Subscriber Discussion

When Will Cloud-Based Security Architectures Take Over Premise-Based?

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Brian Karas
Apr 25, 2017
IPVM

Saw this quote from Brivo's CEO on LinkedIn:

Cloud-based systems may be growing faster, but they are still a tiny minority of overall deployments. Will cloud overtake premise at some point for security architectures? What is holding back cloud-based systems from rapid adoption?

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 25, 2017
IPVM

It is silly when people take current growth rates and use it to create proofs ('mathematical certainty') of a future outcome. This only works if you assume those growth rates continue indefinitely but almost none do. For example, Japan should be twice the size of the US economy if 1985 rates continued.

Van Till should be the last person making such predictions. He has been at Brivo approaching 20 years and they have what - 1% of the access control market?

My 'prediction' is 5 years from now, cloud physical security will still be a significant minority and even 10 years from now, there is going to be a lot of physical security systems still primarily facility based and possibly still the majority.

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Tony Warren
Apr 25, 2017

I agree, I would think that customers will ultimately like to control their own destiny as far as security of their data.  On site client/server based systems still I believe offer the most security and there is control held by their IS groups.  There will be a greater number of small businesses that do not have their own IT/IS groups internally, and I think that's where Brivo fills a niche. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Apr 25, 2017

Manufactures are pushing the cloud based solutions hard, i believe due to the recurring revenue model.  I don't see it as a solution for all but for some it can be a way to "lease" a system with preset costs.  same idea as leasing a car.  works for some but not all.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #2
Apr 25, 2017

I'm curious as to the bandwidth requirements for these cloud storage services.  From what I see on a daily basis, most IP cameras are recording at least 1080p resolutions and still using H.264 with a rough bitrate estimate of 4Mbps.  Given that most simple internet connections don't offer a lot of upstream bandwidth (most usually go 35Mbps down and 5Mbps up from what I hear) how are these companies accomplishing these recordings?  Are they requiring customers to provide a 100/100Mbps fiber connection at that their home/place of business?  The US is very far behind in upgrading the internet connections for most locations, especially legacy sites, to something more modern such as fiber, so I see this as the greatest hurdle.

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Apr 25, 2017

This is so true for video but of course access control is much easier to host in cloud or at an integrator's own data centre. Also this can be done for any system, it doesn't have to specifically support cloud. We've setup several systems with no server on site, some quite old legacy systems using serial servers, even dongle based systems can easily be catered for using ESXi or HyperV. We have a strong Group Policy based isolation approach and can even give the client RDP access to their VM.

The value can be great for small to mid sized as I've often been asked to reconstruct information for corrupt DBs or disks that were not backed up properly on a schedule and not monitored properly and, most importantly, are running on non-RAID systems. Disks will fail - it's only a matter of time.

I think even for large installations this can work nicely as even if the connection fails, practically all panels maintain operation and some will continue global alarm operation by using P2P comms.

As you guys say, it depends on the client and each case and system needs to be examined but it's a great solution for monthly revenue, lowering the initial cost of installation and ensuring the system runs on RAID10 with daily backups.

Video is a different beast, upload speeds are the key limiting factors.

That's my 2 cents ;)

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #2
Apr 27, 2017

Thank you for the reply, I appreciate the information you've provided.  What kind of service level agreements are offered for this type of cloud based monitoring?  What happens when the customer loses their Internet connection due to a storm or maintenance at their ISP?  It seems like something that could be sticky if someone paid for this cloud based monitoring service and got robbed during a power outage when their internet was down.

UD
Undisclosed Distributor #2
Apr 27, 2017

Just answering my own question after some thought.  I would expect that backup devices such as 3G or 4G cellular communication equipment on a battery feed would be used for just this type of occasion.

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Apr 27, 2017

Exactly. Also bear in mind that we wouldn't do this for systems that didn't use intelligent panels and since volume is low to medium, most have memory capacity for 1000s of events before the old get overwritten.

Also if Internet fails, the client has more serious issues such as email and even file access as lots of these are cloud based too so they'll be very motivated to fix their connection.

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Craig Mc Cluskey
Apr 27, 2017

Also if Internet fails, the client has more serious issues such as email and even file access as lots of these are cloud based too so they'll be very motivated to fix their connection.

But what if the cloud provider's Internet goes down or his systems have problems, as I mentioned with Amazon (at least that's who I think it was) in my post below?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Apr 27, 2017

It is true that it relies on the end-to-end network working but with intelligent panels, there shouldn't be any information loss. An interruption to connectivity doesn't affect the on site system performance. As mentioned though global IO would have to be tested if used as it may not use P2P.

Also bear in mind here that the integrator is not monitoring to respond to alarms. It simply hosts the storage system for the security information. Alarm monitoring should always have multiple paths such as Internet, then 3/4G, then dialup/GSM etc to a dedicated alarm monitoring centre that can accept alarms from any of these paths. The standards require this.

For video then edge storage would be essential but this does drive up the price currently, though soon I'd say local SD storage will be standard or a few dollars more, as they say ;)

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Craig Mc Cluskey
Apr 25, 2017

Cloud-based systems have been touted as a "be-all, end-all" of many types of computer operation.

I, for one, will not be using cloud-based systems. I want control of my own data. I don't want others to have access to it.

In addition, I don't want to be dependent on someone else's computer system in another part of the country. Consider the recent failure of (IIRC!) Amazon back-end services on the East Coast which took down on-line financial transactions for sellers all over the country, even though their computer systems were functioning normally.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Apr 25, 2017

But is this any different to a monitoring centre having access to your event/alarm history and even able to turn areas on and off? Is it a question of trust?

Some would argue that our email and phone data is more security sensitive than access control history. Do we trust Google and Apple more with our more sensitive data than a certified local security professional? I think maybe we do.

And there really are lots of installations that run their access control on a PC with SQL Express and non-RAID system. If you can manage your own DR locally than indeed cloud may not be the way for you.

It is true what you say though Craig, you shouldn't jump on the cloud band wagon just because it's hip. Each case and client requirements/preferences be analysed.

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Hans Kahler
Apr 25, 2017
Eagle Eye Networks

Well said.

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Hans Kahler
Apr 25, 2017
Eagle Eye Networks

Let me start with saying that I'm biased.  I work at Eagle Eye Networks, a Cloud Based Video Surveillance company.  Also, we're owned by the same person that owns Brivo.  

As you may have guessed, I'm a big believer in cloud, but I also realize that it's not a fit for every situation.  An example I often use is you probably wouldn't buy an 18 wheeler when you need to landscape your yard, and someone who is building a road probably wouldn't use a pickup truck to haul the asphalt.   I don't believe any one approach, or product, is the answer to all situations.  You choose the right tool for the job at hand.  That's why home depot sells 35 different types of hammers.  

With that being said, cloud is the right fit for a lot of situations.  If you look outside of the physical security industry, it's hard to find a business system that isn't moving to the cloud.  Mail, CRM, Accounting, Phone Systems, Expenses, Employee Management, Data Backup, and others are all in the cloud now.  If you want a reference, here's a recent article from Forbes about the growth and adoption of cloud computing ARTICLE

Will Cloud ever dominate the physical security market?  I don't know.  Selfishly, I hope that it does.  When will that happen?  I really don't know, but I remember being at ISC West in 2010, and having someone ask me if I thought IP cameras were really going to replace analog.  I don't want to get in an IP vs Analog debate, I just want to point out this isn't the first time in recent history there's been a debate about how a specific technology is going to take over another one. 

The increase in cloud system adoption is happening, both within physical security as well as without. Like most technology adoption, it is slower in the physical security market than in other markets, but that doesn't mean that it won't happen, at some point.  

I don't believe that cloud is going to solve all of the world's problems, or even just the challenges of video surveillance.  There are certainly people who will never use cloud, you get that with any technology.  (My grandfather swore to never use an ATM, he wanted to always deal with a human when he went to the bank.)  What I do believe, is that there are many integrators and end users that benefit from a cloud solution and those numbers are growing. 

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JH
John Honovich
Apr 25, 2017
IPVM

I remember being at ISC West in 2010, and having someone ask me if I thought IP cameras were really going to replace analog.

My 2009 article: Forecast: 200% Growth IP Video Surveillance 2010-2012

My point of citing that is to say many people, including myself, knew that IP cameras were experiencing huge growth (50% CAGR) by that time so people who were even modestly informed realized that IP was at a huge inflection point.

I just don't see cloud video or access being anywhere close to where IP cameras were in 2009.

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Ross Vander Klok
Apr 26, 2017
IPVMU Certified

If you had asked me this a year or two ago I would have said 10 to 15 years and only if technology improves enough that bandwidth is not a concern at all.  Now, the main server room at my company is 90% empty.  Two years ago that room was packed full.  I think as more and more companies do they same thing they will get to the point of saying "Why are the only physical servers we have Security's servers?"  Once that happens all bets are off.

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UE
Undisclosed End User #3
Apr 26, 2017

One thing to have data into a "cloud", totally different thing to have/let the "cloud" control/provide access to on-premisses services/network.

 

It's RAT so be cautious, very cautious...

U
Undisclosed #4
Apr 26, 2017

When business class internet doesn't cost $300 a month for 5mb up?

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Daniel McKimm
Apr 28, 2017

Your point is key to this discussion. The nature and structure of our broadband Internet access is a topic we have ignored to our own detriment. As long as we are held hostage to "$300 a month for 5mb up" business class, don't necessarily expect widespread cloud adoption.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #5
Apr 27, 2017

Another hurdle for the cloud solution is the total cost of ownership.  Cloud provoders tout the TCO is less than the traditional system, but this is not really the case.  The target application for the cloud solution is the small business who often has budget constraints and looks at all-in-one security system (Lorex or qsee types) which has much more attractive price points and the cloud can not even come close to it. Until the bandwidth issue is resolved and the monthly price goes down to like $1 per camera, I do not see the big growth cloud providers are projecting for video.

 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #6
Apr 27, 2017

This is true, and I'd suggest integrators can do this much cheaper by hosting in their own mini-data centres as opposed to paying for say an Azure VM. The price per client goes way down if this is done. Also, as mentioned, it gives the ability to use dongle based systems as this would not be possible with another cloud provider.

SW
Steve Wagner
May 01, 2017

With all due respect for Mr. Van Till and his business, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

We are all one catastrophic, front page hack in some other part of our lives to make every CSO and consultant reverse course and run back to severs onsite.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #7
May 01, 2017

A well designed cloud solution won't fail (SD cards, or on-board reader memory) but what is the cloud?  Eagle Eye requires a unit onsite and then uploads to a storage location.  Is that cloud or just cloud backup?  Honeywell and others advertise 'cloud' but it's just cloud access to a local device for most products (every dvr has had that for 20yrs).

Until integrators change a mindset to look for recurring revenue it won't happen....and that's the small and medium guys that sell the bulk of overall systems.  IMO the cloud should be a part of all integrators' strategy, along with onsite systems.  Recurring revenue should be a part of all the solutions.  You should be offering a service, not a box.

Why cloud - how does the local dvr work on the newest iphone release, or the latest mobile device?  Most don't do updates well.  Many of the cloud solutions we've put in place are a direct result of a dvr theft (fyi, in case of brief power outage or Internet loss cams record on SD cards).  Can I walk in, rob you and then take the video?  

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Jonathan Lawry
May 01, 2017
Trecerdo, LLC

"The Cloud" really means "someone else's computer".  🤔

I do think the trend will continue, but I will steer clear of any 2nd-derivative predictions like any acceleration of the growth rate.

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