Avigilon Sales Warning: Panoramics 'Useless for Investigation', 'Evidence Dismissed'

Author: John Honovich, Published on Jun 28, 2016

Are panoramics useless for investigation? Will evidence from those cameras be dismissed?

That is what an Avigilon sales person told one of our members. In this note, we examine the claims, share feedback from Avigilon corporate and review the risks of such sales tactics. 

*** ********** ******* *** *************? **** ******** **** ***** ******* be *********?

**** ** **** ** ******** ***** ****** **** *** ** our *******. ** **** ****, ** ******* *** ******, ***** feedback **** ******** ********* *** ****** *** ***** ** **** sales *******. 

[***************]

Claim ****

** ******** ***** ****** *** ***** ***** ***** * *****'* camera **** ********'* ***. *** ******** ***** ****** ********:

**** ************ ***** *** ****** **** **** ********, ********* *** other ******* ***** ** *****, ********** ** *** ***** ** going ** **, ** ***** ** **** *** *********** ** evidence ** *****. ******* *** ******** ****** ********* ********* ** 'altered *****', ***** ** *********** *** **** ** ******** ** elongated ***** *** *** **** *** ******** *********. **** ***** the ********** ****** ******* *** ************* ********.  **** ** *** Avigilon **** *** *********** * ******** ******.

*** ****** **** ***** ** ****** ********* *****. ******** / panoramics / ******** / ***. *** ******* ** ****** *****. Like********'* ***** *****-****** ********, **** *** ******, *** *** ******* ****.

***** ** ** ******** ** ***** ***** ********* ******* ** *** category or *****. ******, ***** ********* **** ***** ******** ****** ***** ********* *****, ** *** **** ***** **** ***** ** **** **********, this ***** **** ** ******** ** *** ***** ******, *** the ******** ** **.

** *** ** ***** '******* *** *************', **** ******* *** widely ****** *** ********* ** ******** ** * *****.

*****************

********'**** ** ** ******* ******* *** ************* *********:

******** **** *** ******* ** *** ************* ** *** ** stitched ***** ** *****. ** ***** ** *** ******* ******* of ***** ************, ***** ********* *** ****** ******* ********* *** industry-leading ******** *******. ***** ******* ******** ** *** ********’* ********* *** be ****, *** ******** ** *** ********** ** ******* ** behalf ** *** ******* ** ** ******* ** *** *****.

**** ********* ** * **** ** *** ***** *********. ************, the ******** ******** *** ** *** ******** **** ******* ***** help **** **** *** ****. **** ***** ******** ******** **** a **** *********** *******.

Sales ***

*************, ** **** ******** ***** ****** *****, *** ********** ** use ****, *********** *** ***** ** ***** *** ****** ******* high. ******* ** ****** ******** ** *** ******** ** ***** own camera *** ***** *********** **** ***** *** ***, **** ****** choose ** ****** **** ***** ***** *****'* ***** ******** *** *** customer's *** *** ******** *** ********** ******* *****.

Challenges ** ***** ***** ******* **** ********

***** ******** ********* ******* ***** **** *** ******** ***** ******* S, **** **** ** **** *********** *** ********** ** ***** third ***** ******* **** ********. *** ******** ***** **** ***** their *********** ******* ***** *** ******* ** *** ********** ** **** to ***** *** ******. *** **** ********'* ***** **** ********** culture, **** ** *** **** ** **** **** *** ************ been ********.

*********, ******** *** ******* ** **** ** **** **** **** from *** ******************.

Comments (22)

I have had 4 cases where panoramic video went to court they were all up held.

Panoramic video has its place just like any other camera whether its single imager or multi.

I thought Avigilion had panoramic cameras / multi imager cameras. If they are talking this way they must have crap offering for Panoramic/Multi imagers cameras.

Or they think they still need 3 cameras to do the job of one. that would certainly boost sales volume..............

I thought Avigilon had panoramic cameras / multi imager cameras. If they are talking this way they must have crap offering for Panoramic/Multi imagers cameras.

They have what they call 'multi-sensor' cameras but they do not stitch the video, it's just N number of video feeds out. Also, Avigilon sells no fisheye nor panomorph cameras.

They have what they call 'multi-sensor' cameras but they do not stitch the video, it's just N number of video feeds out. Also, Avigilon sells no fisheye nor panomorph cameras.

I guess that explains the sales pitch

Avigilon FishEye, coming soon... Stay tuned

This sales person is stupid, and Avigilon works and promote some stitching software.

I have had 4 cases where panoramic video went to court they were all up held.

As in actual trials where the evidence was shown to the jury?

Did the defense ever try to suppress the video for any reason in any of the cases?

Thanks in advance, it's rare to come across someone with as much experience as you.

  • MPEG-4 video is not admissible in court
  • Video without a visible watermark is not admissible in court
  • Motion-only video is not admissible in court
  • Panoramic "stitched" video is not admissible in court
  • Cameras must be UL Listed
  • Fire alarm cable "fire wire" must be red
  • If you have sprinklers, you don't need smoke detectors
  • If you have cameras, you must put up signs informing people
  • A dummy camera will make you liable if something bad happens

We should start a thread on all the security myths out there.

  • If you have cameras, you must put up signs informing people

This one depends on site.

Privacy act here in Australia dictates that businesses as a general rule must notify you that your image may be recorded. However, cameras operated by an individual have no obligations to do so.

Campbell, agreed, there's definitely variations across countries. I believe the UK and many European countries have stricter rules about signage / privacy violation. The US is very lightly regulated in this area.

If you have cameras, you must put up signs...

And if you have signs, you must put up cameras.

"Beware of the Dog"

... more like "Dog will love you to death"

Legality aside, even the worst video has forensic value: Grainy Video Catches Alleged University Of Texas Murderer

Defense Attorney: You have been shown three seperate clips of compelling video evidence; of the killer at the entrance, the murder itself and the hasty exit. Yet, by the prosecution's own admission there was just one camera, I ask how is this possible?

Shopkeeper: I confess, I confess, I split the fisheye into streams, I'm sorry, I didn't know...

Judge: Arrest that man for premeditated dewarping with intent to stretch and stitch; the defendant is free to go.

The Avigilon sales team makes their commissions selling their own cameras so the motivation is high to block out rivals. And with Avigilon's sales team gunslinger culture, this is the type of move that has historically been rewarded.

Hopefully, Avigilon can improve on this as they move away from the old Schmode approach.

Meaning move away from FUDslinging, but not MUDslinging per se (as long as it's substantiated)?

Related: Go After Your Competitors

If the points are factual, I do not think it is even mudslinging. Avigilon has real advantages, tight integration, auto firmware upgrades, the multi-sensor have integrated motorized varifocal lenses, etc.

I agree. Avigilon has better tools in their bag than FUD to make use of in a sales pitch. I still consider FUD a sign of a rookie or non-proficient sales person. I'm hoping these type of anecdotes are outliers or remnants from the Schmode era. I do not see these antics from the regional rep and sales engineer I work with. If I did I may not stop selling the product, but I would certainly not bring them in front of clients.

I would submit that even good sales people use FUD in their pitches - they just don't do it overtly like the weak sales person mentioned by the OP.

Implied FUD (i-FUD) if you will...

example:

If company A has a flaw or defect of some kind - or simply lacks features and/or integrations in their products - the sales person for company B doesn't have to mention company A at all.

Instead, if they focus on Feature 1 and Feature 2 that their own Company B products have - and why they are so very important to have - there is then no need to point out that you should be 'afraid' of using company A's products because they do not have them.

Example:

If I were a sales person for Cam Co Z and I know that the customer is deciding between my cameras and Arecont cameras - I would spend some time in my pitch talking about all the time and money my customers save by having a reset button on the outside of the camera.

If I am persuasive in telling the story of the need for a reset button (by conflating it with real value) then I've employed i-FUD... the customer believes a reset button is of real value.

Hopefully, I get to pitch the customer before the Arecont person does... ;)

Disclaimer: I only use Arecont (and their lack of a reset button) as an illustrative example in my comment above. I am not making any comment about the strength or weakness of their products, and none should be inferred. :)

I would submit even good sales people use FUD in their pitches...

Yes, FUD is fudamental.

And there is no shortage of effective, plausible FUD to be had even on IPVM. Consider all the Chinese FUD around here about scenarios, vulnerabilities, motives, world domination, etc.

Talk about a trade imbalance.

Unfortunately, as this Avigilon sales person shows, the temptation to use Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt to knock out rivals remains high.

Is FUD unethical even if it's not based on falsehood?

For instance, a Hik dealer tells a prospect interested in Analytics that they are better off with Hik than Hanwha, because Hik is licensed by Avigilon and Hanwha is not. And although, Avigilon hasn't sued anyone yet, you don't spend a 100 million to let people use your stuff for free.

Its a reasonable point made in different forms on IPVM. It's could also be considered FUD when used in sales.

Would you be wrong to use it, then?

Just came across a Hikvision case study of fisheye panoramics being used inside in a US Police Department crime lab. Avigilon sales people, you know what to do....

Good to see the Chinese government is watching our police crime labs. :(

Avigilon sales people, you know what to do....

Oh come on now, do you really think they're gonna take that and spin it into some murky anti-Hik FUD? Right after you accused them of doing the same?

Really.

Not as useless as the Avigilon sales manager claimed 2 months ago, since Avigilon is now releasing their own fisheye / dewarped camera:

The new Avigilon™ H4 Fisheye camera line offers a complete, high-resolution, 360-degree panoramic view with no blind spots. Available in 6 and 12 megapixel (MP) camera resolutions, this cost-effective, easy-to-install solution is designed to provide broad coverage with fewer cameras.

The H4 Fisheye camera will be available for pre-order on August 30, 2016 and available for shipping in early October. Reach out to your Regional Sales Manager for additional questions on this launch.

Login to read this IPVM report.
Why do I need to log in?
IPVM conducts unique testing and research funded by member's payments enabling us to offer the most independent, accurate and in-depth information.

Related Reports on Sales

ASIS Offering Custom Research For Manufacturers on Nov 15, 2018
Manufacturers often want to know what industry people think about trends and, in particular, the segments and product they offer.  ASIS and its...
Ubiquiti Protect Video Surveillance Profile on Nov 07, 2018
Ubiquiti has now been in the video surveillance market for 7 years (see our first coverage back in 2011). In that time, the company's revenue has...
Wyze Explosive Growth Disrupting Consumer IP Camera Market on Oct 30, 2018
Wyze, a company founded only in 2017, is poised to disrupt the consumer IP camera market by combining American marketing and Chinese manufacturing...
Huawei To Be “Top Three Global Position” in Video Surveillance on Oct 29, 2018
Huawei - China’s biggest networking gear and smartphone maker - plans to become one of the top three global video surveillance manufacturers in...
Dahua Phasing Out FLIR Brand on Oct 26, 2018
8 months after Dahua acquired FLIR's SMB video surveillance business (their own OEM), Dahua has told dealers that it will be phasing out the use of...
When Your Salesperson Creates An International Incident (Amazon / ICE) on Oct 23, 2018
Having your salespeople be aggressive and go after big accounts is a virtue, mostly. On occasions, it can cause problems. A new case involves...
Geutebruck Company Profile on Oct 22, 2018
Geutebrück has been in business for nearly 50 years, but they are not well known within the US surveillance market. In this report, we profile...
Knightscope Winning Investors, Struggling With Growth on Oct 16, 2018
While Knightscope's new financials show the company only winning 11 new customers in the past 12 months, the company continues to win new...
Integrator Laptop Guide on Oct 16, 2018
This 18-page guide provides guidance and statistics about integrator laptop use. 150 integrators explained to IPVM in detail about their laptops,...
ADI's Financials Revealed + W-Box Growth Priority on Oct 15, 2018
  ADI is one of the most powerful distributors in the security industry but how big are they? How much profit do they make? How much do they sell...

Most Recent Industry Reports

Throughtek P2P/Cloud Solution Profile on Nov 15, 2018
Many IoT manufacturers either do not have the capabilities or the interest to develop their own cloud management software for their devices....
ASIS Offering Custom Research For Manufacturers on Nov 15, 2018
Manufacturers often want to know what industry people think about trends and, in particular, the segments and product they offer.  ASIS and its...
ISC East 2018 Mini-Show Report on Nov 15, 2018
ISC East, by its own admission, is not a national or international show, billed as the "Largest Annual Northeast U.S. Security...
Hikvision Silent on "Bad Architectural Practices" Cybersecurity Report on Nov 14, 2018
A 'significant vulnerability was found in Hikvision cameras' by VDOO, a startup cybersecurity specialist. Hikvision has fixed the specific...
French Government Threatens School with $1.7M Fine For “Excessive Video Surveillance” on Nov 14, 2018
The French government has notified a high-profile Paris coding academy that it risks a fine of up to 1.5 million euros (about $1.7m) if it...
Integrator Credit Card Alternative Divvy on Nov 13, 2018
Most security integrators are small businesses but large enough that they have various employees that need to be able to expense various charges as...
Directory of Video Intercoms on Nov 13, 2018
Video Intercoms, also known as Video Door-Phones or Video Entry Systems, have been growing in the past decade as more and more IP camera...
Beware Amazon Go Store Hype (Tested) on Nov 13, 2018
IPVM's trip to and testing of Amazon Go's San Francisco store shows a number of significant operational and economic issues that undermine the...
Magos Radar Company Profile on Nov 12, 2018
Magos America General Manager Yaron Zussman admits when he first came across Magos, he asked himself: "What's innovative about radar?" Be that as...
Genetec Privacy Protector Tested on Nov 12, 2018
Genetec has built Kiwi Security's Privacy Protector into Security Center, an analytic which anonymizes individuals in cameras' fields of view...

The world's leading video surveillance information source, IPVM provides the best reporting, testing and training for 10,000+ members globally. Dedicated to independent and objective information, we uniquely refuse any and all advertisements, sponsorship and consulting from manufacturers.

About | FAQ | Contact