Avigilon Employee Claims ‘Pissing Contest’ With IPVM

Author: IPVM Team, Published on Apr 16, 2013

I saw the same ad that most ISC West attendees probably saw at McCarran International Airport. Baggage claim was draped in Avigilon banners with bold letters proclaiming “Analyze, Prevent, Stop.” At the bottom of the banner, it says to “get the full story” visit the Avigilon ISC West booth.

Preventing and stopping crimes are the 'holy grail' of surveillance but actually delivering this is hard. We wanted to better understand how Avigilon was doing this.

I visited the booth five times during the show, however, each time employees told me I needed to direct any questions about the ad to its marketing team who for the duration of the show, “wasn’t available” --- at least not available to speak to anyone from IPVM. After the first day of the show, Avigilon’s marketing manager started following me on Twitter. I reached out to him there and never heard back.

By the last day of the show (and probably after getting annoyed with my hanging around the booth so often), an Avigilon employee said not only were they not allowed to talk to IPVM -- even about something as innocuous as an airport ad -- but also that I “should know that this is a pissing contest.” "Between Avigilon and IPVM?", I asked. “Yeah, you know the deal already.”

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Comments (62)

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Certainly, this is not the first time that a manufacturer has been 'pissed' at us. However, all we simply wanted to know is the 'full story' they said they would provide about a very intriguing and prominent ad.

I can understand that manufacturers have trouble with an independent organization like IPVM. In fairness, manufacturers are used to simply negotiating price for favorable coverage or taking poorly paid 'editors' out to dinner. That obviously does not work with us.

We reach out to manufacturers because we want them to explain their position. It is certainly Avigilon's prerogative to give us the silent treatment, but I am not sure what that will accomplish.

We are still happy to speak with anyone from Avigilon. Barring that, IPVM members who are Avigilon partners, feel free to comment and make the case for Avigilon.

I thought all Avigilon partners shared the same IPVM account? *wink wink, nudge nudge*

Okay, okay, just kidding guys... boy, but Avigilon's infamy around here just keeps growing, eh?

I have a question about that ad too: what are they purporting to "stop" here? Old guys at the mall, napping in the Husband Chair? Seems like a victimless crime, no?

That's a security guard napping in the ad. I think they could stop security guard napping, obviously, assuming the guard watching the cameras isn't asleep.

If you are getting under their skin it simply means you are doing the right thing.

Just like any other mfg they have some pretty bad marketing from time to time. Luckily their products are solid. I definitely did not like the add but I've seen far worse... I wonder where some of these marketing campaigns come from and how on earth they get approved? At least they didn't have half naked girls in their booth... even if some of the business suits were questionable. I guess marketing departments will be marketing departments and thinking about it I guess the add did peak some interest... including IPVM.

As a partner I will say their products are great and from an intuitiveness, ease of use / setup and reliability standpoint their software is second to none.

Joshua, I actually didn't think it was a really bad ad (certainly compared to others from them), just a confusing one. The concerted effort to hide any explanation to us was more puzzling.

Certainly, peaking interest is one goal of marketing but it should not come at the expense of generating other concerns about the company.

I didn't like it considering all the things they could have done. As you stated if the idea is to spark interest then it worked and no explanation is necessary... so it really isn't puzzling why no one felt the need discuss it with you because there is no definitive explanation and it would be better to avoid you and spend their time with potential customers rather than try to appease you with some explanation.

However, from an egineering, technical and generally inquisitive mindset the add itself I did not like as I try avoid seemingly definitive statements. Maybe simply put the word "Help" or "Facilitate" or a combination of both at the top.

"...if the idea is to spark interest then it worked..."

By that token, Domewizard is doing something right - I would never have heard of them if not for John taking up the cause against "booth bimbos" here :) There is no such thing as bad press, after all.

from Matt Ion "...Domewizard is doing something right..."

Way to take one phrase out of context - nice move! I can do it too...

Joshua, I agree with your point about trying to avoid definitive statements in ads, especially since they are strong ones (e.g., prevent, stop).

Matt, there are a group of senior women inside the ASIS group actively working on a petition to ASIS and SIA asking them to ban 'booth babes' in the future, as a result of this issue. Plus, it's created a lot of ill will towards Dotwokz.

Manufacturers aren't reality stars, where even bad press can lead to more money.

John, I think personally that if you don't say anything they will think that all is well, and everyone thinks the way they think.

If you say something you stand the chance that no one will like what you say. If you just agree, then everyone just wants to follow suit and just follow the norm. We all just become robots & mindless wonder's in cultural mess.

Thanks for having an opinion and giving it. We wont know if something needs to be fixed or make it better or improve on something if we don't sit down and, have objective opinions, that are different from the status quo.

It helps development & thinking out side of the cubicle or boxed cage. It is very hard to always agree and make a statement that all viewers like.

This is very interesting. Although every company seems to have their flaws, whether it be product development and/or lifespan, RMA policy, tech support issues, pricing, etc, it's concerning that Avigilon would be battling what integrators are seeing as an advocate for their industry. Some execs may see IPVM as a nuisance or a pain in their ass, but the truth is, they are keeping the manufacturers honest and actually helping the industry become more competitive in nature. People are more informed- across the board. R&D is seeing what needs to be further developed on; Tech Support is seeing where they need to increase their efforts; Corporate is able to see everything across the board; Integrators and end users are able to judge for themselves on the product and manufacturer response (or lack thereof) without financial burden or failed jobs.

Avigilon acting in this way just shows they are afraid of something. Or hiding something. It's quite apparent.

I'm new to IPVM but I'm not new to CCTV or Avigilon. I can personally state they burned us on 3 projects due to less than stellar product, lack of technical support/problem resolution and when you question their desire to fix the problems they will kick you out.

Based on their actions, I interpret this as they're growing to $100M+ in revenue and as long as that growth continues they could care less about anyone pointing out an issue. They sure seem to spend 3 times more time denying they have a problem than it would take to fix it.

We're forced to use them for our existing customers, but would never consider them for any new projects---ever. I'd rather deal with Milestone, Genetec, Pelco, Interlogix or the like where there are issues but they'll step up to address them rather than put you down.

This is my personal opinion, but should Avigilon decide to attack me....I have all the emails as proof. I don't even feel comfortable disclosing my name in a public forum for fear they will attack me. It just shouldn't be that way for any company.

I have never dealt with Avigilion but all this talk on IPVM is making me sick when I hear "Avigilion". Ughhh! Are they that bad? (feeling cautious and sick as I ask)

As we have said repeatedly, Avigilon's products and pricing are strong. It's their marketing and interactions that seem to draw the most concerns.

I've had similar sorts of horror stories with other manufacturers, one in particular that's got some top-end hardware but is a nightmare to deal with the company... and frankly we've been considering Avigilon as an alternative to that one product line, in large part of because of the good rep their technology has. Gotta agree with "undisclosed integrator" above - the more I hear, the more I'm leary of going there at all. Why would I want to simply replace one headache with another one???

I would be REALLY interested to know whether any Avigilon mucky-mucks are reading this thread (I bet they are) and whether they take any of what is being said here to heart, or if they're just going to jam their heads further into the sand and blame IPVM for it all.

Note to Avigilon: IPVM is not your problem; they're just the medium here, provding a space for US, YOUR POTENTIAL CUSTOMERS, to share information. If it doesn't happen here, it will happen somewhere else on the 'net. Perhaps you should be paying attention instead of playing coy and simply denying there's a problem.

Worth noting, Avigilon has been using the same exact banners for like three years now- why is it suddenly subject to so much criticism? With regard to their growth and aggressiveness, it mustn't go unnoticed that their once confident dealer base (who made them what they are today) is rapidly abandoning ship due to their rather noteworthy decline in both customer service and reliability. Avigilon's over the top, pompous execution of product demonstrations and outlandish bid proposals aren't helping them either. I hear derivatives of this quite often, but most recently one of my customers, one of the largest school districts in the US, told me about their Avigilon demo- this is a direct cut n paste (names obscured): "...I wouldn't worry about it in the least, the board just wanted to see their options. Avigilon software is nice and all, but it's a bit too rich for our blood. Not only can the rep not get enough of himself- nice suit, but we told him our budget, and he came in with $10k cameras, more than triple ******'s bid. And if you ask me, something fishy is going on there too..." -The fishy part WAS extremely fishy. Anyway, get out of the suits, and get over yourselves.

It's not the banner that's being criticized (other than a few gentle jabs), it's the Avigilon booth personnel's reaction to John's attempt to take them up on the offer on the banner to "Get the full story at the Avigilon booth" that set all this off.

What's with the multiple references to Avigilon's suits? :)

Yes, the banner was not a big thing to us, it was just one of many displays we took pictures of at ISC West. As Matt said, it was Avigilon's response that triggered this discussion.

Btw, I am genuinely confused why Avigilon does not simply defuse these situations. It's PR 101. Even if Avigilon does not respect us, it is easy to spin. Here's what I would do if I was Avigilon's marketing person:

"Sorry we missed you at the show. We had an immense number of people stopping by our booth, and we were busy every single moment. As the fastest growing company in the history of capitalism and the most popular booth around, you sometimes run out of time. Anyhoo, we certainly meant no disrespect. We know how passionate your team is about low level details and just wanted to make sure that we got you the right answer. Specifically, as to the banner, we were emphasizing the incredible ease of use of our VMS and our industry leading range of megapixel cameras that helps guards prevent and stop crimes. We have an immense amount of success stories [insert link, etc.]. Thanks for your interest."

They do not even need to answer our question directly, as I demonstrate in the fake response above. At least, it would make them look responsive and allow their supporters to point to their position.

That being said, considering how they admitted and never did anything about their home page ad, it's not surprising not to hear from them. But that said, such silence is a questionable PR tactic.

What does Avigilon do that is so special anyway? Cheap encoders and auto focusing cameras? Gimmie a break. I know of another school district in my neck of the woods where there is an Avigilon system not function properly as well. Avigilon was very diffcult to deal with in our experience in dealing with them. Back in 2011 we were looking to replace Pelco with them but Pelco has made improvements since then and we chose to add Axis instead (thank god). The JPEG 2000 was really what grabbed us but we felt that you had to built an entire seperate video system for it work properly. Not too many clients have budget for an H.264 system and a JPEG2000 system backing the main system up. The company shouldn't have gone public so soon since they are going through growing pains. I'm glad we don't have to deal with those a******

They have been after us to integrate with their cameras even though we compete in the VMS space. So at this most recent tradeshow we had our camera integration engineer go over to their booth to get a demo from them. While he was watching the "criminaldo" video, an Avigilon employee walked up to him and asked if he was with our company. When he responded in the affirmative, he then kicked him out of the booth! And it wasn't a nice, "Sorry but we are competitors" it was more like a "Get the f**k out of here!" Usually companies at the show have a "You show me yours, I will show you mine" kind of attitude.

Lets just say we won't be doing them any favors by integrating with their cameras.

Any one wanna give Avigilion a break?

I'll say the sales rep I talked to was quite nice and a lot more knowledgeable than most that I talk to when I was interested in using them. However I think we've decided to go with Axis...

Avigilon doesn't need a break, they need to address these issues. I posted 1 time above (I'm new to IPVM but I'm not new to CCTV...) so it's clear there are plenty of other unhappy users. Not everyone is a member of IPVM (though they should be) so I'm sure there are plenty more complaints just nowhere to post them. One or two issues alone is meaningless, but if you look at the total of the responses there seems to be a pattern: misleading ads, arrogant sales pitches, problematic installs, less than perfect equipment, and bad attitude towards other industry professionals..

If they had a product that warranted their "we're the best and none else is close" attitude (my statement) then one could overlook it, but in my opinion they don't. Their VMS is good, cameras decent, pricing is decent....but nowhere worth the dealing with the other issues.

Let me make it clear, if Avigilon dealt with these issues in house then there would be no need to state them here. I didn't come here to gripe, I did want to share my experiences. I would have much preferred working with Avigilon to correct my items but they made it clear they were not interested.

If they had a product that warranted their "we're the best and none else is close" attitude (my statement) then one could overlook it, but in my opinion they don't. Their VMS is good, cameras decent, pricing is decent....but nowhere worth the dealing with the other issues.

If you believe the posts from Avigilon partners here and on other forums, you'd think their VMS and cameras are the proverbial greatest thing since sliced bread... or spliced cables... or whatever. And in fairness, I don't think there's anything on the market that comes close to their Pro line for resolution and support for high-grade lenses.

But a single product line isn't enough to gloss over the issues presented here, especially since that line IS a fairly niche product, and the technical issues appear to be with the more bread-and-butter products.

We went to the ISC West show this year to find an alternative to Avigilon's VMS and we found many options. This was not the case three years ago. Our team went to the show and agree Avigilon booth was in retro mode this year. Many manufacturers have competitive VMS software, maybe not the high megapixel cameras, but yeah how many clients are going to install a 29 Mega pixel camera, at ahhh ......how many frames per second?????? Arrogance leads to complacency

Bunch of empty suits.

I actually subscribe to this site for video knowledge, I have however found that this is quickly turning into a TMZ website. I'm not sure what I gained from reading this, besides that someone in this post actually thought Pelco was good? Probably won't take that very serious!!

Hi Brandon, if you are looking for video knowledge than I recommend, for example, our in depth panoramic shootout results we just released yesterday.

Evidently, there are lots of people who want to discuss this as this was a short article that took on a life of its own driven by industry people commenting.

Kohler is my herooooo...

"I'm not sure what I gained from reading this, besides that someone in this post actually thought Pelco was good?"

Seriously? Have you actually READ this thread? There are at least a half-dozen very similar stories here of integrators trying to deal with Avigilon on various levels and having nothing but problems. There are two or three instances of integrators having problems with their hardware and receiving little if any technical support, and two or three more of people trying to learn more about their products and being shuffled unceremoniously away.

This kind of dicussion and sharing of information and experiences is, to me, one of the big advantages of this site. I can read marketing hype anywhere.

Yep, I read them. I don't really take to heart bad reviews, misery loves company and I feel like most integrators screw up IP systems based on their lack of knowledge and not the manufactures equipment. You can find a lot of bad reviews for every company and when the title of the article is already inviting people to write bad reviews I take it with a grain of salt.

Kohler, this isn't personal but it is a response to your comments. Kohler's reply is perfect Avigilon speak and the exact reason there are so many negative Avigilon comments here:

1. Ignore there's a problem.

2. When presented with a problem more than once tell the dealer it's them not the equipment.

3. Indicate that what you "feel" is fact and what is really happening is caused by anyone else because they are: stupid, angry, incapable of figuring out the simple Avigilon system/software, fill in any the blank other than address the problem.

4. Criticize other manufacturers but still don't address the problem.

I feel like most integrators screw up IP systems based on their lack of knowledge and not the manufactures equipment.

Sorry Kohler, how you "feel" and reality are not even close. For you to insult every poster here with your Avigilon attitude...never mind. Go install your Avigilon systems and tell your customers how great it is and it's the best thing since Walter Bruch. I was a true believer as well, eventually I woke up. When you do I'll be here for you.

I always find it better to discuss a problem rather than insult those presenting it.

It's all well and good to claim that technology-related issues are the fault of the integrator, and it may even be true in some cases... but that still doesn't explain OR excuse their behavior in dismissing John as described in the original post... or the VMS manufacturer whose integration engineer was (allegedly) rudely dismissed by an Avigilon rep.

Granted, some things are open to interpretation - maybe the Avigilon guy really wasn't rude to the VMS engineer, but it was only perceived that way, for example. Maybe John was too aggressive in his initial approach to the Avigilon booth. Maybe that's what Avigilon will say should they deign to respond to all this. And maybe that's a good reason for John to start wearing a tie-clip camera to trade shows :)

FYI, it was Carlton that went to the Avigilon booth 5 times, not me. He's the author of the article, as listed at the top of the page.

Ah, my bad... well, have to outfit him with the tie-clip cam then :)

I don't think they would have let John step foot on the carpet.

To clarify comments above:

Carlton's experience mirrors what Ethan and myself also experienced at the Avigilon booth. There was no misreading the response.

We talk to many manufacturers at these shows, whether they like us or not regardless. Sometimes the dialog is truncated because of "bad blood", but at the end of the day these manufacturers understand that talking to us is in their best interests. IPVM reaches much of their intended audience, too, and we often are much more efficient in communicating to those people than their PR teams.

As a general rule: We are not disruptive, discourteous, nor do we play the role of antagonists. IPVM does not visit booth with the intent of flipping over tables and mocking executives in spectacle fashion. We are there to assemble information and ask questions, just like the legions of others attending these shows. Even the manufacturers that resent us will find our conduct professional and respectful of their time.

Avigilon has every right to ice us (or anyone) out of their booth, but why? Why do they feel this is necessary?

Even on the face of it, it seems ridiculous to pay the money to create a trade show booth, allocate the staff to attend, plaster up banners saying "Visit our booth to find out more", and then when people DO come looking for info, to turn them away.

Why not just stay home?

Perhaps they, like so many others, find the time spent dabbling in the complacency wrought herein, amid the preponderance of self-righteous arrogance and bullying which embodies IPVM, is better spent out on the streets making sales for themselves.

Ironic that as a manufacturer I find myself writing this, but then, I just sold a quarter million in 'antiquated' analog equipment an hour ago, and it's lunchtime, so I suppose I'm entitled.

Here's what vendors often say about that, "Listen I spend hundreds of thousands on this booth (literally) for 20 hours show floor time. I need to make the most out of that massive investment. I don't have the time or interest to deal with idiots who want to distract me from my real customers."

Then the question becomes, "Is it worth talking to this person or that person?" etc.

As the title of this post itself is TMZish anyway it should be remembered as John Honovich stated himself Avigilon products are solid.

Maybe the undisclosed people commenting on this post are other mfgs or bad integrators or something else that causes them to post undisclosed. Are there any verifiable complaints other than the fact Avigilon didn't talk to IPVM at a tradeshow (we are a partner and we barely got any time so it's understandable - like John stated there is little time at these events to be productive). Is IPVM going to become a platform for unverifiable attacks on integrators and manufacturers from undisclosed recipients? It would be easy to come on IPVM as a competitor or a wannabe dealer who can't meet a commitment and doesn't get signed up or as a dealer who was removed due to poor performance and simply post unverifiable slander. Those people who come here for solid product information can see right through it - simply look at the product performance reviews - they do not align with the negative comments here and they never will as long as IPVM is diligent and Avigilon continues to manufacture great hardware & software.

Anyone considering a surveillance solution would be missing out if they did not evaluate Avigilon. To date the equipment has been solid and as stated previously the the software is very intuitive, incredibly easy to use and rock solid. We have many Aviiglon solutions deployed and have never had any issues with service either. I'm not sure who these unnamed integrators are but speaking from experience I would have to say Avigilon has as good or better support than any solution we currently use or have used in the past. A diligent buyer or integrator will choose the products that best fit their needs and I can say that for us and our customers the majority of the time that product is Avigilon...

AFAIK, Joshua, "Undisclosed" names are still visible to John... if there's something hinky about who they are (competing manufactuer, etc.), I'm confident he'd waste no time in calling them out.

Like Matt said and you confirmed you can see things I cannot. How would I know if undisclosed is not just one person posting multiple comments? I wouldn't... however, as you stated John - readers should take undisclosed comments with appropriate skepticism whether positive or negative.

I appreciate your concern about attitude toward you but we have never experienced this and neither have any of our customers so we are pleased with the support and communication we get from Avigilon.

I'm glad we see eye to eye on the fact that Avigilon's products are solid!

As long as you keep up your solid, performance related reviews I will be a customer.

FYI: I registered IPVTMZ.com for you for future articles of this nature :-).

^That site is gonna need a photo gallery of the booth girls!

Josh, we will not disclose who the 'undisclosed' individuals are - either 'for' or 'against' Avigilon. However, I did verify each person criticizing Avigilon as being a 'real' integrator and not a manufacturer in disguise. You can insinuate that these people are 'wannabes' or 'removed for poor performance' but it may very well be, as some say, they are existing Avigilon dealers who are afraid to disclose their name publicly for fear of being dropped as dealers. Ultimately, I don't know and it would be infeasible to verify one way or the other without disclosing their identities. Readers should certainly take undisclosed claims with appropriate skepticism.

That said, like you, our experiences testing and using Avigilon product's have been solid. On the other hand, a repeated criticism that many of the 'undisclosed' have made is about Avigilon's attitude and misleading claims, the latter of which remains are main concern.

Josh, as an fyi, I was not speaking about Avigilon's attitude towards us, but the negative attitude towards the multiple integrators who commented here. Again, my main concern remains the misleading marketing claims.

To Matt - of course!

To John - in our dealings with Avigilon we have never experienced anything like that so I would have to know the actual situation before being able to speak to the attitude comments. I can see that obviously the undisclosed posters have a negative attitude but I have seen nothing negative from Avigilon. Of course it's impossible to please everyone but I have to go from experience on this one and not heresay and give props to Avigilon for the products and service we have received to date.

And I will give you props for your panoramic review. It confirms the coolness does not match real world performance for details. (You wouldn't believe how many customers we have had to talk out of these that want to install them in 30' tall bays to see everything because some sales guy promised the world. It is so hard to be realistic with customers with all the propaganda!)

As long as we keep getting solid equipment and products from Avigilon at least we can both agree the products are definitely worth evaluating and are a great fit for many applications.

I'm an Undisclosed Integrator that commented above.

I take offense to the repeated TMZ reference, I see it as a means to put down this article and the people writing comments about legitimate problems. Most of Avigilon products are solid. We have experienced an issue with Avigilon cameras that to this day has not been resolved. Avigilon cameras are good they are not perfect. When you add to the other items noted, you can make your own decision.

If Joshua the Pro-Avigilon dealer fully read the comments above, in my case I specifically stated that I was afraid to disclose my name for fear Avigilon would go after us. That's how I see their internal culture. But if that happens, I have physical proof of the issues, so I stand behind my comments. I am more than happy to disclose them to John privately should he care to spend the time and look into it.

I had personally closed this thread on my end but when I see these statements...I mean feelings stated as facts...I had to respond.

  • Maybe the undisclosed people are other manufacturers. Maybe we are exactly who we say we are, let's stop with the guessing and if you want to address the problems Avigilon has, then great.
  • Slander. The legal defense to slander is that it's actually the truth.
  • Product reviews are only one part of the Avigilon package, not the only part.
  • If Avigilon works for you great, for the rest of us we've found different/better solutions to them.
  • IPVTMZ.com, again I find this offensive. I didn't make up or attempt to sensationalize my issues.

Lets stick to the facts and stop attempting to degrade those that don't agree with you.

Undisclosed,

I am not sorry if IPVTMZ offends you. It's not for you... and it's funny.

I am also not sorry for being appropriately skeptical, as John said, toward unverifiable comments from undisclosed sources.

I have not degraded anyone at all - I posted some possible scenarios for others who post degrading attacks. I'm not the one doing the attacking or degrading. Simply stating possibilities. If one of my scenarios struck home then your battleship is sunk :-). If not then you would realize I am looking at this from an obviously different view with a differing set of experiences.

If i take you at your word it sounds like you've moved on so I hope you do well.

Obviously no products are perfect and as you stated most of your Avigilon products were solid so again I have to go with experience and that's why I am also commenting about our positive experiences with Avigilon.

"I am also not sorry for being appropriately skeptical, as John said, toward unverifiable comments from undisclosed sources."

Not to belabour the point, Joshua, but while a little healthy skepticism is always a good thing, there's one thing you can be sure of: if someone like a competing manufacturer was slagging a competitor while "hiding" their name, John would not let the post stand unchallenged. The easy thing to do would be to simply delete it; John is far more likely to publicly call them on the carpet for the tactic.

I've been on IPVM for a couple years now, was a part of their LinkedIn group before that, and have known John from a couple forums even before that, and NOT letting participants get away with underhanded crap like that is, from what I can tell, a point of pride for him. If he thinks a negative post is there simply to grind an axe, he won't hesitate to insist the poster back up his claims.

All in all, that means you can be reasonably sure that such "undisclosed" posters and their comments are legit.

BTW, I thought the IPVTMZ bit was amusing. Not ROFL-funny, but amusing.

Matt,

I've been a member for quite some time and I've had John ask me to remove my posts or edit them and also make me post my name in certain comments so I know he takes care in editing his (the community's!) site. But I also know what can happen when people get disgruntled and I don't think it would be fair to those considering Avigilon to only hear comments from someone who might have had issues. I'm the other side of the coin here and am posting based on the excellent products and services we have received from Avigilon as well as our customers. I can understand them not wanting to speak to IPVM at a trade show (tactics aside) but based on our experiences over the past 4.5 years I cannot imagine a scenerio that would cause them to not provide top service to their customers. I can tell you that if any one of our customers were not satisfied with the product or our services they could call Avigilon directly and our territory sales rep would be on our case and looking to resolve the situation immediately. We have seriously never had any other solution that works so welus across so many applications for our techs and our customers as Avigilon. I know John appreciates our view and i am sure you can as well.

by the way Matt I've read and appreciate many of your posts as well. And yes IPVTMZ is at least amusing!

Well Guys , Glad to see my post are not the only ones removed or edited .

I tend not to get involved when you edit my appinions & responses .

The site becomes a control issue and not a professional site.

I think this is an item that needs to be addressed some time later.

Other item that is of concern is the ability for anyone to comment & not allow you to know who and why .

(Undisclosed) is a way of venting with out responsibility for your venting .

I still miss the like or I agree icon as with some other s .

I concur with a lot of the thoughts listed above .

Chris, since you have decided to address this publicly, allow me to explain to other readers what I have told you privately. Your posts are littered with dozens of basic grammar, spelling and formatting mistakes (here's another example). Often the posts are so hard to read, that it is difficult to make heads or tails what you are saying. I've emailed you repeatedly asking you to improve upon this yet you continue. I spend multiple hours each month simply editing your posts correcting hundreds of obvious spelling, grammar and formatting issues so that your posts can be understandable to others. While I appreciate your enthusiasm, posts that fall far beyond minimum standards for readability detract from the site.

I appolized John for the public display as i would like to maintain & keep your site to the professional level .

But others have the same bad english, so keep the standards consistant with all replys and comments .

Same standards for all.

I will try to do the best with controlling my responses and keeping it well thought out & professional .

It is important

I appreciate your site, appinions, others pt of view 's

I appolized John for the public display as i would like to maintain & keep your site to the professional level .

But others have the same bad english, so keep the standards consistant with all replys and comments .

Same standards for all.

I will try to do the best with controlling my responses and keeping it well thought out & professional .

It is important

I appreciate your site, appinions, others pt of view 's

@Christopher: "(Undisclosed) is a way of venting with out responsibility for your venting ."

On most forums I'd agree that anonymous posts are just a way of hiding behind one's keyboard so one can be a douche, and I'm normally one of the first to say, if you're going to put something out there, you shouldn't be afraid to own it.

This is a different environment, though. It's not a place for web weenies, it's a place for professionals... meaning everyone here is an industry peer in some way... and there are a lot of us. Because of that, there's a very good chance that a perfectly valid vent about a supplier, subcontractor, manufacturer, could come back to bite you in the ass, especially if that other person has a particularly thin skin and vindictive streak (not pointing at anyone in particular, BTW).

Obviously, some people above are concerned about this exact thing with Avigilon: they like the products; they install and use them, and probably make some good money on them, and because they're generally good products, they have happy customers using them... but they're concerned that saying anything negative about the company could lead to them having future problems dealing with the company or getting product or support.

To be honest, I can completely understand that position. I've had instances where I love the products, but the company drives me batty with inconsistent if not downright lousy support, constant-changing policies, and underhanded tactics. I could lay some epic rants on you about one or two of them... but I would want to do be "Undisclosed" as well, because I know there's a very real chance they'd cut off the supply line, or at the very least make my life miserable when looking for support... because frankly, I know that there are some thin-skinned, my-way-or-the-highway types at the top of these outfits.

If you don't have any suppliers like that, count yourself lucky... but understand, they DO EXIST, and for a number of us, it is a valid concern.

The difference here is, nobody is TRULY anonymous - John always knows who it is, so nobody can REALLY hide behind their keyboards.

I've had posts edited and/or deleted as well, and yeah, I find it annoying at the time... but having moderated and admin'd numerous forums in the past, I understand that sometimes it needs to be done to keep things on-track, to avoid things getting out of hand, or to maintain the professional atmosphere. While it's frustrating at the time, looking back at the posts of mine that have been altered using more of a "moderator's eye", I find I generally agree with the decision on most of them. And at the same time, John's pretty good about allowing a bit of levity now and then, not forcing things to be TOO stodgy - it makes for a bit of camaraderie.

Christopher, I emailed you privately. We can certainly discuss this further publicly, but you might appreciate it if I explained more directly.

Rest assured, though, we do apply the same standards of English readability to all commenters.

To Matt's point, this is a key rationale of undisclosed: "I could lay some epic rants on you about one or two of them... but I would want to do be "Undisclosed" as well, because I know there's a very real chance they'd cut off the supply line, or at the very least make my life miserable when looking for support... because frankly, I know that there are some thin-skinned, my-way-or-the-highway types at the top of these outfits."

Secondly, lots of end users choose to be undisclosed because they do not want to be spammed by vendors nor do they want private details of their operations known to the Internet.

Finally, while I can understand the theoretical fear that 'competitors are out to get me', I can tell you from years of experience with moderating close to 100,000 comments, that this almost never happens. If companies are going to do something underhanded, it's almost always to praise themselves rather than attack their competitors.

Thanks

Matt , Marty , john

I appreciate your oppinion .

If the site is controlled , the programs filter out the spam .

Thanks Matt. Very well put. I concur & appreciate your points of view here on this matter. I appreciate upfront opinions on concerns of the industry.

With regard to their growth and aggressiveness, it mustn't go unnoticed that their once confident dealer base (who made them what they are today) is rapidly abandoning ship due to their rather noteworthy decline in both customer service and reliability. Combine with the discretionary termination of their sales team, is only adding to the frustration of their dealer base.

I've had the pleasure of using Avigilon products almost exclusively during my low voltage career. The ease of installation and lack of hardware issues puts them out in front of most, if not all cameras I have worked on to date. I've had to work on arecont, axis, honeywell, as well as many others and in terms of technical support, Avigilon blows them out of the water.

Wait time is virtually not existant when contacting technical support and almost all of the issues I have had were resolved very quickly, regardless of how the technical support technician had to approach the issue. I always receive follow up emails, whether they are automated or not, to ensure that the solution was the right one and it is still working.

Their VMS software is FAR superior to any other that I have used, and that seems to be the general feedback I get from most of our customers as well. I've had everyone from fellow technicians to school secretaries tell me how user friendly it is, which results in the end user being able to edit their own settings(basic such as renaming cameras), search for their own events, bookmark their own clips, export their own video, which from my experience usually requires a call to the servicing technician.

This post was only about me giving positive feedback to the company I have dealed with on a regular basis for at least two years now. I simply do not understand where the negative feedback is coming from, but again, this is only based my experience.

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