Bosch G-Series Intrusion Tested

I would love to see ICT panels tested. The WX line is a very powerful browser based intrusion, access and integration solution.

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Marty Calhoun

In reply to Michael Miller

IPVMU Certified

I agree the ICT panels are very similar to the old Paradox series panels introduced in 2005 and then taken out of production for unknown reasons a couple years later, but I did like them.

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Brian Rhodes

In reply to Marty Calhoun

IPVMU Certified

Good feedback on ICT. Thanks.

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Brian Rhodes

IPVMU Certified

A member emailed this feedback to me:

"I would say [G-Series] strongest feature is comes from a family of panels that were 20 years ahead of their time in the 90s. It’s a very reliable panel for the bigger projects. We use the platform for heavy commercial, fire only panels, govt. and schools mainly...

I like the updated keypads but it Bosch forever to update the line which really hurt them. They are still the standard in big retail stores, govt, schools. It is a very secure platform is another big selling point. That makes it big for high security installs.

DMP has taken a bit of their market share in the USA is my sense."

The comment about DMP biting into Radionics/G-Series marketshare is interesting, especially in the light that Bosch is/was slow in updating portions of intrusion offerings.

Do others agree with this?

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Undisclosed Integrator #1

Do others agree with this?

Ask any current or previous Radionics sales guy.....yes. Bosch has been DMP's primary target. DMP created a module to take over the Radionics POPIT loops.

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John Bazyk

In reply to Undisclosed Integrator #1

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Don't forget the universal DMP mounting plate so you can mount an XR inside a DMP can and not have to remove the can or conduit from the wall!!! No only if DMP had snap in terminals. It's the biggest complaint I hear from our techs.

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John Bazyk

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Bosches unwilliness to listen to their dealers and move quickly hurt them. In the time they told me they would release a commercial panel with on-board network and integrated cellular I sold hundreds of DMP systems. Now that's what I primarily sell. We still do a lot of Bosch but they're just so slow to make a move. I can't sit around and wait for them to play catchup.

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Steve Beck

In reply to John Bazyk

John- I see on your website you still have the Radionics logo up. Cheers to that! I take it that decision was a tough but a necessary one to bring DMP on board. I remember coming into the industry in 2009 and seeing how far Bosch was behind. DMP had a specific marketing campaign going after Bosch/Radionics dealers back in 09. Is that when you guys switched? That is when Bosch neeed to release their new B and G series panels. Took them a bit too long. This is because was focusing so much attention during the 2000s to video side of things. We almost went DMP but I felt Honeywell had a better residential solution and Bosch was still the only thing on GSA. We were dong a crap ton of GSA installs and our Rust Belt area had more growth for residential so that's why we stuck with Bosch but picked up Honeywell. We are happy with Bosch but they have lost a lot of business.

How do you compare Bosch's cellular option (B440/Wyless) to DMP in terms of functionality and overall cost? Do your techs have a preference?

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John Bazyk

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

In reply to Steve Beck

We still have thousands of Radionics panels up and running. You wouldn't believe how many 9112B1 panels are still going. The thought of the day they all go bad is a recurring nightmare for me.

Our rep left Bosch (who was our rep for a long time and we trusted him) and went to DMP in 2010 so that's when and why we switched. Our company didnt do much with them until 2012 when DMP started to make significant advances over Bosch. I saw what they were doing to develop their cloud platform and knew they were about to explode. Since then I haven't sold 5 Bosch systems. The rest of the company has but not me.

DMP is on the GSA list now, and their XTLplus residential panel is a Honeywell killer IMO. We looked at several brands 2GIG, Honeywell, DCS everyone in 2012 and went with DMP for their powerful wireless offering, easy cellular, and network configuration, home automation, and touchscreen keypad (I think it had been announced but not released yet).

I was happy with Bosch/Radionics, it's what I grew up with. When I decided I wanted to be competitive, grow the business and have our company be more efficient DMP solved a lot of the pains I found with Bosch.

Bosch's cellular option is not great; I dislike Wyless, both the service and the price point are absurd. We pay almost three times as much at Wyless as we do at Securecom (DMP). The DMP cellular option is also a lot easier to activate, program and connect to remotely. Now that Bosch has cloud connect I won't hate their platform as much.

From a hardware perspective and how it's built, our techs prefer Bosch as it is built a little more ruggedly. Our people in the back office who do all of the programming remotely prefer DMP as it's easier to program both from the dealer portal and remote link. You can fully program the DMP system from their keypad so the techs like that if something doesn't work the way they want it they can quickly change something.

Sorry for this novel...at the end of the day, Bosch is a good brand and produces a good product. If they would just go out and hire a bunch of millennials to develop better software and apps, they would have a killer product line. They insist that the German way is better and refuse to listen to their dealers. Bosch has its place in our national accounts, and we probably won't change that out anytime soon. If I could wave a wand and have everyone switch do DMP overnight with no cost to our clients, I would.

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Undisclosed Integrator #2

Competitor systems like DMP XR Series and larger Honeywell Ademco Vista panels offer similar features, but Bosch G-Series generally offers more points, areas, outputs, supervised keypads, and operation process customization. Other factors like number of users/codes, schedules, logged event storage may lack compared to DMP or Vista, but are sufficient enough for large systems and are not likely practical issues.

The smallest DMP XR150 can do more zones and if you go up to the XR550 it also has 32 areas and 16 supervised keypads (i think that matches the Bosch). As someone who has done both I give the nod to DMP for their remote link software and greater number of zones. Bosch is nice only using a 2 wire data loop instead of the 4 wire on DMP. I rule out Honeywell because the Compass software is just bad.

Good write up!

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Brian Rhodes

IPVMU Certified

Thanks for the comment!

To clarify the above, there are two 'G-Series' models. We tested the smaller capacity one (B8512G), but the bigger capacity one (B9512G) is identical, save price and capacities.

If we look at DMP's XR550, it features:

574 points, 32 areas, and 16 keypads (which must be enough for the vast majority of intrusion systems, anywhere...)

If we compare Bosch's B9512G, it features:

599 points, 32 areas, and 32 keypads

Again, those extreme numbers are kind of silly to differentiate on, but I wanted to clarify our above statement.

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #3

•Jul 28, 2017

[Note: Poster is from Bosch]

Great write up even though they both support multiple partitions Bosch partition has both perimeter area and interior area for one partition. DMP is just an area

just to clarify and the Bosch camera can be triggered by the intrusion to send snapshots without cloud or VMS just not stream video

good info

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

I recently completed an integration of Bosch G-Series into an enterprise system. It's a solid unit, and my development was well-supported by Bosch tech support. That said, there are a few things I would change:

The blue heartbeat LEDs are much brighter than necessary. If the enclosure isn't closed, it will illuminate a room at night.
The RPS software is difficult to work with, could use some updating.
An SDK would be nice so device integrators wouldn't have to write to the raw protocol.

Overall though, it is a robust panel and a pleasure to work with.

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John Honovich

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

IPVM

wouldn't have to write to the raw protocol

#4, thanks! Can you expand on how their raw protocol works? How 'raw' is it?

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

In reply to John Honovich

I'm not at liberty to discuss specifics, though if you have worked with protocols before, it's straightforward, and very well supported. It was the most pleasant intrusion panel integration experience I have had, by far.

That said, as time goes by, I find fewer "kids these days" coming out of school who can handle low-level protocols well. A higher-level integration method, like what exist for video, would be great. I mean, if you want to write an app that brings up video, do you need to know VAPIX or ONVIF? No. You get an SDK that presents cameras as objects.

That's what I think would be nice to have here: A nice SDK that lets a junior developer just create panel "objects" and subscribe to events. It would cut down development time by an order of magnitude. I'd be happy to write it myself...maybe I'll think about this and approach them about it.

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Brian Rhodes

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #4

IPVMU Certified

I do agree that RPS is cumbersome to navigate. It can be used to do many things, but I can easily see users may get frustrated when trying to program basic systems.

There are several versions of RPS - full RPS, and 'RPS-lite' are the two most common, but 'RPS-UMM'. We tested full RPS because it offers the 'cloud' app and dealer support options where they other versions do not.

But just that software alone takes time to learn, even beyond the panel itself.

If Bosch could emulate a panel in an app, or give the panel itself a webserver for configuration, that would be a welcome simplifying step.

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Rueben Orr

The Germans make some good electronics (and cars and motorcycles), but I believe there is a better option for intrusion detection systems that is designed and manufactured in Springfield, Missouri. If you have to have more than 574 zones then I could see your dilemma, but if you could figure out how to get by on this limitation, then why not use a superior product and support American manufacturing while we still have the opportunity to do so. I for one am hoping DMP never sells out to the multinationals or offers a bottom feeder option by moving manufacturing to China or Mexico.

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Brian Rhodes

IPVMU Certified

This comment is way off base. Being enthusiastic abut DMP is fine, but being jingoistic and calling one brand 'superior' to the others without qualification is a disservice to both brands and pointlessly insulting.

We've tested both platforms, in depth. Both have strengths and weaknesses. Which mix of strengths is better for a given project is the issue to examine, not making blustery statements.

In the comments before yours, you have feedback from dealers who have sold both brands and who offer reasoned pros and cons on their decision.

See: DMP Intrusion Tested (XR Series) in comparison with this G-Series test for a technical evaluation.

Let's keep comments contrasting these offerings focused.

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Rueben Orr

•Aug 02, 2017

Jingoistic? Can you not see the irony in saying my comment is way off base and then saying that my comment was jingoistic?

If both Bosch and DMP were equal everywhere else then I would still say DMP is superior based upon my belief that supporting US companies is better for me and my descendants than supporting a multinational corporation or a foreign owned company. It is sad to me that people in the US would now see that OPINION as extreme or warlike.

That said, I have installed and serviced just about every intrusion detection panel sold in the US for the last 25 years. I know Bosch makes a great alarm panel as well as detection devices. The 9412G is a workhorse that I have seen in nearly every major retail chain at one point or another. Detection Systems (now also a Bosch acquisition) manufactures what I believe to be superior motion detectors. While I now expect everyone who works at Optex to tell me how wrong I am for having this opinion, I base my opinions on 25 years of real world experience. I support a niche in the security industry that requires repeated testing and documentation of the IDS we install. Each component is required to be listed for it's specific purpose and installed and tested according to manufacturer instructions. My OPINION are based upon my experience dealing with product availability, tech support, equipment failure rate (especially bad out of the box), equipment tolerance to abnormal electrical conditions (ever see a 9412G get it's primary power get shorted at the panel or take a static discharge from a technician who shuffles their feet), backwards compatibility of major components (keypads and zone expanders especially), the manufacturers representatives, and yes it makes a difference to me if they are made in the USA and are privately owned.

I did review your DMP product review and read again your "Competitive Comparison". I had no problem with you stating your opinion that "factors like number of users/codes, schedules, logged event storage may lack compared to DMP or Vista, but are sufficient enough for large systems and are not likely practical issues" because this was a product review, where you would expect comments to include opinions based upon experience and other prejudices. I apologize for not getting more specific on my own pros and cons, but saying that one panel is "easier to wire" than another, or that building a complete system is easier due to how parts are numbered, would also be simply opinion.

I prefer how DMP handles open zones while arming (OKAY, BYPASS, STOP) as it gives the end user more simple options. I have had great experience with tech support and not so much with Bosch (although I do not have very recent experience with Bosch IDS tech support). I made a suggestion to a DMP executive at one of their dealer round table events about a need for a product they didn't have that Honeywell did, and in less than a year I was contacted to see if I would be willing to provide Beta testing and feedback because they listened to the opinions of their dealers and built one (1115-W for those curious). I have been called by management of DMP as a way of checking on what they could do to improve. I prefer the DMP wireless products due to setup and diagnostics options and my experience providing a wireless solution where wiring was beyond impractical and other wireless products had already failed.

I can sell any IDS I want (as long as they are UL listed and have a current AES encryption listing) and choose to sell DMP. In my opinion, Bosch makes a very reliable and sophisticated panel that would be an acceptable IDS for protection of critical assets. If DMP wasn't an option, then my next choice would probably be Bosch.

Lighten up Brian. I didn't even get into my opinion about the difference between product testing and product reviews...

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John Bazyk

•Aug 02, 2017

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Ruben, I love the 1115, what a device. Will you be at the next roundtable this fall?

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Michael Miller

Have you looked at DMP cameras?

I for one am hoping DMP never sells out to the multinationals or offers a bottom feeder option by moving manufacturing to China or Mexico.

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Rueben Orr

In reply to Michael Miller

Yes, and what a shame. This is what lead to my concern that they would move more in that direction.

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John Bazyk

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Theres a reason DMP is developing their own camera line.

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Bartley Skold

FYI

Bosch still builds many products in the US.

Bosch has been doing business and manufacturing in the US for over 100 years.

Bosch Security Systems is an American Corporations subject to American Taxes.

Bosch is actually privately held and Run by a Charitable Trust.

Bosch give away millions around the Globe annually.

Bosch gave millions to Hurricane Katrina relief and continues to support charitable and education grants in the US.

Bosch employs over 40,000 Americans, and I am one of them. With that paycheck, I pay taxes.

I encourage you do a little research before bashing. No need for trade wars here.

:-)

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Rueben Orr

Which part of what I posted was bashing? Radionics built a very sophisticated series of intrusion panels and related hardware and Bosch acquired them and have invested heavily on increasing their already substantial market share globally through R&D and marketing. I'm glad you have a job working for Bosch and that you advocate for them. I hope my employees would do the same. I stated my belief that the DMP product is better based upon my experience and expertise. It is my opinion, and while I am happy to tell anyone why I feel that way, it is still just one man's opinion. By the way, I also think the USA is superior to every other country in the world, but that doesn't mean I am bashing the other countries.

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Jeremy Ellis

•Aug 03, 2017

This might be old issues with the DMP500 series, but does the reader bus and keypad bus still share resources? My cistomers always complained about the lag between good read, and door unlock. Sounds trivial, but it was brutal.

I think anyone that complains about the RPS interface/depth might have their points, but you will never hear any capable installer or end user complain due to the almost limitless capabilities once you learn it.

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John Bazyk

•Aug 14, 2017

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

In reply to Jeremy Ellis

The XR550 has the AX bus now for access control. From my experience, it's definitely faster than the keypad bus in larger systems. Systems with less than 8 doors and keypads can share resources and it's fine. The 500 series is older and has a much slower processor compared to the 550 series.

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Hassan Helmy

•Aug 14, 2017

Could you tell me the steps you followed to configure the mobile application?

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Brian Rhodes

•Aug 14, 2017

IPVMU Certified

In reply to Hassan Helmy

You need to have access to RPS. Do you have that dongle/key?

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Hassan Helmy

•Aug 15, 2017

Yes, I have B8512G control panel, USB dongle and RPS.

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Hassan Helmy

•Aug 16, 2017