Subscriber Discussion

VMS With Face Search, Recognition And Tracking?

UD
Undisclosed Distributor #1
Nov 15, 2017

Hi,

 

I am looking for an affordable VMS which can be integrated with any camera and can do the below.

1:Track or find a person using jpeg picture of the person.List out in which cameras he/she appeared and with time of apperence.

2:Track or find a person using snapshot picture or face captured by software itself from existing footage.List out in which cameras he/she appeared and with time of apperence.

Basically face recognition and tracking.I saw these functions offered in several chinese nvrs for CPSE, but looking for an affordable VMS solution which can do the same.

 

Thank You.

Avatar
Igor Falomkin
Nov 15, 2017
AxxonSoft

Hi,

I think face search feature from Axxon Next will be useful for you: https://youtu.be/efWVE8h0g38

JH
John Honovich
Nov 15, 2017
IPVM

#1, thanks for your first comment! Good and timely topic.

First, a question and a comment:

What do you consider 'affordable'? I ask because some people think affordable is $200 NVRs, other people think affordable is $5,000 or less, etc. Getting your sense of affordable would help in recommendations.

I would advise you to be very cautious about re-selling or distributing VMS with facial recognition. I strongly believe the support calls/load and potential complaints will be very high even if the facial analytics are 'good'. There are simply too many things that can go wrong. So my related advice is to pick a partner that you are sure is going to support you in handling the inevitable issues that arise which will be much more complex than normal video management ones.

3VR has had this for a decade. Axxonnet I know is at least doing integrated face search included in their VMS. There are a number of others though I am not sure how many are an add-on or an additional cost etc. Any VMS providers meeting this, feel free to post and explain in the comments.

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UD
Undisclosed Distributor #1
Nov 16, 2017

Thankyou John for the advise.I would consider $5000 or less affordable,As long as they dont charge that amount per camera license :-).

So Axxon is 1 option and i can see similar features in 3VR also.Tried contacting their sales channel in vain.

Any other recommended VMS which provide this option,please advise.

 

Thank You.

JH
John Honovich
Nov 16, 2017
IPVM

 i can see similar features in 3VR also.Tried contacting their sales channel in vain.

Be careful with 3VR. We do not track them that closely but I have enough contacts over the years that relate challenges for the company.

I didn't mention Avigilon since they are quite well known and don't do face alerting (at least yet) but if you are looking for advanced analytics, they are obviously a strong option.

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OF
Olivier Faber
Nov 16, 2017

We're a distributor of Eocortex VMS, which actually exactly matches your requirements. Their licenses are very competitively priced, and best of all, lifetime licenses.

Eocortex VMS Face Recognition Module

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UM
Undisclosed Manufacturer #2
Nov 16, 2017

LInk is dead

JH
John Honovich
Nov 16, 2017
IPVM

Olivier, thanks for sharing. How much have you used or sold of their face recognition module? I am curious to hear how well it worked in larger applications or harsh lighting conditions.

Btw, I do understand people like no recurring fees or maintenance but, when it comes to something like face recognition, which obviously is still improving, a prudent buyer would want some way to incentivize further development of the face recognition. A business model of lifetime licenses is one that heavily disincentives lifetime improvements.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 17, 2017

Hi Olivier,

The data from the link sounds good.

Is it possible to integrate or use this with Network Optix's NX Witness VMS? I am currently running that VMS but am wanting a not-too-expensive Face Recognition function to go with it.

I was offered Herta which I've seen a demo of it working with Nx Witness, but it was AU$20,600 for 1 camera, or AU$82,000 for 10 cameras, with AU$1320 per year licence fee. It probably works great but I need a less expensive solution.

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 17, 2017
IPVM

I was offered Herta which I've seen a demo of it working with Nx Witness, but it was AU$20,600 for 1 camera, or AU$82,000 for 10 cameras, with AU$1320 per year licence fee.

Fyi, for others, 1 AUD = .76 USD

Are you sure? Is Herta insane? Those prices are ludicrous.

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U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 17, 2017

Hi John,

Yes. I double-checked the quote and actually it was $86,010 for the 10 camera option.

Those prices include 10% tax.

That breaks down as:

a) 1 x Communications Module (one required for each project) = $1650

b) Licences for cameras = $9460 for 1 cam, $74866 for 10 cams

c) For max number of 1000 subjects to identify against = $9494.10

Note: you can pay more for more subjects, for example for 5000 = $21,150.80.

You need to pay a, b & c.

This was from the local distributor, not Herta directly.

 

 

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Avatar
Campbell Chang
Nov 20, 2017

Can confirm John.

I was looking at Herta a few years ago.  The price was mind boggling.  All potential customers said thanks but not at that price.

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JI
Jordi Ibero
Dec 11, 2017
Imago IP Solutions

Only one consideration. Herta might be the best facial recognition that just works. Most facial analytics sucks. It works great.

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OF
Olivier Faber
Nov 20, 2017

Hi,

We have a number of them running on a project with 'less than favorable conditions'. Despite our warnings, the end-user pressured us to implement the face recognition licenses on existing cameras. Despite our trepidations about the camera positions they actually worked quite well. The end-user is very satisfied so that's the most important part. Unfortunately I don't have the exact numbers on reliability... 

Price-wise, the basic face recognition module starts at $300 per camera, with a separate database license starting at $727 for 10 people (up to 10 million on request). You can get a temporary all-in license for free if you want to do your own in-house testing. 

About the Network Optix part, I wouldn't be qualified to answers that. You can contact Eocortex directly, they are very responsive in my experience. 

 

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 20, 2017
IPVM

The end-user is very satisfied so that's the most important part

Olivier, what is the user doing with face recognition? Real time alerts? Just searching? Trying to understand what aspect they are satisfied with.

OF
Olivier Faber
Nov 23, 2017

Hi John,

Real time alerts. They are using it to get an alert based on a black-list of people entering the premises (people who they've had problems with in the past or in one of their other locations). 

 

DC
Dan Cremins
Nov 27, 2017

Can you describe what level of accuracy the solution provides and how it was calculated?

Avatar
Skip Cusack
Nov 27, 2017

I'd like to understand this as well. Also, what format did the alerts take? Was it a simple alarm with a thumbnail image of the match? Or a match list of the most likely matches that had to be adjudicated? Finally, what was the frequency of false alarms (False Accepts)?

DC
Dan Cremins
Nov 27, 2017

Just to add:

Was the camera mounted at face level height or in the ceiling?

What was the typical distance from camera to face?

What was % accuracy of faces detected?

Of the faces detected, what was % accuracy of faces that matched the black list?

thx

U
Undisclosed #3
Nov 20, 2017

Thanks Olivier, that's good data. Good prices.

SW
Simon Webster
Nov 20, 2017

Hi - what you describe is a solution from Qognify (formerly Nice Systems).  Their patented "Suspect Search" video anaytics solution is an integrated feature within their VisionHub VMS - a web-based camera-centric VMS with built-in Incident Management, out of the box.  It is cost effective and provides compliance to every aspect of your listed requirements.  https://www.qognify.com/suspect-search-next-generation-video-analytics/ 

This is not facial recognition - it is based upon a head-to-toe metadata matching process and can be run in near real time across 10 cameras at a time.  You can search using existing footage, an uploaded snapshot or by building an avatar.  This is field-proven and deployed in solutions around the world.

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JH
John Honovich
Nov 20, 2017
IPVM

It is cost effective and provides compliance to every aspect of your listed requirements. 

Simon, what's the price for Qognify's Suspect Search? In our 2016 report, we were told:

Licensing the analytics that enable Suspect Search is $900 MSRP, on top of the base license for Qognify's VMS.

If that is still the case, that is pretty expensive. Not Herta comically expensive but still quite expensive for most, even real security organizations.

SW
Simon Webster
Nov 20, 2017

Hi John, pricing is still valid, however you have to remember that MRSP is MRSP, as in guidance only.  Also true that Suspect Search is licensed per channel on top of the core VMS, however, again this is a very competitive proposition against our industry competitors, hence the term "cost effective".  SuspectSearch does not rely on recognition/identification technology - each search is anonymous and disposable, which can be an important factor in certain jurisdictions.  The price point is always a valid argument for adoption, however if considering this as part of the VMS selection criteria, things obviously improve (hint).

 

JH
John Honovich
Nov 20, 2017
IPVM

Simon, what Qognify focuses on is selling individual large-scale projects. For those types of things, your pricing is not as much of a barrier.

I am emphasizing this because U1 who started this is a distributor. In distribution, Qognify's prices are quite high, simply fact.

U
Undisclosed #4
Nov 27, 2017

What value does the feature provide? Is there an ROI to the customer? E.g., known offender on-site, entity receives an alert, known offender is captured before he can offend again. Or, bad guy does something bad and needs to be found before he does it again, or, a child is lost. Is this worth $900+? 

Avatar
Campbell Chang
Nov 28, 2017

I use Axxon Next, however, were I to use Qognify, the usage case would still be the same.

In Australia, we would use this in clubs and pubs for self excluding gamblers/drinkers and venue excluded subjects.  There are exceptionally heavy fines for allowing a gambler who has put themselves on a self exclusion list to gamble again. These products enable venues to be aware of these people so that they can move around the premises for other services other than gaming.

JH
John Honovich
Nov 28, 2017
IPVM

In Australia, we would use this in clubs and pubs for self excluding gamblers/drinkers and venue excluded subjects. There are exceptionally heavy fines

Campbell, thanks! How well does the facial recognition work? I ask specifically because you mention the 'exceptionally heavy fines'.  Presumably, the system cannot be 100% accurate so on the occasions it misses someone, does the club get a heavy fine?

One other question - do the customers actively stop and look at the camera when entering? I am curious how challenging the logistics of capturing faces is.

Avatar
Campbell Chang
Nov 29, 2017

The system isn't tied to any regulation.  Some venues are using this simply as a better means of tracking patronage and being aware of who is on the premises.

The regulation simply states that if someone is self excluded, then the venue must make all steps to ensure they don't gamble or drink or what ever which includes forceful removal from the premises if required.

The venues are free to operate a self exclusion scheme in what ever manner they see fit as long as they operate one.  In many venues, this scheme is merely some poor photocopied picture on the back of the door in the office.

So some venues have turned to facial recognition which allows them to be aware of who is in the venue and in many cases, they encourage people to come and eat at the bistro or use the bar, but not to use the gambling facilities.

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MR
Miriam Rautiainen
Nov 28, 2017

Note: I work for Aimetis.

We offer Face Rec that I believe would meet your requirements.

More details are here: http://www.aimetis.com/Analytics/face-recognition.aspx

JH
John Honovich
Nov 28, 2017
IPVM

Justin, can you elaborate on how well you believe your face recognition will work?

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