure temperature from side but definitely is VERY usefull for current situation when people in healthcare system is in danger of their lifes and is critical to stop fever on their doors. So I guess to talk about "fake marketing" is this time your overshot.
This article sure seems written by someone with a strong dislike for Dahua. Misleading statements like "banned by the US government" when the full statement is much different than that, was just a beginner line to trash them. I can't seem to find anything on this flyer that says this image is actual footage from the detection system. It is misleading, but, so is the article. Pot, meet kettle.
I can't seem to find anything on this flyer that says this image is actual footage from the detection system.
In the US, the way we understand it working from years of reviewing manufacturer marketing is that the image needs to be actual or there needs to be a disclaimer that it's not. The exception is that if it's obviously satire or humor or so clearly exaggerated (like detecting a martian with a fever on Mars).
The title literally described what has happened here - Dahua Faked Coronavirus Camera Marketing
Misleading statements like "banned by the US government"
I've updated that so it's more detailed in how the banning works - banned by the US government for US government use and in 4 months, banned for US government funding and blacklisting those who use it to sell to the US government.
Here in Brazil Intelbras is selling a thermal camera to measure body temperature, with a coupled product called MTc 9000. Dahua acquired a% of Intelbras. IPVM knows something about this MTc 9000 (specifications below).
Here is the description of each of the equipment in the solution: 1.1.1 IP thermal video camera - VIP 7400 TH MT cid: image015.jpg@01D5FEBD.1436FE00 The VIP 7400 TH MT is a thermal camera that has advanced video intelligence functions. It has the ability to measure the temperature of moving bodies quickly and with good accuracy, making it easier to identify the temperature of people, vehicles or materials on production conveyors. It can autonomously generate intelligent alerts and automate alarms and alerts by temperature or fire. It has a 400 x 300 high resolution thermal sensor on board, which has a temperature accuracy of ± 1 ° C. 1.1.2 Body temperature meter - MTC 9000 The MTC 9000 is a precision equipment for temperature measurement. Its advanced technology allows to control the temperature of a target surface, creating an important reference for the thermal camera. This equipment helps the camera to make the measurement more accurate (± 0.3 ° C), making the measurement efficient to identify people's temperature (which, very often, a very small variation already determines someone feverish and, consequently, suspected of being sick). 1.1.3 16-Channel IP Recorder with Artificial Intelligence - SVR 7116 IA The SVR 7116 IA is a high-capacity intelligent recorder with built-in facial recognition and the ability to communicate with thermal cameras. This equipment is compatible with the video intelligence of the LPR cameras, people counting, heat map, among others, facilitating the monitoring and delivering more information about the environment. In addition, it is capable of performing facial recognition on up to 4 channels using standard cameras. The recorder also has a forensic search function, which identifies the person's characteristics such as gender, age, facial expression, type and color of clothing, among others. It also has artificial intelligence, which detects people and vehicles that cross a line.
I think this whole body temperature detection is the biggest hype coming from the COVID19 crisis and there are plenty takers for panic money. Everyone is now a body temperature specialist and some nearly claim to be medics yet many people can have Corona and barely show any rise in body temperature. Corona can also be present in someone up to 4 days, when they can spread the virus, without any fever being present. It will create a false sense of security all round and big companies are wasting many ten's of thousands on kit which really offers no more than a best guess. All that wasted money should be spend on proper medical testing and not on some random temperature screening. Educating is what it's all about and people with symptoms, often a dry cough and body aches etc long before a fever, should stay at home and self isolate. But that's only my humble opinion.
I really don't know why marketing departments are using fake photos because they can use real one. Also I really don’t know why IPVM wrote article like that without testing.
Our company sold more than 50 sets in different sites and I can confirm that accuracy of the Dahua system's perfect.
We always test products first and when it’s working we can sell it. The same with this solution and I ordered one piece. When I saw how perfect it’s working we ordered another one. Also I can confirmed that I tested several different models even Dahua models and it didn’t work. Blackbody is needed part of human body solution.
Of course only indoor and of course person has be inside for several seconds. When temperature outside is -10C and we tried to measure immediately when person entered to building results were wrong. Of course in that time also digital laser thermometer shows wrong numbers.
From my point of view, the truth is that this technology is not yet stable. As long as you have to stay for more than 20 seconds ( some times you need minutes) in the building for your skin to be adapted to the ambient temperature, as long as you dont have to turn your head sideways, and as long as you cheat in marketing as if this technology works outside.
Every investment + 10K is an adventure for businesses and does not solve even a single problem. Personally i better prefer an access control from Longse which i can sell it $ 2K on end user which do face recognition and measures the temperature in real time.
Its static , very reliable, good looking, AI function, AIO device, solve more then one problem, minimum 6x cheaper and at the end i am not cheating my self and my customer for the saving life technology's like Da-Hik do 😉
After reading this article and all the comments, I believe that the Athena article was more valid. I question the accuracy of that system along with the fact that they haven't had this solution for that long. Timing is everything. I don't care for the lack of information provided by Athena and denying the Hikvision camera usage, even though it was the only camera featured on most of the material.
With Dahua, the video that Roman Roxer posted is much more believable in showing to me that the system is functional. Having the Blackbody shown in the material and in demonstration makes a lot more sense. While I don't agree with the marketing image in this case, having the photo of the camera clearly labeled on top of the photo leads me to believe that this is a marketing photo and not something taken from an actual scenario. The RedSpeed, aside from the leading image, was fairly informative and looks like images from the Dahua video were utilized.
I think the first paragraph isn't really necessary as a lead for the article. It could have been added to the end. Yes, Dahua and the US government don't go together, but that is tertiary to if the system actually works and can be verified to be working. The system working and being accurate is primary. The secondary issue is marketing. For Athena, they didn't respond with any meaningful data and I still don't believe it's accurate and if it works. For me, their response to poor marketing led to distrust of the solution, even if it does work.
Of course all these systems claim to detect elevated temperatures. This can be somewhat helpful, but I wouldn't extend that to mean saving lives. It's one tool that can help in identifying elevated temperature. It can't detect COVID-19 as Athena keeps claiming. A testing kit can do that, not a camera system.
I am curious to see how the Seek system performs. I can understand not wanting to spend the large amount of money on a system that will most likely go out of use in a few months to a year. I'm not sure what other use these systems could have in the future.
Just out of curiosity, when did this become the site where we published pricing from distributors and cost of items. I’m all for transparency, being there are a tremendous amount of end users on this platform, as well.
If this is what we are resorting to, I have about 5,000 item list of all the mainstream product pricing, including the various partner level pricing...
Should we list all the pricing, for all products, and so forth on IPVM also. I assume that would be fine with everyone sharing dealer cost of this item, for us to also share pricing for everything else.
Would that be a fair assumption to make based on the free flow of dealer cost in this case?
We do not normally nor randomly list such prices. This is a special case where there’s lots of confusion about what the actual pricing is and what the components are.
I sat in on the ADI Temperature Monitoring Solution Webinar which included Dahua's fever screening solution and here are some notes/highlights:
Can’t measure persons temperature when walking right into door - set up artificial barrier so skin surface temp can normalize.
Cannot be installed outdoors.
Blackbody is recommended to bring accuracy to ± 0.3C
Can use without Blackbody but accuracy drops to within ~2°F (which is too wide to be useful)
Blackbody needs to be in scene for constant calibration source
Due to high demand no loaner gear, no returns.
warranty ~1 year camera and black body (much lower than 3 - 5 years for normal products)
lead time 30 days
Emphasized that not a medical device and not intended to diagnose:
However, from speaking with the FDA, since Dahua's selling intent is clearly to detect fevers for coronavirus, buyers should beware the need for FDA clearance. IPVM has formally notified the FDA about Dahua's marketing of this solution.
On the setup side:
Set up - Camera needs to be ~3m away, black body device needs to be same distance. Black body needs to be in FoV; camera ~6’ high
While the presenter said 9 foot width, the slide showed a maximum width of under 5 feet, which would even theoretically mean a max of 2 people side by side:
Other Notes:
Says can detect even if people are wearing face accessories
We at the rest of the world are tired and bored by the USA vs China commercial war and its implicancies in what are supposed to be unbiased product/solution reviews. If Dahua was, for instance, Australian, I bet that IPVM wouldn´t be as picky with a marketing picture as you have been.
For the record, we have tested the Dahua solution, as other members of IPVM have, and it works really great. Not only in controlled environments, but also in airport, metro station and recently a public hospital.
Yes it only works indoors, yes it requires blackbody on screen all the time. Also and more importantly, YES it detects people with high temperature that would otherwise enter the area being probably infected.
IPVM is a great resource. I hope it remains more professional and less political.
If Dahua was, for instance, Australian, I bet that IPVM wouldn´t be as picky with a marketing picture as you have been.
No, we did the same to a USA company 2 weeks ago to which the company publicly threatened to sue us - Faked Coronavirus Fever Detection, Athena. Did you read that one?
Pablo, I appreciate your feedback on the Dahua deployments. How often are these systems detecting people with verified fevers or infected with coronavirus? I think that would help Dahua and every manufacturer's case in this area to prove the value of what they are selling.
Yes, I read the Athena article. That was a little bit too much from the company side, so I totally support you. My point is other, and I´m glad it´s clear.
We do not have real statistics of people with high temperature detected versus people really infected. End users, as you know, are quite reluctant (or just not allowed) to release this info.
Nevertheless, the system´s goal is to act as a first line of defense by pointing out people with an abnormal high temperature -which is one of the COVID19 symptoms- and at a safe distance for the security / medical / operations personnel. In that way, the Dahua solution works very well as far as we have been able to see.
Yes, the marketing image is fake. Many others images -in my experience, all others except this one- are real camera captures with real temp measurements.
and Yes, checking someone´s temperature fast, accurately and at a safe distance can help protect from spreading viruses. It won´t stop the pandemy, of course! :)
Pablo, I am sure you know the laws in Argentia much better than I.
But, trust me, using fake marketing images and making medical claims (like 'protect from spreading viruses') most certainly violates US regulations.
Even Dahua USA, to its credit, does not make such explicit medical claims (like 'protect from spreading viruses'). Dahua still has risk from the FDA, as we explained here, but marketing that you 'help to protect from spreading viruses' is begging the FDA to take action.
Corbin, it that´s what you think after objectively reading all my previous posts, then I have to conclude that you are trying to pick up a fight, and I´m not interested. Sorry about that.
Not trying to pick a fight. Must have missed some of your other posts in this thread. I was responding from an email I saw of your post asking John to "not be that picky" about manufacturers advertising things they can't deliver.
Sorry if I came across wrong. I am truly wondering if in other countries it's not as important.
Ok, not a problem! In Argentina and other countries, if you include some "fine print" at the bottom of the picture saying that is only referencial, or that the human image has been altered, then you are OK.
Maybe in US is the same, and if that´s the case, these guys should have done that.
Why is that? As stated before, we have tested it and the results are good and reliable. It takes a few minutes to configure and adjust, of course, but the readings are accurate.
Pablo, is this with people stopping or walking? Hats on? Near an entrance or inside a building enough to give time for people’s skin temperature to adjust?
People walking in (airport, hospital), some meters inside the building -20 secs are recommended to adjust skin temp- and I don´t know if they ask to take hats or cups off. Weather is still warm down here.
I have some pics. Some during install/calibration, other were you can see the blackbody, and an actual capture of the optical lens with the instant temp measurement on screen. John, how do I share them? Couldn´t upload them (4 in total).
When measured temp is higher than the threshold (37C) an alert is triggered. Some local signal (visual/audio) and also an IVS type event.
Hope it´s useful. We are happy to help -to the extent of our very limited resources!- stopping the spreading, with this technology from Dahua and -in our case- also other solutions for access control, etc.
I couldn´t tell the legal aspects of it, but if in the real world a person with a fever is stopped and properly helped *before* entering a crowded building... well, that could help, right?
Hi i am not sure about the rest of you , but we have implemented the system quite well in a semi outdoor environment (sheltered) in this case and the performance is rather good and accurate , i have attached below the video for all to see and understand how it works .. Together we have also installed a AI NVR capable to detecting other anomalies like face mask etc
Ivan, thanks for your first comment and for sharing! Very interesting!
Can you clarify about the abnormal temperature count?
I can't make out the number. Out of the 5,489 measurements how many were abnormal? Abnormal means high in this case or? Were those checked by hand then?
Just to point out, most of subway station in China are indoor and enclosed area. looks very much like the banner shows.
Agree: 2
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Comments (79)
Undisclosed Distributor #1
I honestly don't know why companies do this, the Dahua system is actually very good if its set up correctly and used in the way its designed to be.
Why fake a picture like this..... makes me mad
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Jeffrey Hinckley
Why do you think that is not possible. I have been using my 2006 FLIR camera for many years, being able to after the fact analyze any temperatures of items in the FOV of the sensor. I assume that technology is better today with less of a margin of error on good tech. Though we moved away from China products awhile ago, I would probably have an open mind today that maybe, since they are 3 months ahead of us with the virus, maybe they have devoted resources to create a more accurate detection system.
Now i know you do not measure outside like these guys getting of the train. It can be more effective in common hallways inside businesses and establishments. with chokepoints. We can only speculate unless we have spent quite a bit of time testing in these applications, which maybe the Chinese have done out of need.
The technology and application is valid. The train picture is not. The writer decrying the technology claim may be biased based on the manufacturer name, I would guess.
Stay safe everyone.
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Undisclosed Integrator #2
ADI is pushing this product in their Canadian flyer this week.
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Undisclosed Distributor #3
Grundig in Europe is posting similar camera on various VMS's claiming they can accurately measure temps.
Thermal Bullet model no. GD-TI-BT2510T, Which is a HikVisionS-2TD2636B-15/P, DS-2TD2637B-10/P). They are not denying it's an OEM'ed.
Would you kindly verify if this camera would be able to accurately detect temperatures. And they are proposing to using it on door entrance for people entering hospitals. One by one entry kind of thing.
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Undisclosed Manufacturer #4
Is this April Fools?
or is IPVM now on the new-stands / grocery check outs along side the National Enquirer and other tabloids? (Faked, Banned, misleading headlines.)
IPVM does some great reviews and investigative reporting but the headlines all too often are trash. Some of the reporting too...
I would encourage IPVM to become more fact based, real testing and education.
Buy this, test it, have a video of of being tested in various scenarios, show the good and the bad. Please bring value not trash!
To your human right comment: I heard that the same people / group have a subscription to your service and now IPVM should be banned. No one has control over who buys products and how they are used. I do not condone human rights violations but are these the companies you accuse of doing this or a government. If the government then you should ban your laptop, monitor, iphone too.... (And yes Hik is owned partially by them - this was great investigative reporting. But let's keep the facts straight)
Can we get back to reality
thanks for the good work, look forward to it getting even better.
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Michael Miller
Any plans to order the Dahua kit and test it?
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Undisclosed Integrator #5
Reality: China is nothing but a big, fat, sneaky, evil liar.
If the shoe fits, wear it.
End of story.
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Undisclosed Integrator #7
Sad to see IPVM have such a biased opinion that instead of taking a objective look at the Product / Solution to determine if the product works and where it’s best suited for us integrators who may have clients interested in this potential off network solution. The thing is, does it have a potential opportunity to help people, yes I do think it does. Aside from all the bad stuff about the company, does that mean that we as integrators, tasked to find workable solutions for this unprecedented event in life, just pretend this doesn’t exist because it’s from China John? So with that mindset, I have to ask, do you suggest we say hell no to all those ventilators that are being purchased by FEMA from China, because Chinese company’s make them? If that it IPVM’s official position, then I believe it really calls into question what IPVM’s real goal is! Are you a source of Unbiased, Objective research and industry information? Or is your absolute hatred for Chinese Manufacturers, all equipment and technology, and so forth. Does your biases command and therefore set the tone for all information you all as an organization publish for us to view and for us paying members to consume and trust. Because in this case, IPVM posted what I feel was a “Click Baited” graphic stamped faked! Where I do agree that the Image was not a true setting, I have been researching this system for two weeks now, following all of IPVM’s articles, basically waiting to see what your opinions would be here. Now the Click Bait image that you guys liked so much that you used their art work as your own, but edited with a blasting “FAKED” stamp, you failed to deliver any use or substance regarding the products pro’s, con’s, capabilities, review of any kind in fact. Rather you guys decided to write an article on the bases of their Marketing Image, that honesty I wouldn’t have paid enough attention that it was a train or subway car nor if it had a black body. In fact, if your bases for slamming this marketing was the image of the train, why did you not mention that cameras don’t float in the Air without mounting. If we setting the standards of calling something fake in a marketing image, I think we call them out on those Fake Cameras that Float too. I mean when you get down to the nuts and bolts of this, that is what you are slamming them for. It’s honestly a bit disconcerting to see IPVM who until know, I saw as a fairly unbiased publication or online source of information. But you kind of went to far and are out to get the company, like your the TV Show “To Catch A Predator”. I don’t pay annual membership fees to read the “Gotcha” articles, I purchase it to read informative, unbiased information. Unfortunately, you missed your mark and your purpose here, which is disappointing.
BTW, don’t work for a Manufacturer, don’t work for a distributor, rep firm, nor any other bias’d organization. I don’t buy Dahua not Hik-Vision products because of their culture, crimes against people, and I believe we should bring back ALL manufacturing to the US. However, if Dahua has a product that no one else has or can provide, it works per the data-sheet, I don’t sell or recommend to my clients based on a website image or marketing flyer, and hope the other integrators don’t sell or recommend technology before doing their own vetting. But in times like these, if it helps people, even a little, even if it’s not perfect, should we not all take the best ideas available and attempt to help our clients. I think times like these, we should do and provide what our clients need or can help, while fully disclosing that it’s new, it’s not exact, it’s got no approval by the FDA, but it’s a close solution that I would operate offline because of security risk and the NDAA, that it can’t be purchased with Government Funds, and is not NDAA compliant. But if it helps get your employees back to work because your clients making an effort to screen and then secondary screen for temperatures as per OSHA and the CDC’s recommendation of having employees check temperatures prior to coming to work in essential businesses, then yes, absolutely we should let our customers know all the information we can find, and probably should mention that according to IPVM they used a thermal image of a train/subway car as a marketing image and if they were interested in buy because they needed to have a floating thermal camera that read temps of exiting passengers from a train, that IPVM said they faked that image but could not provide any other information saying if it did or did not work. Just that their marketing image was fake.
anyways, enough said and hope everyone is staying safe and healthy out there. Lastly, here is a video on Dahua site of a video of what appears to be the system in action in mid March, looks real enough to me, but it’s not a train just fyi!!
https://us.dahuasecurity.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/Video-4.mp4
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Richard Hemzal
Hi John, we have applied this system already in Czech and can confirm it works!
Is not perfect, has various anoying issues but when talking about measurement precision it can do what is promissing, which mean +/- 0.3 deg. C people measurement. Well, it does not measure temperature from side but definitely is VERY usefull for current situation when people in healthcare system is in danger of their lifes and is critical to stop fever on their doors.
So I guess to talk about "fake marketing" is this time your overshot.
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Undisclosed Integrator #9
This article sure seems written by someone with a strong dislike for Dahua. Misleading statements like "banned by the US government" when the full statement is much different than that, was just a beginner line to trash them. I can't seem to find anything on this flyer that says this image is actual footage from the detection system. It is misleading, but, so is the article. Pot, meet kettle.
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Guilherme Barandas
Here in Brazil Intelbras is selling a thermal camera to measure body temperature, with a coupled product called MTc 9000. Dahua acquired a% of Intelbras. IPVM knows something about this MTc 9000 (specifications below).
Intelbras - As câmeras térmicas são uma excelente escolha... | Facebook
Câmera IP Térmica Híbrida com Medidor de Temperatura VIP 7200 TH MT | Intelbras
300 x 400 Hybrid Thermal ePoE Network Bullet Camera – Dahua Technology USA Inc
Here is the description of each of the equipment in the solution: 1.1.1 IP thermal video camera - VIP 7400 TH MT cid: image015.jpg@01D5FEBD.1436FE00 The VIP 7400 TH MT is a thermal camera that has advanced video intelligence functions. It has the ability to measure the temperature of moving bodies quickly and with good accuracy, making it easier to identify the temperature of people, vehicles or materials on production conveyors. It can autonomously generate intelligent alerts and automate alarms and alerts by temperature or fire. It has a 400 x 300 high resolution thermal sensor on board, which has a temperature accuracy of ± 1 ° C. 1.1.2 Body temperature meter - MTC 9000 The MTC 9000 is a precision equipment for temperature measurement. Its advanced technology allows to control the temperature of a target surface, creating an important reference for the thermal camera. This equipment helps the camera to make the measurement more accurate (± 0.3 ° C), making the measurement efficient to identify people's temperature (which, very often, a very small variation already determines someone feverish and, consequently, suspected of being sick). 1.1.3 16-Channel IP Recorder with Artificial Intelligence - SVR 7116 IA The SVR 7116 IA is a high-capacity intelligent recorder with built-in facial recognition and the ability to communicate with thermal cameras. This equipment is compatible with the video intelligence of the LPR cameras, people counting, heat map, among others, facilitating the monitoring and delivering more information about the environment. In addition, it is capable of performing facial recognition on up to 4 channels using standard cameras. The recorder also has a forensic search function, which identifies the person's characteristics such as gender, age, facial expression, type and color of clothing, among others. It also has artificial intelligence, which detects people and vehicles that cross a line.Create New Topic
Undisclosed Manufacturer #11
I think this whole body temperature detection is the biggest hype coming from the COVID19 crisis and there are plenty takers for panic money. Everyone is now a body temperature specialist and some nearly claim to be medics yet many people can have Corona and barely show any rise in body temperature. Corona can also be present in someone up to 4 days, when they can spread the virus, without any fever being present. It will create a false sense of security all round and big companies are wasting many ten's of thousands on kit which really offers no more than a best guess. All that wasted money should be spend on proper medical testing and not on some random temperature screening. Educating is what it's all about and people with symptoms, often a dry cough and body aches etc long before a fever, should stay at home and self isolate. But that's only my humble opinion.
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Ondrej Sokol
I really don't know why marketing departments are using fake photos because they can use real one. Also I really don’t know why IPVM wrote article like that without testing.
Our company sold more than 50 sets in different sites and I can confirm that accuracy of the Dahua system's perfect.
We always test products first and when it’s working we can sell it. The same with this solution and I ordered one piece. When I saw how perfect it’s working we ordered another one. Also I can confirmed that I tested several different models even Dahua models and it didn’t work. Blackbody is needed part of human body solution.
Of course only indoor and of course person has be inside for several seconds. When temperature outside is -10C and we tried to measure immediately when person entered to building results were wrong. Of course in that time also digital laser thermometer shows wrong numbers.
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Ermal Sallaku
04/02/20 04:54pm
From my point of view, the truth is that this technology is not yet stable. As long as you have to stay for more than 20 seconds ( some times you need minutes) in the building for your skin to be adapted to the ambient temperature, as long as you dont have to turn your head sideways, and as long as you cheat in marketing as if this technology works outside.
Every investment + 10K is an adventure for businesses and does not solve even a single problem. Personally i better prefer an access control from Longse which i can sell it $ 2K on end user which do face recognition and measures the temperature in real time.
Its static , very reliable, good looking, AI function, AIO device, solve more then one problem, minimum 6x cheaper and at the end i am not cheating my self and my customer for the saving life technology's like Da-Hik do 😉
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Kyle Folger
After reading this article and all the comments, I believe that the Athena article was more valid. I question the accuracy of that system along with the fact that they haven't had this solution for that long. Timing is everything. I don't care for the lack of information provided by Athena and denying the Hikvision camera usage, even though it was the only camera featured on most of the material.
With Dahua, the video that Roman Roxer posted is much more believable in showing to me that the system is functional. Having the Blackbody shown in the material and in demonstration makes a lot more sense. While I don't agree with the marketing image in this case, having the photo of the camera clearly labeled on top of the photo leads me to believe that this is a marketing photo and not something taken from an actual scenario. The RedSpeed, aside from the leading image, was fairly informative and looks like images from the Dahua video were utilized.
I think the first paragraph isn't really necessary as a lead for the article. It could have been added to the end. Yes, Dahua and the US government don't go together, but that is tertiary to if the system actually works and can be verified to be working. The system working and being accurate is primary. The secondary issue is marketing. For Athena, they didn't respond with any meaningful data and I still don't believe it's accurate and if it works. For me, their response to poor marketing led to distrust of the solution, even if it does work.
Of course all these systems claim to detect elevated temperatures. This can be somewhat helpful, but I wouldn't extend that to mean saving lives. It's one tool that can help in identifying elevated temperature. It can't detect COVID-19 as Athena keeps claiming. A testing kit can do that, not a camera system.
I am curious to see how the Seek system performs. I can understand not wanting to spend the large amount of money on a system that will most likely go out of use in a few months to a year. I'm not sure what other use these systems could have in the future.
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Undisclosed Integrator #7
Just out of curiosity, when did this become the site where we published pricing from distributors and cost of items. I’m all for transparency, being there are a tremendous amount of end users on this platform, as well.
If this is what we are resorting to, I have about 5,000 item list of all the mainstream product pricing, including the various partner level pricing...
Should we list all the pricing, for all products, and so forth on IPVM also. I assume that would be fine with everyone sharing dealer cost of this item, for us to also share pricing for everything else.
Would that be a fair assumption to make based on the free flow of dealer cost in this case?
Curiosity is all?
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thomas worthington
04/02/20 06:21pm
What is the best solution then for offering to building owners and security?
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Rob Kilpatrick
I sat in on the ADI Temperature Monitoring Solution Webinar which included Dahua's fever screening solution and here are some notes/highlights:
Emphasized that not a medical device and not intended to diagnose:
However, from speaking with the FDA, since Dahua's selling intent is clearly to detect fevers for coronavirus, buyers should beware the need for FDA clearance. IPVM has formally notified the FDA about Dahua's marketing of this solution.
On the setup side:
Other Notes:
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Pablo Bertucelli
We at the rest of the world are tired and bored by the USA vs China commercial war and its implicancies in what are supposed to be unbiased product/solution reviews. If Dahua was, for instance, Australian, I bet that IPVM wouldn´t be as picky with a marketing picture as you have been.
For the record, we have tested the Dahua solution, as other members of IPVM have, and it works really great. Not only in controlled environments, but also in airport, metro station and recently a public hospital.
Yes it only works indoors, yes it requires blackbody on screen all the time. Also and more importantly, YES it detects people with high temperature that would otherwise enter the area being probably infected.
IPVM is a great resource. I hope it remains more professional and less political.
Regards and thanks for all the great work.
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Undisclosed #13
And now PlatinumCCTV is pretending like this is their camera:
A.I. Powered Body Temperature Sensing Fever Camera
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Igor Keel
ENS has been successful in pushing some so far, ENS Security on Instagram: “Here are some pictures of the successful implementation of Dual Spectrum Camera System solution for Pecan Deluxe candy manufacturer in…” (Texas),
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Michael Miller
Even works with a Helmet on!!
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TC SS
Just to point out, most of subway station in China are indoor and enclosed area. looks very much like the banner shows.
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