Typo:
Despite this, ADI is still listed as one of the 12 'Top Brands' for ADI in the USA:
ADI Promotes Human Rights Abusing Dahua
Published Feb 26, 2021 14:23 PM
PUBLIC - This article does not require an IPVM subscription. Feel free to share.
Publicly Traded Resideo's ADI division, the security industry's largest distributor continues to promote 'stocking up' on Dahua despite Dahua's human rights abuse sanctions and growing evidence of Dahua's ongoing persecution of ethnic minorities.
Inside this note, we share a response from ADI to IPVM, a complaint to Resideo's Supplier Code of Conduct, and Resideo's ignoring the 'red flag' status of Dahua.
Red Flag
Since October 2019, business dealings with Dahua have carried a red flag:
Ongoing Persecution
While industry partners of Dahua have tried to ignore this as 'politics', an investigation by the LA Times and IPVM shows that Dahua has continued to develop and market ethnic oppression technologies throughout 2020.
ADI Top Brands
Despite this, Dahua is still listed as one of the 12 'Top Brands' for ADI in the USA:
Response ADI To Uyghur Warning Report
ADI responded generically to IPVM about Dahua's Uyghur Warning evidence saying:
ADI is committed to providing exceptional service to our customers. We will continue to monitor the situation and remain committed to comply with law and regulations.
Submission Violating Resideo Supplier Code of Conduct
Resideo maintains a Supplier Code of Conduct covering various ethical and human rights violations.
IPVM submitted a complaint about Dahua to Resideo's Integrity & Compliance team who acknowledged receipt:
Thank you for reporting your concern to the Resideo Integrity & Compliance team. Resideo takes all reported concerns seriously. Your concern will be reviewed by the appropriate person in the region (or business) for handling.
Stock Up on Dahua
At the same time, Dahua was featured amongst ADI USA's 'stock up and save' promotion this week:
Normalizing Human Rights Abuses
ADI is normalizing human rights abuses. As the largest security systems distributor, ADI's continuing to carry and feature Dahua, despite its ongoing human rights abuses and its repeated deception on these matters, signals to security industry participants that abusing human rights and lying about it is business as usual.
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Comments (96)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Feb 26, 2021UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Feb 26, 2021Must be a real slow news day at the IPVM offices.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021Here, to help balance the "unhelpful" gang.....
Helpful
Helpful
And helpful
I did my best.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021News? Really? They are not a news organization; those no longer exist. We know what ADI is doing, many of us use them as vendors every day. And will continue to. "Keep up the good work ADI! Ignore the complainers, they will eventually find something else to distract them - watch the tv networks catering to the 50+ crowd playing tv shows of the 60's, 70's & 80's. There are any number of commercials every 10 minutes describing human and animal rights abuses in every corner of the world, begging for our time, and more importantly, money, to "fix" it. Spend more time worrying about what is going on in your own respective countries first. Don't forget about that reverse mortgage. Fix your own problems, then worry about lost causes like abuses in cultures you have no understanding of." We may begin hearing some say. Maybe they're right, maybe not. "Got your ethnic human rights under control in your own country? Give it a try sometime" - may be heard echoing about. Boycott ADI, along with the mfg of MR. Potato head. Let's see how that affects their actions. An experiment of sorts. So much energy to waste, so little time. You only have so many years available to you; use them wisely... I just wasted 5 minutes....This won't stop; your efforts are futile, you're intelligent, start getting it - many beg. Take the $3million you make from us annually and put it to better use. Test "things", tell us what you think about it; this is what we want - some say. Stop wasting our time with issues that we will refuse to begin to do enough about to make a difference - others emplore you. Anyone here that cares enough to take any actions that make a real difference, will. I don't have enough time and neither do you. - say some of our peers. Worry about your own backyard first - fix it, or give it a good old college try. May be unhelpful, but it's right...you know it is.
Nyasha Muzwidziwa
Feb 27, 2021We do not subscribe and pay monthly subscriptions to tell us about human rights. If we need that will go to CNN and it's available for free.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021Well, now, not exactly for "free"; the cost of therapy required after watching a maximum dose of 5 minutes of CNN could potentially approach multiple thousands of dollars.. And remember; CNN has demonstrated many times that they are only interested in human rights or ethnic abuses when it suits "their narratives and/or very specific ethnicities", not because they(the abuses) are actually wrong...Please be careful; overexposure to CNN and other so-call news organizations may be dangerous to one's mental health (imo).
Nyasha Muzwidziwa
Feb 27, 2021Bottom line this platform is supposed to be neutral. So if the USA bans certain products we must all start shaking. I am worried about this kind of behavior.IPVM is the only technical site that we really find very useful information about Security products . Most of the guys that come here are engineers and solutions architects. We will see past this marketing and it's embarrassing. Most of us don't care whether the product is Chinese or American. As long as it works.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021Any of us that purchase Chinese-company based products (and we all do)must agree with that statement, mostly. But I would still prefer American, if comparable. Btw - John just updated the IPVM "about" section of the website and you may want to take a peek at the "neutrality" part. Ethics does appearently have some weight to the viewpoints expressed by them, but only "officially" for a week or so now(even though he says they've always been that way...blah..blah..and so on..)
Nyasha Muzwidziwa
Feb 27, 2021If I may ask . How did you come to the decision of preferring American products to Chinese?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021I'm American. It's just that simple. Ok, and I believe American made products can be as good if not superior to Chinese developed(sometimes stolen) designs.
U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 01, 2021Is common industry knowledge that many of the companies in question employ corporate espionage as part of their business models.
JH
John Honovich
Feb 28, 2021John just updated the IPVM "about" section of the website and you may want to take a peek at the "neutrality" part.
There is no 'neutrality' part (nor do I recall there ever being any). Are you confusing that with 'independent', which is prominent on our about page?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021No, I purposefully stated it that way, understanding there is no neutrality-part.
Not confused about it but thanks for asking.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021I was also wondering if maybe ADI is attempting to unload all of the surplus inventory they have already invested in, but not necessarily inviting their customers to create new orders requiring the distribution channel to purchase yet even more inventory. Similar to a going, going gone sale. Buy it up so we don't have to endure the losses. Why should ADI have to take the loss? Maybe sell off the existing stock then keep an eye on those human rights abusers; you know, the abuses will end annnnny day now... waiting....still waiting....ok, and yet, still waiting....any day now they will "fix" their culture...come on PRC, you can do it...
Nyasha Muzwidziwa
Feb 27, 2021IPVM is biased toward Western products. This kind of report can only fool the ignorant.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021May want to watch how you use thee word "biased" John will reference the dictionary and attempt to correct you. Maybe choose a different word to convey a perfectly reasonable thought that everyone else understands(we understand). IPVM may not have a predisposition for using western products ( although I wouldn't hold that against them in the slightest - I would purchase quality, cost competitive, American made products all day long, as long as union labor was not used - union and quality don't belong together especially on Monday or Friday production runs). You may end up losing less hair in the end. Don't pull it all out in the "control of the language debate".....thanks John; I'm now a member of Hair Club for Men (or whatever the language police call us today - humans with "male-like" appendages maybe). 12th floor air may be a bit thin.
Nyasha Muzwidziwa
Feb 27, 2021I mean exactly biased. "biased can just mean having a preference for one thing over another".
The notion that the USA can be the moral compass for everyone is wrong and those days are long gone. It hinders progression and technology advancement. We are tired of it. I do not want to see these kinds of articles on IPVM. They will end up losing the plot.
I need to look at an IPVM report and believe that it is accurate and I can make a decision based on the accuracy of the research done instead of second-guessing myself thinking maybe the report is in favor of a certain manufacturer.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 27, 2021Agreed... and, I'm happy people don't need a membership to read this one.
JH
John Honovich
Feb 28, 2021Nyasha, thanks for your feedback!
The notion that the USA can be the moral compass for everyone is wrong and those days are long gone. It hinders progression and technology advancement
We criticize US companies strongly as well, e.g., Verkada Faces Sexism, Discrimination, And Cultural Challenges, Verkada Falsely Claims "First Native Cloud-based Access Control and Video Security Solution", Verkada Fires 3, etc.
This is not a US vs China issue but fundamentally what is ethical? If developing "Uyghur warnings" are 'progression', that's not good progress. The industry and the world should stand firmly against using video surveillance to oppress ethnic minorities.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021Stop purchasing their goods and services, both there and here. That may work better then criticism. Give them a chance to stop through discussion (not never-ending discussion) then move to action.
Side note- Nyasha, are you lucky John didn't criticize you for using "biased"; I'm almost jealous....almost...
MM
Michael Miller
Feb 28, 2021Don't people need to be talking about these issues first to create awareness before anyone can take action?
What other industry sources are talking about his verse taking money from these same companies?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021Most don't really care, as long as the money still moves...let's keep talking and get woke...after there is no change (wait how long were we talking before taking action? Or were you just planning on hoping your kids take action ?) then can we act?
MM
Michael Miller
Feb 28, 2021I am finding a lot more clients care as each story comes out. It's the integrators that need to start caring more and are the ones that need to change their buying habits so the action starts to happen.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021Well if that is actually true, and clients care more, then we will see the results as integrators will be told by more and more customers to stop selling them products originated by these other horrible entities. But you can't always have low cost, feature-rich products and a clean conscience.(we see that in other industries).may need to choose one or the other, customers...
Btw- I'm not seeing that in my experience but I'm glad you are.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021Yes, Nyasha, thanks for the feedback; especially the parts about not wanting to see these articles (that we pay someone to generate with our money) and that IPVM use our money to do what we originally thought they were supposed to be doing with it; test products and services. Report on it. $3million annually in subscriptions should just about cover that... I would like the home page of the website give paying users the option to go to the "we are socially and ethically responsible" section and another option for what many of us paid for in the first place. Articles pertaining to "the product performance comparisons and new tech." I don't really appreciate sifting through the nightly-news-channel side in order to get to the part I'm here for. Here, new revenue model - pay us twice as much and you can avoid the" neverending abuse proliferation avoidance retraining machine.". Tell me once and I'll figure the rest out on my own. I got it. Or maybe don't test or inform us about products from MFG's you don't want us using. I don't purchase hik or Dahua or their OEM's. And it has nothing to do with anything you reported about abuses. I'm "acting". If more "acted" on a greater scale, behavior may change; except, they may not need us and it may also, not make a difference. If you really want to get the word out, there are more suitable non-pay platforms available. We will still figure it out. Anything but the neverending editorials of morality and ethics 101 classes. Stop attempting to be my moral compass; my parents (yes both of them) instilled and taught moral and ethical critical thought when I was younger, like they were supposed to, before we let our teachers attempt to train it out of our children for 6-8 hours a day.
JH
John Honovich
Feb 28, 2021that IPVM use our money to do what we originally thought they were supposed to be doing with it; test products and services
We have 15,000+ members with varying interests.
You have been very, very, vocal about your displeasure. If you want a refund, we are happy to give it to you. Let us know and our customer support team will process.
IPVM has always been more than just "test products and services" and we will continue to do so.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021That is certainly the easy way out. Do my rants and feedback bother you or disrupt your process? I suspect they do. I and many others feel the same about the editorials. See, we agree on something.(actually, I tend to agree with you on many other topics then you may think)
"IPVM has always been more than just "test products and services" and we will continue to do so." - at least officially for a week or so now.
Or maybe you will cancel me; then I won't be heard. That has become popular these days.
I'll continue to pay, as long as I choose, but I will also speak my mind. You're very, very vocal as well, and I along with others foot the bill. Maybe you're independently wealthy as well and don't really need us to finance your operation. You're lucky we put up with it so we can obtain the meat and potatoes we originally paid for. The rest is simply a side show.
JH
John Honovich
Feb 28, 2021Or maybe you will cancel me; then I won't be heard. That has become popular these days.
Do you want to be a victim? You are complaining about spending your money (e.g., "that IPVM use our money") so I offered you a way to not have your money spent in such a way you do not desire.
I and many others feel the same about the editorials...
You're lucky we put up with it so we can obtain the meat and potatoes we originally paid for.
Again, there are 15,000+ members so obviously people are going to feel all sorts of ways about IPVM.
We are going to continue to do what we believe is right. I am well aware that such actions cost us money from people who either disagree or who have business interests that IPVM's criticisms challenge.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Feb 28, 2021"We are going to continue to do what we believe is right"
Not "We"---Mainly You!
IMO
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021I think you may be right....well unless he has a mouse in his pocket, or the other 19 employees speak up....
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021Of course I do not want to be a victim, do you? I do however, like to be able to say what I have to say, especially when I'm paying for it. Thank you for the offer however I feel it not a feasible solution in this particular instance. I'm sorry to hear that you will continue to ignore what I want and what others want, but maybe if enough of the others feel the same way, and talk about it, you may change. Or if enough of the others take action you may change. (I guess I'm still in talk mode yet. It must not bother me enough to switch to action mode for the time being).
"I am well aware that such actions cost us money from people who either disagree or who have business interests that IPVM's criticisms challenge."- but ultimately, you don't care about it enough to change. Or simply don't want to change. At least you're aware of it.
JH
John Honovich
Feb 28, 2021I'm sorry to hear that you will continue to ignore what I want and what others want
you don't care about it enough to change. Or simply don't want to change.
I care deeply about what we do, it's why I am here answering your repeated criticisms on a Sunday. If I just wanted to maximize making money there are many other things that I could do in life.
We simply disagree. If you have new criticisms or questions, I'm happy to answer them, otherwise, you are free to state your opinion, without me rejoining.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Mar 01, 2021Just because they are no alternatives to IPVM, we are going to have to have to keep quiet otherwise we get threatened with a refund.
For now, we will playball because we do not have a choice. I do not think it was necessary for playing the refund card. People were just airing out their concerns.
JH
John Honovich
Mar 01, 2021going to have to have to keep quiet otherwise we get threatened with a refund.
Offering a refund to someone who complains that he does not like how his money is being used is now a threat?
#3 wants an organization that is neutral and does not take positions. That's not us.
You are welcome to publicly complain about IPVM on IPVM. That's quite a rare quality in this industry, where dissension is largely suppressed.
U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 02, 2021"I would like the home page of the website give paying users the option to go to the "we are socially and ethically responsible" section and another option for what many of us paid for in the first place."
I don't think this guy gets it. There's more to this industry than installing systems.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 01, 2021I don't feel anything IPVM has reported on this subject is inaccurate.
Can you explain what is inaccurate?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021They have stated that Dahua have abused human rights. This is not the case (as far as I’m aware). They manufacture equipment the Chinese authorities are using to abuse human rights. It’s not the same thing.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #11
Mar 02, 2021BINGO! Exactly my opinion on this also. If you are going to start holding manufacturers responsible for the actions taken by those who purchase their products then y'all need to take a good hard look at the gun manufacturers. They do a hell of a lot more damage than any video analytic.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021And it’s not just Dahua. There is a piece about Hikvision where it is stated that the Guardian newspaper in the UK found that Hikvision was abusing Human Rights in the UK including that they had fitted cameras in a block of toilets at a school in Norfolk (where I live). Hikvision didn’t install those cameras, the school handyman installed the cameras. They just happened to buy Hikvision. They could just as easily have bought Axis cameras to install.
Indeed, in none of the reported cases were Hikvision responsible for anything other than supplying a UK customer with a camera that the UK customer used to abuse someone’s human rights. Again, just as easily done with any camera.
When you start reading back into these stories, they’re generally not evidence of any wrongdoing by Dahua or Hikvision.
If there was any evidence that Dahua or Hikvision assembled cameras using slave labour they’d be flat out illegal in the UK.
And (as far as I’m aware) there is no such evidence so why all the noise about the two biggest surveillance camera manufacturers in the world?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021I'd love to know what the person who clicked 'Disagree' disagreed with. What I've stated is factually correct, unlike the IPVM article.
U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 02, 2021These buttons are often abused. For example, I stated below "Can you provide an example of how IPVM is biased?". Someone voted "Unhelpful". LOL... Unbelievable.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021Me too. What they disagree with? What part, what language, what actions, spell it out.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #11
Mar 08, 2021I'm guessing those people were actually looking for a "cancel" button.
U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 01, 2021Can you provide an example of how IPVM is biased? I have read many reviews based on testing results. How is that biased?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021U
Undisclosed #6
Mar 03, 2021Well maybe, people's Patience
Ben is actually tested in this thread.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Feb 28, 2021The fight against dahua and hikvision didn't start now.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Feb 28, 2021There isn't a fight; an actionable one that matters. That may be the problem.....
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Mar 01, 2021These guys were banned in America way before this happened, alongside Huawei. The truth is that there is a trade war between and China and the USA. I am not going to buy a 2000 USD camera vs a 300 USD camera simply because one is an American product or a German product.
I will base my decision based on quality alone.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021You buy solely on quality? So if Adolf Hitler personally assembled and sold the finest Surveillance equipment while still being a Nazi you’d still buy the kit? Interesting point if view.
U
Undisclosed #6
Mar 02, 2021So if Adolf Hitler personally assembled and sold the finest Surveillance equipment...
although I agree with your sentiment, I have no choice but to flag the clear cut violation of Godwin’s law.
;)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021AM
Andrew Myers
Mar 02, 2021This is a hypothetical / reductio ad absurdum. While one could infer that you were making a comparison between PRC (or Dahua) and Hitler, you didn't explicitly state that.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021That's far too smart for me. I just stand on a ladder and screw stuff to a wall...
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021Paging through my learner's Dictionary again ...standby...#9, move over on the ladder, this going to take us both to screw to the wall...
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021Well........... thinking about it....... still thinking........ok I suppose not....dang and the quality is soooo good...,..but no...that was difficult...
JO
James O'Donnell
Mar 01, 2021In the CCP, everyone is valued. Some are worth more $$ than others.
The 10% of dealers that that say yes to buying slave products from the CCP must be hoping that they can get a lung, heart, kidney or liver from the CCP. Every Uyghur is being genetically tested to see if their organs are a match for someone in the West. So think about it, a Uyghur might be worth $200,000 when parted out. Various observers have reported that there is no anesthesia used when they chop these poor people up to steal their organs. The detailed reports of gang raping of Uyghur women are disgusting enough. Are we also going to buy slave produced goods from the CCP? This is merely rewarding the new Nazis for their atrocities and experimenting on the innocent.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 01, 2021Each country may need to once again begin producing their OWN goods and then purchasing what they are unable to produce for themselves from other friendly countries. Leave the bad countries out to hang until they can become good. Global economic models and pure greed contributed to the problems we ALL are experiencing. How foolish to source over 80% of the worlds goods from one country then we all cry when they do what they want culturally (good, bad and the ugly). I'll stop purchasing all China sourced goods. But who will take me in when I'm living on the street with nothing? Now multiply me by another 2 Billion people. I don't want to purchase china products but our governments force us to via their policies. I purchase and sell NDAA AND human rights compliant cameras. Tired of the talking, want to see action on an epic level. Then we can move on to the next problem of the minute.
U
Undisclosed #6
Mar 01, 2021I purchase and sell NDAA AND human rights compliant cameras.
but do agree with the NDAA being passed? it’s an “action” at least, even if non-epic, which is different then “talking”, right?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 01, 2021Yes I agree with the terms of the NDAA. Many customers, governments and countries don't like being spied on either without at least being told up front that they're going to be spied on; yes, we all spy on each other in the end, and an even better reason for producing your own goods and selling them to your customers within your own countries. Yes I'm doing my part and acting. If everyone who cared so much would do their part too, this wouldn't be an issue any longer. Do your part.
U
Undisclosed #6
Mar 01, 2021and an even better reason for producing your own goods and selling them to your customers within your own countries.
yes, and if possible every state should make their own goods and sell to their own residents.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021These are the same stories that they spread to justify ejecting Iraq from Kuwait in 1990. I was sent there. When I got there it was 99.99% lies. The babies ripped out of incubators etc. etc. It was almost entirely made up and even the stuff that was grounded in truth had usually been brutally punished by the Iraqi's themselves (in the one case I know of directly where 2 gang rapes were carried out the Iraqi's hanged the entire unit including the officers).
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021Do you mean that the news media that we depended on for true/factual information were actually liars (i.e. - Brian Williams - biggest liar of all - a disgrace to the profession if you want to call journalism a profession..), big 'ol liars. Feeding us their version of the 'alice in wonderland' truth? Then those liars bred a newer, more blatant next generation of worse liars, but with the advancement of communication technologies, now have larger, faster platforms to proliferate their lies? That media? I am fed a daily, heaping spoonful of BS and have to then do the legwork of sifting through fact, fiction and garbage hybrids of fact and delusion. It's amazing; and then when these liars a caught and there's no way of sweeping their fantasies under the rug any longer, the liars(that get caught - they all lie one time or another to make the story juicy) are simply and quietly relocated to a different network or news outlet ( as they all cover each other's butt's). Luckily, for Brian(liar) Williams, I can't stomach msnbc(In that particular case). "Trust us, we're telling the truth, really" - sure, whatever, news media dopes...it's getting more difficult to believe anything these days unless you are actually there and see it happen with you own eyes and hear it as it's happening with your own ears... I wasn't going to comment on the different versions of reality fed to us but had to after reading your post. I agree with you about the liar media machine 100% , #9.
U
Undisclosed #6
Mar 02, 2021i.e. - Brian Williams - biggest liar of all - a disgrace...
totally, is that the guy who got out of the draft by claiming he had bone spurs, and later claimed that the danger of STD’s for him was like Vietnam and that he should get the Congressional Medal of Honor for it? or am I thinking of someone else?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Mar 02, 2021I think most of you that are attacking John should know from what I have seen he is not anti-china or pro-western companies. If he was that bias he would have banned some of you for some of the ridicilous comments. How would any of you feel if some of the people in those Chinese concentration camps were family members or friends? You understand there is a holocaust happening there right? The U.S. and recently Canada has declared it as a genocide. There is a difference between Chinese state owned companies like Hikvision and Dahua and Private Chinese companies like Uniview, TVT, and ZKTeco to name a few. He has not attacked Uniview (there is no evidence they are involved in the human rights violations, they are not owned by the PRC, and the recent tamper proof testing done by IPVM showed Uniview as a clear winner). And I do not recall IPVM slandering those mentioned Chinese companies.
The fact that some of you are so obsessed, loyal, or just plain lazy to learn and sell a new product is alarming (no pun intended). How do you expect your customers to evolve if you can not?? Instead of wasting time complaining about all these news and writing about it, learn an alternative product or do not read the article and move right along. If our government is ok with a Chinese brand that is NDAA compliant but not with Hikvision or Dahua maybe that should make you think about it longer and actually appreciate the work IPVM does to protect our industry. Most integrators do not know about this who do not have IPVM. I heard about one not being paid for a job they did on a federal site because they used a Hikvision OEM. If that is not worth the membership alone for this valuable infomration then I do not know what is!
My friend has a prominent company, is as white as white can get, and said he felt uncomofortable supporting Hikvision and switched to Uniview a year ago. Loves the product and I was also refered by a friend to the brand. That says something.
Since using Uniview we have gotten more referals from end users than any other brand we installed in the past. We also like Hanwha and use it when price is not an issue. All of our smartphones have internals from China. I do not see John being Pro-western. He and his team shares facts and the IPVM Calculator has us winning projects against the biggest names in the industry so thank you for that. The studies for favourability show Axis winning almost every year and are they American? No!
I do not write much on here but I was getting tired of the complaining. Really? you are going to complain about what news stories are on here when there is a damn genocide going on and Hikvision and Dahua are helping to make it happen? The sattire in all of this is so 2020.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Mar 02, 2021Are you ok that the USA is the #1 Arms dealer in the world?
Shall I tell you what arms/weapons "do" to people?
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021Yes, the weapons(tools) do to people exactly what they are designed to do; mame and/or kill, for some reason, if the trigger is pulled. "Who" is actually pulling the trigger and "why" is another thing.
U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 02, 2021That's an opinion. Weapons are used far more for defense and security when they're not even fired. Their presence alone is "use".
U
Undisclosed #7
Mar 02, 2021"Arms dealer" in your context is completely different than literally "dealing arms" by certain governments. Just saying...
China harvesting organs of Uighur Muslims, China Tribunal tells UN
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Mar 02, 2021Do your research.Uniview is in the same boat.Search articles on Uniview
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021I believe they had a good old go at Uniview here
Uniview Racist Uyghur Recognition Revealed
So, yes, they’re all at it. You’ll need to learn another camera company now....
Sorry!
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021I give them all a try one time or another; otherwise I still offer an onsite artist service to draw on paper, what he or she sees, 24x7, but that service tends to exceed most customer budgets :)
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 11, 2021No one is " attacking" John. He's a decent guy, has thoughts and feelings; puts them out there, and then those of us that may disagree with a very small portion of them, respond as such. I don't dislike john, personally, but do, at times, disagree with either what he has to say, or how he may deliver those thoughts. That simple. I will never blow sunshine up his skirt, just for the sake of being one of his pets but when I agree with him(as when I agree with anyone ) will make it known as well.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #8
Mar 02, 2021That is by far the stupidest analogy I have ever heard in my life. "Arms" are all weapons. It is not like some are not and some are. Many countries make them. That is their purpose. Period. If there was a specific U.S. government owned weapon that identified and only killed a specific race for example? Now that would be a fair analogy. Selling arms to another country is not a security threat for that country. Having video surveillance from a government owned country that is in a trade war is a whole different story altogether.
There are thousands of camera manufacturers in the world and ONLY TWO that use technology to make people who are walking down the street disappear by notifying the police of their presence due in fact of their ethnicity and religion. On top of having the ability if they really wanted to...to disable or peek into all the cameras and blame it on a hack. Can you imagine what the federal government buildings having that risk would mean in case of a war?
And I did not say I am ok that the U.S. being the number 1 arms dealer in the world. But they do not have bullets that automatically kill a specific ethnic minority while knowing to only stun and not kill everyone else through some technology. If you want an analogy I just gave you one without being anal about it.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021They should have probably put every ethnicity in the analytics. Then the user is entirely at fault for how they use the tech. I wasn't attacking John; but feel free to inturpret it as you may see fit. I tend to agree with him on many things. If I feel like complaining, I will. I have opinions like anyone else. If you don't like it, don't read my comments as soon as you feel I'm complaining or the comments of the other complainers. I had very specific issues with the way in which he presented his editorials on this subject day in and day out and voiced my opinions. Now you have voiced yours. I could care less. Just as you could care less about mine. Sometimes it just works out that way. I will never stop speaking my mind and never apologize for the ways in which I feel. As John said, we simply disagree.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021I'm ok that the US is number one in arms dealing. It's an end user issue; In my opinion.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021All cameras can be considered weapons. It's a simple matter of perspective. Anyone can spin anything, any way. These particular cameras may just be used as more efficient weapons(I call them tools, regardless of whether these versions are good or bad, because that is what cameras are, from my perspective.) As used to assist in the perpetuation of the end users "actual" atrocities (if you believe what you're being fed from news media and other elements of so-called reporting - it's not me,#9 opened that box..lol).
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021I think we have to separate out the manufacturer of the tool and the user of the tool.
Dahua (as far as I'm aware) do not actually abuse human rights. Dahua (as far as I am aware) supply equipment to the Chinese authorities and that the Chinese authorities abuse human rights.
Facial recognition software (and indeed racial profiling software) are not themselves abuses of human rights. If the Chinese authorities decide to use them for abusive purposes it seems genuinely harsh to label the supplier of the equipment as an abuser of human rights.
Personally, I'd be a lot more comfortable if these reports described Dahua as a manufacturer or surveillance equipment used by the Chinese authorities for human rights abuses.
It seems very convenient that Dahua (and Hikvision) are always pulled out for special attention when very, very, few surveillance cameras and recorders are made anywhere except China. And if we were really concerned about human rights abuses we'd have to boycott everything from China. And that wouldn't just be Dahua and Hikvision.
JH
John Honovich
Mar 02, 2021Dahua (as far as I'm aware) do not actually abuse human rights. Dahua (as far as I am aware) supply equipment to the Chinese authorities and that the Chinese authorities abuse human rights.
No, e.g., Dahua builds and operates police stations in Xinjiang. And Dahua builds Uyghur warning technology for the Police for the clear purpose of suppressing ethnic minorities.
To be clear, I agree with you on the principle that if someone sells a generic device to a customer, without direct customization or implementation, they should not be held responsible. For example, imagine Hikvision (or Axis or Avigilon) cameras are sold direct (theoretically) to a guy who turns out to be a serial killer. Unless Hikvision (or Axis or Aviiglon) knew this person was a serial killer, it's not the manufacturer's fault.
In this case, Dahua knows full well what "Uyghur Warning" technology is being used for and they know full well what those police stations they are operating are used for, etc.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 02, 2021I’m happy to accept what you say at face value and I have no doubt that you believe what you write. Unfortunately, by any standard of proof, you wouldn’t get a conviction. You have heresay and circumstantial evidence. All you can prove is that Dahua work with and manufacture equipment for people who are alleged to be committing human rights abuses in China.
If you’d written what you wrote in the Hikvision/Guardian piece about my company, we would have sued and we’d have won. Because you’re making too many leaps from what people suspect to what can be proved.
My real challenge with your stance is that you don’t take the same position with all Chinese manufactured goods. Dahua, Hikvision and Uniview are not doing this because their staff hate Uygurs (although maybe that’s true) but rather because it’s the position of the Chinese government. And because China is a communist dictatorship none of these companies has clean hands. And the even sadder fact is that if you tried to make any kind of system without any Chinese components, you’d REALLY struggle.
We lost the ability to leverage anything with regard to China when we allowed the vast majority of our manufacturing base to be relocated there.
I’m delighted to engage on any subject. I love the whole IPVM ecosystem but I do think you’re pushing too hard against Dahua and Hikvision.
JH
John Honovich
Mar 02, 2021by any standard of proof, you wouldn’t get a conviction
It was accepted by the US government:
Concluding:
And the Norwegian Ethics Council investigated Hikvision and by their standard of proof found Hikvision's human rights absues to be 'ongoing':
For sure, maybe it does not make your standard of proof but there are others that it does pass.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021Once again, the US is not the moral standard as relates to human rights abuses. Pot coating the kettle black.... I say so what to what the US government may "find" they are far from innocent.
JH
John Honovich
Mar 03, 2021the US is not the moral standard as relates to human rights abuses.
And your counter to Norway coming to the same conclusion is?
And the Norwegian Ethics Council investigated Hikvision and by their standard of proof found Hikvision's human rights absues to be 'ongoing':
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 04, 2021UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Mar 04, 2021The key word in the US statement is IMPLICATED. Implicated isn't convicted or guilty. It's "they were seen hanging around the area when the crime was committed".
Your stance of making very black & white statements (that are sometimes just plain wrong - like the Guardian and Hikvision fitting cameras in a school toilets) really undermines your credibility.
It just comes across as "I'm going to scour the internet for any mention of Dahua and then attach something bad to it".
As for the Norwegian statement it says they are "contributing to human rights abuses". Again, not actually committing human rights abuses.
Sadly, you have ZERO evidence to back up your assertions that Dahua staff are actually committing human rights abuses.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021Dahuad real mistake was not being inclusive enough. Singling out 1 ethnicity was just wrong. They should have included us all. What they did was racist by today's standards, alone.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021See but dauha is not using the technology, themselves, to commit human rights abuses, no matter what the perceived purpose or intended potential uses by others or regardless of what they know about how it may be used. Even so far as to say they purposefully implemented a single ethnicity analytic function; they, are not, themselves abusing anyone unless they are somehow physically "forcing" said ethnicity, themselves, to participate in the creation or use of said feature and they, themselves are physically abusing said ethnicity. The PRC should be held responsible. They are actually commiting the actionable abuses.
UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #10
Mar 02, 2021I suggest keeping it simple: this is wrong, that's it
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 02, 2021What part is wrong? Not so simple. I suppose I would further say using the cameras in the ways described, in my opinion, is wrong. Now, if an organization we 'trust' were to send a non-liar to where the stories are happening and reports back, themselves, not parakeeting someone else's reporting (that I may not feel is trustworthy), that something bad is happening to the extent as described then I would tend to be less cynical about said topic. This is assuming, of course I didn't already believe the reports as relate to a topic were true.
UI
Undisclosed Integrator #3
Mar 03, 2021ADI, sorry you are not receiving the attention you deserve. We got away from you a bit on this one...
"ADI Promotes Human Rights Abusing Dahua" -
I never actually read the part in the ADI monthly flier where they literally stated the above language.
Could the title of this article be considered slander or no, maybe defamation? Maybe, depending on how the reader interprets the use of language. I have to go review my learner's Dictionary again..
Maybe a title of
" ADI running a sales promotion of controversial equipment manufacturer" -
not quite the attention grabber though.
ME
Matthew Eckman
Mar 04, 2021UI # 9 - I don't think John is saying that only these two companies are engaged in aiding a brutal genocide. I am sure many large corporation - including some in the US - do things that are unethical from white lie advertising to abusing employees to ... well... helping a brutal genocide take place. I doubt anyone is saying that you can perfectly avoid any trade against any company that does something morally wrong. He has never made the case that USA companies are angelic. But his reporting is immensely helpful if you care about human rights abuses. If you don't, then just move on to the next article - as most are just technical in nature.
If I need some cyanide-based pesticide such as Zyklon B for some legitimate purpose - and I have a choice between purchasing "Brand ABC" - a brand that is making tons of money off selling it to a regime that is gassing innocent people - and "Brand XYZ" which is not, I personally would like to purchase from Brand XYZ. Hopefully you would too. So the information IPVM is providing is very helpful in this regard. I know any Chinese product ultimately helps the CCP. Short of living in a cave I can't avoid not purchasing from China.
Further, because other corporations and the US government are taking the abuse very seriously, even if you don't care about other humans, you can argue that it is still important simply because you may consider moving away from these offending companies for financial reasons. Either way, the reporting is beneficial - and easy to skip over if you don't think it is.