Subscriber Discussion

When Is It Too Cold To Install Cameras?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 31, 2018

We do hundreds of camera installs each year in the beautiful warm weather of Georgia so when one of my national customers offered us projects at their other branches across the company, we jumped at the opportunity. However, now it's time to schedule the installs and I realized it may be freezing cold and even snowing in some of these locations. As you know, we rarely have snow in GA and when we do, we shut down the city over 1/2 an inch. I remember it got down to 20 degrees one day and my guys couldn't last longer than 5 minutes without stopping from frozen hands. Please don't laugh but we are not built for cold. LOL. I was planning to send crews on the road to complete the installs. Each location has only 12-14 outdoor cameras but I was wondering how you northern installers handle the winter installs. Any tips? What temperature would you consider too low to do an installation? In GA we only cancel installs for heavy rain. We rarely have any other weather related issues.  Any help would be much appreciated.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #2
Oct 31, 2018

We typically layer our clothing so that we can rip off stuff if we get too hot...

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UE
Undisclosed End User #3
Oct 31, 2018

watch the windchill for exposure before skin freezes. Encourage beards. Lifts with heaters. 

Keep the product warm until just before you need it. Plastic gets brittle and the jacket can become brittle on wire when it becomes too cold.

when you say north are you talking lower Michigan or northern Canada orAlaska?  Big difference.  

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 31, 2018

New Jersey, Columbia MO

SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Depending on the time of year Columbia, MO doesn't get real cold. At least not the past several winters. Biggest thing is wind chill. Typically we haven't had a whole lot of snow around this part of the Midwest recently and they are saying it will be warmer than normal here. Disposable hand warmers work very good as well. Of course always remember when you smack your finger in the cold weather it hurts a 1000 times worse :)

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U
Undisclosed #4
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

OSHA says:

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Paul Grefenstette
Oct 31, 2018

I've terminated cat6 on a 40' boom lift in Feb in Chicago and the cladding on the cable was flaking off as it was frozen -- I'd say thats a bit too cold for an outdoor install but I got it done and back inside to warm up the hands -- layers keep the body warm but hand warmers and warm dry gloves are a must when it's colder than you know what ;)

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UE
Undisclosed End User #3
Oct 31, 2018

Remember Plenum cable is not for outdoor installations.. Not rated below 32deg.. make sure you use the right cable on the job. 

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Brian Rhodes
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I hate cold weather.  

Buy your crews one of those big propane-fired forced air heaters and make a 'hot spot' where they can thaw their hands every so often. 

Seriously, if you can get your guys out of the cold for 10 minutes every hour, they will work faster and better in those 50 minutes than they would in 60 minutes without it.

 

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U
Undisclosed #4
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

DIY version:

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Brian Rhodes
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

OP is asking about a job site, not an insane clown posse concert.

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U
Undisclosed #6
Oct 31, 2018

It is never too cold.

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CK
Carl Kristoffersen
Nov 01, 2018

Here's the style I use for portable heat.  

Dyna-Glo TT15CDGP 15,000 BTU LP Tank Top Heater

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Sean Patton
Oct 31, 2018

Depending on the task as long as the wind chill is above 20 degrees, that wouldn't stop our outdoor installs from getting done. Cat5 / 6 Cable Terminations are the trickiest part of the equation in my opinion, put a 6 foot piece of Cat 6 in your freezer for 12 hours, and then try to terminate and feed it into a camera housing without splitting/breaking.

Also if you're sending crews on the road, double check tire wear on their vehicles, you may overlook a tire with "some life" left in the tread, but once you're dealing with snowfall / packed ice slushy roads, its just not safe.

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Michael Budalich
Oct 31, 2018
Genetec

Couldn’t agree more with the tire comment. It’s something people in the northern parts think about way more than people in Georgia or Florida would. Most of them have never driven in any significant snow fall before and we all know how dangerous snowy roads are even for people seasoned to them. I refuse to even drive in the snow if it’s over 6 inches because of some of the things I’ve witnessed during New Jersey winters. 

 

Also, great rec by Brian Rhodes. Those propane heaters and 10 minute breaks will make your crew work 10x better.

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SD
Shannon Davis
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I got stuck in Atlanta one time when it snowed a few millimeters, you would have thought the world came to an end that day with vehicles abandoned everywhere.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 31, 2018

Yep! We called it Snowmageddon!

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #1
Oct 31, 2018

Thanks for all the suggestions! I feel much better about the project now.

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Clint Hays
Oct 31, 2018

Your crews will probably wear too many layers which can cause them to sweat without noticing it. That can lead to dehydration so make sure they stay hydrated.

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 31, 2018

Depends on the customer.  When you have a deadline to hit they don't care how cold it is outside.

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Daniel S-T
Oct 31, 2018

Sometimes they'll understand. I've installed cameras in all sorts of cold weather, but sometimes it is too cold. You simply tell the custom, look I'm sorry, but that camera is not going up today.

For any number of reasons, but usually once you mention safety, customers and managers don't really question it. You monitor the weather, and your schedule, and get back out there as soon as the weather is decent.

If the customer really doesn't understand...well as a technician I don't give a fuck. I am not climbing a ladder, hoping into a boom lift or bucket truck when the windchill is -30C or lower. Cables are gonna break, I may freeze my fingers off trying to do the ends(analog or IP), camera might not even want to boot up. And heck, with my fingers all frozen from doing the cable ends, I might even drop the camera!

I've never run into a situation where a customer doesn't understand.

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 31, 2018

When the customer has their CO inspection tomorrow and they are moving in the following day they don't care how cold it is.  I am not a fan of installing cameras in the cold for many reasons including employee safety but when there are deadlines to hit we have to hit them.  

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U
Undisclosed #4
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

When the customer has their CO inspection tomorrow and they are moving in the following day they don't care how cold it is.

Maybe to Daniel “cold” means something different than it does to you...

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MM
Michael Miller
Oct 31, 2018

This was back in 2015 when it was below 0F for several days. 

U
Undisclosed #4
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

This was back in 2015 when it was below 0F for several days.

Ouch, that was a cold morning!

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Daniel S-T
Oct 31, 2018

It's funny because I am from/in Winnipeg.

Last year we had a record number of days below -30 (-22F).

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Sean Nelson
Oct 31, 2018
Nelly's Security

It its too cold that just means you arent working hard enough...

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #5
Oct 31, 2018

I worked in southern BC doing house wiring before I got into surveillance. This doesn't really apply when working in -20C (-4F)... Especially when it's something like terminating receptacles, your fingers don't really stay warm. 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 05, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

Says the guy from Oklahoma 😂

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JG
Jeff Gack
Oct 31, 2018
IPVMU Certified

I have found that the wind can affect you more than the temperature.

A 30F day with a 20mph wind can be worse than a 20F day with a 3mph wind.

I have found that having lots of layers of clothing and making sure to remove some layers if you sweat at all.

Also for terminating wires, I have found it helps to wear nitrile gloves with leather gloves with the fingertips cut off over top of them. You can still work with the wires and the leather gloves keep the ladder from sucking all the heat from your hands. The nitrile gloves keep evaporation from cooling your finger tips so much.

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U
Undisclosed #7
Oct 31, 2018

You can work outside indefinitely in a cold climate as long as you layer up. You can't however work outside indefinitely in a hot climate.

It's a pain, but as long as the weather stays below freezing you can work outside all day. If it gets above 0C-32F and the ice/snow starts melting and gets the clothes/overalls wet then your entire crew is done. The trick is to not let any snow/ice that is stuck to you melt.

In short, it's better to work in subfreezing temperatures than in a climate that is hovering around ice's melting point.

There isn't a "too low" point for me. While I've never done it, I know Navy Seabees etc that have done line work in the arctic. However, you will run your crew in to the ground and there is a point, even as a business owner where you wouldn't blame the entire crew for telling you to eat sand.

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Rob Hammond
Nov 01, 2018
IPVMU Certified

My last camera install, was after Edison invented the light bulb, but well before Al Gore invented the internet.  However, I do know a little about working and playing in cold and snowy weather, from my experience working around our farm, and skiing in sub 0 weather in Vermont.  One particularly cold Vermont winter, when, for the week I was there, the temps never got up to 0, I found myself saying "if it would just warm up to 0, the skiing would be so much better."

Think about your underwear.  Even on a cold day, you can start to sweat, particularly as you work harder.  The worst thing you can have against your skin is a wet cotton undershirt, which will wick heat from your body. your crew should be wearing underwear with a synthetic blend, that is designed to wick moisture away from the skin to keep them dry.  This is also true for your socks - no cotton!

The layers should consist of a good shell that blocks the affects of wind and rain, with under layers of wool or fleece.  One of my go to layers is fleece vest. it keeps  your core warm, but dosen't bind your arms under your jacket.  and lastly, don't forget your head, a lot of heat is radiated from your head.  the heat loss may be felt in your feet, before it is felt in your head.  My cold advice: stay away from cotton, dress in layers, protect against the wind with a good shell, hat, and gloves.

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DB
Dean B
Nov 02, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Would you like to come up here to Edmonton Alberta Canada in January and try it out? Thanks for the LOL.... cheers

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U
Undisclosed #8
Nov 05, 2018

Undisclosed, I am in Canada. In some environments CCTV is essential and installations or maintenance are 365. In extreme cold we will do several things, have a vehicle running nearby and change technicians every 20-30 minutes. A wool hat to we call it a tuque (too-k), that will almost cover the ears. Gloves, thin but warm or chemical hand warmers (available at any Gander Mountain or Harbour Freight). Sometimes if the work is lengthy and a couple of guys are involved we have a ice fishing tent. This keeps the wind off, a small naphtha heater will make these cozy. The wind is the killer, all exterior clothing must be windproof, Gore-Tex is your best shell fabric.

That is for the people. for the equipment.... most cameras will operate to -40°C (same as -40°F) but they will not start below -30°C. Keep the camera in a warm place until the tech is ready to install. Sometimes if they have a portable PoE supply they will keep the camera running until they cut it over to the new CAT6 connection. If the camera has a manual back-focus adjustment, set up the lens and camera in the workshop (or hotel room) shooting out a window at an object approximately equal distance to the installed target. this will save time in the cold.

Lastly, plan the installation for the cold weather. To put a technician on a lift at -10°F and the wind is 30 mph up there, they will likely suffer frostbite on exposed skin in 10 minutes. The following article explains it well. Wind is more of an enemy than cold.

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-long-does-it-take-to-get-frostbite-or-hypothermia-2014-1

The last thing I do in planning is the camera tower installation. I choose a tilt-down tower for all PTZ cameras. This way the camera is lowered to the technician, no lift is required, the tech stays warmer and safer. If the tower is not near a road then snow clearing is not necessary to get access to the tower.

Here is a tower I have been using for 10 years. These things are indestructible, and the system does not require any connection coupling/uncoupling which we found to be problematic.  

https://www.altron.co.uk/industrial_cabinet_based_poles.html

The 1545/12/TD/BAS is my go-to tilt-down tower with built in cabinet. 12M (40') high.

If you do not want to import them, I can recommend a Canadian supplier.

 

cheers, Dan

 

 

 

 

 

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 05, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

#1 Keep your wire spools indoors at all times. Never let your wire get cold in the truck. It takes a long time to warm it back up.

#2 Buy appropriate clothing and footwear. I love my Milwaukee heated coat, but also make sure you wear enough layers. You may end up getting warm and need to peel off a layer. Don’t get too hot and start sweating, that’s a big no-no.

#3 Have plenty of warm beverages on hand to keep warm AND hydrated. The cold dry air is going to suck a lot of moisture out of your body. Staying hydrated will also keep you feeling warmer.

#4 Plan on outdoor work taking twice as long. Slippery ladders, cold fingers, losing screws in the snow, pushing carts thru icy lots, etc will always slow you down.

#5 Cordless batteries will also have shorter charges lifespans. Try to keep them in warm places and fully charged. 

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #9
Nov 15, 2018

Single digits here this morning.  My guys were doing an install at a lake front place yesterday and called to say that the cable jackets were cracking.  I say when the cable jacket is cracking it's too cold otherwise we've done installs in all weather conditions since winter is like 5 months out of the year over here; as long as we can be safe and a quality installation can be achieved.

 

I make sure they have warm jackets, hats and gloves and plenty of pocket and hand warmers.  We can't change the weather but we all have to get paid in the end.  Just gotta get it done at the end of the day otherwise we are in the unemployment line!

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 15, 2018
Pro Focus LLC

That’s why it’s essential to keep your wire inside a conditioned space and not leave it in a cold truck all night. Have the wire delivered to the site ahead of install and ask it’s kept in a warm space. Once the wire is warm, it should be fine pulling, even if it is pulled through a non-conditioned space. 

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U
Undisclosed #4
Nov 16, 2018
IPVMU Certified

Have the wire delivered to the site ahead of install and ask it’s kept in a warm space.

Or maybe hook up the whole spool to a POE camera for 30 minutes or so?

UI
Undisclosed Integrator #10
Nov 15, 2018

We pay attention to the type of cable and specifications of cables,Up here in Alaska. Handling cable and storage of cable. They rate at the coldest temp. We have handled cat5e cable in temperatures of 0 degrees and it is not the best scenario for the cable or for us. Haha keeping the equipment warm until it is installed is vital. Heaters for certain equipment is a must. Having our vans run all day on the job is common and wearing layers of clothing helps. The fingers get the worst of the cold. Generally we are installing during the winter months and pay attention when it is below zero degrees. Ice and roofs are also a concern with using ladders and lifts. If a camera takes a half hour to install then consider 1 hour as routine etc etc. hope this helps. By the way they make cable designed for cold weather handling. 

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 16, 2018
IPVM

#10, thanks for your first comment, very informative!

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