Dahua ADI Partnership Accelerates Race To The Bottom

By Brian Karas, Published on Apr 20, 2016

After years of fearing to compete with their OEMs like FLIR and Honeywell, Dahua has opened up their direct branded sales.

Dahua has partnered with ADI [link no longer available], adding their products to ADI's offerings, along with FLIR, Honeywell, Hikvision, W-Box, etc.

In this note, we examine this move, including how it will impact the market and incumbent competitors.

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Impact ** ***** **** **** *** *********

**** *** ********* **** OEM ***** ******* *** sell ***** ***** *** brands. **** *** **** distributed ** ***.

***'* **** ******* * ***** brands*** *********, **** (***** OEM), *-*** (********* ***) and ********* (***** ***), accounting *** ***** **** of *** ***** ******** stocked. *****-******* ******* ** a ****** ********** ** all ** ***** ******, but **** **** ****** brand *********** *** ** price *********, ******* ********* wondering *** **** ****** choose ***** **** ***** alternatives.

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** ******* ** ** seen ** *****-***** ******* will ** ******** ** Dahua *** ***'* ** sales, ** ** ** will ****** **** ***** **** FLIR *** *********.

Accelerating *** **** ** *** ******

*** ** * *** volume ***********, ***** *** carrying * ******* ** common ******** *** ********* more ** ***** **** on ******* **************. ***** is ****** ********* *** lower to *** ***** ** *** market **** ******** ***** at ****-********* ******. ***** two ******* ******** ******** to **** *** ********* "fair *****" *** ***** components **** **** *** 1/2/3MP ******* ******* ********.

Finally ** *****?

**** ** * **** in *** ***** ********* for *****'* ******* ***** hopes, *** ** ***** late *** *** ****** relationships **** ***** ******* OEM ******** **** *** Honeywell.

********* ** *** ***** of **** ** *** US, *** ***** ******** competitors **** ****, ******* and **** ****** *** also ********** ** **** in their ** ******** *** challenge ***** *** ***********.

******* **** *** ***** they *** *** * major *********** ** **** them, *** ***** **** likely **** ** *** other ************ **** ******* / ***-** ** ***** out ***** ** ****** and **** * ***** competitive ***** *********** *** their ********.

****

Comments (78)

Scot MacTaggart

04/20/16 02:19pm

If you're Dahua, you have to make this move, right? ADI can cure a lot of what ails them in the US.

It's also a necessary move for ADI. They need to keep competitive pressure on Hikvision, but there's no reason to reinvent the wheel. They're just using Hik's homeland rival - Dahua - to keep Hikvision from getting too much leverage in case the other competition dies off.

I'm sure the folks at Uniview will get a call once Hik and Dahua reach some kind of balance.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Scot MacTaggart | 04/20/16 11:42pm

I'm surprised with the pricing Hik is apparently giving ADI that Hik didn't get an exclusive on branded product.

Though maybe Hikua's "parent" company is all for it.

Undisclosed Integrator #1

04/20/16 04:35pm

it will be short lived...dahua burns more bridges than they create. used their cameras on 1 job and was not impressed.

Undisclosed Integrator #3

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #1 | 04/21/16 01:57am

I agree. I was disappointed with their CVI product, especially once I compared them to Hiks TVI products.

Massimo Lea

04/20/16 11:26pm

This is just another example of a manufacturer prostituting their brand in the market instead of partnering with one or 2 key distributors. Its the shotgun strategy. I don't see any real difference between Dahua and Hikvision in quality and or features so ADI having 5 variants of the same thing only spreads the $$ not increase sales.

Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security
04/21/16 02:18pm

I assume they will have to charge a premium for the Dahua branded products as Dahua will have to have a USA based tech support team (ewww scary). If they have no USA based tech support, this whole idea will be over before its started. If they charge the same amount or less for Dahua products than Flir, there goes all of Dahua's OEM customers.

Only way this will work out for everyone involved is if Dahua charges premium prices for their branded.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Sean Nelson | 04/21/16 09:53pm

If they charge the same amount or less for Dahua products than Flir, there goes all of Dahua's OEM customers.

Dahua has no brand. FLIR is FLIR. Honeywell is Honeywell. I think most buyers are going to need quite a significant discount or added features / models to give up the comfort in a known brand name.

Hikvision has certainly been able to do that over their OEMs but that is with huge investment that Dahua has not come close to making.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 04/21/16 10:36pm

Dahua has no brand. FLIR is FLIR. Honeywell is Honeywell. I think most buyers are going to need quite a significant discount or added features / models to give up the comfort in a known brand name.

One thing I don't get, are rank and file integrators really that clueless when it comes to who the real manufacturers are of these products?

Yes, I know my neighbor would pick Q-See over Dahua every day of the week, but he's not in the business of selling cameras either.

Would ADI really lie to an integrator if they asked "Who makes W-box for you?" (Secret shopper oppurtunity right there...)

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/21/16 10:45pm

are rank and file integrators really that clueless when it comes to who the real manufacturers are of these products?

Clueless or not, it is easier to sell FLIR or Honeywell vs Dahua, since end users have far more trust in the former than the later.

Also, FLIR and Honeywell have dedicated, proven support and sales organizations. Hikvision has proven to do that as well, but Dahua has not.

Would ADI really lie to an integrator if they asked "Who makes W-box for you?" (Secret shopper oppurtunity right there...)

It probably depends who you ask. I suspect that ADI does not emphasize that point internally and that the average branch person does not know (unless they read IPVM I suppose).

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 05:58am

Clueless or not, it is easier to sell FLIR or Honeywell vs Dahua, since end users have far more trust in the former than the later.

That may well be, but what you said was:

Dahua has no brand.

Which may be true as far as end-users are concerned but not the case with integrators, where they very much have a "brand".

And Hik is not a household word (yet) in the U.S., do you think they are not selling much branded Hik because of similar Honeywell models?

Take a integrator like J.D., IMHO, he's going to buy what he thinks the best value is for his client, he's not going to make any decisions just on name recognition alone (guessing). He's ready to tell the customer that FLIR is made by Dahua and explain the reason he is going to choose one over the other, whatever that may be.

So, for the informed integrator, who views themselves as the expert on the matter, and who have clients who trust them, Dahua is very much a brand, in spite of how badly Dahua has managed their message.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/22/16 11:41am

Which may be true as far as end-users are concerned but not the case with integrators, where they very much have a "brand".

Their name recognition, much less their brand, is still very limited with Western integrators. If you read IPVM, you know of Dahua, but if you are the average ADI installer, you likely have never even heard Dahua's name.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 03:04pm

...but if you are the average ADI installer, you likely have never even heard Dahua's name.

Ok, that's what I was asking before. So you do think that most of the FLIR sold at ADI is sold to people unaware it's really Dahua?

That absolutely could be, I guess I gave them too much credit.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/22/16 03:11pm

You need to go to an ADI Expo and just soak it in. I am sure there are some super sophisticated dealers who stop by because it is local, but the average dealer who goes there knows very little about behind the scenes business issues. A lot of them struggle with even basic technical points.

That noted, even for those who know, it is still easier to tell a customer you are using FLIR or Honeywell vs Dahua.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 03:18pm

Ok. I believe you.

So, one would assume, since they're not blind, that these integrators are finally figuring out the truth, now that ADI is showing Dahua branded look alike product.

"Oh, FLIR must make Dahua..." ;)

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/22/16 03:21pm

Some might figure it out but I bet a lot of Interlogix dealers still are not aware of the Hikvision OEMing.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 03:24pm

I've never been to an ADI Expo. Would I be wasting a day driving to one? I looked over the agenda and it seems weak. Is there anyone who has attended and thought it was worth the time?

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/22/16 03:29pm

If It is close enough to where you live, it is worth going. They generally have a few dozen vendors (generally local /regional sales people) and you can get the basic sales pitch, see live demos, get some questions answered, etc.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 03:32pm

It is a little over an hours drive to Novi (Detroit burb) where they are having an expo on Tuesday.

Brian Karas

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/22/16 03:46pm

I've been to a few ADI Expo's. They're hit-or-miss. If your day is open, it's probably worth going at least once.

You'll pass right by McNasty's on your way up/down 275, which is a good place to stop for a burger at the end of the day.

Luis Carmona

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Brian Karas | 04/22/16 04:12pm

I'm a whore for free pens.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to Brian Karas | 04/22/16 04:16pm

It was the appeal of a visit to McNasty's that put me over the edge and registered for the ADI Expo. I better get one hell of a lanyard out of this, maybe a pen or two. A flashdrive will just push me into euphoria!

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to Brian Karas | 04/26/16 04:34pm

My GPS saved me from having to deal with I-75 construction by taking US-23 instead, so no McNasty's for me.

Also, this was a colossal waste of time, in case others are thinking of attending an ADI Expo.

The Luxul presentation about IP was so overly basic that it was painful. Their really excited to now be able to offer 48 port switches. And they love kits.

I am now sitting through the most painful Hikvision presentation on analytics. The presenter has never viewed his PowerPoint before. Whoever created it has never presented either.

On top of that, the questions being asked would be laughable if they weren't genuine.

"Does Hikvision have tornado detection?"

"Do you make wireless PTZ cameras? I have no way to run any wires to the pole (meaning no power either)"

"Can the camera still alert me if the camera loses power"

I will probably run for the hills soon. I can't take much more.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/26/16 04:48pm

Jon,

Go to the exhibits section and talk to the individual manufacturer reps. That is what I found informative. Some are going to be bad, but overall you will get better discussions there.

As for the questions asked, yes, you learned something. That is who your average ADI competitor is, and was what I was getting at above when I said:

the average dealer who goes there knows very little about behind the scenes business issues. A lot of them struggle with even basic technical points.

Always good to now who you are competing with, consider how to better integrate that into your pitches.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/26/16 06:26pm

It appeared that some of the booths were being covered by rep firms, not the actual companies themselves. Digital Watchdog had a booth, but no one attending it as I visited.

The Hik booth was pretty packed. I don't know exactly what I would have asked them anyways. I'm pretty well versed with their products.

Their "engineer" who presented was very green (to be nice). He had just been hired a few months ago and wasn't fully versed yet.

He also wasn't a very technical person. He said their preferred browser was "Foxfire". He said email was your only choice for analytics, no SMS (you can always email your phone's number an SMS message). He also was unaware that the IVMS-4500 app supported push notifications. Oh, and IVMS-5200 isn't ready for the US yet. They have to add a bunch of stuff for it to be able to run in the US. Evidently PCs in the US run completely different software than the rest of the world. Then I asked about direct integrations of the analytics with other VMSs, to which he said they partner with almost any VMS. When asked to clarify that their analytics integrate with all of them, he responded "well which ones do you want to use?". My reply was I just want to know which ones support the analytics, to which he answered that I could check the website for that info.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/26/16 06:56pm

Oh, and IVMS-5200 isn't ready for the US yet. They have to add a bunch of stuff for it to be able to run in the US. Evidently PCs in the US run completely different software than the rest of the world.

Do you know how much work it takes to localize 'backdoor' code for a region?

Undisclosed Integrator #6

In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/26/16 08:10pm

>if lang=Englush, then welcome many bit coin minor most exceedingly

#Elvis

Undisclosed Integrator #6

In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/26/16 08:18pm

"Then I asked about direct integrations of the analytics with other VMSs, to which he said they partner with almost any VMS. When asked to clarify that their analytics integrate with all of them, he responded "well which ones do you want to use?""

> 10 IF question, GOTO 20

> 20 QUERY answers.list

> 30 IF return = sale, ECHO return

> 40 IF return = no-sale, GOTO 20

> 50 Truth >> null

# Elvis

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/26/16 08:35pm

So, no Dahua magician, or booth even?

How many times did you hear the word Dahua, (any pronunciation)?

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/26/16 08:52pm

Dahua was not present. I did not hear their name spoken either.

Undisclosed Integrator #1

In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/26/16 08:20pm

Why isnt there an IPVM convention where manufacturers have to be invited and its a members only convention?

weed out the ones of no value.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/22/16 11:54am

And Hik is not a household word (yet) in the U.S., do you think they are not selling much branded Hik because of similar Honeywell models?

Companies can pull on 4 levers:

Brand - neither Hikvision nor Dahua have a well developed brand overseas (though clearly Hikvision is far ahead)
Price - Hikvision has proven over and over to be more aggressive than Dahua (including Dahua's most recent price increase)
Product - Both are solid products, no fundamental issue
Sales/Support - Hikvision's spending on sales has been massive and almost unprecedented. Dahua has been weak.

Looking across these, it makes sense Hikvision is doing very well - despite a still limited brand, they offer the most aggressive pricing of any brand available locally, solid products and very strong sales/support.

Contrast to Dahua - poor brand, attractive but as aggressive pricing and weak sales/support so far.

Dahua can certainly improve but they are going to have to do so, to have any chance at coming close to Hikvision's success.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 12:04pm

John, I would argue your price sentiment. Our experience is that we can buy Dahua for less than we can a similar Hikvision product. It's usually a small amount of difference, but still $10-$20 cheaper for the Dahua model.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/22/16 12:07pm

We looked at current ADI pricing of each for an apples to apples comparison. Your discount level, where you buy from, etc. can obviously impact what any individual pays.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 12:45pm

And to your points above, you would think Dahua would HAVE to lower their pricing, since they are behind Hik in so many other metrics.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/22/16 12:47pm

Agreed, though Hikvision has a lot more 'flexibility' from their superior government positioning than Dahua.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/21/16 11:08pm

I wouldn't say Dahua has NO brand. It may be only known amongst a small segment of the industry, but there is brand recognition there.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/21/16 11:14pm

Amongst 'a small segment of the industry', that's my point. Also, among those who know them, their reputation is generally not great.

It is simply no comparison to a company like Honeywell, who I am obviously not a 'fan' of either, but recognize the strength of their brand compared to Dahua.

Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 03:20pm

I disagree. I think anyone who buys from ADI should know who Dahua is. Heck, even slightly informed end users know who Dahua is now.

A few years ago, this wasnt true. But now, everyone knows who Dahua is. They are a big brand in video surveillance.

If an ADI customer doesnt know who Dahua is, I'd say they are an uninformed customer, and if Dahua comes in cheaper than Honeywell or Flir, I can bet you that customer will go for Dahua whether they know who it is or not.

I think for Dahua to succeed at this, they will have to open up way more of their product line, more than whats available through Flir or Honeywell, and ADI will need to stock those products which becomes even more difficult. And of course, Dahua will need to offer english speaking USA based tech support. I wont hold my breath.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Sean Nelson | 04/22/16 03:26pm

I think anyone who buys from ADI should know who Dahua is.

They should or they do?

Why would they know who Dahua is?

Has Dahua ever advertised at ADI (before this week)? No.

Has Dahua sales people ever went to dealer's office? Very unlikely.

Has Dahua done substantial North American marketing campaigns? No.

So why would ADI dealers know about Dahua?

I went to an ADI event last year and the level of uninformed questions on basic things and well known brands was startling.

Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 03:39pm

Good question, easy answer though. They dont have to advertise. They have every Chinese re-seller flooding the net for them on Amazon, Google, Alibaba, etc advertising for them. Dont forget about the spam campaigns as well. Since Dahua has no sales channel control, they are all over everywhere, with the Dahua name boldly advertised. Just do a basic surveillance based keyword on any of these mediums and your bound to find a Dahua product.

If your in this industry and you do a half hearted web search on anything related to this industry, your bound to run across Dahua somewhere.

At any rate, those people who are buying Flir/Honeywell, I doubt they are dumb, even if they dont know who Dahua is. They are buying Flir/Honeywell because they think its a smart decision to go with that brand name. But it wont take them long to wise up. I mean if you see 2 cameras side by side, one says Dahua, one says Honeywell, and lets just say they have the recorders GUI's up on a monitor and they look exactly the same, yet the Dahua is cheaper, it will only be a matter of time before they start to venture off into using the Dahua branded stuff. Only reason they would go back to Honeywell/Flir is because Dahua would have no Tech Support, which goes back to my point of this would be the only way this could work for Dahua.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Sean Nelson | 04/22/16 03:43pm

They have every Chinese re-seller flooding the net for them on Amazon, Google, Alibaba, etc advertising for them

And that is very good for the DIY / hobbyist market.

But most dealers do not buy security products from Amazon, Google or Alibaba. There is a reason why ADI is as big as it is. Stock / terms / etc.

And since ADI and Tri-Ed have done no marketing for or with Dahua and Dahua has done minimal NA marketing for themselves, the average dealer is not going to know.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
04/21/16 02:55pm

For the few integrators in the know, this may just be another distributor to find the exact model you are looking for. Often, I find, that not every distributor of Dahua (OEM or otherwise) stocks a wide variety of their products. I don't know if this is due to the distributor cherry picking the products, or if it is driven by Dahua.

For instance, Dahua recently released their 4MP Dome with motorized zoom (IPC-HDBW5421E-Z). This particular camera has a three bolt pattern to mount it to a pendant cap (PFA-101). Their previous model of this size had a four bolt pattern. So, instead of making a new cap with 3 holes, they adapted the four hole cap with seven holes.

That's all fine, until you realize they DIDN'T CHANGE THE PART NUMBER! So, the old four hole cap is PFA-101 and the new seven hole cap is still PFA-101. In the Dahua literature it has "2nd" next to the part number, signifying that there is a second revision of the PFA-101. But, the box doesn't show this.

Now, the tricky part is getting your distributor to stock the new PFA-101 when he hasn't yet sold out of the old PFA-101!!

My point here is that with ADI as a distributor too, I am going to be more likely to find the exact part I need. I have a project being held up by a $10 pendant cap!

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/23/16 03:30am

I am going to be more likely to find the exact part I need.

If this is true, yes.

Dahua will initiate its worldwide expansion in the North America region where ADI will market, distribute and license the complete Dahua North America catalog—including its popular 1.3-4MP IP cameras, 8 and 16 channel POE NVRS, 1080p HDCVI cameras and tri-brid HCVRs—making the full product line readily available at 103 ADI store locations in the US and Canada.

Undisclosed #4

04/22/16 01:29am

At the ADI show:

Undisclosed Integrator #1

04/22/16 03:28pm

From experience, dahua has proven to be a little on the high end of the price spectrum, and my distributor tried pushing them on me and i told him to keep on looking and found some whitelabel brand of them much cheaper.

The name had "dog" in it and i cant remember it right now.

I used a few no-brand dauha cameras on a job, mostly the motorized 3mp bullets and domes and found the hik equivilents to produce a much better image simply because I had to replace a few dahuas and went with LTS and KTC Omni and was able to compare side by side on the same nvr...they seemed sharper and more vivid.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | 04/22/16 04:18pm

Brian Rhodes

IPVMU Certified | 04/22/16 07:32pm

ADI sent a newsletter today stating the intent to 'fully stock' Dahua products in branches:

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Brian Rhodes | 04/22/16 08:53pm

Here is the link for Dahua products at ADI.

All the Dahua product images are broken in the ADI directory, so we know it's genuine Dahua....

As for the fully stocked, who is going to lose? Looking at our analysis of ADI this year's branch levels, who is going to lose? I'd bet FLIR, Interlogix or Geovision given Hik's willing to pay and the other big 2 being house brands.

Mark Kirkeby

In reply to John Honovich | 04/23/16 07:03pm

I looked on ADIglobal.com and the stock level are slim at best, (13 models in stock and 281 special order). I have no intent to buy Dahau, from ADI or other source, but find it interesting to follow the conversation on the whole "race to the bottom" and so forth. I am fairly well locked in the the brands that I am currently using, and at risk of tirade from the masses I will say that brand name is rarely a selling point. In the majority of sales from residential to enterprise level the solution being sold is my company, and my reputation. The trust is placed in me , and my ability to provide a solution that fits a balance of quality and cost. I currently re-label my VMS,DVR and cameras, there is no transparency of manufacture. Many years in the past I sold IC Realtime, and for a "premium" product I was very disappointed, I had no idea that they were a Dahau OEM, now it makes sense. In the past I have sold by name brand, but only on some specialized equipment and that was Bosch, that name does have some juice and and definitely has some name recognition- I actually heard " Hey they made my dishwasher". that was an epiphany moment that I had some better idea of where I was going to position myself with brand names. As an American integrator I do not want to be known for selling Chinese surveillance, hence my branding strategy,but the reality at some point all of use will use the chinese brands.

In closing- each integrator must decode what they are going to represent as manufacture name brands, whether the name brand is a selling feature or not,each company has to manage the install and warranty regardless of which product they choose to install.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 04/23/16 07:34pm

I had no idea that they were a Dahau OEM...

That would certainly seem to support John's position. Was it just because you didn't really care who made it, or because you didn't consider that someone else actually might make it?

Dahua has likely improved quite a bit since then; maybe it's a blessing in disguise for them that people were not aware of the first, lower quality wave of their product, and instead ascribed it to the relabeler.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/23/16 07:55pm

I've been using relabeled Dahua product since probably 2010-2011. Originally only used their DVRs. We sourced our analog SD cameras elsewhere at that time.

When we began doing IP cameras, we stayed with Dahua, due to familiarity with their software. We've never had issues with quality, but we have noticed that they have stepped up their game feature wise.

The only real issues we've had with Dahua products that wasn't minor is the ONVIF exploit that still remains. You don't have an option to disable admin/admin access via ONVIF. Even if you change the default password, you can still use admin/admin to access the camera via ONVIF. This is likely seen as a positive to Dahua. They do this so their own NVR can connect "Plug'N'Play".

Mark Kirkeby

In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/23/16 07:57pm

apparently I am just another " truck slammer" without the ability to make informed decisions and by definition to do sub standard quality work and run for the door.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 04/23/16 08:56pm

Mark, I seriously doubt that.

Regardless of whether one knows the street address of the factory in Shenzhen where the board was etched, your sense of workmanship, utility and quality are not diminished.

No offense was intended, and was asking only to understand to what depth the marketing propaganda had penetrated.

Apologies. :)

Mark Kirkeby

In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/23/16 10:00pm

U2, my jab about trunk slammer was not necessarily directed at you, but at all that toss that derogatory term around as an aphorism embodying a large portion of the integrator membership here. I know that this is severely off topic, but if you check the word "slammer" shows up in this thread 6 times, now 7 including 2 from me. I have used this term loosely in the past, mostly as a degrading and sarcastic statement about competitors, or others that appear to me to do a volume of work without the quality and ethics that I hope I always have on the table. Through out this site I see it used over and over and I wonder~~ ADI "slammer"(8) so am I now a substandard quality integrator if I use Ademco alarms, or buy through ADI, I do not know WTF it is supposed to mean,but at it's heart is a malevolent term that detracts from the quality of information that we are all here to share, regardless of background,capability etc, and no I am not a new age hipster pillow biter that needs a safe space because words hurt.

OK now that I have vented :)

At the beginning of the decline of the housing market, I found it harder to sell what I called at the time "Top Tier" surveillance equipment, and by this I mean I was selling alot of Dedicated Micros DVR's. I started testing and vetting other products that I could offer that would have the basic features (record,playback,archive) I tried Honeywell,Speco,IC Realtime to name a few. I liked speco but they were widely available outside of sales channels, Honeywell who I do not know the OEM at the time was pretty mediocre at best. I tried IC Realtime and had poorly misrepresented and under performing cameras, though their color low light camera was very cool, the PSS software has from when I first started using it sucked at best. I did not look to other name brands for anything other than, what can I buy that people can not just look up on the internet and find a price that is close to what I am paying wholesale, I wanted a protected line, I did not care who made it, but in the end high rate of failures of cameras and DVR's i parted ways, and based on that experience I will not be looking at Dahau for any solutions at all. The products that I sell i generally now purchase, test and vet in my office before I make a decision to add something to my offering, Like I had said before, I do not sell the name, I sell solutions, based on technology that I have personally tested and use myself.

to all that read this , I hope that I did not come off as spiteful, but a nerve was struck, and in my usual MO I lash out an with un-thought out verbal tirade. Apologies in advance

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 04/24/16 12:49am

Mark, I am certainly guilty of throwing around the term sl***** indiscriminately, and indeed I originated in this thread.

However, I only used it ironically, and as an argumentative accommodation, so that it was clear I wasn't referring to ADI customers that might be on IPVM.

In my initial statement you can see that I only used the non-rankling "rank and file"

One thing I don't get, are rank and file integrators really that clueless when it comes to who the real manufacturers are of these products?

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 04/24/16 08:09pm

Mark, good points!

I will say that brand name is rarely a selling point. In the majority of sales from residential to enterprise level the solution being sold is my company, and my reputation.

I agree with about this. That has been my personal philosophy.

I will say, on the other hand, there are a lot of dealers out there where brand makes a major difference. This came as a surprise to me at first but there's definitely a significant section of the dealer market that cares about that.

I looked on ADIglobal.com and the stock level are slim at best

In the ADI letter posted above, ADI mentions 'fully stocked' in branches over the next few weeks. As such, I am curious to see how those numbers change in a month.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | 04/22/16 10:03pm

So here's a thought: If indeed the typical ADI slammer did not know that some FLIR and Honeywell products were actually Dahua, now they are likely to put two and two together.

Therefore, whatever their feelings may have been about those FLIRwell products (products only, not necesarily support etc) will largely transfer to Dahua.

Of course, this may be good or bad, but it accelerates greatly the timeframe in which one can establish a brand, since in effect you are telling people, "You already love and use us, you just didn't know it!"

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/22/16 10:14pm

now they are likely to put two and two together.

Why? You are projecting. Please go to an ADI event and meet the average ADI trunkslammer. They are simply not interested in playing detective nor taking the time to analyze this. And none of them, ADI, Dahua, Honeywell nor FLIR are going to proactively tell dealers the common connection.

In terms of 'establishing a brand', none of what you hope will do anything for their customers. Trunkslammer typical customer:

"Oh wow, you are using FLIR, the same hi tech the military uses to kill terrorists."
"Oh wow, you are using Honeywell, the same hi tech buildings run on."
"Oh no, you are using Da-hua? What is that?"

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/22/16 10:31pm

When they realize they all use the same Config Tool, DMSS and PSS apps and use the same ports, they might have an epiphany.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 04/23/16 12:12am

Why? You are projecting.

I thought I was being reasonable actually. You said average ADI guy as of last week, didn't know that FLIR was Dahua, nor likely ever heard of Dahua.

I deferred and said OK to you because mainly of your strong conviction, and because I would concede that many ADI customers are not interested in doing research, they just want to sling and slam all day long. Which is understandable.

But I didn't think you meant that they wouldn't realize that camera A and B are really the same, even when they are holding one in hand A and one in hand B.

Surely this phenonemon in general must not be new to them. After all, since they themselves often relabel equipment, they might expect others do as well.

"Oh no, you are using Da-hua? Who are they?"

"They're the guys who actually make the cameras for FLIR, the same hi tech the military uses to kill terrorists. "

Let's do a poll, everyone ask just one integrator who is not on IPVM, who makes the cheap FLIR line, and then come back and proxy vote.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/23/16 12:27am

they wouldn't realize that camera A and B are really the same, even when they are holding one in hand A and one in hand B.

they all use the same Config Tool, DMSS and PSS apps and use the same ports, they might have an epiphany.

Both of these presume the dealer gets as far as using both products. That, in and of itself, is a big hurdle. What motivates existing FLIR and Honeywell dealers to even try Dahua? Dahua has to work hard to even get there and they have not shown the organization nor talent to do it so far.

"They're the guys who actually make the cameras for FLIR, the same hi tech the military uses to kill terrorists. "

That's a much harder sell than saying "this is FLIR, the company the military uses to kill terrorists" because FLIR is already known to the customer but Dahua is not so unless the dealer has lots of good will with the customer easier to say "this is FLIR", "this is Dahua" just like 10 years ago "this is GE Security" carried power.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to John Honovich | 04/23/16 12:34am

What motivates existing FLIR and Honeywell dealers to even try Dahua?

As you know, price is the most straightforward way to the customer. But who knows how the OEMs will react, or Hik, so it's a matter of how much blood are they willing to let?

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Undisclosed #2 | 04/23/16 12:40am

so it's a matter of how much blood are they willing to let?

For sure, if Dahua is willing to take sizeable losses up front (both on product pricing and sales / support costs), then they are going to have a shot but they need to do that. And they have not shown that to date.

Worse, now they need to do that against Hikvision having a 3+ year / 220+ local staff head start.

Let's see what Dahua does.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to John Honovich | 04/23/16 01:20am

You keep ignoring the fact that Dahua is generally cheaper in the market. I will give you an example:

Dahua IPC-HDBW5421E-Z vs Hikvision DS-2CD2742FWD-IZS

Both are 4MP WDR motorized zoom domes, very similar in almost any measurable way.

The Dahua is $225 and the Hik is $300. That's a $75 difference for essentially an identical product.

Dahua has been the price leader for a while. I just don't think you have good sources for Dahua pricing.

Michael Miller

04/23/16 12:33am

I think both U2 and John are right. In the first couple of months no one will notice. Once they start blasting out monthly "10% discounts" like Hikvision does people will start to notice.

Undisclosed Manufacturer #5

04/25/16 03:20pm

What will further the race to the bottom are the "components." When manufacturers are out of margins the next place they go to drop even further is substituting components from higher end to lower end. Written datasheets only show a "general" specification.

There are a lot of choices at the component level and there are "major differences." Ambarella vs. Hisilicon as just one example. Sony sensors being substituted for Aptina... The list goes on. Virtually each and very major component has A,B and C choices.

Smart IR vs standard IR. Lenses plastic vs. glass; optical accuracy dead center only or throughout the image, etc.

So when you get the spam mails with $10 or less cameras there is your bottom of the barrel.

When you start to see these promotions from Hikvision or Dahua - caveat emptor!

Vance Kozik

04/25/16 10:19pm

Regarding Dahua's lack of brand recognition, their logo is problematic:

It looks like alhua or @hua but certainly not Dahua. I'm sure there's a story or reason behind their logo, but readability should be the priority.

If you're trying to go beyond ODM/OEM relationships and brand yourself, start with a legible logo. I wonder how many people walked past their large booth at ISC West not knowing it was Dahua.

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Vance Kozik | 04/26/16 12:35am

I wonder how many people walked past their large booth at ISC West not knowing it was Dahua.

Dahua Rep: Is there anything else I can show you?
Integrator: Nah, I gotta go find the DaaWaa booth.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
04/26/16 12:51am

I remember coming to IPVM years ago and Dahua was a hot topic then. I don't know how anyone in this industry doesn't know of them to this day, unless they simply just deal with the product lines offered to them by the company or something.

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Jon Dillabaugh | 04/26/16 12:59am

Jon,

Most of the industry reads nothing regularly - not IPVM, not trade magazines, not CCTV Forum. And I am saying this as a person who has a vested interest in the situation being otherwise.

unless they simply just deal with the product lines offered to them by the company or something.

I think you are spot on with that observation. My experience is that most people in this industry just use what is in front of them. This is one reason manufacturers employ legions of salespeople to go from one integrator / installer's door to the next.

And even for people who do read (the minority) most are understandably busy and focus on articles / coverage of things they already use or know about. This happens all the time when I talk to even knowledgeable people who I know read IPVM daily. They will frequently miss or skip articles on less established companies and then later ask "Hey do you know anything about A, B, or C" who we covered not too long before they asked.

Mark Kirkeby

04/26/16 01:09am

So hey do you know anything about a company called Jovision , I get marketing material from them often, and I searched IPVM, very very cheap,actually so cheap that I did not even consider using them

here is an example IR Dome

JVS-N3DL-HC with 3.6mm, without POE $20

JVS-N3DL-HC with 3.6mm, with POE $25

all of the prices make you think you are shopping in a dollar store

John Honovich

IPVM | In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 04/26/16 01:14am

Mark, please start another discussion about Jovision, as it is fairly off topic.

I have gotten some spam emails from Jovision and see some records of them spamming LinkedIn as well, but I have never heard any details or anyone use them.

Net/net, I am not sure if they are good or not, but they are not a 'brand name' spammer like Longse.

Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC
In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 04/26/16 03:56am

Prices that cheap don't interest me. I know that the sub $50 market is complete junk and the sub $100 is barely passable. Once you get above the $100 threshold, you start to see more decent, reliable, if not feature reduced products. Fixed lenses are expected here, but reliability should be too.

Once you get north of $200, you can expect reliability and more features, like motorized zoom, True WDR, analytics, and better support.

There is a point where you start paying for something you don't really value. That has to be evaluated on an individual basis. For me, it's likely anything above $400 for most cases. Obviously, there will be a time and place for a special product, given a certain scenario. But those are fewer and farther between as the sub $400 crowd keeps getting better.

Undisclosed Manufacturer #7

In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 02/20/17 07:14am

Hi Mark, I know Jovision company. It's pretty old in China (about 17 years it seems). They're huge in China market, but struggling to expand across the border.

I've heard that their products are fairly satisfactory, but after sales service/customer service sucks. Moreover, you'll struggle having someone to communicate with you in English.

Cheers!

from Shenzhen

Mark Kirkeby

04/26/16 02:10am

It was more stating the point of who can know all of the random manufactures out there , and their OEM's , I applaud the effort of IPVM to educated integrators about the offerings, I could care less about Jovision or their pricing , and I do not look forward to an article here, the is better material to be covered. I seen the ABC analogy, and found myself needing to throw out a C. This topic has drifted on and off topic for days.

ya me again, so I get you point , and will knock it off......

John Honovich

IPVM | 05/21/16 01:16am

ADI is now widely stocking Dahua. From our checks, Dahua is on the second tier of stocking (i.e., not as big as Hikision, FLIR, W-Box, etc. but still notable).

Also, related:

Mark Kirkeby

06/07/16 03:09am

More cheap Dahua, or as the logo say adhua

in email today

Undisclosed #2

IPVMU Certified | In reply to Mark Kirkeby | 06/07/16 03:54am

Odd spec on that 4204, can only have 4 5MP cameras max, but incoming bandwidth is 256 Mbps.

So, a healthy 60 Mbps per camera.

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