Until An American Or Non-China Manufacturer Comes Along And Can Offer Reasonable Priced Cameras That The Masses Want, China Will Continue To Succeed, No Doubt About It

Nelly's Security

Until an American or non-China Manufacturer comes along and can offer reasonable priced cameras that the masses want, China will continue to succeed, no doubt about it. That, or if trump decides to impose a hefty tarriff on surveillance products.

Seems like most non-Chinese manufacturers only want to make high end solutions and when they try to compete with Hikvision, they fail. For example, take a look at Axis and their low priced offering ventures. Previously Offering no IR and indoor only models. And now their most recent venture, 1080p only models. Its a no brainer that wasnt going to be able to compete with the Chi-Coms at all. Perhaps they did it just to appease their current customer base, and if thats the case perhaps I shouldn't be so crticial but if they did it as an attempt to lure in new customers that are attracted to low cost, i feel it was a miserable attempt and ultimate failure.

The market is ripe for an american manufacturer startup who can offer simple cameras (IR Domes, Bullets, Standalone NVR, Etc) at reasonable commoditized pricing. It would take some very efficient manufacturing, efficient marketing, and a whole lot of money to get started which is probably why it wont happen anytime soon.

I dont think you need a massive sales team these days to get your product marketed either. Due to the invention of the internetz, you can achieve great things. Costs alone is a great marketing tool in this industry also. Look at Dahua, they were wildly popular before they even had a USA presence, based simply on their low price and dependable (at the time) products with 0 USA employees or Marketing dollars (unless you count the trade show appearances).

NOTICE: This comment was moved from an existing discussion: Amazon Enters Home Security Services

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John Honovich

IPVM

Sean, I moved this to its own discussion, since I think it's an interesting topic.

Seems like most non-Chinese manufacturers only want to make high end solutions and when they try to compete with Hikvision, they fail.

Their position generally is that it is impossible to compete with Hikvision and Dahua on price, so better to focus elsewhere.

I dont think you need a massive sales team these days to get your product marketed either.

So why does Hikvision USA have 150 or field salespeople? In all seriousness, for selling to integrators you have to have a lot of salespeople. These things don't sell themselves just on price. If they did, Longse would be #1, etc.

Look at Dahua, they were wildly popular before they even had a USA presence

Strongly disagree. Dahua was and are wildly popular at IPCamtalk and other DIY focused sites, but among dealers, Dahua never had meaningful traction. That's an important distinction especially if you want to sell tens of millions of dollars in cameras - the DIY / enthusiast market may be enthusiastic but given they buy only a handful of cameras at ~$100 each, they are not significant in an overall national sales effort.

All this noted I do agree with your general conclusion that China will continue to succeed at selling low-cost products but let us keep in mind is the China government mega deals and backing that fund the two China manufacturers with the lion's share of export surveillance products business.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

Their position generally is that it is impossible to compete with Hikvision and Dahua on price, so better to focus elsewhere.

I think its possible but would require alot of efficiency in all areas. Even if we had to pay just a tad more, i think it would be worth it given the fact that american software/apps/interfaces would beat anything designed by china.

there is obviously a market for scaled down simple products that work reliable.

So why does Hikvision USA have 150 or field salespeople? In all seriousness, for selling to integrators you have to have a lot of salespeople. These things don't sell themselves just on price. If they did, Longse would be #1, etc.

I dont think Hikvision needs it honestly. I think they would be very successful with just a few salespeople. But they have the money to do it so why not.

Here is what I think about Longse. If they could get more americanized and reliable original software/apps and come up with some original housings, I think they could actually be a contender to Dahua and Hikvision. Instead they are trying to copy Hik and have a very poor excuse for a copied Hikvision Interface. Their hardware is decent for the money. Their software completely sucks and is the main thing holding them back. I would be curious on how they rank in AHD camera sales in the world.

Strongly disagree. Dahua was and are wildly popular at IPCamtalk and other DIY focused sites, but among dealers, Dahua never had meaningful traction

Yeah but this is part of what made them popular in the USA. Zero marketing dollars this cost them. Dealers read those sites as well, or atleast they used to. Alot of people already knew who Dahua was well before they brought in their USA presence. Im not saying base your whole marketing tactics on forums, but I am saying there are efficient ways to market without hiring a bunch of humans.

As far as the enthusiastic DIY market. Dont underestimate the possibilities. Look at ring.

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John Honovich

IPVM

As far as the enthusiastic DIY market. Dont underestimate the possibilities. Look at ring.

You're killing me! :)

Ring has Shaq!

Ring's spend on marketing must be through the roof. Shaq is just one example.

And whether companies can be like Ring in the consumer space, there are no examples of that in the commercial video surveillance space that do not have huge sales forces. The closest is Ubiquiti (an American company) that has been muscled out by the Chinese to near irrelevance in the video surveillance market.

I dont think Hikvision needs it honestly. I think they would be very successful with just a few salespeople

No way. To be clear, this is not a criticism of Hikvision. I am saying EVERY manufacturer that wants to be a player in the commercial video surveillance market needs a large salesforce. Most dealers demand to have that type of local presence (both in the personal connection to their local salesperson and SE) and in terms of seeing / exposure to the manufacturer's brand and products.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

To be fair. I am pretty sure Shaq took an equity stake in Ring in exchange for advertising, but I get your point. Still the product is priced fair, and it works, which I think has alot more to do with their success than Shaq! But yeah, they are spending money for sure.

Slightly off topic but Simplisafe is another great success story in the enthusiastic DIY market. Very Small start but grew quickly.

I am saying EVERY manufacturer that wants to be a player in the commercial video surveillance market needs a large salesforce.

Do you really think its necessary in todays day and age and in the upcoming future? Maybe you are right, but I dont think so. For large enterprise jobs, maybe you are right. And for the old time custy's who are just used to dealing face to face with people, yeah I could see that. But for a manufacturer who wants to make some low cost cameras to the upcoming "texting" generation, I just dont see it.

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Sean Nelson

Nelly's Security

Let me put it this way. Having a large salesforce is similar to the multi-stored brick and mortar distributorship models. Works now, but probably will be a thing of the past before long. BOOM!

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John Honovich

IPVM

It could certainly change.

The biggest risk would be the disintermediating of integrators, i.e., consumers choose / buy differently than dealers.

To the extent that dealers have a significant impact on purchasing decisions, they favor manufacturer with strong sales forces to help them on real technical and operational issues as well as taking them to steakhouses and Tao, etc. ;)

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Ross Vander Klok

•May 02, 2018

IPVMU Certified

You forgot to add "case closed" after your "BOOM!".

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John Bazyk

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

Most dealers demand to have that type of local presence (both in the personal connection to their local salesperson and SE) and in terms of seeing / exposure to the manufacturer's brand and products.

Sort of jumping in here. I have to say, the more experience I gain the less I am impressed with most manufacturer salespeople. Most manufacture reps I have come across lack product knowledge and real-world experience and are totally unfamiliar with their competition. I can't tell you how often I ask questions about a product that they don't even know about. I would rather have the companies we buy from focus on building better informational websites and system design tools and FAQ's on their websites than build out an outside sales force. I believe a strong online presence and inside sales force is much more useful than outside guys in the field. I mean let's get real. Most of them just go from their morning appointment to their lunch appointment to their after lunch appointment and spend most of their time BSing. I can't remember the last time a sales guy was in my office who told me something I didn't already know.

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Undisclosed #1

That's because you are the exception to the standard integrator. Many integrators do little to no product research and get the bulk of their information and knowledge from those same guys you diss.

Just showing up is half the battle, and I agree with John that a large outside sales team is needed to make a dent in terms of getting any considerable overall market share. When the average integrator has the option between A) doing their own research on manufacturer websites and B) just going with whatever their local sales guy tells them, they will choose B over and over and over again, as long as it does not bite them in the ass (like when your cheap Chinese product company has a new cyber security exploit every month).

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John Bazyk

In reply to Undisclosed #1

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

UD1: You might be right. However, if I am the exception now, it's because I am in a unique situation. I don't believe I will be the exception for much longer.

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Michael Miller

In reply to Undisclosed #1

That's because you are the exception to the standard integrator. Many integrators do little to no product research and get the bulk of their information and knowledge from those same guys you diss.

This is very true. Most security/integrators sell what they are told is the best or what is on sale this month at ADI. They don't take the time to research and learn the products on the market. I make it a point to learn my competitor's systems better then they know it. Which has opened many doors for us.

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John Honovich

IPVM

I have to say, the more experience I gain the less I am impressed with most manufacturer salespeople.

I have the same impression based on going to various local events and listening in on regional salespeople (some are very good but many tend to either know little or have a distorted understanding of even basic topics).

On the other hand, there are a fair amount of integrators that know even less. And even for the integrators that do know more, I think many value having someone there that they can at least reach out to for help, even if that means just getting discounts or demo equipment or someone to escalate problems internally.

And then for the RSMs that are quality (even if we say that is 1 in 4 or 1 in 3), those people definitely provide motivation to stay with one company over another.

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John Bazyk

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

And then for the RSMs that are quality (even if we say that is 1 in 4 or 1 in 3), those people definitely provide motivation to stay with one company over another.

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Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC

Great investment! Love my Cutco

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Jon Dillabaugh

Pro Focus LLC

Totally agree here. It’s as if they only want to build relationships. They have no other value. I don’t need a friend. I need data and help.

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Undisclosed Integrator #3

Sadly, that is true in many cases.

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David Morgan

Security Dealer Marketing

I believe a strong online presence and inside sales force is much more useful than outside guys in the field.

Wait a minute...didn't we just have a topic about this??? See: https://ipvm.com/reports/integrator-websites

John - I agree with you and I believe over time Websites, resources (tutorials, etc.), remote support, etc. will continue to improve. It's not just about reducing the sales team but improving the engagement with our customers/partners. Some of this is Operations, Sales and Marketing. Yes, I'm biased but I completely disagree with the premise of the article referenced above but do respect the groups that do business exclusively by word of mouth.

I'll share a story with you and whereas it may be apples to oranges, our marketplace is changing. Back at the beginning of my professional career, I worked for a company called LookSmart from 1999 - 2002 and we used to power the search results for MSN.com (now Bing) and others. LookSmart's value proposition was creating the largest index of the internet by using human editors. At the time, if my memory serves me correct, there were over 100 editors. At our peak, we had over 2,000,000 listings that were hand written by editors which was very impressive. I was the first to sell an SEO campaign for my company for Proflowers and the rest is history.

During this time a company by the name of Google came in to meet with our executives for some funding and whereas our CEO and senior management had it right, search will be big and as it was further adopted, would be a major player in advertising, our strategy to implement it was wrong. Clearly Google had the last laugh and most companies including LookSmart, Excite, Lycos, Metacrawler, Ask.com, Dogpile and others are either no longer around or are a pimple on Google's rear.

Finishing up, I've been in our industry for 8+ years and have owned a business in our space for 7+ years and I don't profess to know everything and do respect others that came before me but those that fail to recognize whether it be Manufacturers, service provides, Integrators and Dealers are in for a rude awakening. As leaders of our respective businesses, we need to understand trends and how they positively or negatively impact our businesses.

Cheers!

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Ari Erenthal

Chesapeake & Midlantic

This seems to imply that Ring paid Shaq in stock, not cash (or not just cash), a move that paid off big time when Amazon bought Ring for a gazillion dollars.

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John Honovich

IPVM

In reply to Ari Erenthal

Good video!

Lol, at 5:50, he says he got a quote for $40,000 for home surveillance system, then got Ring...

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Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

"Our ADI regional rep is incredible and I would follow him anywhere. If he went to the worst manufacturer in the world I would find something to buy from him. Bought myself $2,000 worth of Cutco knives the other day because I liked the kid who was selling them."

So relationship selling is still important and does work. The Internet may provide fulfillment, but I am not sure that it can replace good communications skills that require understanding and solving a customer's issues.

I frankly think that automation may replace workers in many production spaces, but people still but from people, IMHO.

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John Bazyk

In reply to Undisclosed Manufacturer #2

Command Corporation • IPVMU Certified

I'm not disputing that people are important, just where those people are. As an integrator, you've got to have people on the ground. While there are a lot of big companies that don't, I think it's really important to be face to face with customers. When it comes to manufacturers, I think people on the ground are less important. As I mentioned earlier, I think having a strong inside sales force and great online tools are more valuable. Most of the reps that come by almost always end up referring me to their inside sales team.

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Damith Jayasinghe

some of the manufacturers need to move their operations to Vietnam etc away from China atleast.

Or over to OZ lol Our wages are even higher than the states but hay we have room.

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Undisclosed Integrator #4

Manufacturing in America for most mass market products is a dead proposition. The expected wages are simply too high especially when unions get involved. You can pay a Chinese laborer $20 per DAY instead of per hour.

Until THAT changes you will never see an American manufacturer be cost competitive.

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David Morgan