Subscriber Discussion

What Is The Best Way To Secure Cameras To Metal Rafter Style Ceilings?

DM
David Matyas
Nov 30, 2016

What is the best way to secure cameras to metal rafter style ceilings?

Thank you

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Ari Erenthal
Nov 30, 2016

Well, the usual way is with J hook beam clamps, but we published a report about magnetic J hooks from Magdaddy. They're a little pricier but much, much faster. If the ceiling is tall enough to require a scissor lift, using magnetic beam clamps works out cheaper.

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DM
David Matyas
Nov 30, 2016

I read that report and am actually planning on trying those out. But while they look great for wire, I fail to see how they can secure a dome or turret camera (such as hikvisions).

Thank you

U
Undisclosed #1
Nov 30, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I fail to see how they can secure a dome or turret camera (such as hikvisions).

I'm not sure I would use magnetic mounts myself, but for arguments sake, I note:

  1. The Magdaddy J-hook can hold up to 80lbs.
  2. Hikvision turret looks to be under 2lbs.
  3. You would have a safety tie-off (Besides the Cat 5 one :)

Though you would probably need a ladder to do the tie-off loop (unless that was magnetic as well - jk)

My main concern would be that over time vibrations would make it shift the FOV slightly, or that someone could get hold of the cable and yank it down, especially if you were using their cable hooks as well...

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Justin Gant
Nov 30, 2016
7PiXL

Here ya go,

http://magdaddyusa.com/products/all-products/magnetic-mounting-kit/

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Jon Dillabaugh
Nov 30, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

We have done this a few ways, depending on where you need the camera mounted.

You can use toggle bolts between the space in the main beams. Or simply a really long screw with a washer and nut on the top side.

Another way is to use beam clamps. There are two styles that we've used, bang ons and screw on types. They usually leave you with a 1/4-20 mounting hole. This may be too large for a smaller camera, so a j-box or Hik backbox with enlarged holes would fit best here.

Last, but certainly not least, if it is a museum, you should always simply use zip ties!

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CN
Chris Newhouse
Dec 01, 2016

Full Disclosure. I own Novattach Inc. Our mount was specifically designed for this purpose.

Best Regards,

Chris Newhouse

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

Chris, you can feel free to link to your company's site, give an explanation, etc.

We are concerned about promotional use but clearly this is on topic (a very specific topic) and more details would be useful.

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CN
Chris Newhouse
Dec 01, 2016

Thanks john,

Our products are explained & demonstrated on our web site www.novattach.com

Our mounting system was developed when I was in the field as an integrator and needed to reduce installation times. Novattach can be installed on an open web joist (metal rafter) in 30 seconds. It also comes with a channel strut spring stud for strut or "C-channel" applications. Since inception, we have established a number of other ceiling fastening options such as but not limited to: cable trays, suspended ceilings, flat concrete or other ceilings. The system also allows any camera or other device to be attached at the lower end making it a truly universal solution. If you wish to learn more, feel free to contact me directly through IPVM or our website.

Best Regards,

Chris

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Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 01, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

While that is a nice product and idea, I think it would be overkill for most projects. Any camera that needs a pole drop, or any camera that uses a pendant drop, like a PTZ, would make sense. However, for a typical Hikvision dome, you could simply fasten a $10 conduit box to the beam using two of these $2 beam clamps. I am unsure how much your product costs, but a less than $20 solution seems prudent.

CN
Chris Newhouse
Dec 01, 2016

I understand Jon, I guess everyone has a different definition of "best". Your method certainly works with the least expensive hardware cost. I would be inclined to include a value for the time it takes to put a mount together using toggle bolts, flanges, electrical boxes, conduit connectors or threaded pipe etc. In addition, you need to consider how to attach the camera to the bottom of the rig using couplers, connectors and thread reducers. As an integrator a few years ago, I also had to contend with relocating cameras once the project was complete and the client had a change of heart on locations. All in all, the extra time cost much more than using the correct hardware.

Best regards,

Chris

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Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 01, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

Chris, your device needs assembled, fitted with the correct NPT adapter, then I need to buy and install a pendant cap on a small dome, then hanging it, I have to tape up my whip and spin the assembly a bunch of times. That does not seem simpler to me than screwing a conduit box to a couple of $2 beam clamps that I have to turn a few times with a wrench.

Would you care to disclose the MSRP or suggested price for your kit? Is it any where near the $15~$20 of the way I am doing it now?

The other issue is what if I don't have space to drop the height of the camera? What if I need that height and need the camera mounted tight to the beam?

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CN
Chris Newhouse
Dec 01, 2016

Our mount can be purchase fully assemble but it only take 1-2 minutes to assemble yourself. As far as the correct NPT thread, we supply a multi-thread adapter that fits every camera that has a female threaded attachment. In the worst case where the tube on the pendant cap is a male thread, you would require a coupler which we also can supply but it is standard EMT/NPT so it can also be procured from any other source. I absolutely agree that if you need to be mounted right against the joist, our mount does not accommodate this as our shortest overall length is 5".

To address the installations where it is not desirable to use a pendant cap, we have an inexpensive Pendant Mount Adapter (PMA) that is shown on the website and allows any fixed dome to be attached. As we distribute through many major distribution partners, I prefer not to post pricing on IPVM. I would be happy to give you this information directly. If you wish to discuss this in further detail, I would recommend we take this offline and you contact me directly through phone or email. I would be thrilled to provide you with answers to all of your specific question.

Best regards,

Chris

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JH
John Honovich
Dec 01, 2016
IPVM

As we distribute through many major distribution partners, I prefer not to post pricing on IPVM.

Chris, please share the rough price range. It is germane to your self recommendation here.

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CN
Chris Newhouse
Dec 01, 2016

Thanks John,

Under $60USD for the most basic kit.

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Paul Grefenstette
Dec 01, 2016

We like to use the larger fender washers with a few toggle bolts when we can slide them between the beams or we use beam clamps with surface mount outdoor domes

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Joseph Parker
Dec 01, 2016

I like to use starboard. We keep 3/8" around, and when we have some downtime I have a tech cut disc with a hole saw and rectangles with a table saw for switches APs, corrugated metal mount locations, or boxes. The hole saw puts a perfect hole through the center, which we use with a snap toggle or regular bolt/large washer/lock washer/nut assembly. We premount the cameras for most jobs, and installation takes seconds. Aiming on the horizontal axis is as simple as a quick camera twist. It's actually pretty cheap, looks great, is weather proof. We even utilize it with hammer or screw beam clamps.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 02, 2016

Interesting post by Chris, and this was something that I posted about awhile back. We use Novattach frequently and have absolutely found it to be a superior method to everything else out there right now. The time involved in the process of assembling and attaching the bolts/beam clamps/j-boxes/conduits etc more than makes up for the cost difference between the Novattach equipment and the necessary boxes, etc. The entire kit can be assembled on the ground in just a couple of minutes and installed in only a couple more minutes. The tertiary parts like the NPT adapters are inexpensive enough to allow extras to be kept on hand, which eliminates wasted time, and their pendant mount adapter that can be used on most cameras is extremely beneficial. Add to that, on a project where you know in advance the length of pipe you will need, they will custom cut and ship the pipe to your lengths in the color you designate.

Sometimes, the least expensive way of doing something is not the best overall. Not only does Novattach look better then the primitive methods usually used, but it's a substantial labor savings as well.

For what it's worth, I have no connection to Novattach whatsoever except that we've used their products extensively.

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Jon Dillabaugh
Dec 02, 2016
Pro Focus LLC

So let me get this right, you can take the time off site to buy pipe, cut it to length, assemble the kit, and hang it, but bolting on two $2 clamps is doing too much? The two beam clamps cost less than your pipe, take up less space, and are much quicker to deal with, and are very likely to never be seen from the ground. If you use the bang on style, it's even faster on the correct beams.

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U
Undisclosed #2
Dec 05, 2016

We are either talking about two totally different things, or you just really like arguing.

First, while I'm sure there are scenarios where it's OK to attach a camera directly to a beam, that will rarely yield the view you actually want because of the height. Almost every scenario with cameras mounted in an environment with beams requires them to be dropped from the ceiling at least some distance to obtain a proper view. Therefore, that doesn't just require slapping two clamps onto a beam -- it requires clamps, a box, a stick of EMT that is probably going to have to be cut, etc, and then you have to assemble it all and drop it. With Novattach, you specify the length of pipe you need, and it arrives pre-cut, in a color matching your kit, and takes a matter of minutes to install. Plus, it looks a heck of a lot better than the alternative.

If you're literally just bolting a camera to the beam? Sure. Slap it up and call it good. But I just can't name a time I've ever done that.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Dec 05, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Almost every scenario with cameras mounted in an environment with beams requires them to be dropped from the ceiling at least some distance to obtain a proper view.

Even with 2.8-12mm varifocals?

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Joseph Parker
Dec 05, 2016

Varifocals don't help angles, which would be the primary reason most people would use drops IMO. I find that most of our installations on red steel are in working warehouses, so they wouldn't help much as clearance is a big issue. We actually do a fair amount of wall mounting in those instances to get better angles. That said, on the rare open concept retail job we definitely used drop poles and this product looks to make that easier.

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U
Undisclosed #1
Dec 05, 2016
IPVMU Certified

I was considering the OP's picture, one camera with no drop, the second with a relatively short one. Yes, angles may often require a drop, but I was only responding to the "almost every scenario" requires a drop.

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UI
Undisclosed Integrator #4
Dec 05, 2016

um... that second one that you are pointing out is a ceiling fan...

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U
Undisclosed #1
Dec 05, 2016
IPVMU Certified

That's what they want you to think ;)

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #3
Dec 05, 2016

Variofocal lenses will not accommodate shallow viewing angles. Mounting directly overhead is fine for overviews but not for identification. Many installations specify height that require the camera to be well below the ceiling or truss. This discussion has taken a wrong turn. Sometimes you need the camera at the truss. Sometimes you need the camera hanging down. This thread has offered solutions to both scenarios which is great for the OP who now has a multitude of choices to meet all potential situations.

Walking is faster than driving if you are just going to your next door neighbor's house...unless you live on a ranch and your next door neighbor lives 2 miles away...

CN
Chris Newhouse
Dec 02, 2016

I don't think anyone is arguing with you Jon. Certainly the cheapest and fastest way to strap a camera right against a joist would be a couple of $2 beam clamps. The OP did not clearly specify whether or not the camera must or could be right against the joist vs hanging down so we are simply providing various options for different scenarios.

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BB
Bob Brislin
Dec 05, 2016
IPVMU Certified

Just found this on my desk this morning:

Looks like around 10 bucks

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